YTSEJAM digest 719

Date: Sun Feb 26 1995 - 07:09:23 EST

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                                YTSEJAM Digest 719

    Today's Topics:

      1) WDADU production
     by Mats Rydstr\vm <>
      2) All sorts of stuff
     by (John Hough)
      3) nuthin'
     by zebrowski steven <>
      4) DT cover band
     by (John Hough)
      5) Guitar QUestion! URGENT!
      6) Re: nuthin'
     by Stephen Bajzek <MadMax+@CMU.EDU>
      7) Re: Guitar QUestion! URGENT!
     by Michael Bahr <>
      8) Boxing Guy
     by "Jason T. Breitweg" <>
      9) Comparing drummers!
     by (Matti Suhonen)
     10) YTSE convention band?
     by "David Bell" <>
     11) SloppyJoe69 & AOL
     by (Chris White)
     12) Hello there I'm new
     by "Twan Korthorst" <>
     13) ProgFest (was Re: Dream Concert)
     by (Ken Bibb)
     14) Re: Portnoy/Peart
     15) RE: YTSEJAM digest 718
     16) Recording Shit 2
     by Hairball <>
     17) MIXING
     by Hairball <>


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:47:53 +0100 (MET)
    From: Mats Rydstr\vm <>
    To: Ytsejam mailing-list <>
    Subject: WDADU production
    Message-ID: <>

    When I first heard WDADU some couple of years ago I was very surprised.
    Before listening to it I'd read on the back that Terry Date was the
    producer so imagine how disappointed I was with the production when I
    finally listened to the album. I thought I knew Terry Date as the guy
    with monstrously fat sounds from albums like Louder Than Love
    and BadMotorFinger from Soundgarden, and also he's worked with Pantera (I
    think...) The main thing on those albums are the fat, grinding guitars
    that mosh together with the bass and makes the music HEAVY, however the
    production on WDADU is one of the poorest I've ever heard.

    I've read interviews where the guys in the band have talked about the
    producers and when talking about Terry they said that he didn't do
    *anything*, he just sat back and let them do all the work. If you listen
    to the old demos for the songs you should be able to tell that that was
    probably the case, the same thin bass-sound etc. They then understood
    that they could use a guy with more power that would put some pressure on
    them, and they got David Prater who did just that very well. On Awake
    they probably decided to go somewhere in between.

    Just my thoughts, IMO the best production is the one on Awake despite the
    fact that it sounds like, what we in Sweden call melodifestival,
    schlager-production where all instruments can be heard fully, clearly and
    nicely with overdone modern fx, like this mega-expensive reverb bla bla...
    But for me it has more to do with the sound of the actual instruments.
    Kevin has (had) finally got rid of the cheezier sounds, and the cheezier
    ways to play them (no flaming please, I know it was supposed to sound
    like that in the 80's) and also John M take leaps ahead (if he'll keep
    improving his bass-sound like he's done between the previous albums I'm not
    sure if I dare to listen to the next album!). I&W sounds really good as
    well and I like the trigged snare but some of his chinas/crashes sound
    like shit and also, as previously mentioned, some of the synth-leads are
    really cheezy-sounding. (From WDADU I like the Broon-mix of Afterlife better
    than the usual mix I might add.)

    Ooops, another long post, sorry!

    Last I'd like to add that I'm pleased to see John Myung coming out of the
    closet. Recently I've seen him in interviews two times, on MTV's HBB and
    on Swedish Z-TV, ok Pertucci did most of the talking but still I think
    it's a good thing. Also there's a big space lyric-wise to fill after
    Kevin and I really think that John M should step forth and write more
    lyrics, his and Kev's are my favourites, and not let John P take over the
    whole show. That's just my opinion, it would be nice to hear more from
    Mike and James as well.

    Even more last: the Stockholm show was great all in all. I missed the first
    two songs (and FW too) because I played myself like I previously told you, I
    didn't really succeed to solve that problem, so I missed the disastrous
    opening and the cool jazz-jam and also Dereks solo on 6:00 (dammit dammit!)

