YTSEJAM Digest 2510
Today's Topics:
1) Losing on the roundabouts
by Brian Henderson <Cyberburlap@icdc.com>
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2505
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
3) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2507
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2506
by ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee)
5) Fates Warning Info
by Michael Kizer <mkizer@goodnet.com>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2507
by ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee)
7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2508
by ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee)
8) APSOG vs. ACOS
by Christopher Bellardine <chris154@clam.rutgers.edu>
9) G3 and forms of Prog...
by jusenkyo@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Shane Liebling)
10) calc.exe. Where are my opinions again?
by "Raivo Hool" <raitz@guvatrak.ee>
11) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2509
by STUMARZEE@aol.com
12) this is the jam
by prmrkstx@hotmail.com (dexter)
13) new fW and flames
by petedz@interaccess.com
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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:26:17 -0400
From: Brian Henderson <Cyberburlap@icdc.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Losing on the roundabouts
Message-ID: <199704251626.MAA32092@darkstar.icdc.com>
>can anyone tell me what the following bands have in common:
>-van halen
>-heart
>-bela fleck and the flecktones
Easy. All three have a bassist...
In the tradition of Ytsejam poor album reviewing techniques, I'd just like
to say that I picked up the new Fates and it RULES!! 'Nuff said.
At the same time of FW-purchase, I snagged myself a Jethro Tull "Stormwatch"
for the piddling sum of $5.99. Woob woob woob. At this rate, I ought to
have all 50 million Tull albums by the turn of the century. I get the
impression JT ain't too big on this list (probably because they "stole" the
Grammy from Metallica!), but if anyone's interested, they're gearing up for
another tour. Mostly European dates, I believe, but there's a few US as
well. Don't have 'em offhand, but for anyone who wants more definition to
their condition, check around the fabulous "Internet" or mail me.
Speaking of mailing me, incredible transitions aside, would anybody with any
info whatsoever on the following piece of equipment please drop me a line...
"Yamaha Portasound PSS-560 Multiprogramable Keyboard"
Tanks.
Brian Henderson, Cyberburlap Bound Saurez
Cyberburlap@icdc.com
"...case o' Ho-Hos, thirty-seven bags o' tater chips - you know, something
to hold you over." -- Canby
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:57:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2505
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970425154828.45538B-100000@elk.uvm.edu>
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 ytsejam@ax.com wrote:
>
> No, but very VERY ignorant. Somebody on this list actually has the
> courage to not venerate Fates Warning or some other two-bit prog metal
> outfit.. I guess this is what should be expected.
>
I don't think it was a question of courage. The way the original critique
was phrased was vague and unconstructive.
Hey, guess what. Fates is ok, but terribly overrated. And Savatage
> sucks. Hell, even DT has some pretty weak material out there.
I'm not a big Fates fan either. The snippets I've heard of the new album
sound much better than the other limited selection of their stuff that
I've heard, but I'll need to hear the whole album before passing judgement.
> It's hard enough for a lot of these bands to sell albums without
> pompous fans turning off anybody who isn't a diehard like they are.
> Attitudes like yours are a very good reason why I will not be checking out
> the new Fates album anytime soon, chiefly because drooling fanaticism
> turns off many people (witness why most of progdom hates Rush) and because
> the one time somebody offered a dissenting opinion from "Fatez Roolz" they
> got shit on.
>
Personally, I NEVER let other people's attiudes affect the kind of music
I buy. If that was the case, I wouldn't own half the CDs that I do. So
does that mean that you won't by the new DT album when it comes out
simply because a lot of people on this list are going to engage in "drooling
fanaticism?"
Richie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:37:44 -0400
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2507
Message-ID: <19970426043736.AAA24353@mail.pananet.com>
> I have never heard anything by Fates that has sounded like it was
>ripping another band off.
Howz about the end to 'Life in Still Water'? Everytime I hear it, I swer
it's gonna go into 'Screaming in Digital':)
And while Im on the same subject, everytime i listen to the beginning of
'Precious Things' by Tori, I thing Hemispheres is gonna start...
wowie zowie
thankyouverymuch
Ernie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2506
Message-ID: <199704260602.CAA02314@freenet3.carleton.ca>
Pat Daugherty mumbles:
>Ok, Ostrich and Gordon have given their opionion. Obviously they are just
>posting to start a flame war with the rest of the jam. They could have
>just said they didn't like it in a civilized manner (like a couple of
>jammers did) but to say it like the way these two did, they just deserve
>no respect from anyone.
Actually if you were capable of reading you'd have noticed I
didn't flame the album--I haven't heard it. I flamed the people who flamed
the person who didn't like the album, not because of anything he said, but
BECAUSE he did not like the album. (that wasn't too fast for you was it?)
