YTSEJAM Digest 2606
Today's Topics:
1) Re: If Conception is the new Queensrÿche...
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
2) Oh but I am
by strategy@45150.com (Jeff Keifling)
3) Magellan/Test Of Wills?
by wjwomack@tddeng00.fnts.com (Wade J. Womack)
4) Mindfeed (ex-Threshold)
by Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com>
5) DT Tour Dates
by Todd Turbedsky <Tturbedsky@Telespecnt1.Telespec.com>
6) Silent Man and Lie SIngles
by Marcelo Vanzin <vanzin@geocities.com>
7) PT DTOW
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
8) Re: Cascade of Posts Signifying Nothing
by Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
9) Re: Helmet
by Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
10) Re: Mindfeed (ex-Threshold)
by Keiji.Nishihara@ma1.seikyou.ne.jp (Keiji Nishihara)
11) Uncovered...
by Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
12) Just a few things...
by Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
13) CD Online
by Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
14) To Live Forever
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org>
15) A Rose By Any Other Name....
by Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:44:58 -0700
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: If Conception is the new Queensrÿche...
Message-ID: <199706031144.EAA11010@gms.gmsnet.com>
Conception didn't impress me that much
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% *$%&%#$* Global Micro Solutions #$#$#@@# *$*$*$*# Reality Enhancement Software - Engineering Reality *$&#*#@$ #$@#$#@# http://www.gmsnet.com/progmetal @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:02:00 -0500 From: strategy@45150.com (Jeff Keifling) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Oh but I am Message-ID: <v01530501afb9c5b526ab@[207.79.6.156]>
>>(who was presumably a European and unaware of the fact Canadians >>don't like to be lumped in with Americans), like about a dozen other >>people did.
In fact I am American --or USian : ). Although I didn't know that about Canadians. See... Learn something new every day.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:59:41 -0500 From: wjwomack@tddeng00.fnts.com (Wade J. Womack) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Magellan/Test Of Wills? Message-ID: <199706031159.GAA22142@tddpd22.tddeng00.fnts.com>
Hi Jammers
Now, having had time to absorb the latest from Magellan, I have come to believe that there was a miscommunication between the record company and the graphics designer(s). I believe that the title of this CD was intended to be "Testicles", because it is their balls-iest effort to date :) - not exactly "balls and chunck", but pretty agressive with the guitar mixed way up front. I think that Magellans' participation in the Magna Carta, Jethro Tull tribute album had a definate influence on TOW. I can easily imagine Ian Anderson singing many of the lyrics, and the breathy flute playing really screams "Tull". But, this is not to say that this is a CD for Tull fans, only. I can hear a variety of influences that are woven together, to create a sound that is distinctly Magellan. The addition of a real drummer is very welcome. I encourage all prog fans to check it out!
Now for a question - maybe one of you SF Bay-area jammers can help me out? Does Magellan tour, or play live? Being a (basically) two member band, how do they pull this off? Ala' Genesis live (extra musicians), sequencers or back-up tapes? I would love to hear them in a live setting.
Thanks
Wade
P.S. In regards to the "my country is better than your country" thread, give a listen to "Territories" by RUSH, from the Power Windows album. The song sums it up quite nicely.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:31:33 -0400 From: Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com> To: "'(ytsejam)'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Mindfeed (ex-Threshold) Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=bostech%l=CARRIER-970603133133Z-26244@carrier.btrd.bostontechnology.com>
Has anyone heard of this (or know how to get a copy of the CD) ?? E-mail me publically because discovering new music is one of the great attributes of the jam, especially in the "slower" band periods.
Note that every time I listen to Threshold, I like them all the more.
