YTSEJAM Digest 6545
Today's Topics:
1) more DT/QR/FW dates
by Scott Hansen <schansen@cts.com>
2) New DT dates
by "Nicole R. Stachowicz" <nicole@skybluedesigns.com>
3) Re: Test message
by Miguel Farah <miguel@lj.cl>
4) Re: Test message
by Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com>
5) RE: Test message
by "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
6) High-pitched vocals thread
by Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
7) RE: Test message
by Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com>
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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:25:08 -0700
From: Scott Hansen <schansen@cts.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: more DT/QR/FW dates
Message-ID: <BAE57B64.63AF%schansen@cts.com>
Well, you Atlanta folk as well as you northwestern folk can be happy - MP
just announced 3 more dates on this summer tour:
Mon 6/30 - Atlanta, Georgia - The Tabernacle (re-scheduled!)
Thurs 7/31 - Portland, OR - Arlene Schnitzer Hall
Sat 8/2 - Seattle, WA - The Paramount Theater
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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:27:45 -0700
From: "Nicole R. Stachowicz" <nicole@skybluedesigns.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: New DT dates
Message-ID: <001301c318de$18954d30$0501a8c0@NicoleRene>
Mon 6/30 - Atlanta, Georgia - The Tabernacle (re-scheduled!)
Thurs 7/31 - Portland, OR - Arlene Schnitzer Hall
Sat 8/2 - Seattle, WA - The Paramount Theater
-Nicole
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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:33:30 -0400
From: Miguel Farah <miguel@lj.cl>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Test message
Message-ID: <20030513013330.GA27865@antonia.lj.cl>
Andrew Coutermarsh [12/05/2003 12:20] dijo/said:
>Apparently my domain was added to Torchsong's spam-relayer lists, although
>I have no idea why. I'm testing to see if it's still gonna eat my emails.
>:)
Seems it's working now.
-- MIGUEL FARAH // NOmigSPuelAM@lj.cl #include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.farah.cl <*> "Well, of COURSE I did it in cold blood, you idiot!... I'm a reptile!" - The Far Side------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:01:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Test message Message-ID: <20030512215955.U91580@samurai.ruin.org>
On Mon, 12 May 2003, Miguel Farah wrote:
> Andrew Coutermarsh [12/05/2003 12:20] dijo/said: > >Apparently my domain was added to Torchsong's spam-relayer lists, > >although I have no idea why. I'm testing to see if it's still gonna > >eat my emails. :) > > Seems it's working now.
Well, yes, that's what's supposed to happen when you get your domain REMOVED from a spam relayer listing. :)
I missed out on some good threads, too, namely the singing thread that was going on last month... I know some people were expecting me to write something and I did send it, but it got ate. ;) Now I can't even remember what was being said, and I'm too lazy to go back and look at it again.
------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh - http://www.acvox.com/ Email Address: andrew at acvox dot com ------------------------------------------------- "It is better to be a first-rate version of your- self, rather than a second-rate version of some- body else." - Judy Garland -------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:42:25 -0400 From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com> To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: RE: Test message Message-ID: <C2585FD5E8EF8E45B8C1EE08C4BF1BEE018F9F3E@hqexs20>
Andrew, Since I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the subject(s), I will refresh your memory: The conversation started with this comment:
"I don't understand why most prog metal singers need to sing so high and with so much vibrato."
To which I replied: "The same reason most prog metal drummers play super fast double-bass parts, or the same reason most prog metal guitarists play lightning fast widdly-widdly solos: It's difficult and technically challenging, and that is part of the genre. I never understand why many prog fans seem to really appreciate virtuoso musicianship, but only when not applied to the vocals. The singers are just trying to be as technically proficient with their instrument (their voice) as the rest of the band are on theirs."
We discussed that a bit, and then went on to a debate over what is or is not "falsetto". Some people think that whenever a prog metal singer sings high notes, that this is falsetto. I contend that what many people refer to as "falsetto" is really just "head voice". This is where I was really hoping you would weigh in. When you didn't (couldn't) I dug up the following definition online, which seem to satisfy most people, but I still would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
"Question: What is the difference between "head voice" and "falsetto"? Do women have a falsetto? Answer: Although many people use these terms interchangeably, they are both physically different processes that occur within the larynx. Both men and women have a head voice as well as falsetto. During speech, the vocal cords naturally adduct and vibrate at their full length. When a singer ascends from their speaking chest voice into their head voice, the vocal cords shorten in vibrating length as sound waves begin to travel more and more behind the soft palate, resonating in the head cavity. When done correctly there is no sudden shift in tone production because the vocal cords are staying adducted while the singer crosses the bridge into their head voice. Falsetto is the maximal elongation of vocal cords with minimal glottic gap. It can be produced at almost any frequency, but is mostly produced in the upper range for both male and female voices. It is the uncontrolled breathy or whistly sound that results from the vocal cords separating and most often occurs when a singer has not learned to coordinate their vocal cords to stay closing between registers. As a result, too much air forces the vocal cords apart, creating a "break." During falsetto the vocal cords are actually bowed apart and are unable to blend with chest voice, making it impractical to use except for special vocal stylings. While falsetto is sometimes used for style (such as in yodeling), most of the time it either occurs accidentally or as a stylistic means to disguise the singer's inability to coordinate their vocal cords between registers."
