YTSEJAM Digest 3290
Today's Topics:
1) Re: "The Song"
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3288
by Loren Caler <lcaler@flash.net>
3) Gossebumps
by Loren Caler <lcaler@flash.net>
4) Re: Shred-Fast-Guitar * (Muahahaha)
by "James Thorpe" <thirdhvn@community.net>
5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3288
by Matthew Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
6) Info about Triumph
by "Juan Fco. Quintero" <jfquintero@sysop.com.mx>
7) OFB v Metalica...
by "David Ware"<djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com>
8) Stuff
by Neal Brown <nealus@geocities.com>
9) danger, danger -- absolutely NDTC!!!
by "Tanya Sorsa" <tenze@hotmail.com>
10) Re: Drummers that rule
by David_Cuthbert@Interflora.CCMAIL.compuserve.com
11) Hopping on the goosebump bandwagon / speed-playing
by Nicholas Giannotti <nickg@gis.net>
12) HotMail/Juno/etc
by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
13) Re: Gossebumps
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
14) Re: OFB v Metalica...
by Krysten DeBroka <kryt@indy.net>
15) ballroom show
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
16) Re: More of my thoughts *
by CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:06:58 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: "The Song"
Message-ID: <19971124192028.AAA14702@sni.pananet.com>
> My point here is that calling a part "overplayed" is just a way of saying
"I
> think he should have played this part slower." It's a subjective opinion
> about someone else's music, just like saying "I think he should have used
a
> 12-string guitar tuned in open tuning and strummed one chord over and
over
> instead of playing the Metropolis middle section." It's a valid opinion,
but
> it's just another example of a subjective interpretation of someone
else's
> work. There's no "objective" way to say anything is "overplayed" (right,
Yeah exactly, so whats your point to begin with? :)
When somebody said something is 'overplayed' its their opinion. We are
accustomed to DT's playing (and prog in general), and we like it..so we
dont consider it as overplaying...especially FII. But as you can see, many
ppl who are not into that music find it to be overplaying. It's their
nipple, its a different one, you'll have to live with that.... Now, yes,
speed can be distracting from the main voice. Think about it, you have one
line made up of whole notes, another one made up of 16th notes. Which one
is going to take the least amount of concentration to follow? The slower
one obviously.
Or lets make a visual analogy. In a painting, lets say the main point of
focus is a man. Now if the guy is surrounded by millions of other ppl
running around (ala Where's Waldo) its gonna be pretty hard to find him.
But if you only have a couple of other people, that are further in the
background, he's a lot clearer to see.
Of course maybe the point of the former painting was to make the viewer
feel confused trying to find something to see, but that's already going in
another tangent.
Naturally, in the end it's all relative...it's all just nipples.
BTW, yes some people do play fast to show off. Its called the 'male jock
phenomenon' :) When you get a certain amount of chops, its only part of
human nature to want to show it off to the rest of the world. I'm guilty
of it, and I'm sure most musicians on this list are too (especially when a
girl you really like happens to be in the room:)
Of course, Mike Varney doesn't exactly inhibit people from showing off.
Ernesto
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:50:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Loren Caler <lcaler@flash.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3288
Message-ID: <199711250550.XAA14476@endeavor.flash.net>
>I have a few old LP's that I would like to "unload". I wanted to hold onto
>them for quite a while longer so they would be worth more, but I'm in tough
>shape in the financial department with x-mas coming and all...
>Rush: Permanant Waves, in good shape with only a couple of dings on the
>outside of the jacket. Excellent condition for it's age. Only downpoint,
>The original owner (my old next door neighbor) wrote his last name in small
>letters in the upper left hand corner.
> Asking price $18
>Rush: Exit...Stage Left: This album is in fantastic shape for it's age.
>It's a double LP set. No scratches at all.
>Rush: Moving Pictures: This album seems to be in decent condition. Plays
>well, cover is worn.
