YTSEJAM Digest 4793
Today's Topics:
1) Wait fuh Sleep
by "Andrew Fors" <afors@btigate.com>
2) Air Force One
by "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
3) Keyboard wizardry
by Sami Poimala <spoimala@st.jyu.fi>
4) Fw: INFORMACION IMPORTANTE
by "Duran/Pulgar" <ldbp@rivernet.com.au>
5) tribal tech and other stuff
by Joanathan Beziz <danjohn@club-internet.fr>
6) Re: "Close Encounters" guitar effects
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
7) Re: DT in Korea (Part 2)
by MTeiper@aol.com
8) Re: DT In Korea
by MTeiper@aol.com
9) Re: The DAO problem solved/Watch out for Philips!!!
by James Pepe <jpepe@typhoon.lightning.net>
10) QR-OM
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@yahoo.com>
11) Re: cd's being cut off
by MentalHunk@aol.com
12) JP
by "Jason Barden" <jbarden@usdbs2.usdb.k12.ut.us>
13) Re: JP
by Frank Benenati <fmb@frontierlogic.com>
14) Re: Queensryche
by Diablo6491@aol.com
15) Re: Burning, Learning to Wait for SLeep
by Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
16) Evil infected nazi virii.
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
17) Re: more prog arguments.
by Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
18) Queensryche's progressive history
by Brian Hansen <bhansen10@yahoo.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:27:22 -0700
From: "Andrew Fors" <afors@btigate.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Wait fuh Sleep
Message-ID: <199904081016.FAA22151@london.btigate.com>
> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 01:34:48 -0400
> From: Brian Larkin <ambicwts@mail.ptd.net>
> To: ytsejam@axnet.net
> Subject: Wait to Breathe, Ee Rot Oh May Knee Uh.
> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990408013448.00abf4a0@postoffice.ptd.net>
>
>
> Jammuhs,
>
> > For 10 points what other DT song repeats that WFS theme intentionally
> >(probably) or not?
I know Learning to Live does, and Just Let me Breathe does, and
AFAIK, that's it.
---------------------
Earn Money to surf the Web!
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-----------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:27:22 -0700
From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Air Force One
Message-ID: <E04FDFCFDC87D21194D300A0C9D4BAFA0F3F11@ms.kallback.com>
> John Parmet wrote:
> >I'll pay Al, the Ytseprogtologist, $20 Million to build his own
> studio
> >on Air Force One.
> I'd do it $10 million as long as the Clinton clan is elsewhere.
>
"Please return all flight attendents to upright positions." :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:40:57 +0300 (EEST)
From: Sami Poimala <spoimala@st.jyu.fi>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Keyboard wizardry
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9904081338390.16070-100000@itu.st.jyu.fi>
Hi all keyboardists!
Has anyone ordered the Jordan Rudess video? Is it worth buying?
And is the Mediusvision a reliable company?
Peace,
*------------------------+-+----------------------+*
*| Sami Poimala |*|**********************|*
*+-----------------------+*|* Dream Theater *|*
*| spoimala@st.jyu.fi |*|*www.dreamtheater.net*|*
*| www.jyu.fi/~spoimala |*+----------------------+*
*+-----------------------+*|* Uriah Heep *|*
*|University of Jyv=E4skyl=E4|*|* www.uriah-heep.com *|*
*+-----------------------+-+----------------------+*
HOT: www.jyu.fi/~spoimala/clarity/thex.htm
The piece of today:
New Millennium
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:53:00 +1000
From: "Duran/Pulgar" <ldbp@rivernet.com.au>
To: "ZAMUDIO Arturo" <azamudio@hotmail.com>, "YTSEJAM" <ytsejam@axnet.net>,
Subject: Fw: INFORMACION IMPORTANTE
Message-ID: <00cf01be81b6$b4712ee0$7de758cb@ld-bp>
-----Original Message-----
]From: Charles Simmons <cls2@ven.net>
To: 'Alejandro Zamora' <zamoraa@pdvsa.com>; 'Bela Nemeth'
<bnemeth@globalp.com>; 'Bernardo' <ldbp@rivernet.com.au>; 'Carlos
Bermudez' <bermudez.c@pg.com>; 'Carlos Boulton' <cboulton@aol.com>;
'Carlos Marquez' <carlos_teacher@yahoo.com>; 'Charlie Simmons'
<clsenergy1@aol.com>; 'C-Milagros' <cmg@venezuela.sun.com>;
'ftmaritima' <ftmaritima@mail1.lat.net>; 'Gisela Pulgar'
<gisela.holmgren@stockholm.jacwid.se>; 'Gordon Neville'
<cachi@telcel.net.ve>; 'Hector Hernandez' <slop6@mm.pdv.com>; 'Hector
Rodriguez' <rodriguezhe@pdvsa.com>
Cc: 'Jorge Canizares' <qvar@gye.satnet.net>; 'Jose Monsalve'
<josem@ve.ibm.com>; 'Leonardo Baquero' <copf1@mm.pdv.com>; 'Luis G.