>WOW! Just got "Perfect Life?" from Mindfeed. It is SOO good. The singer >on the second Threshold (Glynn Morgan) album sings on this and is also the >guitarist. He also wrote all of the music. I just got it 3 days ago and I >already like it more than the Threshold album that he sings on. > >THIS ALBUM HAS NO KEYBOARDS! It is also quite a bit heavier than any >Threshold album. If you thought this guy had no balls, wait until you hear >him sing on this album. He really pushes his voice. There were one or two >moments on Psychedelicatessen that his voice got a cool, rougher edge to it >and I thought it sounded very cool and wished he had done it more. Well >now he has. > >The guitar work is also surprisingly good. This guy is talented. I can >see why he left Threshold. He has alot to say and it seems Karl Groom >rules Threshold with an iron hand. Threshold was too mellow for Glynn >Morgan. > >I can't really think of anything to compare this to off the top of my head. > The closest I could come (for the music, not the voice) is maybe Flotsam >and Jetsam or Vicious Rumors. That isn't really a very good comparison. >Mindfeed is a little more raw and more progressive than these two bands.
Later, Mark Metzger mmetzger@bostech.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:45:41 -0400 From: Todd Turbedsky <Tturbedsky@Telespecnt1.Telespec.com> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: DT Tour Dates Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Telespectrum%l=TELESPECNT6-970603134541Z-1321@telespecnt1.telespec.com>
Does anyone have any idea of DT tour dates coming down the pipeline? I'm in the Baltimore area and am anxiously awaiting to see DT! I'm originally from the Philly area, so if DT happens to stop there, traveling wouldn't be an issue. I just joined the ytsejam list, so please excuse me if perhaps you have conversed on this subject during past posts. I would appreciate any information that is sent my way.
Todd "the doctor"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:13:24 -0300 From: Marcelo Vanzin <vanzin@geocities.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Silent Man and Lie SIngles Message-ID: <33618EF4.177F@geocities.com>
This one is for the brazilians who were looking for the singles.
The Silent Man single I onve saw at Planet Music here in São Paulo. But, as everything in that store, was VERY expensive. But I guess that (if you live in São Paulo, of course) you won't have problems to find it in the "Galeria". The Lie one... that's a little more difficult. If you don't find it in the "Galeria", maybe you should check http://www.musicexpress.com (German Music Express). They have lots of hard-to-find CD's. I found Superior's Behind there, which I hadn't found anywhere else, and payed $17 for Vinnie Moore's Mind's Eye, which was $34 at CD Conncection. And, better than everything, got two CD's for the price of one. :) (I have a spare of Mind's Eye without the case, if someone is interested). Those are my $.02.
[]'s Marcelo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:57:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com> To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: PT DTOW Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970603095524.3496B-100000@bdmserver>
Kevin Madden wrote: >Al Balkiewicz is holding Mike Bahr (and his valuable cache of >"questionable material") hostage in his NJ Garbage >Dump hide-a-way (Al's - not Mike's) so as to purposefully >delay and obstruct the shipment of Pat Daugherty's cd. Al *is* >a devious fellow, you know.
Come on. Lets not lump Al B and Mike Bahr in the same sentence. They are 2 different classes of people. One is honest and trustworthy (Mike Bahr) and the other is well... nevermind.
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com | |=======================================================================| | "Every breath leaves me one less to my last" --Dream Theater | | "That is not an option, Mr. Mulder" --X-Files | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Cascade of Posts Signifying Nothing Message-ID: <199706031517.LAA12276@njmsa.UMDNJ.EDU>
> > Al Balkiewicz is holding Mike Bahr (and his valuable cache of > "questionable material") hostage in his NJ Garbage > Dump hide-a-way (Al's - not Mike's) so as to purposefully > delay and obstruct the shipment of Pat Daugherty's cd. Al *is* > a devious fellow, you know. >
You forgot to mention that my garbage dump hideaway is strategically located in a maze of jughandles to ensure that non-Jerseyans have NO WAY of ever finding me.... MUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Gotta go......need to file down the horns on my head.....
> > GO WINGS!
I'm for the Wings now too, but I'm tempted to wish their demise at the hands of Lindros (who is a very handsome fellow, BTW).........
-Al
-- ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
I inhale the sun...........I exhale the absence of light I am the number One..........burning.
^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^ email: balkiewi@njmsa.umdnj.edu the_prof@bigfoot.com HOMEPAGE:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/9280/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:33:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Helmet Message-ID: <199706031533.LAA20467@njmsa.UMDNJ.EDU>
> oh and.. i just found a tape i bought back in 92' ..the band was called > helmet.. its pretty cool acutally but..can anyone help me label these > guys out? > i mean.. like metal ..punk? i dont know
Helmet is definitely not punk.....but I wouldn't classigfy them as strictly metal either.....now that I think about it, I don't know how the hell to classify them...I mean, would you classify someone like Tool (from the self-titled album) as metal?