> Asking Price $17
>Rush: A farewell to kings: This album is in fantastic shape, no
>scratches. Cover in perfect shape (for it's age)
>This is the album I want to part with least :(
> Asking price $20
What? How on earth can you ask so much for USED CD's? I can get the
re-mastered versions of ALL the Rush CD's at Circuit City for $9.99! I know
you may have payed a lot for them back then, but I think you better re-price
those my friend.
-Loren
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:03:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Loren Caler <lcaler@flash.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Gossebumps
Message-ID: <199711250603.AAA17342@endeavor.flash.net>
Hmmm this is hard but here are some of MY faves:
The killing hand (All of it)
The fill by MP in PMU. Too cool (Its the 32'nd notes one in the middle)
The crazy time sig part in Met. And the build at the end of it.
The whoooa whoooa whoooa part in LtL
The build in Voices "withdrawn and introverted, infectiously perverted" My
FAV part of ALL DT.
LSOAD - The part where I think the key changes..."He carries them away..and
the wind's die slowly"
Middle part where MP comes in on SDV
ACOS- My second all time FAV DT part....."Oh come, let us adore him....abuse
and then ignore him"
The ending of ACOS. Cream city!
The power chords in the beginning of the crunchy part of PS
The double-bass part of the chourus of PS. "Under Peruvian Skies!"
dg-dg-dg-dg- :)
The chourus in HY. Awesome.
The triplet build in the last minute of HK!!! Quickly becoming another all
time fav. Incredible on a good sound system.
ToT- The chorus. "It's raining" and of course the little roll-build into
"Still awake....bringing change"
So basically if I listened to DT all day, I'd be one big goosebump!
-Loren
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:12:37 -0800
From: "James Thorpe" <thirdhvn@community.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Shred-Fast-Guitar * (Muahahaha)
Message-ID: <01bcf969$20e6a500$efb15ecc@mpeywdzn>
> Hey, if I didn't believe in the virtue of shred, I wouldn't have
>bought all those Shrapnel discs in the first place, and I wouldn't
>practice at high speeds. Speed is best used, IMO, to add drama to
>phrases... if it's overused, or used wrong, it can have the opposite
>effect.
Yup, fast playing is such a turn off when it isn't played cleanly or
precise. Note choice is another big thing.
>George Bellas plays constant 16th and 32nd notes on his new
>Shrapnel album... it's a lot of fun to hear if you want to scare
>yourself, but as far as musical value? Hmmm.... I dunno.
George is a sick player. His next CD will at least be better sounding
because he used better equipment.
> As my friend was recounting from his Berklee days, when he and a
>classmate were sitting in a dorm room, watching a Racer X video...
>his classmate stopped the video and said "I feel sorry for all the
>people in the crowd... they have to sit there and watch someone play
>scales all night."
I'll take the video if he doesn't want it. :)
> "Nobody who CAN play fast ever said 'DUDE! SPEED SUCKS!'"
> - MICHAEL.ANGELO.
and nobody CAN write better songs than Michael. ;)
>Joe Stump was quoted by a friend as
>saying "My new album will make Cacophony look like Kindergarten."
ROFL!!!!!!! You mind if I use this quote, this is hilarious!!!
peace,
--james--
third heaven studio
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:36:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3288
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971124223605.14804A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Loren Caler wrote:
>What? How on earth can you ask so much for USED CD's? I can get the
>re-mastered versions of ALL the Rush CD's at Circuit City for $9.99! I know
>you may have payed a lot for them back then, but I think you better re-price
>those my friend.
Actually, he's selling used vinyl -- you know, those big vlack things that
look like plastic laserdiscs. Your parents or older sibling prolly had
'em.
>
>-Loren
>
>
--Matt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:12:11 -0600
From: "Juan Fco. Quintero" <jfquintero@sysop.com.mx>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Info about Triumph
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971125011211.0069f910@sysop.com.mx>
Could someone give me some opinions about the band called "Triumph"? Is
their music progressive?; what kind of music do they play?