Gomez' <copf3@mm.pdv.com>; 'Manuel Castillo' <castillomn@pdvsa.com>;
'Mariela Grimaldi' <grimaldim@pdvsa.com>; 'Mayu y Luis'
<mayuyluis@cantv.net>; 'Miguel A. Acosta' <macosta@venoco.com>;
'Miguel Palaviccini' <palaviccinimr@bv.com>; 'Oswaldo Ponce'
<ponceo@pdvsa.com>; 'Roberto Finocchi' <copf2@mm.pdv.com>; 'Rosa
Rodriguez' <rrodrig@venoco.com>; 'Veronica' <v.pulgar@rocketmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 4:27 AM
Subject: FW: INFORMACION IMPORTANTE
>HOLA AMIGOS !
>Por favor tengan mucho cuidado con esto.
>Saludos,
>Raiza Vale
>
>Aviso : VIRUS NA RED
>
>>> Aviso de nuevo virus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Existe un nuevo virus en forma de E-mail corriendo por la red, se
>llama A.I.D.S. VIRUS. Destruye la memoria, tarjeta de sonido,
cornetas y
>disco,
>infecta el Mouse y teclado, cuando se typea los caracteres No salen
en
>Pantalla. Afortunadamente el virus se auto-destruye, pero despues de
>haberse comido 5MB de disco duro y haber borrado todos los
ejecutables.
>El Virus, viene en forma de e-mail y su titulo es
>OPEN:VERYCOOL!:"
>Borrar de inmediato.
>Por favor. Reenvia esta nota de advertencia a todos quienes tu creas
>conveniente.
> >>> SI RECIBEN E-MAILS TITULADOS "JOIN THE CREW" NO LOS
>ABRAN.
>ESTOS BORRARAN TODO LO QUE EXISTA EN EL DISCO DURO DEL COMPUTADOR.
HAY
> QUE ENVIARLE ESTE MENSAJE URGENTEMENTE A TANTA GENTE COMO SEA
POSIBLE,
> ESTE ES UN VIRUS NUEVO, MALICIOSO Y POCO GENTE SABE ACERCA DE EL.
ESTA
>INFORMACION FUE ANUNCIADA AYER EN LA MANANA POR IBM. POR FAVOR,
>COMPARTIRLA CON CUALQUIERA QUE PUEDA TENER ACCESO A INTERNET.
>Se despide desde Cuba
>Leandro Smith Mendez
>Un amigo de Cuba.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:45:19 +0200
From: Joanathan Beziz <danjohn@club-internet.fr>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: tribal tech and other stuff
Message-ID: <370CA4DF.21090480@club-internet.fr>
Hi jammers,
could anyone tell me about a band called tribal tech (albums, members
.) ? A man at a DT gig in june 98 told it was a jazz version of DT,
and some posts a few digests ago reminded me of that band .
"There are also the one or other well known tunes picked up e.g.
Voices=Star
Wars Soundtrack, Petrucci Solo=Tarantella..."
What's that Star Wars thing ? Still about OIAL there's also the
percussion part of the middle of the "the trees"(Rush) in the
beginning of TOT .
The left hand of WFS is : EDBE EDBE EDBE EE CGA CGD AAD EF#GF#E(i don't
if that's we call the black key between F and G).It took me several
month to be able to play it well with th right hand that does : BBAB B
BBAB B BBAB B DECAB CAB EC BCAB EC GAF#GBF#EADB !
That's all for now
Joanthan Beziz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:03:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Re: "Close Encounters" guitar effects
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990408085309.5820A-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, mjt wrote:
> Don't forget the close encounters bit in Trial of Tears... Perhaps it's a
> John Williams thing?