    I think Derek fits in perfectly! He nailed every solo plus doing his own
    stuff, but I was most impressed with the more subtle parts, those were
    fantastic. Also as a big fan of real keyboards (Hammond etc) it was nice
    to hear him use more organ-type sounds and also digital Leslie-simulators
    as well as the killer Erotomania-organ stuff.

    I like the fact that they have solo spots now, more than before, it was
    great to Petrucci jazz, very emotional (and at least somewhat
    improvisational!), I'm not at all bored with such things, but I think
    that they should do at least one song from WDADU, whoa did I hope for
    TOWHTSTS!!! Also pleased that they didn't do IF. However they did
    Surrounded, and Damage Inc but alas no Perfect Strangers!

    Well I hope they'll be back soon...

    Take care!

       / Mats Rydstrom - - /
     / "We can hope for the future, though there may not be one" - ACOS /


    Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:35:00 -0800
    From: (John Hough)
    Subject: All sorts of stuff
    Message-ID: <>

    Hey everyone just a few comments on some of the latest things on the jam

    1. Ytse convention: Definitley a killer idea. I've only met Kinga so far (I
                                    but I would definitley like to meet some of
    the other So.
                                    Cal jammers (Jen, Michelle, Dr. Mosh, Ken,
    etc.). If anyone
                                    can get it together (like when DT comes back
    to So Cal)
                                    maybe a party or get together at a club or
    bar after the
                                    show that would be cool.

    2. Puh-Pounded: Michelle this takes the cake! I thought PMF was classic this
                                is great! I even thought about doin' one myself.

    3. Sloppyjoe69: For everyone who blasted this guy; I have an aol account and
                               I searched for this guy on the member directory
    and there was
                              no one with that name on aol. I tried to send him
    a VERY nasty
                               letter so as to not clog up the jam and it got
    returned to me. This
                               asshole pissed alot of jammers off and I hope he
    makes a return
                               appearance so we can all flood his mailbox with
    flames. (For Ken:
                               I thought the jam wouldn't accept mail from

    4. Dream Band: Geoff Tate - Vocals
                               Skid Row- Background Vocals
                               George Lynch - Lead Guitars
                               John Petrucci - Rythmn Guitars
                               Me - Guitar - "That one out of key note on the
    cd" (Just so I can have a
                                       seriously exciting story to tell!!!!!)
                               Kyle Kyle - Bass
                               Scott Rockenfield - Drums
                               Kevin Moore - Keys
                               Tom Keifer - Mandolin, Slide, Lap Steel, and Harp

    5. Mailing lists: I'm trying to find a mailing list for Kiss? Anyone?

    Thats it for now, Later

    *DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT* John Hough
    "Fear hangs the fellow that ties up his years,
    entangled in yellow and cries all his tears."
    SRV: "Couldn't stand the weather"


    Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:51:59 -0500 (EST)
    From: zebrowski steven <>
    Subject: nuthin'
    Message-ID: <>

    Well, since it was talked about in the last 'jam, I thought that I would post
    my take on the cover of Awake.

    6:00--Obviously the clock on the moon
    Caught in a Web--Again obvious
    Innocence Faded--Possibly the old man looking into the mirror at the young man
    The Silent Man--???
    The Mirror--Probably the mirror
    Lie--???<actually, I consider Lie as much a part of The Mirror as The Silent
            Man or Voices or Erotomania is a part of A Mind..., but I just listed
            it here for completeness's sake>
    Lifting Shadows...--Possibly the rippling water<"...He pours his soul into the
    Scarred--Since Scarred is primarily about states of mind, I don't think it is
            represented in the picture
    Space-Dye Vest--Probably the "space" in the corner

    This, however, is the superficial view of the cover, in my opinion. Personally,
    I think the cover represents A Mind Beside Itself<primarily The Silent Man>
    with selected elements from the album's other songs. But, that's just me, and
    everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. By the way, I can't remember if
    it has been discussed before, but if one looks at one's Awake and I&W covers,
    one notices that the I&W girl holds in her hand the mirror from Awake.