Thank you very much!!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 08:29:20 -0800
From: "David Ware"<djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: OFB v Metalica...
Message-ID: <9711258804.AA880446781@smtpgate.walker.com>
Hi,
Well yes - I know we aren't supposed to discuss it but I think that
the new Metalica release is fair game on this list - and I'd like to
make some reference to DT, OFB.
I listened to RELOAD yesterday and I like most of it (as I do Load)
but you can tell that most of it was written at the same time
(actually - looking at the booklet a great deal of it was recorded at
the same time). So it feels as though they haven't progressed in
anyway - nothing new. Also - if you had enough material to do a
double CD (what's that - 140 mins?) and your boss said - "not
commercially viable, just do 1 CD", it is natural that you would pick
the best ones to go - leaving Re-Load as the poorer cousin.
And why did they allow Marian Faithfull to destroy "The Memory
Remains"?
Still - not bad...
Now to compare with DT - a great deal of FII was written a while back
and they too had too much material and (unfortunately) had to cut a
number of songs (all of which - incidentally would blow most Metalica
tracks out of the water). But OFB have evolved the songs (through
gigging and re-arangement) and have produced an inovative CD that has
progressed the band (perhaps not in the direction that everyone wants
- but hey, its their choice...and I'm happy). Oh, and I listened to my
Fix tape for the first time since getting FII - and I think the studio
versions have done the originals a great justice - you can feel the
grooves throughout the live stuff and it has translated well into the
studio...
Dave (a UK Jammer - the only one who likes FII's drum sound?).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:46:13 -0600
From: Neal Brown <nealus@geocities.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Stuff
Message-ID: <347A9055.341@geocities.com>
Okay...howdee...I've been preoccupied the last week and a half or so,
and I've literally got at least 50 Jams just sitting around that I
haven't read yet. *lol* Hotmail's getting pissy with me. That said, some
of this stuff is probably pretty dated, but the first few posts I saw
didn't respond to these things the way I'm going to.
Re Metallica: I haven't heard much about the quality of Reload but it
had better be high caliber before I buy it.
Re Yes: my favorite of theirs is Relayer, because it's the ballsiest.
Their most experimental and freaked-out work. Most accessible is the Yes
Album and/or Fragile. Close To The Edge is like Relayer but less
dissonant and psychotic. Tales From Topographic Oceans is real long and
slow and peaceful, for the most part. Not bad but ery inaccessible, very
hippy-dippy type stuff. Going For The One is pretty cool, thicker
textures than Close To The Edge.
Re Voivod: Angel Rat bored me to death. So did Negatron. The Outer
Limits rocked my world. I don't get it. AR is just boring. They don't
take any chances. TOL is downright bizarre, with a 17-minute track.
Great stuff. Negatron is like bad death metal.
Re Metropolis II: Personally, if they put a live version of Metropolis I
with some sort of extended instrumental noodling in the middle, I'd
drive that much faster to the record store to get it ;). Anything else,
and I'd rather just hear the stuff cut from FII.
Other stuff....I got Savatage's "Dead Winter Dead" and I can't decide
whether Genesis' Calling All Stations was worse or not. Honestly, I'm
just going to sell it off. Great story, decent lyrics, hideous music.
Queensryche made the definitive statement with this type of concept
album already, they're just rehashing very, very old ground musically
IMHO. Quoting Ode To Joy doesn't make it musically interesting. Is this
as good as Savatage gets?
Those of you who want to hear stuff with a Chapman Stick on it: try
anything by King Crimson in the 80s and 90s (Tony Levin is *the*
Stickist. He singlehandedly made it fashionable), the new Bozzio Levin
Stevens album (TLev uses all sorts of weird stuff on that), Philharmonie
(an obscure French band that sounds much like 80s Crimson except they
skip the vocals and the annoying poppiness)....there's another band
named Code Magenta that's just a stick player, a singer, and the sax
player from Dave Matthews (haven't heard em yet--probably really really
jazzy).