>
> And as stupid as I know this is going to sound, what exactly is it that
> makes the sound? Is it an effect on the guitar? Does he play it
> differently? It sounds rather like they've stuck in the sounds and then
> played it backwards...
That's one of those neat-o effects I love on the guitar because it sounds
SO great yet it's SO (well, it takes a LITTLE practice) easy to do. All
he's doing is playing the note then turning up the volume on the guitar.
That way the attack is lost and all you hear is the sustain of the note.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Coutermarsh
a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu
http://cout.dhs.org/
_Cloak on IRC
ICQ: 2513441
-------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not
for you.
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:06:17 EDT
From: MTeiper@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: DT in Korea (Part 2)
Message-ID: <f9bdae7a.243e03c9@aol.com>
> Okay, I found it. Thanks, Mike. My bad! :-) Funny how the string
"Korea" did not > appear in that article when I did a site search... Hmmmm.
Ah well. So, what's the > deal with this show? Anyone know any more info
about it?
D'Oh!!! I meant Mark, not Mike. My bad again! Methinks it's time for some
breakfast...
- Matt T.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:03:54 EDT
From: MTeiper@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: DT In Korea
Message-ID: <9bd84c45.243e033a@aol.com>
In a message dated 4/8/99, 6:07:55 AM, ytsejam@ax.com writes:
<<> Okay, I searched all over UACM, and for the life of me, I can't find any
> mention of DT playing in Korea in June. I did a search on the site and
> everything. Where can this info be found?
>
> Thx... Matt T.
It's in the new interview with Jordan from Ghostland, I think.
Mark>>
Okay, I found it. Thanks, Mike. My bad! :-) Funny how the string "Korea"
did not appear in that article when I did a site search... Hmmmm. Ah well.
So, what's the deal with this show? Anyone know any more info about it?
L8R..... Matt T.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Pepe <jpepe@typhoon.lightning.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Re: The DAO problem solved/Watch out for Philips!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990408093611.26127A-100000@typhoon.lightning.net>
On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Luke Bateup wrote:
> the better Philips models with the pro-logic capabilities couldnt handle
> it. Other stereos in the store, such as Panasonic, Sony and even Teac
> and Sanyo, played the DAO disc without a problem. Philips was the only
> candidate.
The two second gaps do come at record time, and its not a matter of
writing disk-at-once. Yes, the laser turning on and off between tracks
can cause this to happen, but it is not the only reason. There is an
option in side Adaptec's CD Programs... BUrried WAAAAY back in there
somewhere... at the moment, I'm @ work and forget where.
Additionally, some CD Players' over sampling has shown to cause some
difficulties (either w/it or w/o)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@yahoo.com>
To: DT list <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: QR-OM
Message-ID: <19990408141842.27194.rocketmail@web118.yahoomail.com>
>From: "Newtz Brian J." <NEWTZBJ1@GCC.EDU>
>Ok...I've heard a couple of posts now about Queensryche's "Operation
>Mindcrime" and about how it is this awesome cd and everything, and I just
>have to say....what the hell are you people smoking??????? I made the
>mistake of buying it after hearing all you people rant and rave about it,
>and I have to say that it is the biggest waste of 10 dollars that I've ever
>spent. This is just a bunch of rehashed cock rock with Eddie Van Halen
>wannabe's on guitar. And the songs themself aren't anything special at all.
>And my lord...his singing made me cringe after listening for about 30
>seconds. I love DT and the stuff they put out, and to even compare DT with
>Queensryche is a slap in the face to DT. If I could rename the cd I would
>call it "Operation Mindcrap."
I think the majority on this list will say to you "what the hell are you
smoking". I have no clue where you get "cock rock" from this cd. For the
most part I am speechless how anyone can have your view. I do think you are
going way overboard in knocking the disc.
===
|----------------------------------------------------------------|
| Pat Daugherty Email: pdaugher@yahoo.com |
| Web : http://www.abs.net/~patnbeck/pat/pat.html |
|================================================================|
| "Every breath leaves me one less to my last" --Dream Theater |
|----------------------------------------------------------------|
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:52:16 EDT
From: MentalHunk@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: cd's being cut off
Message-ID: <a0e3e0e0.243e1ca0@aol.com>
In a message dated 99-04-08 00:20:09 EDT, you write:
<< Burning CD's, ends being cut off:
How long are the source CDs? It's my understanding that CD-Rs do not hold
as much data as a pressed CD. If the last tracks on each CD are being cut
off, maybe you're out of room?