    I love all these "dream bands" that jammers are posting w/ like 40 members.
    What is this, Temple of the Dog?:)

    BTW, my dream band is:

    Lead vocals: James LaBrie
    Background vocals: Galactic Cowboys
    Lead Guitar: Frank Aresti/John Petrucci
    Rhythm Guitar: John Petrucci/Frank Aresti
    Bass Guitar: Eddie Jackson
    Keyboard: Kevin Moore
    Percussion: Sue Hajopoulus
    Drums: Mark Zonder

    Sound familiar? Leaving Myung and Portnoy off of that list was as hard as
    leaving my Awake CD at home for a week, but I think the other guys have a more
    interesting sound<at least you can *hear* Ed!>.

    Aaaargh! This message is too long! Sorry.

    Steve Z


    Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:58:44 -0800
    From: (John Hough)
    Subject: DT cover band
    Message-ID: <>

    In digest #717

    >Iv erecently been playing Surrounded, Under a Glass Moon, PMU,
    >Another Day, and TTT off of I&W and Innocence Faded, Erotomania
    >(i LOVE these two songs...) and Voices (unbelievable emotion
    >in this song, whew!) and was wondering if there are guitarists,
    >bassists and keyboardists who can play these as well....
    >OH and vocals too.
    >Great list everybody, keep it turned all the way UP!!!
    >Asif Khan

    I would love to jam in a DT cover band! I am waiting for the I&W book to come
    out here in San Diego so I can learn some more stuff in detail, but right now I
    can play on guitar Another Day, PMU, Lie, Erotomania, and UAGM.

    *DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT*DT* John Hough
    "Fear hangs the fellow that ties up his years,
    entangled in yellow and cries all his tears."
    SRV: "Couldn't stand the weather"


    Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 22:32:16 -0500 (EST)
    Subject: Guitar QUestion! URGENT!
    Message-ID: <950225223216.23a4bea9@CSUSYS.CTSTATEU.EDU>

    My friend and I are playing an acoustic open-mike night in 2 days, and
    one of our numbers is "The Silent Man". I have 90% of the tune down,
    except does anyone know the fill chord after the
    G,D, A/C#,Cadd9 series.
    "a question well served, is silence like a fever"..this chord right here.!

    and Also, can someone give me a bit of insight into the part after
    the first chorus? the part that starts on a D chord..i know most of it,
    but some parts are sticky.

    Last Question: the "pray they won't ask....behind the stained glass. there's
    always one more mask". part. chords are: Em, Am, D, Em, C (?), D
    does this sound right?

    Please EMAIL all replies. Thank You!



    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:30:54 -0500 (EST)
    From: Stephen Bajzek <MadMax+@CMU.EDU>
    To: Multiple recipients of list <>
    Subject: Re: nuthin'
    Message-ID: <>

    Excerpts from mail: 26-Feb-95 nuthin' by zebrowski steven@gl.umbc
    > 6:00--Obviously the clock on the moon
    > Caught in a Web--Again obvious
    > Innocence Faded--Possibly the old man looking into the mirror at the
    young man
    > Erotomania--???

    Maybe the old guy is supposed to be sexy

    > Voices--???

    The guy who's mouth you can't see is talking

    > The Silent Man--???

    The other guy isn't

    > The Mirror--Probably the mirror
    > Lie--???<actually, I consider Lie as much a part of The Mirror as The

    The mirror never lies, except like when there's someone else in
    the mirror when you should be seeing yourself, or something

    > Lifting Shadows...--Possibly the rippling water<"...He pours his soul into

    Maybe that isn't water. Maybe it's sand. Or maybe it's, like, a
    rumpled bed sheet, and refers to erotomania. I really never thought
    it looked like water.

    > Scarred--Since Scarred is primarily about states of mind, I don't think it

    The old guy's got a scar on his face where you can't see it because of
    the beard and the fact that he's facing the other way.