Helmet reminds me of Tool a bit, maybe like a more controlled Pro-Pain (anyone know these guys?).......Two of their albums are Betty and Meantime....their most popular songs are Milktoast (?) and Unsung.......they're also on the X-games 2 soundtrack, which is not as good as the first, but decent....
-Al
-- ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
I inhale the sun...........I exhale the absence of light I am the number One..........burning.
^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^ email: balkiewi@njmsa.umdnj.edu the_prof@bigfoot.com HOMEPAGE:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/9280/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:36:52 +0900 From: Keiji.Nishihara@ma1.seikyou.ne.jp (Keiji Nishihara) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Mindfeed (ex-Threshold) Message-ID: <199706031536.AAA11933@ma1.seikyou.or.jp>
Alright! I can tell about this.
the band: MINDFEED the title: PERFECT LIFE? rec. co.: Fandango/Tokuma Japan Communications released date: 21st May '97 (OUT NOW) complete track list: 1. Unreal World 2. Perfect Life? 3. Fear 4. Mother 5. Change 6. Always Never 7. My Hearts Bleeds 8. Live Forever 9. If Like Me 10. The Beckoning 11. Open Your Eyes
So if you want to get this opus,get in touch with Japanese Jammers!
Later.
At 6:36 1997.6.3 -0700, Mark Metzger wrote: >Has anyone heard of this (or know how to get a copy of the CD) ?? >E-mail me publically because discovering new music is one of the great >attributes of the jam, especially in the "slower" band periods. > >Note that every time I listen to Threshold, I like them all the more. > >>WOW! Just got "Perfect Life?" from Mindfeed. It is SOO good. The singer >>on the second Threshold (Glynn Morgan) album sings on this and is also the >>guitarist. He also wrote all of the music. I just got it 3 days ago and I >>already like it more than the Threshold album that he sings on. >> >>THIS ALBUM HAS NO KEYBOARDS! It is also quite a bit heavier than any >>Threshold album. If you thought this guy had no balls, wait until you hear >>him sing on this album. He really pushes his voice. There were one or two >>moments on Psychedelicatessen that his voice got a cool, rougher edge to it >>and I thought it sounded very cool and wished he had done it more. Well >>now he has. >> >>The guitar work is also surprisingly good. This guy is talented. I can >>see why he left Threshold. He has alot to say and it seems Karl Groom >>rules Threshold with an iron hand. Threshold was too mellow for Glynn >>Morgan. >> >>I can't really think of anything to compare this to off the top of my head. >> The closest I could come (for the music, not the voice) is maybe Flotsam >>and Jetsam or Vicious Rumors. That isn't really a very good comparison. >>Mindfeed is a little more raw and more progressive than these two bands. > >Later, >Mark Metzger >mmetzger@bostech.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- -Keiji Nishihara $B!!(BDoshisha Uni. Electric/Electronic Material Lab. Semiconductor ARRAY KYOTO JAPAN
Keiji.Nishihara@ma1.seikyou.ne.jp tq0139@mail4.doshisha.ac.jp
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 11:56:13 -0400 From: Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Uncovered... Message-ID: <199706031555.AA20044@gateway2.prudential.com>
Hello, So I just a got a tape of the whole Uncovered gig (Thanks again, Rog!), and I am so happy I did. The sound is okay, though definitely an analog source. You can hear the hiss throughout. But the live stuff for me wasn't even the highlight. The Collins demos are awesome! The guy's not the greatest singer, but the songs are cool. I had never heard Don't Look Past Me, but I love it. And the Carry That Weight cover is awesome! And yet another reason to love this "alternative recording": To Live Forever acousitic! Now I'm going to have to go buy the Lie single; the only recording I have of TLF is on the Live in Tokyo vid. I know, I know... I'm not a real fan...:) Question for Jammers: I looked on the bootleg page and couldn't find an answer to this. Is there a version of Don't Look Past Me with KJLB on vocals? I see that almost every other auditioned singer has done it, but didn't see James in there. If it's been done live or in the studio, I'd like to know. I see the track listed on Mr. Bahr's boots, is that James? Also I have to thank Rogerio for introducing me to a new band, Viper. They're similar in my mind to Rage-era Queensryche. I have definitely grown to like key-incorporating metal more than just key-less bands. Also got to hear a new Metallica song, The Prince (new to me at least). God, I love this tape trading thing. Now if my KTS disc would only come in so I can get some more trades going. Oh, and I've been warned three times in the last week for my violations of the company's electronic mail policies. You'd think they'd notice I don't care. -- _____________________________________________________________ Andrew Forcier a.k.a. Buck Stodgers --List Manager-- The Peppermint Tribe, the Saigon Kick Mailing List For info, check out: http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~rfm5570/ for e-mail inquiries, mailto:andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com *************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 13:25:43 -0400 From: Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Just a few things... Message-ID: <199706031725.AA26571@gateway2.prudential.com>