I do not ask for respect from a wank like you. You hang around
r.m.a.q. waiting for somebody to mention Dream Theater so that you can
start a flame war there about how much better DT is than QR. If you
respected me that would mean I was doing something seriously wrong.
Syrinx's original post was moderate. Ptacek and others chose to
elevate it into a flame war. If you didn't recognize that you're either A)
an idiot or B) sticking up for your friends, one of whom I must have just
insulted. Either way, your opinion is noted and discarded.
-- "To seek the sacred river Alph, and walk the caves of ice..." - Rush "Ashes and Diamonds,Foe and Friend/We were all equal in the end." -Pink Floyd "The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change." - Genesis "Others steal your thoughts they're not confined within your mind"-DreamTheater------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:59:21 -0700 From: Michael Kizer <mkizer@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Fates Warning Info Message-ID: <336199B9.9C@goodnet.com>
Here is some info from Metal Blade Records:
> unfortunately the Corona show is being rescheduled probably for July. Bummer....
> But I did find out the band will be shooting a video! I didn't think > it was going to happen. Very cool... I wonder for which part? Can we hope for the whole thing? <G> > Regarding finding the record people can order directly from us, but it is > also end capped in Best Buy. Also tell people to bug their local record > stores and if they tell me which stores don't have the record we can work on > that here. So for all of you having problems finding the album, check out Best Buy. If you can't find it at any major chains (or other smaller shops I suppose), bug them and let me know... I'll forward it on to Metal Blade....
Later, -- ~Michael Kizer (Tucson, AZ) -- mkizer@goodnet.com URL: http://www.goodnet.com/~mkizer Fates Warning (Island In The Stream) / Dream Theater ("Unofficial" Song Book) "Close our eyes a while as the morning shadows play And listen to the rain wash the long night away Face to face we'll awake to see another day And with hope in our hearts, embrace this shade of gray..." - A Pleasant Shade Of Gray (Fates Warning)
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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2507 Message-ID: <199704260622.CAA05280@freenet3.carleton.ca>
>>and because the one time somebody offered a dissenting opinion from "Fatez >>Roolz" they got shit on. > I didn't shit on anyone. I disagreed with a few of his poinst, and >never, at any time, said that his opinions were not acceptable,
Not everything has to do with you :). I believe I was referring to the giant finger in that post, and I'm sorry, but it was ignorant. If you don't agree on that simple truth I doubt we'll get much accomplished. I'm not aiming for a big fight here. However there is a big difference (to me, at least) between musical debate (like we're having below) and making decisions about somebody based on their post (ie the "jaded" remark). Now you have said you were in error for that part, so I have no reason to be upset anymore. Just keep in mind, if you discount everything else I say, that arguing opinions (even whether they are acceptable) is just fine, it's when you start psychoanalyzing the person you are arguing with that you go too far. Just MHO.
>>From: ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee) > I have never heard anything by Fates that has sounded like it was >ripping another band off. And after Arch, every album is dramatically >different. The first two FW albums are metal... not really prog... but at >the time they were released, there was no other band to my knowledge playing >the same style of metal, in the same way.
I do not have much Fates to go on (I own Awaken The Guardian on tape, No Exit and Chasing Time on CD) but the material from Arch sounds very much like Queensryche and Iron Maiden. The stuff I've heard from Alder often varies in content but I can't say it's particularly innovative beyond the prog metal scene. Of course that is because the stuff from _No Exit_ bores me to tears and the stuff from _Chasing Time_ is probably their poppier.. ergo I would not have heard their "B-side" stuff (?).
> There is no band in existence that is not influenced by another >band, or musician. That doesn't make one unoriginal. Basically, I'm saying >that I don't believe there is another band that one can compare Fates to >that will support saying "Fates is unoriginal". I can be wrong too... but >my experience (and I love metal music and have been buying it forever) leads >me to this conclusion.
Well influences vary in their intensity. For example Magma was influenced by Coltrane and Wagnerian opera but that isn't as obvious in their music as say, Iron Maiden on Queensryche(early). I don't speak of originality in "no other metal band" sense but rather in the "gee these guys are hard to categorize" sense. I don't think Fates has the second kind of originality. HOWEVER I have not heard APSoG.
>> This mailing list. Right behind Labrie and Tate usually. Here the >>best metal vocalist is a HIGH metal vocalist.. > This is a true statement, although the new FW has little singing in >the higher ranges.
I will say one thing for Fate's Warning, I think _Monument_ is an incredible song. Unfortunately the albums I've bought by them have not delivered the promise they seem to make at times.
