YTSEJAM Digest 2508
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Response... don't read if you're easily upset
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
2) Re: aPSoG and AOL and stuff
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
3) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2506
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2503
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
5) new cd's
by Jan van Huizen <aurora@wirehub.nl>
6) Re: the new Fates
by mamalookabubuday@juno.com (Scott Cook)
7) tray liner mystery REVEALED! (APSoG spoiler)
by Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu>
8) Re: hatred rules
by Syrinx <syrinx@dreamt.org>
9) James.....well, not really
by Quazel Schmirt <jmlentch@mailbox.syr.edu>
10) Flame wars, Kiss the Schlong ;)~
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu>
11) Can Fates Warning be an opener now?
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
12) Re: the new Fates
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
13) Re: tray liner mystery REVEALED! (APSoG spoiler)
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
14) NOT!!! You CANNOT get a virus by reading e-mail-NDTC
by Randall Braun <RBraun@adnc.ameridata.com>
15) New Clockwork CD...
by "Anthony N. Sciamanna" <st96d6z4@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu>
16) MOTHER OF SHIT!!! FATES WARNING!!!
by Jason L Luscher <luscher@student.umass.edu>
17) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2493
by AJDRUMS@aol.com
18) Re: AOL Virus
by Jeff Forte <araby@ibm.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:54:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Response... don't read if you're easily upset
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970425134316.4609A-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Chris Ptacek wrote:
> > wow. i didn't know i had a bias.
> You just said that the band has not done anything original since
> 1980. That implies a definite bias, yes. Is there something wrong with
> pointing that out? I don't think it's an insult.
>
I think he was talking about Yes not doing anything original since 1980.
Syrinx wrote:
> > 3: If you don't like a vocalist that Chris likes, he will say
> >that such vocalist is "..generally regarded as one of the best metal
> >vocalists around." really? i'd like to know who "general regards him."
Me.
But he's not one of the best, he's the best.
As regards this whole flamewar thing, I think it results from
a) a misinterpretation of the "nothing original since 1980 comment"
b) an overly harsh review of APSoG, which was poorly constructed and
thus seemed inflamatory (they did not just repeat a theme for the entire
album, anyone with ears can hear that)
c) the finger, while i found it mildly amusing, was uncalled for.
To sum up, this whole thing is silly. I suggest we let nothing bleed into
nothing.
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: aPSoG and AOL and stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970425135634.4609B-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Loren Caler wrote:
> P.S. Someone tell me, what is hiding on the inside cover? In the fuzzy
> waterdrops there are 2 shapes that I can't make out.
You mean the dancing girls on page 2? Probably not, there are more than 2
of those.
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
ps. no there aren't really dancing girls. it's just water. but if you look
at it right, they're dancing girls.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:02:27 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2506
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970425180227.00c11ae0@pop.enteract.com>
>Chris: I think he meant that YES hasn't done anything original since 1980 ??
Exactly. I misread this, and have apologized to him prvately, and
now, publicly for the mistake. But I stand by everything else that i said.
>> It's perfectly okay to dislike the new album. Subtlerage did it
>> before you did. But saying that there's no change, and the album is
>> repetitious is just plain incorrect. As well, saying that the band is
>> unoriginal (since 1980) is a falsehood.
>
>actually, saying the above statements constitutes an opinion.
Okay, you can call it an opinion, but it can be factually documented
as incorrect. If my opinion is that James LaBrie's vocal range is only one
octave, my "opinion" can be proven wrong.
>From: "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org>
>Subject: hatred rules
>>i think it's funny that if 100 people post about how great the
>>new album is, that's fine. 1 person gives his opinion about their
>>dislike of the album..and this what he gets.
>
>right on. or how about when we saw 5 BILLION disliking posts of HItnF. it
>was like the other way around. i say: GO ON AND HATE IT! as long as its
>pushing the mainstream of a situation, i never seem to have a problem with
>it. now if i saw 5000 posts about people who hate it, then there'd be a
>different story. but hell, one guy dislikes it, i think its good for the
floor.