Hello, I remember a while back someone asked if that was really KJLB singing on SDV. This Jammer though it might be KevMo. Someone laughed and said if you had ever heard the demo with Kevin singing, you would certainly know the difference. Now I've finally heard the demo, and I agree. Kevin's voice sounds like Ozzy on the first Sabbath album. Does he do vocals on the Chromakey stuff?
>G3 world tour
Do not miss this show! I'm going again this summer (in whatever seats I can get), but the one last fall with Eric J. was the best concert I have EVER seen.
>(who was presumably a European and unaware of the fact Canadians >don't like to be lumped in with Americans)
Actually my Dad's a Canadian, a Quebecer at that, and he prefers to be called Tom. ;)
>But the actual number one reason your cd hasn't arrived is...
Heheh... Someone's gonna get mad at this one, and I don't think it's Al... On Nuno: >I met him after a show Extreme did here and the guy was a total jerk.
I've heard people say this, but when I met him about seven years ago at a music store, he was cool as hell. Guess it depends on the day.
>some people seem to think I'm good.
Well, don't break your arm patting your own back...:)
>I've hated him ever since and never *really* liked Extreme in the first >place.
Hatred is one thing, but respect is another. I hate the Cowboys, but man can they put together a football team.
>I can name one guy who kicks his ass... John Petrucci.
And I could name a few more, and a few who could kick Petrucci's. But then we could talk about comparing apples to oranges.
>Thanx for comin' out.
No problem, I try my best. :)
>In 2112 overture.. theres this riff
It's at the end of Closer to the Heart (Fates Warning) on the tribute. Still think that's the best song on there, though that riff sounds wierd at the end. On Helmet: >can anyone help me label these guys out?
Record companies are the ones who make money off this, not me.
>just wondering. does anybody know how many people are on this list?
Just two. Yourself and Chris Ptacek, who unsubscribed then subscribed under hundreds of different alias addresses so he could cover his tracks. :) Where, oh where has he gone...
>Until then, I'm removing Ytsejam subscription instructions from my >web site.
Just make sure you leave the UNSUBSCRIBE instructions there. :)
>remember when people used to write about DT in here??
Remember when people used to unsubscribe gracefully? -- _____________________________________________________________ Andrew Forcier a.k.a. Buck Stodgers --List Manager-- The Peppermint Tribe, the Saigon Kick Mailing List For info, check out: http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~rfm5570/ for e-mail inquiries, mailto:andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com *************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 13:45:03 -0400 From: Buck Stodgers <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: CD Online Message-ID: <199706031744.AA27854@gateway2.prudential.com>
Hello, Sorry if this is a waste of bandwidth, but has anyone heard of, or done business with a CD online place called That CD Place. They're located in Binghamton, NY. Any SUNY students know the place? They have some DT stuff that interests me, and maybe others. -- _____________________________________________________________ Andrew Forcier a.k.a. Buck Stodgers --List Manager-- The Peppermint Tribe, the Saigon Kick Mailing List For info, check out: http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~rfm5570/ for e-mail inquiries, mailto:andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com *************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:34:21 -0400 (EDT) From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org> To: A Pleasant Shade of Ytse <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: To Live Forever Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970603142946.993B-100000@digital.dreamt.org>
On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Buck Stodgers wrote:
> And yet another reason to love this "alternative recording": To Live > Forever acousitic! Now I'm going to have to go buy the Lie single; the > only recording I have of TLF is on the Live in Tokyo vid. I know, I > know... I'm not a real fan...:)
This message is for anybody that has heard TLF and liked it: get the Lie single. It has a studio version of the song that will just melt you. The first time I heard it, I was astounded at how *good* it was. (Then again, I was used to LitS and Subcon quality.) I'd always liked the song, but after getting the single, it's one of my two or three favorite DT tracks. (Oh, and boys, if you're reading this, consider playing this one on the next tour. :)
-d
P.S. Welcome back Rich!