-- "To seek the sacred river Alph, and walk the caves of ice..." - Rush "Ashes and Diamonds,Foe and Friend/We were all equal in the end." -Pink Floyd "The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change." - Genesis "Others steal your thoughts they're not confined within your mind"-DreamTheater
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:39:10 -0400 (EDT) From: ai292@freenet.carleton.ca (Gordon McFee) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2508 Message-ID: <199704260639.CAA07877@freenet3.carleton.ca>
>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Gordon McFee wrote: >No, I think by any practical standard, Fates is one of the most underrated >bands there's ever been. You just happen to be in a place where people >give them the respect they deserve. Calling them a two-bit prog band is >inflammatory, and will probably get you flamed. Now, maybe you like >flamewars, but others of us find them very irritating and will not thank >you for it.
"By any practical standard"? That should be rephrased as "By the standard of me, Anton Max". I don't find FW underrated, especially here, and I'm sure I could ge ta petition up and running and get you a few more names to add to mine. What I find irritating is 8 or 9 jams in a row with "Fates Warning is awesome" messages. I'm aware this isn't the most on-topic list on earth but this is ridiculous. The finger was a flame. My post was a response to that. With the chain of events firmly in mind, can't you see I am not starting anything?
>Other people offered dissenting opinions. Several of them in fact. They >didn't get shit on, because they offered their opinions with some tact.
So Syrinx' opinion was alright, just his style turned you off? (Just as mine probably does). Well sorry, but not everybody is going to say "I bought APSoG today. It had very good dynamics but I thought the rhythym section wasn't as tight as they could be, Alder wasn't challenging the upper reaches of audible sound and I just feel that the album could have been more exciting". Some people will say "Got the new album, Alder didn't sing, it was BOORRRING". They are the same statement. If you find problem with one and not the other, it is in fact you who has the problem.
>From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu>
>excellent to each other!" Remember why we're here. We're here to get more >information on Dream Theater and related stuff, and show how great DT's fans
I was trying to do that the other day, but instead I saw 27 messages about APSoG (not exact calculation, only my meagre estimation). -----------Somebody Else Said------------ >Okay, here's what I'd like you to understand. >It's lonely being a FW fan. This list is one of the very few places where
Unfortunately this isn't the Fatsejam. I didn't mind the first few reviews.. I was interested myself actually. But this is too much. Rave review after rave review... and then when somebody disagrees, it's like flies after shit.
-- "To seek the sacred river Alph, and walk the caves of ice..." - Rush "Ashes and Diamonds,Foe and Friend/We were all equal in the end." -Pink Floyd "The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change." - Genesis "Others steal your thoughts they're not confined within your mind"-DreamTheater
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 97 2:38:19 EDT From: Christopher Bellardine <chris154@clam.rutgers.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: APSOG vs. ACOS Message-ID: <CMM-RU.1.5.862036699.chris154@clam.rutgers.edu>
song is fantastic. I've been reading for a few days that the new Fates is the best album since I&W. Hello, Jammers: But ACOS was released in 95, and it's 23 mins. IMO are better than the 53 mins. on the new Fates. With that being said. I think APSOG is the best release since A Change of Seasons, but since this IMO the most complete DT song, APSOG falls short only to the "Masters" of progressive metal (DT). Fates is effin awesome, and I'd like to thank this list for giving insight to it. Does anybody agree that ACOS gets and A++ whereas APSOG gets an A.
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Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:53:20 -0700 From: jusenkyo@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Shane Liebling) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: G3 and forms of Prog... Message-ID: <v02130500af8763de918c@[128.32.100.59]>
First order of business:
Anyone going to the August 1 G3 concert in Concord?
Final order of business:
I was wondering what people's opinions are abot the "proginess" of techno music. For the most part I would say it is low level if any, but I just recently picked up Orbital's newest In Sides, and it has a 28:11 version of their "hit" "The Box." I definitely feel that at least this one song/version is prog (or at least in my mind). Any comments?
-Shane Currently listening to: Orbital "In Sides"
______________________________________________________________________________ I Shane Liebling I I was told there's a miracle for each I I jusenkyo@uclink4.berkeley.edu I day that I try. I was told there's a I I http://www.earthlink.net/~mariachi I new love that's born for each one I I CAA Tweeker & Ytsejammer I that has died... Love is the Dance of I I Member of A.M.M.O. since 1997 I Eternity."Metropolis" - Dream Theater I ______________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:38:22 +0200 From: "Raivo Hool" <raitz@guvatrak.ee> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: calc.exe. Where are my opinions again? Message-ID: <199704251552.SAA03583@lahmaat.guvatrak.ee>
> posting to start a flame war with the rest of the jam. They could > have just said they didn't like it in a civilized manner (like a > couple of jammers did) but to say it like the way these two did, > they just deserve no respect from anyone.
Some guys were considered very cool a month ago for almost the same words as those two used. Subject: Hear In The Now Frontier.
There's no reason to start a nitpicking session here.
I haven't heard much of Fates Warning. In fact, I've only heard Parallels. I didn't like it very much. I haven't checked out the other ones yet. I gave Perfect Symmetry a listen at a record store one day and I somewhat liked it, except for the vocals.