Do I need to say again that I don't disagree with his right to
dislike a band? All I'm saying is that if you make false claims, they can
and will likely be proven wrong. That and the tone of some of the things
Mike said, I believe was written solely to stir up a fight. When you say
"Ray Alder can't sing", it's like saying "Mike Portnoy can't play the
drums". It's the kind of opinion that is obviously stated to cause trouble.
OBVIOUSLY Ray CAN sing... if you don't like his singing, that's another
story. And if you re-read my post, I didn't even really argue with him
saying this... I just gave an example of why the statement was in poor taste.
>From: NuGgeTMaN <emoeglin@infinite.wezl.org>
>Subject: Re: The sad state of affairs.
>I mean if one isn't allowed to
>have an opinion then why the fuck are we here??? Just cause the majority
>of you don't agree with Syrinx doesn't mean his opinion is wrong...
Please see what I said in response to Rip. Opinions are cool. Make
your own... that's very important. I did not supress anyone's opinions. I
merely disagreed with some things that were offered as facts, and disagreed
with the manner in which his opinions were brought forth.
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:14:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2503
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970425140725.4609C-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Gordon McFee wrote:
> No, but very VERY ignorant. Somebody on this list actually has the
> courage to not venerate Fates Warning or some other two-bit prog metal
> outfit.. I guess this is what should be expected.
> Hey, guess what. Fates is ok, but terribly overrated. And Savatage
> sucks. Hell, even DT has some pretty weak material out there.
No, I think by any practical standard, Fates is one of the most underrated
bands there's ever been. You just happen to be in a place where people
give them the respect they deserve. Calling them a two-bit prog band is
inflammatory, and will probably get you flamed. Now, maybe you like
flamewars, but others of us find them very irritating and will not thank
you for it.
> It's hard enough for a lot of these bands to sell albums without
> pompous fans turning off anybody who isn't a diehard like they are.
> Attitudes like yours are a very good reason why I will not be checking out
> the new Fates album anytime soon, chiefly because drooling fanaticism
> turns off many people (witness why most of progdom hates Rush) and because
> the one time somebody offered a dissenting opinion from "Fatez Roolz" they
> got shit on.
Other people offered dissenting opinions. Several of them in fact. They
didn't get shit on, because they offered their opinions with some tact.
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 20:12:26 +0200
From: Jan van Huizen <aurora@wirehub.nl>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: new cd's
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19950425181226.0068f13c@mail.wirehub.nl>
Hi,
After a week searching for the new Fates I finally got it. For all you FW
fans in Rotterdam, I got it at Plato (Meent). It's a digipack btw. To go
with it, I got me some more CD's:
- The Eleventh Hour by Fatal Opera
- Perfect Life? by Mindfeed
- Is There Anything About? by Brand X (don't know if I like this stuff, have
to wait and see).
Great, got some more CD's in the mail today :
- Sign Of The Times by Queensryche
- Extinct Instinct by Threshold
- Soul Seasons by Sanvoisen
- Christmas Eve and Other Stories by Trans-Siberian Orchestra
- The More Things Change by Machine Head (including a cool flag) !
This is gonna be a great weekend, listening to all the new stuff. I'll let
you know after the weekend what I think of them.
I'll be at the G3 concert in Ahoy'. Hope to see some of you there (speaking
to the Dutch jammers of course).