Jason H. (ZirconBlue)
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Coutermarsh [mailto:andrew@acvox.com] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:07 PM
I missed out on some good threads, too, namely the singing thread that was going on last month... I know some people were expecting me to write something and I did send it, but it got ate. ;) Now I can't even remember what was being said, and I'm too lazy to go back and look at it again.
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:49:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: High-pitched vocals thread Message-ID: <20030513144920.77274.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
--- "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com> wrote: > Andrew, > Since I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the subject(s), I will > refresh your memory: The conversation started with this comment:
<snip>
That was indeed a good thread. Come on Andrew, shoot!
I'm in the I-don't-understand camp myself. I mean, I like a bit of variation, and high-pitched technical singing can be very nice to listen at, but it's so easy to do it badly. I agree with a lot of people who say that the singer is often the weakest link in a band. Furthermore, you don't need to be able to sing window-breakingly high to be technically proficient. Classically trained basses and baritones will confirm that.
So why are they generally not employed by a progmetal band? That would be original. Listen to some of the singer on the Ayreon albums, one of them (forgot who, but he's on the Electric Castle) has a really bluesy voice, which works very well with the progmetal/rock he's singing to.
For the record, I do *not* dislike high-pitched vocals as a general rule, only when the singer in question is not able to do it properly. (e.g., and at the risk of being flamed :-) the Talamasca, Ivory Tower and Magnitude 9 singers)
Good examples would be Khan, KJLB, Russ Allen and even Timo Kotipelto (Hi Jens!), although he gets repetitive at times :-) Oh yeah and that Blind Guardian dude... Now that I come to think of it: Michael Tangermann of Superior (Hi Bernd!) doesn't really have a very high pitched voice but his singing is both technically top notch and emotional/expressive (that last thing Timo lacks for instance). Just wanted to add a comment about Lemur Voice's singer so I could say (Hi Marcel!) but I'm not gonna :-)
just my 2 Peter
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com
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Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:26:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: RE: Test message Message-ID: <20030513094640.X99639@samurai.ruin.org>
On Tue, 13 May 2003, Herbert, Jason wrote:
> Andrew, > Since I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the subject(s), I will > refresh your memory: The conversation started with this comment: > > "I don't understand why most prog metal singers need to sing so high and > with so much vibrato." > > To which I replied: "The same reason most prog metal drummers play super > fast double-bass parts, or the same reason most prog metal guitarists > play lightning fast widdly-widdly solos: It's difficult and technically > challenging, and that is part of the genre. I never understand why many > prog fans seem to really appreciate virtuoso musicianship, but only when > not applied to the vocals. The singers are just trying to be as > technically proficient with their instrument (their voice) as the rest > of the band are on theirs."
An important distinction here, though, is that there's a difference between being technically proficient and having vibrato. Having vibrato is a direct result of a natural and free voice. It means that you are relaxed to the point that your vocal chords are able to vibrate freely, resulting in vibrato, which is naturally present in the voice.
Singing high is nothing more than a stylistic choice. It's not necessarily a sign of technical proficiency (some people can just naturally sing high) or training. For an example of this, look at Russell Allen, who, while he can sing ridiculously high, is not all that technically proficient (or at least, he chooses NOT to display traditional classical singing technique, instead opting for a more growling sound, rougher and more intense.
While vibrato is usually a sign of training, it isn't always, since some people naturally sing with the right amount of relaxation in their voice (they're the lucky ones).
> We discussed that a bit, and then went on to a debate over what is or is > not "falsetto". Some people think that whenever a prog metal singer > sings high notes, that this is falsetto. I contend that what many > people refer to as "falsetto" is really just "head voice".
