YTSEJAM Digest 3275
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
by someone@prognosis.com
2) Retort
by Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
3) free agency stinks, eh?
by "Partha S. Mukhopadhyay" <pmukhop@med.wayne.edu>
4) Last input to 'chicks' / Chaos theory...
by Luke <slslb@winshop.com.au>
5) Maturity
by Murmer <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
6) That review, the hierarchy, response
by Murmer <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
7) BMS
by "Andrew Moore" <a.s.moore@anglia.ac.uk>
8) Girls who kick ass. ..
by Banister <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
9) sports
by Banister <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
10) Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
by Mika Numminen <aarre.n@swipnet.se>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:27:26 +0000
From: someone@prognosis.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
Message-ID: <199711220823.AAA11730@odin.ax.com>
> I don't think there is any such thing as "overplaying."
I don't think you've heard enough of the Shrapnel Music catalog :)
I think that when people say 'overplaying' they're referring to
someone showing off, where it does nothing to further the music. If
you don't think that the musicians should work together to better the
quality of their music (in their own minds, at least), then there's
no way I can find anything to discuss with you in this topic.
> extreme example: Suppose there is a slow piano ballad like Anna Lee, and in
> the middle the guitarist breaks into the quintuplet passage from Erotomania
> (in the appropriate key). Is this overplaying? Well, your *expectations* may
> define it as such, since you expect to hear a cohesive, slow moving ballad
> with a "tasteful", uplifting guitar solo. But what really matters is what the
> artist is trying to say with the music. If the artist is trying to create a
> sense of jarring, furious activity in the middle of this ballad, then his
> playing is perfectly creating the desired effect - and it is not overplaying.
Perfect. That is all I need. In this "AnnaMania," if we felt it
was overplaying, we could then go so far as to ask the band what they
were trying to achieve. If they weren't going for a jarring effect,
but were trying to fit the mood of the song, then might we be
justified in saying it's overplaying? Sometimes people feel the need
to stuff everything they can into every song. Sometimes people just
want to show off. There are a lot of factors that go into the final
resulting "song," beyond the artist's initial intent.
I think the writer of the bass player article may have just been
more conservative than you or me... I don't hear any of what I would
consider 'overplaying' on Falling Into Infinity; but though his
opinion is shared with more people than yours or mine, he's not
obligated to pad it to make anyone feel better. You wouldn't either,
would you?
I promise, no more from me tonight! I swear!
> It is merely the listener who doesn't like the way the song has developed (and
> is quite entitled not to like it).
>
> I'd love to hear people's comments, especially in relation to DT music or
> "prog" in general.
>
> Incidentally, I would imagine that this "overplaying" is what attracts many of
> us to DT's music. Given that, I feel that it simply adds a sense of energy
> and excitement to the music which many of us find appealing and the reviewer
> in BP magazine does not.
>
> cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:35:58 +1000
From: Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Retort
Message-ID: <l03020902b09c5497fc29@[131.217.133.76]>
>No, this is NOT the unplugged version..
>This is the Studio Track.
I hereby apologise for not being well-versed in Queensryche. I was simply
making the observation that this track existed in one form or another, I
don't believe I stated it *definitely* was the unplugged version.
>wow, thats a great reason...you sure know how to support
>an arguement. Anyway, I would consider them progressive.
>Not only does their style change from album to album,
>but it usually changes from song to song
Yes, true. I still don't see that as progressive.
Perhaps my main reasoning in saying neither bands were not progressive, is
because if you told them, they'd most likely spit in your face. :-)
John Zorn is someone who if he didn't do something different each
album/song would probably wither and die, yet I don't see how ANYONE could
call JOhn Zorn a progressive artist.
Perhaps my conclusoin rests in the term 'progressive' being linked to
'rock'. I don't see Mr. Bungle as a rock band, I think Faith No more have
largely transcended being a rock band, and John Zorn's closest effort to a
rock band would probably be Naked City. I could chart the differences in
Naked City alone, from the self-titled release, through to Absinthe, but
that doesn't mean they're progressive.
>actually, thats the only thing that hasn't pissed me off.
Then I didn't fail to disappoint.
Geez.......
>I've probably seen at least 10 setlists posted hear
>in the last week... I even think the last jam had one.
Yes, as have I, I've also seen some posters specifically state they were
not going to post the set-list.
My request was not "where the fuck are all the set-lists", but to ask those
who were not posting them simply to do so, I know there've been requests
not to post set-lists, because people don't want their DT concert
experience somewhat ruined becase they could almost predict the set-list in
advance.
I was simply enforcing the other side, pointing out that some of us won't
see the tour at all, due to living in the decrepid bowels of the earth, and
as such, we're interested in seeing the set-lists.