Cya,
--Aurora--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:24:54 EDT
From: mamalookabubuday@juno.com (Scott Cook)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: the new Fates
Message-ID: <19970425.112539.8686.1.Mamalookabubuday@juno.com>
>Ok, Ostrich and Gordon have given their opionion. Obviously they are
>just posting to start a flame war with the rest of the jam. Theater
Considering the posts in favor of the new cd I think it was probably
a reaction more than anything. I like Fates myself, but the Fates
Warning love fest has gotten so out of control sometimes I think I'm
gonna puke! This isn't directed towards Pat or anyone in particular,
I've just gotten tired of hearing about it. It kind of reminds me when
Arch was on the jam last year and this became the Fatesjam for
a while.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:25:07 -0700
From: Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: tray liner mystery REVEALED! (APSoG spoiler)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425112504.006e1fbc@cats.ucsc.edu>
:)
After carefuil examination, the mutated photo under the tray _IS_ the guy
from the cover, as seen in the top right photo, where he is standing,
looking to the side (outside a window or something) The figure is
distorted, so everything is fatter and blobbier than on the cover by far.
Start at the CD holder nubbins, go immediately right. You will see a
series of four horizontal blobs. These are his fingers. straight up from
these is an upside down V-shaped blob in dark. This is tha shadow on the
guy's nose. You should then be able to trace the line of his coat down
then pretty easily. The rectangular blob to the left and below the nubs is
the wall behind him, which lines up with the lighter vertical blob towards
the top, which is the line running down the wall from the cover.
You're welcome. :)
And I'm also inclined to agree that the alarm clock is not to signal that
the song was a dream. It's far too lucid to be a dream-state song. The
real-time thoughts of a person waking up before their alarm is an
interesting idea, and if that's what Jim said I'll go with that. I thought
it was a person staying up all night.
__ /\ __
__\/__\/__ ~Chris
\_||_/ http://www2.ucsc.edu/people/aspect/
/__||__\
// \ | \\ "Let nothing bleed into nothing, and did nothing at all"
\| Jim Matheos, Fates Warning, "A Pleasant Shade of Gray"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Syrinx <syrinx@dreamt.org>
To: "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org>
Subject: Re: hatred rules
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970425143426.8202A-100000@astro.ocis.temple.edu>
> >i think it's funny that if 100 people post about how great the
> >new album is, that's fine. 1 person gives his opinion about their
> >dislike of the album..and this what he gets.
>
> right on. or how about when we saw 5 BILLION disliking posts of HItnF. it
> was like the other way around. i say: GO ON AND HATE IT! as long as its
> pushing the mainstream of a situation, i never seem to have a problem with
> it. now if i saw 5000 posts about people who hate it, then there'd be a
> different story. but hell, one guy dislikes it, i think its good for the floor.
>
that's exactly my point.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:18:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Quazel Schmirt <jmlentch@mailbox.syr.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: James.....well, not really
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970425131032.23490A-100000@gamera.syr.edu>
Hi all. I apologize for telling a story but it was really strange.
It has been one of those days already. Long, boring 8:30 theory
class, two hours writing marching band drill, computer music in history
class, it has been a real winner already! Anyway, I sacked out after
class in the lounge in my music school. I am laying there in a state
probably more dead than alive when this guy walks by. He catches my eye
and I knew I recognized him but hadn't a clue as to where from (brain has
been fried by this time). As he walks down the hall, my brain suddenly
screamed "James LaBrie you idiot!!!!!!" I followed his path but he was
exiting the building before I spotted him. Now, I am sure it wasn't him
but he has got one hell of a twin. I know this story has no reason to be
told but hell, I need something to keep me awake before ensemble!
Besides, what would he be doing here? Maybe I was half dreaming and
didn't realize it. Whatever, this guy looked EXACTLY like him. I wonder
why I have never seen him before!
Jill ----------- Quazel
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:10:08 -0700
From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Flame wars, Kiss the Schlong ;)~
Message-ID: <199704251910.MAA27194@jamaica.u.arizona.edu>
Flame wars
Flame wars
Roly, poly flame wars
Flame wars
Flame wars
Light 'em up, BURN!
Anyone recognize this? Hope we have some old-school Dr. Demento
fans here. Anyway, come on guys, we don't need flame wars here. I've
partaken in those before, and they suck. All you're doing is waving your
cyber-dick around like a dumbass claiming your opinion is THE FACT. Come
on, that's really childish IMHO. Quoting the ever-wise Bill and Ted, "Be
excellent to each other!" Remember why we're here. We're here to get more
information on Dream Theater and related stuff, and show how great DT's fans
really are. Aside from the flame wars, this list rocks.