Sorry if any of this is ridiculously behind!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:13:01 PST
From: "Tanya Sorsa" <tenze@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: danger, danger -- absolutely NDTC!!!
Message-ID: <19971125091302.19412.qmail@hotmail.com>
My apologies, for this message contains nothing progressive :)
I have a problem. Does anyone know if the hard rock (?) band Danger
Danger still exists?
The legendary UFO is playing in Helsinki soon and they have this band
"Danger, Danger" supporting them. Now, I thought my teenage idol band
already split up. But who would use the same not-so-bright name again?
If this really is the same "naughty naughty bang bang" band I would love
to see them live. So if anyone knows about this, please let me know
(private email)! Ta!
Tanya / Tenze
in my walkman today: "Abbey Road" - The Beatles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://pc245.aanet.aanekoski.fi/tljl96/tasorsa/
http://members.tripod.com/~Tenze/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:56:06 -0500
From: David_Cuthbert@Interflora.CCMAIL.compuserve.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Drummers that rule
Message-ID: <199711250558_MC2-298E-CB0E@compuserve.com>
>For jazz drummers, let me add one more....Roy Haynes. He is a tiny
>drummer
>who plays with Chick Corea band.
>
>AE
>
When did Roy Haynes play with Chick Corea, I know Gary Novak took over
from Dave Weckl, but I've not heard of this other guy.
David C.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:20:43 -0500
From: Nicholas Giannotti <nickg@gis.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Hopping on the goosebump bandwagon / speed-playing
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.19971125092043.25b73486@pop.gis.net>
Ok, since everyone else is doing it, why can't I?
DT Goosebump Moments:
-intro to 'Ytsejam'
-outro solo of 'Lie'
-bass fill in 'Metropolis, part I'
-the part in TTT when James sings, "Unbroken spirits..." up to the next
chorus (shivers!)
-on "Wake Up!", JP's outro solo in TTT
-the mad instrumental bit in PMU
-the part when they all come together in HK
-Derek's solo in ToT (dear GOD...)
-the mad instrumental bit in JLMB
NTDGM:
-Stevie Ray Vaughn's third-bar solo in "Empty Arms"
-Roger Taylor's beating the snare in "The Reflex" (I just *KNOW* I'm gonna
take shit for that one!)
-the entirity of Midge Ure's "Dear God" (NOT the XTC song of the same name!)
-the entirity of Stevie Ray Vaughn's "Life By the Drop"
-the end harmony of Harry Connick Jr's "Man in the Moon"
There are more, but I've taken up enough bandwidth with that...
In regards to over/underplaying: if you think it sounds good, whether it be
fast or slow, then what do you care as to whether or not people say it's
too fast or slow? Should their opinions on whether too fast even MATTER to
your enjoyment of the music? I certainly don't let it bother me...
-Nicholas
"Everyone who believes in psychokinesis please raise my right hand."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:41:59 -0500
From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: HotMail/Juno/etc
Message-ID: <199711251441.JAA11627@wicked.stigmata.org>
Hi All ...
Thanks to some work from the guys over at AX.COM, mail from
places like hotmail, juno, etc will NOT be blocked to the ytsejam
anymore. Just wanted to let everyone know. I apologize for the
incovience, but I didn't know about the change until a couple of
people told me.
Skadz
--- Ryan Skadberg | "feed my head, with some real thoughts, Ytsejam Moderator | and let me think instead of being taught, skadz@dreamt.org | i'll say things you won't believe, http://www.dreamt.org/ | just stand back, just let me breathe......" | "Just Let Me Breathe" -Dream Theater------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:44:54 -0200 (EDT) From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Gossebumps Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971125124408.3793A-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Loren Caler wrote:
> Hmmm this is hard but here are some of MY faves: > > The fill by MP in PMU. Too cool (Its the 32'nd notes one in the middle)
When exactly is this?? Could you please post the exact time?