    Anton Max | I know I was looking for something
    Keyboards, Aepithex | Thought it was you, but I guess it was me
    MadMax+@CMU.EDU | -Kevin Moore


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 10:36:39 -0700 (MST)
    From: Michael Bahr <>
    Subject: Re: Guitar QUestion! URGENT!
    Message-ID: <>

    > My friend and I are playing an acoustic open-mike night in 2 days, and
    > one of our numbers is "The Silent Man". I have 90% of the tune down,
    > except does anyone know the fill chord after the
    > G,D, A/C#,Cadd9 series.
    > "a question well served, is silence like a fever"..this chord right here.!

            What Petrucci is doing here is adding a finger to the Cadd9.:

    (EADGBE) Cadd9 = X3555X Fill chord: X3556X

    > and Also, can someone give me a bit of insight into the part after > the
    first chorus? the part that starts on a D chord..i know most of it, > but
    some parts are sticky.

            Try this... it seems to be pretty damn close:





    > Last Question: the "pray they won't ask....behind the stained glass. there's
    > always one more mask". part. chords are: Em, Am, D, Em, C (?), D
    > does this sound right?

    Em Am D Em
    C D
    B Em
    C D


    Mike Bahr,


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:46:25 -0600 (CST)
    From: "Jason T. Breitweg" <>
    To: Ytsejam List <>
    Subject: Boxing Guy
    Message-ID: <>

    Hi All,

    In case anyone cares (which they probably don't), the name of the guy
    that says "Lets get ready to RUMBLE" is Michael Buffer. If you watch any
    boxing on USA or ESPN you will see him eventually. BTW was anyone else
    out there at the DT show in Indianapolis where Mike had that sign up? It
    was the hottest show ever and I swear everyone was about to faint at any
    moment (or maybe that was just me because I also had the flu *chuckle*).


    | Jason T. Breitweg Internet: |
    | |
    | beholden i realize you want the best for me |
    | so trust my words release my hand and let me wander free |
    | |
    | - "Beholden" |
    | Early Warning |


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 20:15:30 +0200
    From: (Matti Suhonen)
    Subject: Comparing drummers!
    Message-ID: <>

    It#s almost impossible to compare two very good
    drummers and make conclusions about that which one
    of them is the BEST drummer. Portnoy is playing quite
    different music than Peart. Both play odd-time rhythms
    but Portnoy plays harder than Peart.
    Technically both are great. My opinion is that you can#t
    compare those two drummers (of course you always can, but does
    it make any sense to.)

    Have any of you drummers out there heard the record
    Burning for Buddy, produced by Neil Peart, if you have
    tell me is it good.


    PS.Sorry, my poor english.

    Common sense is something odd!!


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 10:01:16 -0600 (CST) From: "David Bell" <> To: Subject: YTSE convention band? Message-ID: <>

    > From: "Richard A. Rivera" <> > > 1) I'm all for a YTSE con. I live in LA, so that's where I'll be > over the summer, if that's when it's going to happen. If it is going to > to take place over the remainder of the school year, I might be able to > make it down to Boston. Also, in regards to a cover band playing at the > con, if it happens in LA I'll volunteer my services. I can play > "Surrounded," "Another Day," and "Lifting Shadows Off a Dream," > note-for-note (I play drums) and can get through "Erotomania" without > emabarressing myself too badly. I also know of an *incredible* bass > player from the LA area on this list (hi Dave).

    Gee, thanks Richie. I've been reading the talk about possible conventions/gatherings but I must have missed something. Is part of the plan to put together a little homemade DT covers concert? I'd certainly be up for that, just for fun. Can't get too serious about it or I might damage my alternative/indie-rock credibility. :-) Like Richie, said, I'd be in the LA area over the summer. I've learned most DT songs on bass at one time or another, and yes, it's often a trial to try to pick out Myung's lines from the mix. As for the inevitable question which faces bass players 'round these parts: I could probably play the tapping part in "Metropolis" if John Myung was to sit down with me and play it very methodically, slowly working up to speed. :-^ Anyways, my favorite DT songs to play on bass these days have gotta be "Ytsejam," "Erotomania," and "6:00." So if this band idea is going to be anything more than conjecture, write to me, by all means.