So let's see, you're pissed off because:
-I stated 'Scarborough Fair' was on a Cassingle, and it's not the Unplugged
version.
-I said FNM and Mr. Bungle were not prog.
-I asked for set-lists to be posted.
Well:
-As I said, my knowledge in Queensryche is not all-extensive, through a
choice being made on my behalf. I'm sorry I may have raised your hopes in
this track being released only to cruelly shatter them.
-Faith No More, to me, are not a Progressive rock band. YES, they progress,
but I believe it falls outside the realm of progressive rock (which IS
different to progression). There would be many a Dream Theater fan who
probably likes Faith No More, and great, but I believe they come from a
TOTALLY different world to Dream Theater, and this is easily apparent in
their influences alone.
-Mr. Bungle, to me, are again not Progressive rock. AGAIN, this band has
obviously progressed between their two studio albums, but I do not hear
'rock music', especially on 'Disco Volante'.
These two bands would perhaps not appeal to a large number of people, if
you told them they were prog. I'm simply making this apparent. Whether you
wish to define them as prog is your belief, perhaps this is mine, but
whereas Dream Theater would quite happily sit with the 'prog.' tag, Mr.
Bungle and Faith No More, would not.
Odd time signatures is NOT the definition of prog., as some people sem to
be suggesting. how can it be? Perhaps this is the most common bond between
DT, FNM and Mr.B.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:05:42 -0500 (EST)
From: "Partha S. Mukhopadhyay" <pmukhop@med.wayne.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: free agency stinks, eh?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.971122035515.14190C-100000@moose>
> I'll be wearing a New York Rangers "white" jersey with Sergei Zubov's
> #21 in case anyone wants to share a beer or two at the show - Chung in
> NYC
Zubov? the guy I (think I) watched tonight on tv playing for dallas?
and now federov is about to demand a trade.....sheesh.........
anyway.........overplaying is an odd term.........
I made a comment two or three days ago as to how Dennis Chambers is now my
Drum God, and how he displaced Mark Zonder........Mike Portnoy might be up
there, but when I saw him play, I got more the impression of "POWER"....
Chambers and Zonder impressed me more as being in total control of their
environment.......that might be the circumstances under which i saw
McLauglin, Fates and DT, what with Portnoy's huge kit blocking out the
view, but it's the only impression I got to go with......
with that impression, even the same drum hits could be overwhelmed by that
feeling of "power", and lead to another impression....Portnoy is going so
far all out, he's over doing it.....Zonder/Chambers: same rhythms,
perhaps, but they weren't killing themselves or their drums to do it, they
weren't OVERdoing it.........
just an impression, and written out at 3:30 am, sorry for
incoherency.......feel free to disagree.......just don't be a dick about
it, or I'll have to flatte.......oh, wait, that's been used already....
Partha Mukhopadhyay, Macho Ytsejam Donkey Wrestler
(anyone watch Newsradio? know what that refers to? One of the funniest
sitcom episodes I've ever seen, up there with the Drew Carey fart show)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:54:05 +1000
From: Luke <slslb@winshop.com.au>
To: ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Last input to 'chicks' / Chaos theory...
Message-ID: <3476ABBD.D2F@winshop.com.au>
> BTW, I'm a chick who got most of my guy friends into OFB, thank you
> very much...who says that girls don't have ny taste?! ;*)
Definately not me. In fact I'm glad to see a post like this. Good for
you, you know you're always welcome in Australia.... :-]
Also, what's happening with Chaos Theory ?
Dr. Mosh, do you know ? I got that mp3 of the demo and it f**ken rocks.
The opening instrumental shows big promise for these guys. I've only
been this impressed once before when I heard a band, an that time was
when I first heard DT. Anyone who hasn't heard it yet, GET IT NOW !
BTW, is it true the band are changing their name because it's already
taken ? (Me senses similarities with OFB).
Until the eleventh hour calls....
Luke.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 05:32:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Murmer <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Maturity
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971122050403.29696A-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
> From: someone@prognosis.com
> Subject: Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0)
> Musical maturity is an evolving state (e.g. if you are maturing, you
> are changing for the better) which encompasses (A.) phrasing, (B.)
<snip snip. . .>
> Petrucci" where I don't think I could do that back when Images and
> Words came out, because Petrucci sounded like many other players.
<whoops! Still going.. . snip snip>
> responses in private or public mail. Since I didn't flame anyone, if
> you have a gripe with this post, please bring it directly to me.
>
> Cool?