~Chris >>
This happens also with 25 minute maxi-cd's , so no.....
plenty of room left ......and they supposedly hold 650 mb , none of these
where near the end....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:06:59 -0600
From: "Jason Barden" <jbarden@usdbs2.usdb.k12.ut.us>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: JP
Message-ID: <B0000019633@usdbweb.usdb.k12.ut.us>
>
> And as stupid as I know this is going to sound, what exactly is it that
> makes the sound? Is it an effect on the guitar? Does he play it
> differently? It sounds rather like they've stuck in the sounds and then
> played it backwards...
I'm not a guitarist but if you are refering to the Star Wars lick, I think
it's a volume swell. I believe you do this with the volume as low as it
goes, pick the note, then bring the volume up. Kind of a violin type sound.
Jason
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:20:23 -0400
From: Frank Benenati <fmb@frontierlogic.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: JP
Message-ID: <370CC937.A30EE6EF@frontierlogic.com>
Jason Barden wrote:
>
> I'm not a guitarist but if you are refering to the Star Wars lick, I think
> it's a volume swell. I believe you do this with the volume as low as it
> goes, pick the note, then bring the volume up. Kind of a violin type sound.
He probably didn't even pick the note. It sounds like he did hammer-ons.
-MojoMan
/\ /\
\_\/_/
/ _ _ \
|\ \(*)(*)/ /|
#-----------------OOO- \oo/--OOO------------#
# Frank Benenati - fmb@frontierlogic.com #
# "Some of the nicest people are dogs" #
# - Richard Dean Anderson #
#__________________________ooo______________#
ooo (_)
(_)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:37:09 EDT
From: Diablo6491@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: Queensryche
Message-ID: <3241909e.243e2725@aol.com>
In a message dated 4/8/99 12:20:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ytsejam@ax.com
writes:
<<
Ok...I've heard a couple of posts now about Queensryche's "Operation
Mindcrime" and about how it is this awesome cd and everything, and I just
have to say....what the hell are you people smoking??????? I made the
mistake of buying it after hearing all you people rant and rave about it,
and I have to say that it is the biggest waste of 10 dollars that I've ever
spent. This is just a bunch of rehashed cock rock with Eddie Van Halen
wannabe's on guitar. And the songs themself aren't anything special at all.
And my lord...his singing made me cringe after listening for about 30
seconds. I love DT and the stuff they put out, and to even compare DT with
Queensryche is a slap in the face to DT. If I could rename the cd I would
call it "Operation Mindcrap." >>
Um, this is really harsh. I mean first of all, the lyrics are
amazing, the story line is great, and if you think Geoff Tates voice is
annoying and screechy, I'd hate to see waht you think of James Labrie's voice
on "Voices". Bottom line is that it isnt for everyone obviously, some people
appreciate it, others dont. QueensRyche is a great group, there just not for
you...
RaY
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:36:56 -0500
From: Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: Burning, Learning to Wait for SLeep
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19990408163656.006e3df8@pi-r-squared.com>
At 05:36 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>WFS/LTL:
>
>>>I didn't see it mentioned, but having all kind of freaks on the jam, I'm
>>>sure I'm not the only one who noticed it ! :)
>>>On LtL, DT play the main theme of "Wait For Sleep" for a moment!
>
>Just to be really precise: The whole of Wait for Sleep is based on part of
>Learning To Live. The story i heard is that they wanted to do a piano
>"intro" to LTL based on that part, and it mutated into a whole short song.
That's what I used to think too. But in interviews with Kevin, (you can read
the quotes in the faq) he says that Wait for Sleep is not lyrically,
thematically, or conceptually linked to LTL at all. It's one of those things
that just happened I guess.
Palpatine
Co Founder of Pi-R-Squared productions: www.pi-r-squared.com
"Thank God I'm an aetheist" -Luis Bunel
"What an incredible smell you've discovered" -Han Solo, Star Wars: A New Hope
"Perhaps god gave the answers to those with nothing to say"- Savatage:
Somewhere in time
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:35:40 -0600
From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
To: <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Evil infected nazi virii.
Message-ID: <006c01be81de$0ca33d20$0201010a@chuck>
>llama A.I.D.S. VIRUS. Destruye la memoria, tarjeta de sonido,
Heh. I didn't know computers could get AIDS! Jeez. I guess I should wear
a condom when interfacing with my computer from now on. VD via modem.
