YTSEJAM Digest 6688
Today's Topics:
1) RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com>
2) RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Niall Connaughton <ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
3) RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Damon Fibraio <dfibraio@comcast.net>
4) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
5) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net>
6) Re: AS I AM
by Stan Tyszka <soculese@comcast.net>
7) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
8) Re: AS I AM
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
9) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by "Dave Schott" <admdave@qis.net>
10) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net>
11) Re: As I Am
by "Ambassador Nelaskon" <moc_liam@mail.com>
12) Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
by Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:34:17 -0500
From: "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
Message-ID: <LJEJLFCHDEEHAGCHOFPHGEJFCAAA.painlessscream@yahoo.com>
Niall wrote:
> Cos Jordan just didn't fit in on their version of MoP, to my ears anyway.
I guess that's each person's preference... they had to put the DT component
of their cover of it in there somewhere. Even if they were trying to go for
as-close-to-original-as-possible rendition, it'd be a waste of a stellar
musician not to have Rudess do _something_ ... my first band where I played
keyboards (cover band) did a lot of keyboard-less stuff, and I found myself
playing rhythm parts to Green Day songs and such, quite a bit - just to get
my fix in the intro to Paradise City later. And what better use for Rudess
than a solo, in any style? Only composition and arrangement, I'd say.
> The real question is... would it be any more shocking than his shaved head
> to see Jordan in a little black dress swinging his hips? :P
I'm not sure, but he'd pull it off too, and pull it off well, without a
doubt... with an Arabian scale in there somewhere (if you don't get it,
watch Keyboard Wizardry).
Ilia
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:38:25 +1100
From: Niall Connaughton <ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
Message-ID: <OPEJJAPFDGDMCLAHLLIMEEJADBAA.ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
> Ilia
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2003 7:27 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
>
> I guess that's each person's preference... they had to put the DT
> component
> of their cover of it in there somewhere. Even if they were
> trying to go for
> as-close-to-original-as-possible rendition, it'd be a waste of a stellar
> musician not to have Rudess do _something_ ... my first band
> where I played
> keyboards (cover band) did a lot of keyboard-less stuff, and I
> found myself
> playing rhythm parts to Green Day songs and such, quite a bit -
> just to get
> my fix in the intro to Paradise City later. And what better use
> for Rudess
> than a solo, in any style? Only composition and arrangement, I'd say.
My problems is that when he plays his solos, Jordan comes cutting in over
everything with that squealy lead sound of his that just doesn't seem to fit
a more plain metal song, then plays a solo that doesn't seem to have much
relationship with the song that's going on in the background. I guess it's
just his style of improv, it just doesn't hit anything for me a lot of the
time.
There have been times when his influences and alterations have been really
good... like on Learning to Live on LSFNY, with the reggae section and
subsequent solo. I reckon that works pretty well... I also like it when he's
playing with a piano sound rather than that squealy sound. He has a real
soft touch which shows up much nicer in the piano than the... other thing.
Niall
<insert IMHO disclaimer here>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:04:39 -0500
From: Damon Fibraio <dfibraio@comcast.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031027210408.01c65b58@mail.comcast.net>
--=======FFF122E======
Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-17581527; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Hey. I like his "squealy lead sound", and that may be his signature sound,
but it isn't the only lead he uses, for example, listen to the lead sound
from Lie on this tour, or how he did burning my soul or lines in the sand.
At 07:04 PM 10/27/2003, you wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
> > Ilia
> > Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2003 7:27 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list
> > Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
> >
> > I guess that's each person's preference... they had to put the DT
> > component
> > of their cover of it in there somewhere. Even if they were
> > trying to go for
> > as-close-to-original-as-possible rendition, it'd be a waste of a stellar
> > musician not to have Rudess do _something_ ... my first band
> > where I played
> > keyboards (cover band) did a lot of keyboard-less stuff, and I
> > found myself
> > playing rhythm parts to Green Day songs and such, quite a bit -
> > just to get
> > my fix in the intro to Paradise City later. And what better use
> > for Rudess
> > than a solo, in any style? Only composition and arrangement, I'd say.
>
>My problems is that when he plays his solos, Jordan comes cutting in over
>everything with that squealy lead sound of his that just doesn't seem to fit
>a more plain metal song, then plays a solo that doesn't seem to have much
>relationship with the song that's going on in the background. I guess it's
>just his style of improv, it just doesn't hit anything for me a lot of the
>time.
>
>There have been times when his influences and alterations have been really
>good... like on Learning to Live on LSFNY, with the reggae section and
>subsequent solo. I reckon that works pretty well... I also like it when he's
>playing with a piano sound rather than that squealy sound. He has a real
>soft touch which shows up much nicer in the piano than the... other thing.