Ahhh. . there we go. That was a helluva long post, Chris. .. and not
too fiery, either. Cool. I don't really mean to single your post out,
either. . . just happened to be the most recent one on topic.. I'm
not really going to respond to it. My question is: why do we care so much
about this?
Let's think about it. DT (through Petrucci) has called their
album more 'mature' than their previous efforts. Why do people take such
offense to this? I think we're all operating under an assumption that
immaturity is a bad thing. We hear that DT indirectly calls their old
material 'immature' and all the sudden we (some of us) get all defensive.
But what is bad about it? Through Chris' definitions, I see no reason why
a piece of music that's 'mature' is any better than one that's 'immature.'
I like IAW better than FII. Well, yeah. When I first heard
Petrucci say that FII was more mature, I though "no way. . this guy's
going back on oldschool DT. . selling out!" But then, maybe by
conventional definition, FII is more mature. The songs are more defined,
there's less overplaying (I'm so desensitized to overplaying from WDADU
and IAW... I don't see any at all on FII!), and they seem to be
approaching songwriting in a refined manner. But then, now that they're
mature, do I have to like the album more? Nah. . . that's kinda silly. I
like certain things about DTs 'immaturity' . . the way MP would play with
a beat on WDADU, creating polyrythmic feels, crazy assed fills all over
the place. . . I loved that. That's an aspect that I really miss on
FII... It seems DT has grown older, wiser, and more mature, even.
But then again, that doesn't matter at all to me. I've prided
myself on being immature for a while now. And not mentally immature,
where I become defensive and flame every post that disagrees with me
(heh.. only some of them), but immature in that I can still play like a
kid. I still feel very young inside (well, it's easy I guess. . i'm only
20!), and can do without shame a lot of things that more 'mature' people
wont do. I'm not affraid to toy with a beat, or change time sigs every
measure in a drum part, even if it fucks anyone who listens up. It's fun.
So really, so what if DT is more mature, and so what if people
call them that? It doesn't mean that they've betrayed us, the loyal IAW
fans. It means that they've moved in a musical direction. You're free to
judge what you like and what you don't like, but don't like something
because it's mature, or dislike DT for the same reason. I have a feeling
that I'll continue to like IAW above further DT releases. . however, maybe
when I'm 30, that will change. Everyone grows old, and maybe as I grow
older, I'll look at DTs older material as they do now... Maybe I'll look
at my own material in the same way. Maybe at that point I'll have given
up on flash and ability, and gone for incredible songwriting (not that my
songwriting isn't amazing right now ;) Who knows...
So why discuss the maturity of something? Why not just like it or
dislike it?
aach. . .
figuratively,
Rich
P.S. This post has probably gone against anything I've posted about in
the past. But that's okay, I guess.
P.P.S Yes, it's 5:30 in the morning. Why am I up? Kahn. Just got
Kahn, and it's rockin. . . anybody wanna deathmatch me? ;)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 05:43:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Murmer <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: That review, the hierarchy, response
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971122002854.27685A-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
> [2. I would bet that DT was NOT influenced by Boston, U2 or
> Soundgarden, and their Led Zeppelin influence is relatively minimal.]
I dunno. . .I remember hearing that the band members were fans of all
types of music. And whatever you hear (and like) influences you,
consciously or not. . .
> Jovi. The quintet's "Falling Into Infinity" also has strong prog-rock
> tendencies, as demonstrated by a three-part, 13-minute suite called "Trial
HAHAHAHAHA!!! "strong prog-rock tendancies" yeah, whatever. We all know
that DT has _nothing_ to do with prog-rock! hehe. . . that's like saying
"Charles Manson seemed to display some violent tendancies" or "Cats tend
to have some strong feline tendencies" or even "Rich tends to show some
long-winded tendencies" ... okay I'll shut up now. . .
> of Tears." While singer James Labrie (sic) proclaims a "New Millennium,"
> the music doesn't do anything at all new.
this is the same guy who goes home and pops in the new Bush CD. ..
> PHOTO CAPTION: "Dream Theater's dramatic license: much ado about nothing."
OUCH. Well, I'll never listen to them again!
heh heh. . oh yeah, mr. high and mighty reviewer? Well I'd like to see
you do better! Yeah. . . I sometimes wonder if people really read my
posts... I know I don't...
> >Okay newbies, here's the Heirarchy:
> >
> >GOD ==> MARY ==> THE POPE ==> SKADZ ==> D-MAN ==>
> >DR. MOSH ==> MIKE BAHR ==> ALL OF US PEONS
yeah, but didn't one of us kill Mary, and the Holy ghost? Job well done,
if you ask me...