Now where was I?
I've heard a gazillion of rave reviews about Fates' new album. Fine, I think. They'll calm down in a while and in a year or so, it's just another album in their collection. Why bother? Imagine how many of the jammers are into some amazing music that they haven't hollered about on the Jam?
Then, some guy honestly says he thinks the album blows chunks. Fine, I think. He's got the guts to differ from the masses. He's not too shy and picky with words. Maybe not my style, as you may have already guessed, but he deserves respect nonetheless.
That's where the trouble begins. How come those potentially open-minded and big-mouthed jammers here tend to be just as close- minded as everybody else out there? A month ago it was cool to dis those who liked the new Queensryche album. "What, you actually like it? Get outta here, the Jam is not the place where you can get away with liking alternative." Now, the tables have turned. One must love the new, long awaited album from Fates Warning, otherwise (s)he'll automatically be added to the "List of Uncool People of the Ytsejam". Somehow it makes me biased. I'm sure it makes many other people biased too.
To paraphrase the infamous quote, "Love and let hate".
If you realize that you see horizon too near, maybe you'd better check your viewpoint.
Do not click here to continue.
Raitz
Be reasonable -- demand the impossible!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:07:32 -0400 (EDT) From: STUMARZEE@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2509 Message-ID: <970426090731_1953085586@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Hey guys,
It really sucks being away from home but now at least I can read the jam on my uncle's computer. AOL really sucks. I hope I remember to unsubscribe though, or you may get some really weird posts soon...:)
Some guy said: >recall my post about having probs finding it and all, >but I didn't go into a small novel explaining what the moving parts >of it to me were. Why? Because I really don't think anyone cares is >why.
I care. The more wonderful reviews I see for an album the more likely I am to buy it. This is how I got into so many of the great bands I've gotten off the jam...Lemur Voice, Superior, Fates, Shadow Gallery etc. All of these bands have had multiple positive reviews as opposed to one lone poster. The more reviews the better I say. They're %100 better than flame wars or talking about MP taking a shit.
>Ya know? Put your useful info first and then ramble on. Some other >people on this list aren't fond of Fates, so deal with it.
Actually I'm afraid you're the one who's going to have to deal with it. When you signed up to this list you should have read the little letter that said DT and related topics. And since Fates is obviously a related topic you're going to have to skip some more of those messages.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:59:06 -0500 From: prmrkstx@hotmail.com (dexter) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: this is the jam Message-ID: <v01520d01af87c818fe95@[207.92.159.109]>
been here a while and just came across something that can be applied to this list. well sort of applies but with different content. read on and you will see. anyway I'll go back to lurking, which is usually just skimming the jams b4 trashing them.
here goes.......
Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 1,331:
1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
53 to flame the spell checkers
156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.
41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list.
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty.
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs
14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs.
3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.
33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too."
12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey.
19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here.
143 votes for alt.lite.bulb.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:38:59 -0500 From: petedz@interaccess.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: new fW and flames Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970426143859.00690d70@pop.interaccess.com>
>Personally I've gotten really tired of what seems like >everyone just saying they like it just to show how hip they are.
Funny...I thought it was because APSoG is a good album. I didn't realize that people post to mailing lists to be hip. Typing away at a keyboard doesn't really seem like a super cool, trendy thing to do. Fun maybe, but not hip. :)
> A month ago it was cool to dis >those who liked the new Queensryche album. "What, you actually like >it? Get outta here, the Jam is not the place where you can get away >with liking alternative." Now, the tables have turned. One must love >the new, long awaited album from Fates Warning, otherwise (s)he'll >automatically be added to the "List of Uncool People of the Ytsejam".
I seem to remember things differently. From the posts I read, the majority opinion was that the new Queensryche album was good. A vocal minority (myself included) hated it, and were flamed for stating our opinion. It's a relief to hear you say that the new Queensryche is an alternative album, though. :D
I don't think anyone consciously or unconsciously keeps lists of "uncool" people on the list. That would be pretty weak. This mailing list is just a very long conversation, folks.
If some people here like alternative, that's fine. Nobody is telling anyone to leave!
Dream Theater makes technically complex music. It follows that on this list, alternative music will be judged based on it's technical merits rather than it's image, attitude, or whatever the heck it is that alternative has going for it.
If technically challenging alternative music exists, I haven't heard it. In fact, I was under the impression that like punk, part of the schtick is that they can't play very well...and it seems logical to me that people who like complex music will tend to dislike incompetent musicians. If I'm way off base, I'm sure somebody will correct me.... (ducking to avoid thrown objects)
My point is that this list predictably has a predisposition toward liking a Fates Warning album and disliking alternative. Why do some people get so overwrought when this predisposition asserts itself?
-- Pete Dziadzka
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2510 **************************
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