>
>Niall
>
><insert IMHO disclaimer here>
-- Damon Fibraio, email dfibraio@comcast.net Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: dfibraio@comcast.net: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com"To those who understand, I extend my hand To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am Not under your command, I know where I stand I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am
"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers turn to look at the stars All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars Turn around and walk the razor's edge."--Neil Peart of Rush, The Pass
--=======FFF122E=======--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:25:55 -0500 From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <018e01c39cfa$d0b92ee0$9b00a8c0@mizz>
Yeah, that sound IS jordan. You can automatically tell it's him when it's a keyboard solo. It kinda can be squealy at annoying at times I admit, but it's good that he has a trademark sound. Add to the possible flames, out of the three key wiz's I like derek's sound for lead the best, so very RAW and in your face :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Damon Fibraio" <dfibraio@comcast.net> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:05 PM Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc.
> --=======FFF122E===== > Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-17581527; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Hey. I like his "squealy lead sound", and that may be his signature sound, > but it isn't the only lead he uses, for example, listen to the lead sound > from Lie on this tour, or how he did burning my soul or lines in the sand. > > At 07:04 PM 10/27/2003, you wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of > > > Ilia > > > Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2003 7:27 AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > > Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. > > > > > > I guess that's each person's preference... they had to put the DT > > > component > > > of their cover of it in there somewhere. Even if they were > > > trying to go for > > > as-close-to-original-as-possible rendition, it'd be a waste of a stellar > > > musician not to have Rudess do _something_ ... my first band > > > where I played > > > keyboards (cover band) did a lot of keyboard-less stuff, and I > > > found myself > > > playing rhythm parts to Green Day songs and such, quite a bit - > > > just to get > > > my fix in the intro to Paradise City later. And what better use > > > for Rudess > > > than a solo, in any style? Only composition and arrangement, I'd say. > > > >My problems is that when he plays his solos, Jordan comes cutting in over > >everything with that squealy lead sound of his that just doesn't seem to fit > >a more plain metal song, then plays a solo that doesn't seem to have much > >relationship with the song that's going on in the background. I guess it's > >just his style of improv, it just doesn't hit anything for me a lot of the > >time. > > > >There have been times when his influences and alterations have been really > >good... like on Learning to Live on LSFNY, with the reggae section and > >subsequent solo. I reckon that works pretty well... I also like it when he's > >playing with a piano sound rather than that squealy sound. He has a real > >soft touch which shows up much nicer in the piano than the... other thing. > > > >Niall > > > ><insert IMHO disclaimer here> > > -- > Damon Fibraio, email dfibraio@comcast.net > Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker > aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: > dfibraio@comcast.net: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com > Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com > > "To those who understand, I extend my hand > To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am > Not under your command, I know where I stand > I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am > > "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers turn to look at the stars > All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars > Turn around and walk the razor's edge."--Neil Peart of Rush, The Pass > > --=======FFF122E=======-- > >
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:21:30 -0300 From: Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <p05100303bbc390af493f@[168.226.102.2]>
>Yeah, that sound IS jordan. You can automatically tell it's him when it's a >keyboard solo. It kinda can be squealy at annoying at times I admit, but >it's good that he has a trademark sound. >Add to the possible flames, out of the three key wiz's I like derek's sound >for lead the best, so very RAW and in your face :)
I used to hate keyboard leads when I first started listening to prog. Now I'm used to it and actually enjoy them, but I still take a piano solo over an "electronic effect" solo any day.
- Edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:38:46 -0500 From: Stan Tyszka <soculese@comcast.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: AS I AM Message-ID: <3C341DEC-08F8-11D8-AED0-000A27B4B1C6@comcast.net>
> > > I totally understand that the actual song is longer. The problem is > that > more of this song won't necessarily make it better. The real problem > I have > is that DT seems to rely far too much on "influences".
So Playing styles and influences area bad thing? I am not so sure that is the case. I am a drummer myself. When people find that out they ask me what my band sounds like. I typically tell them it sounds like ______ and ______, with a little of ______. Typically bands have traces of other bands in them since people learn from others. I have some Mike'isms in my playing because 90 percent of the time if I am listening to music I am listening to something that he is playing. Does this make me an un-original drummer? Or am I just overly influenced by what I listen to?
> This sounds like > Tool, this sounds like Radiohead, this sounds like Metallica. Sure in > the > end it is Dream Theater, I just prefer it to be more unique. "Images > And > Words", "Scenes From A Memory" are unique in their sound. They seem > to be > always trying to damn hard for something. When the ideas flow more > naturally, nothing seems forced (LTE, Scenes).
> > I know the album will probably be decent but why settle?