> > less example filled definition? Or why not
> > if (you_like_it){ you_like_it };
>
> Well, sure....I certainly don't think we should let labels such as "prog"
> determine whether we like something or not. If you think it sounds good,
> listen to it, and worry about what to call it later. Or not at all. But
> you seem to be implying here that "prog" is just another term for "music
> I like", which isn't at all what I was trying to say.
didn't mean to imply that all of us like all prog, or whatever, just
saying 'transcend the boundaries of labels' (which is probably what DT
should do!). . . or something. All I meant to say with that was, why
bother labeling something, when all you really need to know about it is
whether you like it or not? I know that I've heard some prog before, and
just didn't like it (at least at first). .. so why feel obligated? Or
maybe that's not what I was trying to say at all. Who knows? I don't...
whatever. I'm on crack.
> All too literally,
maybe a little _too_ literally! Or maybe not. Why am I still writing
this?
figuratively,
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:47:09 -0000
From: "Andrew Moore" <a.s.moore@anglia.ac.uk>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: BMS
Message-ID: <01bcf733$fbaddec0$4e2d53c2@btc-pc1.abs.anglia.ac.uk>
Jeff wrote:
>Okay, I've seen a number of people saying that they can't hear a connection
>between and HK and any other songs on the album, and so far I haven't seen
>anyone say otherwise, but there is in fact a small connection between HK
and
>Burning My Soul. Listen to the chord progression and melodies in the last
verse
>of BMS ("Using your words...") and then listen to the very beginning of HK,
the
>part with the keyboards (and guitar?) playing octaves. It's the same thing!
I
>realize this is only a small connection, but it goes a long way towards
explain-
>ing how these two songs could have been connected before, especially for
someone
>like myself who has never heard the original BMS.
The intro to HK is the original intro to BMS. That's what put's me off the
new BMS, I think the old intro fitted *much* better, more immediate and
in-your-face, rather than the build up they have now (IMO).
I still like the new version, but I PREFER the old one.
Any more news on the fan club CD contents? Or is it a big secret? When
someone said there would be 75 mins of material on it I immediately thought
it would be a live set (possibly Providence 17th Oct. 97, the hour-long
set). This would be cool, especially since the band have talked about
releasing something live soon (or would like to). I'm probably way off the
mark though. Oh well, I can only hope.
Still looking forward to 9th Dec.,
Andy.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Moore, IT Adviser
Anglia Business School,
Anglia Polytechnic University,
Cambridge, UK
Tel: 01223 363771 ext. 2250
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:51:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Banister <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Girls who kick ass. ..
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971122054328.1156A-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
Sorry I'm back so soon. . . just figured I'd finish off my train of
thought before I went to bed... Notice how this has nothing to do at all
with any previous post of mine. Shows you a little something about my
train of thought, eh?
Deedlit:
>
> Hehe...I also like Meredith Brooks, so what can I say. However, I prefer
> heavier stuff.
that's beautiful. . . don't know if I've ever met a girl who's said
anything close to that...
> I shocked the hell out of some fellow college-mates who wanted to hear me
> play guitar last weekend...they were totally impressed. (Only because I
> was rare, IMO...I suck...that WAS NOT a personal plug. Anyone who knows me
> can verify I have no self esteem)
It's plagued me ever since I've been playing... I've been here
at college for about 4 months (this year, at least), and I still have to
keep the door closed when I'm playing. I have such a hard time opening up
to people that way. Very self-conscious. .. bad. But as I get better, I
find I'm more comfortable playing in front of people... and when those
people are blown away, that's an incredible feeling. Then I can play in
front of them freely. . . and then they start to get sick of me and smash
my guitar into little tiny pieces. :[ and the viscous cycle starts
again...
Drain STH:
> them from someone from Sweden. They kick SOOOO much ass live. I talked to
> the guitarist, actually. She was really kewl.
I was checking out some Net sites on them. . .(most of the site admins are
obsessed with them, and not for their technical prowess (well, not on
instruments, at least. . .;) The more I hear them, the more they look
really interesting. Not only are they a band full of girls, but they're a
band full of girls that completely rocks! They kick 'M's ass, anyday...
Next time I'm out shopping I'll try and grab the CD (which may be
tonight... hehe)
> I tend to listen to more modern stuff, but I have nothing against the
> Bangles, so don't start testosterone-flaming me ;)
I flamed once, I learned my lesson. There's a lot more to be said for
intelligent argument than arrogant flamage... and I'd rather make friends
than enemies. ..
But in this case I'll make an exception. How dare you insult the
Bangles! Your musical narrow-mindedness makes me sick to my stomach! I.
aw forget it. My hearts not in it. ..