Anyway, my order from KTS came in yesterday. Man, order something
from these guys now!!! I didn't get the DT disc I wanted, but the DT 2 disc
set I got, "Lords of Sound" rocks all nadz. It's got the same sound quality
as the LiT video, but the keyboards are louder. Also, there's this
"instrumental jam" track on it. Heheh, it's EVE!!! LIVE!!! Oh, that made
my day! I alos ordered a truly excellent Metallica boot from the "Live
Shit" tour. I've never heard "Disposable Heroes" live, but I have a
newfound respect for Jaymz' picking arm strength.
KTS quality sounds almost like official live CDs released from the
record companies. If you haven't ordered anything from these guys yet, DO
IT!!! It's the best value out there for live CDs now!
Peace and love and good happiness stuff,
~Vince
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Can Fates Warning be an opener now?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970425160958.16306B-100000@bdmserver>
I was just thinking... Can Fates Warning open for anyone now? I mean they
can either just play the new album and no old stuff. The time of the new
album is a little too much for an opener. They could play parts of the
new album and some old stuff but can parts of APSOG be played without the
rest of the cd?????
This is an interesting dilemma....
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com |
|=======================================================================|
| "Every breath leaves me one less to my last" --Dream Theater |
| "That is not an option, Mr. Mulder" --X-Files |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: the new Fates
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970425161220.4609F-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Scott Cook wrote:
> Considering the posts in favor of the new cd I think it was probably
> a reaction more than anything. I like Fates myself, but the Fates
> Warning love fest has gotten so out of control sometimes I think I'm
> gonna puke! This isn't directed towards Pat or anyone in particular,
> I've just gotten tired of hearing about it. It kind of reminds me when
> Arch was on the jam last year and this became the Fatesjam for
> a while.
>
Okay, here's what I'd like you to understand.
It's lonely being a FW fan. This list is one of the very few places where
we can talk about stuff like APSOG and find other people who
a) have heard it
b) like it
c) are eager to discuss it.
Now, a new Fates album comes out, what, every two or three years?
And an album like *this* is pretty damn rare.
Plus, we're all dying for something to talk about since most of us don't
live in europe so we can't see the fix shows and there hasn't been a new
DT album in a real long time.
And it's not like we're talking about Gwar or some totally non-DT related
band here. Fates and DT go way, way back. Kevin plays on Perfect Symmetry
and APSOG, James sang on Parallels, they've toured together, Mike P is an
honorary Fates member, John Arch auditioned for DT, ACOS is influenced by
the Ivory Gate of Dreams, APSOG is influenced by Images & Words, etc. etc.
etc.
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:33:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: tray liner mystery REVEALED! (APSoG spoiler)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970425162658.4609G-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Chris Oates wrote:
> And I'm also inclined to agree that the alarm clock is not to signal that
> the song was a dream. It's far too lucid to be a dream-state song. The
> real-time thoughts of a person waking up before their alarm is an
> interesting idea, and if that's what Jim said I'll go with that. I thought
> it was a person staying up all night.
>
Ok, I paraphrased and extrapolated a tiny bit when I gave my theory on the
matter. Here are Jim's exact words (from IRC):
(TimA) can you say what the lyrics will be about?
(Matheos) To Tima: That would be kind of hard to summarize in a few
words.. I will say that it takes place in real time
(Matheos) in other words, if the album is 50 minutes long, the lyrics
would be like a person's thought process in a 50 minute time span
The transcript of the whole IRC session is at
http://www.rsabbs.com/fates/irc.html
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:06:13 -0500
From: Randall Braun <RBraun@adnc.ameridata.com>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: NOT!!! You CANNOT get a virus by reading e-mail-NDTC
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GE%l=AMERIDATA/ADNC/00204B2F@msb01ncadctmsge.ameridata.com>
Quoth 2505...You CANNOT get a virus by reading e-mail. Period. Of course
like someone else said, if you have auto-exec on your
e-mail............I'll send you the virus myself! ;).