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:52:28 -0700 From: Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: A Rose By Any Other Name.... Message-ID: <199706031852.LAA07174@main.cfmc.com>
>From: WhiteWolf <prelude@autobahn.mb.ca> > > Ok...she had a melody and Ballard shaped it for her. You call those >lyrics? I remember when the shit hit the fan over the word fu*k in the >original version of ACOS here.
Yeah, they're lyrics. I think we've gone through this before. Lyric content can be tough to hang meaningful descriptors on. There aren't any "I eat at Chez Nous" kinds of lines on the album, at least. It isn't fanciful content, it's frank. But more confessional, so it isn't a Peart-ish lyrical style, either. Aside from the leering tack that some of her male fan base tends to take because of the sexual content of her lyrics (see Tori Amos and Liz Phair), for the most part, I think you're dealing with a set of lyrics that CAN, in fact, be intelligently processed.
> Otay...now my point...she needed help to write it. She had released 2 or >3 albums previous to this one , which were nowhere. Suddenly, she hooks up with >Glen Ballard, and she's got a #1 album. Coincidence?
Ballard's a talent, that's for sure. How much contribution he made in reshaping her career is certainly subject to debate, but it ain't 100%, that's for sure. For one thing, a great deal of her ascendance to commercial success has been fueled by MTV, which is a major MARKETING channel. I think the label probably decided to give it all a big push. But I'll tell you something: what really got me excited about the album was the "You Oughta Know" single, which appealed to me because it meshed a really interesting, powerful vocal performance with Flea. Flea! So, in my eyes, he and Dave Navarro made a significant contribution to the record by dint of having played on the one tune. Let's share the wealth a little.
> Why? Well, how many people knew who Paula Abdul was before she became >famous? Not too many. Now, who wrote her music? Ballard did. Point being: she >needed the help of a more experienced songwriter to make this album...in both >cases. I'm not taking anything away from Ballard, mind you. He seems to be >a multi-talented guy. But who gets the glory in the end? The artist perfoming >those songs.
Yeah, that's certainly the case, but it's a question of appeal and greatness. Debbie Gibson wrote all her own songs...you might even say that she was something of a prodigy when she appeared on the scene. And then set beside her a classical performer like Yo Yo Ma, who writes next to nothing. Who's a more impressive musician? My money's on Mr. Ma, but if you think of composition as the be all and end all of musical contribution, he obviously lags behind a little bit.
> And what's a Ytsejammer doing listening to Alanis anyway?? She can't >sing, has no stage presence & no real talent. For me, death is preferable to >her music.
You should know better than this. I'm sure there's some amount of irony here, but I'm not really seeing it. And, incidentally, I've seen and read a number of interviews with her. And, despite her age, she comes across as unusually intelligent, perhaps even exceptionally so. In a monosyllabic world, Alanis Morrisette seems a "savant" without the "idiot."
Five Gratuitous CD's: ===================== 1. Pink Floyd: The Division Bell 2. Altura: Mercy 3. Jamiroquai: Traveling Without Moving 4. Tori Amos: Little Earthquakes 5. Black Sabbath: Vol. 4
Adam D. Barnhart adamb@cfmc.com ydnt85a@prodigy.com http://www.cfmc.com/adamb
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2606 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 17:59:28 EST