If the album was decent, it would not be released. Why settle? What are we settling for? Great music? Even on the bands weakest material they still write circles around almost every other band. Before you flame that last sentence notice the ALMOST in that sentence.
> I wind up > preferring Porcupine Tree, Parallel Or 90 Degrees or even some old > Nektar > for some uniqueness. What I am struggling with is that "As I Am" is a > dud > the same way "Lie" was a dud. It has nothing to do with sound quality > or it > being an edit. A good song is a good song, a boring song is just > that. :) > Flame away. I am hoping that the rest of the album redeems this song > and > maybe we actually hear Jordan.
Well, I guess you could say that no one is forcing you to listen to them, but since you are there must be something that is appealing. As far as Lie being a dud, I somehow don't understand that as it has one of the sweetest sounding solo sections in the end. Do you really think that the band would leave some of the more advanced sounding themes and passages in a radio edit? Not for release on american radio. How would that compete with boyband A and That annoying Spears Kid? Specifically listen to the Blind Faith Radio edit. There is a large chunk of that song that got lopped off to fit in a format suitable for most of the general listening public. The abum version was much more intense. Look at the video for Pull Me Under. Lost is a lot of development in the song as they needed to fit it in to a format. This song has a lot of power in just the radio edit. If you listen carefully, or re-Eq the song, you will hear Jordan in there. Did I like the radio edit? Yes. Do I believe it is indicatory of the rest of the CD? Not in a million years. November 11th will tell. The train is gearing up. >
> > > On another similar note, I'm intrigued that I didn't notice Jordan > being > completely inaudible in the entire radio edit...
then I think that we were the only ones there that did, I heard him. I keep hearing others saying that he is not there. I also cannot understand why some would want the keys in there, especially if the possibility exists that it may not fit the song.
> > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:23:58 -0500 > From: "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com> > To: ytsejam@torchsong.com > Subject: Re: AS I AM > Message-ID: <Law15-F31C81TbdkSmL00004d48@hotmail.com> > > I totally agree with Andrew. I guess that's what I am trying to say. > The > song doesn't sound like DT and quite honestly I don't think the SONG > is that > good. As I said, it has nothing to do with being an edit. I LOVE the > edits > of Blind Faith, Misunderstood and especially Solitary Shell!! Why? > Because > they are all good songs regardless of how you slice them. I am not > trying > to be difficult but DT need to be DT and not wear their influences so > blatantly. :)
But that is who they are, that is typically what a band is. A bunch of guys who come together that sound like someone else and blend it together. When someone tells me about a new band I have never heard of, I typically tell them it sounds like a cross between ___ and ___ and ___. Why is this such a huge deal. The Glass Prison had some influences in it, but none of the bands that influenced it could have ever pulled it off in the way that DT did it, > >
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:38:28 -0500 From: "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <Law15-F97SHnlLMEndf00005092@hotmail.com>
I like Derek's sound fine, it's just better within Planet X! :) I think he and DT both made out. Jordan's lead sound fits them much the way Kevin's sound did. I see more similarities between them than say Derek. Oh great, just what we need...another discussion on the effin keyboardists!
Rob
>From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> >Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com >To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> >Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:35:28 -0800 (PST) > >Yeah, that sound IS jordan. You can automatically tell it's him when it's a >keyboard solo. It kinda can be squealy at annoying at times I admit, but >it's good that he has a trademark sound. >Add to the possible flames, out of the three key wiz's I like derek's sound >for lead the best, so very RAW and in your face :) > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Damon Fibraio" <dfibraio@comcast.net> >To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> >Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:05 PM >Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. > > > > --=======FFF122E==== > > Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-17581527; >charset=us-ascii; >format=flowed > > > > Hey. I like his "squealy lead sound", and that may be his signature >sound, > > but it isn't the only lead he uses, for example, listen to the lead >sound > > from Lie on this tour, or how he did burning my soul or lines in the >sand. > > > > At 07:04 PM 10/27/2003, you wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf >Of > > > > Ilia > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2003 7:27 AM > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > > > Subject: RE: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. > > > > > > > > I guess that's each person's preference... they had to put the DT > > > > component > > > > of their cover of it in there somewhere. Even if they were > > > > trying to go for > > > > as-close-to-original-as-possible rendition, it'd be a waste of a >stellar > > > > musician not to have Rudess do _something_ ... my first band > > > > where I played > > > > keyboards (cover band) did a lot of keyboard-less stuff, and I > > > > found myself > > > > playing rhythm parts to Green Day songs and such, quite a bit - > > > > just to get > > > > my fix in the intro to Paradise City later. And what better use > > > > for Rudess > > > > than a solo, in any style? Only composition and arrangement, I'd >say. > > > > > >My problems is that when he plays his solos, Jordan comes cutting in >over > > >everything with that squealy lead sound of his that just doesn't seem >to >fit > > >a more plain metal song, then plays a solo that doesn't seem to have >much > > >relationship with the song that's going on in the background. I guess >it's > > >just his style of improv, it just doesn't hit anything for me a lot of >the > > >time. > > > > > >There have been times when his influences and alterations have been >really > > >good... like on Learning to Live on LSFNY, with the reggae section and > > >subsequent solo. I reckon that works pretty well... I also like it when >he's > > >playing with a piano sound rather than that squealy sound. He has a >real > > >soft touch which shows up much nicer in the piano than the... other >thing. > > > > > >Niall > > > > > ><insert IMHO disclaimer here> > > > > -- > > Damon Fibraio, email dfibraio@comcast.net > > Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker > > aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: > > dfibraio@comcast.net: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com > > Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at >http://www.nhbradio.com > > > > "To those who understand, I extend my hand > > To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am > > Not under your command, I know where I stand > > I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I >am > > > > "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers turn to look at the stars > > All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars > > Turn around and walk the razor's edge."--Neil Peart of Rush, The Pass > > > > --=======FFF122E=======-- > > > > > >
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:00:39 -0500 From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: AS I AM Message-ID: <01d001c39d08$0cf55610$9b00a8c0@mizz>
Some interesting points here, Stan. One that particularly stands out is you reminding us (me specifically) that the BEST part of Lie was indeed cut out of the video. When I saw it on 5YiaL and heard that cheesed fade out (as it JUST gets insane), I was disappointed, but then realized that people watching it would be like "what the crap?"... you just gave me a reminder of how those radio edits suck ;) I actually was musing the other day as to the rest of As I am being an INSANE instrumental break with like 243/16 from Portnoy and Petrucci playing legato sweep scales in asian scales ;)
As I said, I'm happy to see more than one message on the jam per week now that the release date draws near :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Tyszka" <soculese@comcast.net> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 10:35 PM Subject: Re: AS I AM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:53:25 -0500 From: "Dave Schott" <admdave@qis.net> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <00c101c39d0f$6bf2f260$0200a8c0@Two>
> Now I'm used to it and actually enjoy them, but I still take a piano > solo over an "electronic effect" solo any day.
I definitely can agree with that, its a good thing ol' Charlie has a voice to kill a cat's else we'd probably argue over him and James. Anyone want to discuss the merits of Levin/Myung?
-Dave Schott (AdmiralDave) admdave@qis.net http://www.bangarangband.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:38:02 -0300 From: Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <p05100300bbc40574abbf@[168.226.102.2]>
> > Now I'm used to it and actually enjoy them, but I still take a piano >> solo over an "electronic effect" solo any day. > >I definitely can agree with that, its a good thing ol' Charlie has a voice >to kill a cat's else we'd probably argue over him and James. Anyone want to >discuss the merits of Levin/Myung?
Hmm no argument there: Levin
Who else can play two notes in 10 minutes and still sound great?? :)
- Edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:12:51 -0800 From: "Ambassador Nelaskon" <moc_liam@mail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: As I Am Message-ID: <20031028141251.92059.qmail@mail.com>
Well, for my part, I can say that I thought SFAM was awesome, and I just didn't like 6DoIT that much because it sounded like they were just trying too hard to TRY to do something great. It didn't sound like it was really what they felt inside; just like "Wow, man ... we need to do this, and this ... and then what? Oh yeah, that."
The tracks from 6D that I thought were really good were Blind Faith and The Great Debate. Unfortunately, Jordan had to go and play that '70s organ sound in BF, and his vocal chords in TGD just didn't sound full-bodied or right at all.
Anyway, Jordan said on his site that he DOES play a lot on As I Am, it's just that he's playing crunchy distrorted stuff that we're not used to hearning from him.
I am pretty damned interested to hear what they do now. I'm not expecting a truly awesome CD though, after 6D (which was the first one I wasn't initially impressed with overall), but I hope to be surprised.
From what MP said about the musical direction of Stream of Consciousness, I think I'll at least be impressed with that up until Jordan plays a '70s organ sound. :)
Cyaron
NP: Sapphirecut - Free Your Mind
--------
"He who has the power to see that which cannot be seen shall see the truth." - Golden Sun
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:50:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: MoP version, Rudess on record, etc. Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0310281549350.8800@norge.freeshell.org>
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Dave Schott wrote:
> I definitely can agree with that, its a good thing ol' Charlie has a voice > to kill a cat's else we'd probably argue over him and James. Anyone want to > discuss the merits of Levin/Myung? >
hmmmm, now you've done it.......;)
-- Best Regards, Independent Computer Consultant, Eric George -Tech Guru's
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