    --David Bell


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 14:16:34 EST From: (Chris White) To: Subject: SloppyJoe69 & AOL Message-ID: <>

    I didn't want to mention this earlier, because I was hoping it'd just pass by, but it didn't so I guess I should tell everyone. (did that make sense? Probably not *chuckle*) Anyway, everyone was flaming him and AOL. However, if you look at his return address, he wasn't even FROM aol. I thought he was at first too, but if you look closely, he's from Not sure if it was fakemail or not, but that's what his address said. {**********************************************************************} {************************** Christopher White *************************} {******************** *******************} {----------------------------------------------------------------------} {-------- The Automated Purity Test version 2 is now finished! -------} {-------- Email me with the subject PURITY TEST (or something -------} {-------- like that to get my attention :) and I'll give you -------} {------------------------ info or a copy of it! -----------------------} {----------------------------------------------------------------------}


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:22:10 +1 From: "Twan Korthorst" <> To: Subject: Hello there I'm new Message-ID: <>

    Hey Dream Theater fans,

    I have just received the first Ytsejam digest and I want to know a few things.

    1. Who, Why, What is Ytsejam? (I also found it on several WWW pages)

    2. Reading about the .com .edu etc disussion I'm wondering: How many subscribers are in Europe?

    3. I found on the net a DT demo for Windows, was it really as bad as I saw, or did I miss something?

    4. Because of the fact that the radio stations in the Netherlands doesn't pay much attention to Dream Theater, I missed the why of Moore's leaving the band. At MTV's Headbangers Ball they also didn't pay attention to it. The members of the band repeated several times the band grew tighter to each other (is this English?), but when somebody leaves a band this isn't ok, is it?

    5. Why is the name of Dream Theater as it is, and not Dream Theatre? Is this the difference between English (I've learned at school) and American English?

    I live in the Netherlands, you know Amsterdam, wooden shoes, mills, water all over the place etc., and DT did perform two times and I missed both. But fortunately a concert in Madrid (Spain) was cancelled and now the will play another time in my country and guess what: I succeeded in getting a ticket!! Yoeghee!!

    Further I want to mention that if someone is missing the bass parts of John, I think it's time to buy another pair of speakers. I myself enjoy his parts very much.


    ---------------------------------------------------------- I'm caught in the Web. ---------------------------------------------------------- Twan Korthorst Lonnekerbrugstraat 89 7547 AJ Enschede The Netherlands e-mail


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 13:03:19 +0800 From: (Ken Bibb) To: ytsejam, Subject: ProgFest (was Re: Dream Concert) Message-ID: <>

    > From: (John Jens, Jr.) > > >How about just a real big PROG FEST... like Lollapaloozer except for > >progressive rock. we could have the following line-up: > > > > Queensryche, Rush, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Yes, Marillion > > > >and tons of other bands to make like a two day fest that happens maybe > >like 4 times a year in different places. > > > >-The Doc > > i'm there dude :) Progstock '95!!!

    There *is* a progfest. In fact, there were two last year in the US :) But they are more progressive rock than progressive metal. (Plug: if you haven't heard Anglagard, check them out--they have an interesting complex style which would probably appeal to Dream Theater fans.)

    -- Ken Bibb "Upon a wave of summer A hilltop paved with gold We shut our eyes and make the promises we hold" David Sylvian--"Wave"


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 15:48:03 (CST) From: To: Subject: Re: Portnoy/Peart Message-ID: <>

    I think a good case can be made for both of these guys' talent, and it's really too tough to say who is better, but let me throw in some of my thoughts. Personally I can learn Peart's stuff easier than Portnoy's, but I think Neal gets my vote for the better drummer based on his vast experience and versatility. Mike doesn't seem to expand his drumming like Peart. For exapmle, listen to Neal on Fly By Night, then Mystic Rhythms, then Show Don't Tell and you will understand what I'm talking about. Very flexible and versatile. Listening to Mike, I can't hear as much versatility, but maybe I'll have to analyze this once DT has put out five or six more albums. To say Mike is better than Neil right now is like saying Luke Skywalker is a more powerful Jedi Knight than Obi-Wan (laugh track please.) Unless you put the two in the same room and had a game of "can you top this" on the drums, it's a mighty tough call. So from this drummer's perspective, one vote for Peart. I'm quite sure this issue has been discussed before, so I'm not trying to start flames, but it would be interesting to hear other drummers' ideas/opinions. __________________________________________________________ | Andrew Joseph Feyder | "You know, life moves pretty | | Gustavus Adolphus College | fast. If you don't stop | | 800 West College Ave. | and look around, you could | | St. Peter MN 56082 | miss it" | | (507)-933-8715 | -Ferris Bueller. | |___________________________|______________________________| (O) - (O) / \ \_/ \_________/ \_______/