What'll they think of next?
>appreciate it, others dont. QueensRyche is a great group, there just not
Queensryche are nazis! Don't listen to them or they'll make you homocidal.
I've succumbed to the idea. You know Dr. X? The X is symbolistic of the
swastika. And the Tri-ryche logo? hehehe. I dunno about the logo, but the
name is VERY close to 3rd Reich to be a coincidence. Tri = 3 and all that.
Think about it.
Queensryche is EVIL, don't listen to them.
-- Korg drops the X from his name. X's are EVIL! NP: Queensryche: Operation Mindcrime------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:44:01 -0500 From: Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: more prog arguments. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19990408174401.006f67cc@pi-r-squared.com>
At 07:26 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Ok...I've heard a couple of posts now about Queensryche's "Operation >Mindcrime" and about how it is this awesome cd and everything, and I just >have to say....what the hell are you people smoking??????? I made the >mistake of buying it after hearing all you people rant and rave about it, >and I have to say that it is the biggest waste of 10 dollars that I've ever >spent. This is just a bunch of rehashed cock rock with Eddie Van Halen >wannabe's on guitar. And the songs themself aren't anything special at all. >And my lord...his singing made me cringe after listening for about 30 >seconds. I love DT and the stuff they put out, and to even compare DT with >Queensryche is a slap in the face to DT. If I could rename the cd I would >call it "Operation Mindcrap."
Ya know, I thought this when I first bought this cd too, having had it highly recommended on the jam. I didn't think there was anything special about it, but the more I've listened to it, the more I've come to like it. The plot is a bit muddled, there is (IMO anyway) barely anything progressive about it, and it is pretty straightforward, but it's an awesome cd. I think you're wrong about Tate btw, his vocals on that cd are amazing, filled with raw power.
>I bought PSOG by FW, Promised Land by QR and Twilight in Olympus by SX.=20 >Although I like all these albums i would never consider them prog. this is from another post. I disagree, APSOG is VERY prog, and a masterpiece. When I first bought it I had only heard part 4 so I was expecting it all to be like that... when I put it on I thought it was straight forward. I listened to it again a few times, and heard all the subtleties. There is a lot of stuff on this cd, that I think could meet EVERYONE's definition of progressive. The way KEvin plays that piano line, and then Mateos plays it on guitar, the reoccuring themes and lyrics, etc.
Palpatine Co Founder of Pi-R-Squared productions: www.pi-r-squared.com "Thank God I'm an aetheist" -Luis Bunel "What an incredible smell you've discovered" -Han Solo, Star Wars: A New Hope "Perhaps god gave the answers to those with nothing to say"- Savatage: Somewhere in time
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:42:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Hansen <bhansen10@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Queensryche's progressive history Message-ID: <19990408174259.19360.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com>
With all this talk about Queensryche, I guess it's time to give the real reason that Queensryche has been called "progressive" metal. For all of you old-timers out there, this is just history that you already know about. I'm sure Mike Portnoy would back me up on this recollection of how it was...
Back in 1984, Queensryche was arguably the BEST metal band in the world, following in the footsteps of bands like Iron Maiden. They had a huge amount of respect from all metal musicians and anyone heavily into music. At that time, Geoff Tate's vocal style was IN style, and he was the BEST at it. The music was perfect. Every note was exactly right. They were a huge influence on bands to come (Fates Warning, Dream Theater, Savatage, Helloween, Angra, Crimson Glory, Symphony X, Lemur Voice, damn near everyone discussed on this list). If you play ANY of the above bands to "old" folks who pretty much dropped out of the music scene in the 80's, they will always say "it sounds just like Queensryche".
When "Rage for Order" was released in 1986, they introduced more keyboards, but also sampling, distorted voices, and futurist lyrics. These techniques were not popular at that time. ***This is when Queensryche got it's "progressive metal" label.*** Listen to the song "Nueue Regal". They were way out ahead of other METAL bands of the time; totally leading edge. Not only that, they were damn good!
When they released their "rock opera" concept album, "Operation: Mindcrime", that just solidified their label of "prgressive metal".
It's all perspective. In 1986, Queensryche was leading edge. In 1999, they're over a decade old. It's all just history now. If you want high quality metal from the 80's, pick up the old Queensryche. But don't expect 13 year old albums to sound leading edge today.
my $.04, BH
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------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 4793 **************************
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