BTW, anybody know if they played their own instruments? Everyone
I know says no, but I have faith in them!
re: John Petrucci
> HAHAHAHA!!!! All I can say is, I have YET to meet him, but I really
> think I would die to talk to him for a little while. I also play the oboe,
> and I have to talk to him about relaxation/performing...someday.....
I have to talk to him about becoming a student... I would _kill_ to study
with Petrucci (No joke, man! Hey John, if there's anybody you need taken
care of, anybody at all, I can help you out. Record label getting you
down? Give me a name, man. Just give me name!)
re: time sigs
> 7/8 is fun...even Alice In Chains used it on at least ONE entire song
> (with the obvious exception of the chorus).... (for those of you who
> forget, it was "Them Bones.")
mmmm. . .the tension. The best song ever written in 7 (hehe. .
whatta statement) has to be Kansas's "Miracles out of Nowhere". . . the
middle section of that song is simply the most incredible thing... it
makes me want to get up and. . . I don't know what. But thinking about
it gives me a warm happy feeling inside, and makes me hold my hand back as
I reach for the CD rack.. . . Cool assed song. . . even if it is about
some religious bullshit (whoops. . .maybe I went too far)
(I still think 'Dirt' is one of the all time classic albums, though.
at least in my CD collection. AIC really pushed the boundaries of
alternative grunge type rock... Time sigs being one of those boundaries.
It was really refreshing to see a band utilize a taboo tool like that
(soundgarden is the only other mainstream band that I can think of that
really used them as well. Superunknown was great that way). Vocal
harmonies on that album are beautiful. . disturbing, but beautiful...
Harmonies are one thing I wish DT would utilize more...)
Don't quite know why that paragraph is in parentheses. ..
> guess.... :p It comes from being trapped in this shitty school with all
> these neo-hippies, I think.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
HAHAHAHA!! Been there... isn't frustrating when no one understands you?
I just don't think most people here realize the stress relief potential of
Obituary (If I ever hear "I don't wanna wait..for our lives to be over"
after an exam, I swear I'll go into a frenzy). I hope my hall likes
Machine Head, because there's only one 'loud hour' during finals, and I
intend to use it!!
Alright. . .I've plagued the jam enough tonight (this morning). Sorry for
my long windedness. . .
figuratively,
Rich
P.S. Does anyone know if John McLaughlin has any tour dates in Boston
coming up? I missed him in philly (in a sweet venue, too!) because my
freakin school doesn't believe in Thanksgiving breaks...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:54:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Banister <rbaniste@emerald.tufts.edu>
To: Rasberry YtseJam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: sports
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971122065119.1156B-100000@emerald.tufts.edu>
Thought you could get rid of me, eh? Just a quick note. . .
I believe Mike Bahr asked about DT and sports. . . I think John Petrucci
used to play soccer, although I'm not sure about exactly what level he
played on... I remember reading a Guitar World column once where he
mentioned doing 'Indian runs' as practice for soccer, and relating that to
guitar method. . .
--the end, for now--
figuratively,
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:21:27
From: Mika Numminen <aarre.n@swipnet.se>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Overplaying? What exactly is a "song"?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19971122142127.2eb70d1e@bamse.swip.net>
At 17.32 1997-11-21 -0800, Clark wrote:
>
<snip>
>I've taken issue with this in the past; I happen to think that it's a bunch
>of bullshit. But my question is this: to all of you who said that (that the
>shorter, poppier, simpler, and supposedly less "wanky" songs on FII are more
>mature than DT's previous work), how come I don't remember anyone ever
>complaining about this before FII came out? Maybe it's just my bad
memory, but
>I don't recall seeing too many posts last year that said "You know, I like
>I&W and Awake, but I really feel that DT's songwriting is somewhat immature."
>I guess this is why I and some others were so skeptical when people starting
>saying this, and yes, why it seemed to me that people would have said they
>liked anything that DT did.
You know, you hit your nail on the head here, but to me the whole thing
with people saying it's more mature, for me, is people desperatly trying
not to get into the whole "sell-out" stuff.
What I mean is that there are so many people who have become such fans
of DT that they are really defensive when it comes to matters of
criticising DT. We all know what has happened here on the jam when certain
bands "matured" in their songwriting (ie Met****ca and Queensryche) and
released new records, and started writing more poppier and main-stream
songs (and more "mature").
I'm not saying anything about not liking FII, I'm one of those who like
it though it's IMHO sub-standard to everything DT has done earlier, and I
like Quennsryche's new one too!
Again this is all IMHO. Opinions anyone?
- Mika Numminen - aarre.n@swipnet.se - http://www.hgs.se/~te95mne -
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3275
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