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:27 EST From: USRNAME <BB09734@BINGVAXA.BITNET> To: Subject: RE: YTSEJAM digest 718 Message-ID: <>

    Original_To: com%""

    Hello all, This is my first post and I hope I am doing it right! I am writing to respond to Scott Snyderman,s Portnoy vs Peart controversy. Though I fell it silly to have to pick "the best" of the two, I will say that Peart holds something that I fell Portnoy has yet to find, musical maturity. Peart plays for the song while expounding his own views by way of the drums. Everything he plays is very neccesary. I feel Portnoy has a bit of ego involved in his drumming, which translates to some fills or rhythms that don't quite fit, howerver flashy and amazing they may be. Being a drummer myself, I will say that they are two of the greatest drummers who ever lived , no doubt. As an aside, I have identifyed another sound bite from from SDV. You can hear near the end of all the samples, two men talking about "a dry heat" . This is from an episode of "The Conan o'Brien Show". I can't remember who he is talking to, but I know I definitly saw t show. Later, Jake


    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:10:52 -0500 (EST) From: Hairball <> To: Subject: Recording Shit 2 Message-ID: <>

    I can't believe someone wants me to explain why you can't hear John's bass. Well, you asked for it. =)

    Okay, here's the deal:

    1) Compression can be used in a few ways. Primarilly, it's basically used to boost weaker signals, and slow down the attack of hotter ones. This can all be altered, depending on the compressor.

    2) Compressors are used, sometimes with either a gate and/or limiter.

    3) To understand what a gate is, think about the signal as a person, coming to an automatic door. The door has to open to let this person in. Once the person comes in, the door closes, letting no one else through, until they trip the door again.

    Simply put, gates are very useful in cutting out noise and unwanted "things." They can be set to open/close at a certain rate, or, they can be triggered externally by another signal. For example, if you plug the output for the kick drum into the "External" control for a gate, the gate will open and close when it recieves signal from the kick drum.

    4) A limiter does pretty much what the name connotates. It helps to control peaks in the signal...this is different than a compressor, as a limiter doesn't really do much for weak signals.

    As for why you can't hear John's Bass on I&W:

    If you get the opportunity to see DT live, get as far up as you can, and stand in front of his amp. It's VERY TINNY. Why? Simple - He knocks off a great deal of his low end so it will cut through.

    Now, knowing what I've said about the compressor, there's one other thing you need to know: Compressors have a tendancy to reduce the FREQUENCY RESPONSE. In other words, it squashes tone.

    So, bearing all this in mind, what it sounds like Prater did was to compress the bass, but, EQ it like it was a regular ol' rock & roll bass. In other words, it's felt more than heard.

    You really have to listen for it, but, it's there.

    Another likely cause: Destructive Cancellation.

    Basically, (and I don't want to get more technical than this, because I'd wind up writing a f**king disseration...) when there's too many sounds occupying an area of frequency, they tend to "struggle" for that space.

    To illustrate, think about it this way:

    The range of human hearing, theoretically, is 20hz to 20kHz. Hz, or Hertz, means "cycles per second." It refers to the number of times that a frequency cycles every second. A cycle is completed when the wave starts and returns to its point of origin...<sigh> I wish I could show you this, but, I can't.

    Anyway, the chart below is designed to give you an Idea of where things are supposed to lie on a frequency chart. (frequency is what is measured in cycles per second: therefore, A Frequency of 440hz means that it cycles 440 times every second. Make sense? If not, pick up a textbook called "AUDIO IN MEDIA." The author's last name is ALTEN.)