Reply...This is not exactly true. If you open email attachments with an
external viewer (i.e., your word processor, etc.) you can get any virus
associated with the attachment. This is, in fact, how a lot of the macro
viruses are spread. This is especially true in a corporate environment,
such as I work in, where a lot of documents, spreadsheets, etc. are sent as
email attachments, and almost everyone uses the same office application
suites.
-Randall
email: Randall.Braun@gecits.ge.com
**"I'm looking California and feeling Minnesota" from "Outshined" by
Soundgarden**
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:50:46 -0500
From: "Anthony N. Sciamanna" <st96d6z4@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: New Clockwork CD...
Message-ID: <v03007801af86d70324d7@DialupEudora>
Hello fellow Jammers,
The new Clockwork CD will be available on Tuesday, May 6th. We are now
taking pre-orders. If you want one e-mail me and I'll send you the info or
you can check our web page (the info should be up later tonight or
tomorrow).
Later,
***********************************
* Anthony Sciamanna *
* Drums and Percussion *
* CLOCKWORK *
* st96d6z4@post.drexel.edu *
* http://www.netti.fi/~japi/ *
***********************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:47:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason L Luscher <luscher@student.umass.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: MOTHER OF SHIT!!! FATES WARNING!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970425174116.7411A-100000@emily.oit.umass.edu>
This post is coming a few days late I'm sure, but I haven't been
able to think coherently since I heard the new Fates Warning four days
ago. I've just been sitting in a pile of my own mess because I was
afraid if I got up to go to the bathroom I might miss something during
the sixty two times I've repeated it. This album is so good that I can't
even begin to explain it. I love every part. I just hope I get sick of it
soon because it's making me miss classes and forget to do homework. I
just want to sit and listen to the oh so creamy goodness of Fatez <drool>
-Jason
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:16:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: AJDRUMS@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2493
Message-ID: <970425181653_-1199441388@emout03.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 97-04-23 04:05:51 EDT, you write:
<< ate: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 00:32:18 -0500
From: strategy@45150.com (Jeff Keifling)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: This list does...
Message-ID: <v01530504af834efbb5de@[207.79.6.165]>
<people in >>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:32:00 -0400
From: Jeff Forte <araby@ibm.net>
To: Ytsejam Mailing list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: AOL Virus
Message-ID: <336130E0.F02847F1@ibm.net>
> "THERE IS A NEW AOL SCAM."It is essential that this problem be reconciled
> as
> soon as possible. A few hours ago, I opened an E-mail that had the
> subject
> heading of aol4free.com Within seconds of opening it, a window appeared
> and
> began to display my files that were being deleted. I immediately shut
> down
> my computer, but it was too late. This virus wiped me out. It ate the
> Anti-Virus Software that comes with the Windows '95 Program along with
> F-Prot
> AVS. Neither was able to detect it. Please be careful and send this to
> as
> many people as possible, so maybe this new virus can be eliminated."
>
-- Well, the reason people say that this is a hoax is because the offending file isn't a virus...its something called a "Trojan Horse". This basically means that it is useful code with malicious commands inside. I've heard that at the end of the program there are about 6 commands that will delete the files in your root directory. Just opening the e-mail will not run the code, unless you have the e-mail client set to open all attachments as you read the message (which isn't a great thing to do either). Virus programs wont pick it up because it isn't a virus, its just a string of commands. I am a firm believer in the idea that the stuff like the "Good Times" Virus should clog mailing list like this, but I have heard of this and I thought I should let you all know.All flames are welcome....I don't get any mail and I need something to justify the cost of this account. Laterz.
Chambers aka Jeff Forte *************** araby@ibm.net
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2508 **************************
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