Actually, I would say that falsetto is EXTREMELY rare among prog-metal singers. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that head voice is rare among prog-metal singers. I think that most of what's done in the upper registers is done as strained chest voice, with few exceptions (LaBrie being one of them, Geoff Tate being another, Geddy Lee, et cetera). Most pull their heavy muscle up--this is a term used to describe the chesty sound that you hear in the speaking tones and middle registers; when it gets brought up into the upper register--so they can get the power of the chest voice in the higher notes. The only problem with this is that it not only becomes MUCH harder to control up there, but it also usually sounds strained.
> "Question: What is the difference between "head voice" and "falsetto"? > Do women have a falsetto? > > Answer: Although many people use these terms interchangeably, they are both > physically different processes that occur within the larynx. Both men and > women have a head voice as well as falsetto. During speech, the vocal cords > naturally adduct and vibrate at their full length. When a singer ascends > from their speaking chest voice into their head voice, the vocal cords > shorten in vibrating length as sound waves begin to travel more and more > behind the soft palate, resonating in the head cavity. When done correctly > there is no sudden shift in tone production because the vocal cords are > staying adducted while the singer crosses the bridge into their head voice. > Falsetto is the maximal elongation of vocal cords with minimal glottic gap. > It can be produced at almost any frequency, but is mostly produced in the > upper range for both male and female voices. It is the uncontrolled breathy > or whistly sound that results from the vocal cords separating and most often > occurs when a singer has not learned to coordinate their vocal cords to stay > closing between registers. As a result, too much air forces the vocal cords > apart, creating a "break." During falsetto the vocal cords are actually > bowed apart and are unable to blend with chest voice, making it impractical > to use except for special vocal stylings. While falsetto is sometimes used > for style (such as in yodeling), most of the time it either occurs > accidentally or as a stylistic means to disguise the singer's inability to > coordinate their vocal cords between registers."
Steve Zebrowski, another singer who used to be on the 'jam and may or may not be now, posted this at the MP.com Forum about the different vocal registers. I think it's a great way to explain it to people who aren't vocal pedagogs:
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Vocal Fry - the rattly, scrapy sound that occurs when your vocal folds are in the "singing" position, but you only apply enough air to make the aforementioned sound. (If you try to support this sound, it just kind of magically turns into head voice. Try it.)
Chest voice - in the most elementary of terms, singing in the normal speech range. Called chest voice because the primary resonating cavity is the chest.
Head voice - Head voice occurs when, during phonation, you adduct your vocal folds. That is, you sort of close the gap in them, but not all the way and only from one side...as if you were zipping them up with a zipper. The physics of this is akin to fretting a guitar string - the part that's still vibrating is shorter, and thus, the pitch is higher. Called head voice, obviously, because the main resonating cavities are in the head (sinuses, mouth, etc.).
To do this requires what is known as subglottic pressure. This is caused by feeding a LOT of air up through your throat, and at the same time using your vocal folds to keep a majority of the air IN. This is what I think of when someone uses the word "support." This technique is pretty elusive, and not a lot of teachers know how to describe it. Most just throw around the word "support" as the key to solving all vocal problems, but don't even begin to touch upon what it means.
Falsetto - Falsetto is like trying to do head voice without support. In fact, when you're singing in chest voice and try to go too high without supporting, your voice cracks into falsetto. However, if you know where your resonances are, you can make this register very usable.
Whistle Tones - Whistle tones occur when your vocal folds are SO taut and you're using SO much air that as it passes through the opening in your folds, it actually whisles. Incredibly hard to achieve, nigh-impossible to control. Mariah Carey, in her early career, seems to have done a good job of it, though.
Then, of course, you can "mix" registers...some pedagogs will call those different registers, some won't. At that point, it doesn't matter. (Personally, I think that the mixed registers are enough one register or the other, that to call them new registers would really be a misnomer.)
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I think that the main thing about head voice that Steve touches on here is the concept of subglottic pressure. The thing that keeps head voice from sounding like falsetto is the pressure you keep up (underneath the vocal chords, mind you) with the diaphragm. To sing in head voice requires an insane amount of air, whereas to sing in falsetto takes very little air at all--just enough to keep the vocal chords vibrating at frequency, to be exact. This is probably the main difference between the two registers, and it makes a world of difference. The reason is that as the vocal chords get shorter (like a guitar string) they must vibrate at higher speeds, which takes more air. Since with falsetto the chords actually get LONGER as you go higher (it's like harmonics on a guitar, almost), it actually requires less air.
I guess that's about all I have to say on the matter. :)
------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh - http://www.acvox.com/ Email Address: andrew at acvox dot com ------------------------------------------------- "The great mass of people ... will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one." - Adolf Hitler -------------------------------------------------
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