    Here goes:

    |____________________________________________________________________________| 20hz 1khz 20kHz The actual freqency of each note (from lowest to highest on a 6 string bass):

    B (0): 30.868hz The ()'s refer to the octaves of the notes, as per E (1): 41.203hz a standard piano. A (1): 55.000hz D (2): 73.416hz G (2): 97.999hz B (2):123.47 hz

    As a reference, you know those people who have those speakers in their cars that tend to shake windows? Those kick drums are either TRS-808 or 909 kick drums. They're nothing more than gated 40 and 30hz tones, respectively. Boom. =)

    Anyway, to counteract that BOOM effect, one would reduce the amount of bass, so as to clean up the sound. In John's case, he's covering a LOT of sonic space, so, this is why his bass amp sounds so tinny. (If you don't believe me, go see them in concert and listen to it)

    By lowering those bass tones, you lose punch. Sure, it cuts through better, but, it sounds kinda weak. What happened in the case of I&W was that the engineer knocked out some of the bass tones when recording it, but, during mix-down, Prater thought it was too weak, so, he put more back in, muddying the sound. Make sense?

    If you want to hear his bass tone minus the bass, listen to WDADU. Totally sounds like a well-executed fart. (hehe) But, at least this way, it's audible.

    Okay. Now, add to that whole sonic picture those sampled kicks on I&W. They're LOW. Very low. Oddly enough, the frequency range of a kick drum is around the same as a bass, which is why it's important to preserve some of the "Apparent Brightness" of it, so it's not just a wall of mud. The apparent brightness frequencies of a kick drum like around 300hz-3kHz.

    Now, knowing that, remember that the guitar also has to be added in. Lower end of guitar (that low end rumble) is between 60-300hz. The midrange lies around 1k-3khz.

    See what's happening yet?

    In other words, the guitar and kick drums (as well as the snare) eat up the space that the bass occupies also. If it's not properly balanced, the guitars & drums cut out those parts of the bass.

    Think about the bass as a layer cake.

    {{{{{{{ <- Highs/Upper Partials (harmonic overtones) }}}}}}}} <- Mid-Range (Some apparent brightness found here) {{{{{{{ <- lower mid-range (Apparent Brightness area) }}}}}}}} <- upper lows {{{{{{{ <- lows

    Now, if the guitar "eats" the lower mid-range, and part of the mid-range, and the kick drum takes part of the upper-lows, and part of the lows, and the EQ-ing of the mixed-down bass signal takes more of that...what are you left with?

    }}} John's bass, afterwards. }} }} {{ {{{{ Not much. If you listen to it in headphones designed to handle those low bass frequencies, you'll feel the bass. Believe me. It'll probably hurt. (If it doesn't, get your hearing checked.)

    And, if you consider that the human hearing curve tends to hear 1-5khz frequencies very well (that's about the range of most human voices, when speaking - there's exceptions, of course, but, that's about where it is), and there's no bass tones IN that frequency range, you won't hear 'em.

    Okay, more on mixing in the next mail. Any further ?'s on this, please email me directly. I think 90% of the net doesn't give a shit about this. =)



    Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:49:07 -0500 (EST) From: Hairball <> To: Subject: MIXING Message-ID: <>

    So you all know, I've been studying audio production, academically, at Temple University (as well as video and just a tiny bit of film, but, I'm obviously more interested in audio). Besides that, I've pretty much been messing with recording stuff since I was about 12 (I'm going on 23 now).

    One of my instructors is a guy named Jim Gallagher. He was an engineer for many years, working with people like the O'Jays, The Spinners, Stevie Wonder, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I admire him greatly, and consider him a mentor.

    ANYWAY: On Mixing.

    There is a certain capacity that can be held on tape. Think of a gallon container. How much can you put in a gallon container? One gallon, right? That's all it can take.

    Well, when mixing, it's important to remember this. If you want something to be the loudest in your mix, remember its "volume" relative to the overall "capacity."

    In engineering, it's a very good idea to keep things at approximately 0db. This provides an optimal signal to noise ratio (i.e. there's more signal on the tape than noise). Sure, you can bump it up to +3 or +6 db, if your tape can handle that saturation level, but, that's a whole other story. Past that, you get tape distortion (when speaking in terms of analog) and oversampling (in terms of digital - more on digital recording later).

    So, let's look at I&W. What's the loudest relative instrument? The kick drum. It occupies a TON of space. Behind that, the snare & vocals. Past that, it's hearsay, so, let's not go into a huge debate on that.

    If the drums are eating up, say, 1/2 a gallon (in the case of our 1 gallon container), the other instruments have to fit into that other 1/2 gallon.

    Now, this CD was mastered fairly "hot." In other words, it's not at 0db. It runs up to about +6 db when peaking.

    Even so, that +6 is the top capacity of our container. Putting more in causes problems.

    So, in other words, if you don't leave enough room in your container for the rest of it, things get lost. This is what happened to poor John's bass. The areas that his bass tone fell into were already occupied. Making it louder in the mix would only make things muddy and messy, and probably distort. Bad.

    Incidentally: when one sound obscures another, it's known as Masking. =)

    And regarding digital recording:

    I'll quote this directly from "AUDIO IN MEDIA," written by Stanley Alten, published by International Thomson Publishing (ITP), a Wadsworth Publishing Company. ISBN #: 0-534-19602-0.

    (This book, incidentally, is amazing. I will NEVER part with it.)

    Under "Main Points," from Chapter 8: Digital Recording; page 215.

    "The format used since modern tape recording began has been analog, which can reproduce a DYNAMIC RANGE of about 80db, much less than the human ear is capable of hearing. At this point, the digital format can deliver a DYNAMIC RANGE of up to 110db, virtually noise free."

    In other words, it can more accurately represent the frequencies put on it than analog tape.

    Problem gets to be, it can't handle extremely loud volumes. This can cause aliasing, which simply causes the recorder to shut off, and say, "I don't know what you're talking about."

    Analog, however noisy and archaic it may be, can mask or color the actual signal. Digital, on the other hand, reproduces EXACTLY what it reads.

    Oh, and if you might've been wondering about sampling rates:

    Remember the last post about the range of human hearing? Well, that 20hz to the 20kHz scale pretty much covers everything you could possibly hear, if your hearing was ABSOLUTELY PERFECT (like, when you were born), and, it covers almost all of the partials & harmonics that exist. (God, the engineers who came up with this stuff must've had a lot of time on their hands...)

    There was a guy named Harry Nyquist. He worked for Bell Labs as a researcher. (Knowing what I know about the guy, it's more like he worked AT Bell Labs than FOR them. Hehe...) Anyway, Mr. Nyquist determined that "if the highest frequency in a signal were to be successfully encoded [to digital], it had to be sampled at a rate at least twice its frequency. In other words, if high-frequency response in digital recording is to reach 20,000hz [20kHz, or kilo-hertz], the sampling frequency must be at least 40,000hz [in other words, it has to sample a minimum of 40,000 times per second to capture it]. Too low a sampling rate would cause loss of too much information and perhaps introduce distortion." (p.189, Alten)

    So, the Nyquist frequency was born.

    The formula (for the technically minded) is something like this:

    SR = 2(f) or 1/2 SR = f

    (that's the over simplified version, people)

    SR is sampling rate, f is frequency. This is why most sampling is done at 44.1k (or 44,100 times per second).

    Oh, and one other thing, to Doc, specifically:

    A hypercardioid microphone is a great choice of mikes for live "bootleg" recordings, as they do help to eliminate most background and crowd noise as you suggested. However, one built in a shotgun configuration is a little difficult to sneak into a concert venue, let alone two for stereo. And, if it were indeed a condensor or capacitor microphone of professional caliber, how would you propose to provide 48 volts for phantom power without a mixer or a separate power unit? And how would one get that in?

    In terms of practicality, it's not all that viable. =)

    Thanks all; Sorry to carry on endlessly, but, someone asked for it. <grin> Have a pleasant existance, -Hairball


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