Thank you very much, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:55:03 -0500 (EST) From: Krysten DeBroka <kryt@indy.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: OFB v Metalica... Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971125094925.7132A-100000@indy3>
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, David Ware wrote:
> I listened to RELOAD yesterday and I like most of it (as I do Load) > but you can tell that most of it was written at the same time > (actually - looking at the booklet a great deal of it was recorded at > the same time). So it feels as though they haven't progressed in > anyway - nothing new. Also - if you had enough material to do a > double CD (what's that - 140 mins?) and your boss said - "not > commercially viable, just do 1 CD", it is natural that you would pick > the best ones to go - leaving Re-Load as the poorer cousin.
I saw a show on MTV (yes, the _only_ good thing about MTV is "My So-Called Life") last week. It was an hour-long show about Metallica, with interviews. Anyway, they said that they wanted to do a double CD and were planning on doing one until the opportunity to headline Lollapalooza came up. So, they released Load before touring. They also said that ReLoad would be more complex and heavier because they recorded the easier songs first, therefore, those were on Load. So, ReLoad is not necessarily the poorer cousin, well, according to the band anyway. I still haven't given it enough listens to make a fair judgement on ReLoad, but my initial reaction was that it definitely isn't what I was hoping for...
---Krysten kryt@indy.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:31:41 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com> To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: ballroom show Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971125102733.1037C-100000@bdmserver>
d wrote: >So, as the lounge version of UaGM came on (man, that's cool as shit! Mike, I >want a copy! :) we milled around in front of the stage for as long as we >could, which you all know by now is standard Jammer operating >procedure. Not only did I not see Pat and Kevin again, nobody came up >to say hi. I saw Blevins' post, so I know you were there. Where were >ya? And where the fuck were the rest of you?? A DT show is not complete >to me until I meet a whole shitload of Jammers. Oh, well, the few >Jammers that were cool enough to say hi were still a pleasure to meet and >hang with.
Mainly we bolted so fast because we wanted to get out of DC as soon as possible. Plus the guy who drove and my tired wife wanted to leave. If DT plays at Jaxx in January (hopefully) I wont have any problem sticking around.
I am confused why syrinx drove from Philly to Williamsburg then up to DC... Seems like he took the long way...
|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com | |===================================================================| | Washington Redskins 6-5-1 | | Upon the murder scene of a NY Yankee fan at Camden Yards: | | "I didn't know that was illegal in Baltimore"-Munch on Homicide | |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: More of my thoughts * Message-ID: <01IQF8P2IVJM9AO43H@alma.edu>
> But what aspects are we talking about? The complexity of the music?
Yes.
>If you dislike Nirvana because it's too simple, then to you, they are >"UNDERplaying"
No, no, no. Yes, I dislike Nirvana primarily because it's too simple, but that's not related to overplaying or (heh, heh,) "underplaying". A piece of musice could be extremely complex without having a single beat of "shredding", or playing fast, or whatever you want to call it, and no one, not even that dumbass reviewer, would say that the musicians were overplaying. I used to be into the shrapnel catalog as well, (some of it still sounds good to me), so I'm something of a shredhead myself, and yet my favorite DT song is LTL. Ok, granted, Nirvana still probably couldn't pull this song off, but compared to the rest of IaW, there is very little fast playing in this piece. Even someone who hated DT for their overplaying would be hard pressed to find where they overplayed in this one. Yet, from a compositional standpoint, it's possibly their most complex song (there's that terrible word again) ever. This isn't the best example, but my point is that the term "overplaying" as it was used by that reviewer, and as I assume we must therefore use it in this discussion, did not, IMO, have anything to do with the broad concept of musical complexity, he was referring more to specific parts, specific solos, etc, which he felt may have had a few too many notes. I don't think taking those notes out would make the song or the music itself any less "complex", and yet doing that might make the guy retract his comment. So it is perfectly valid for me to say that *I* personally dont' like Nirvana music because it's too simple, but not because they "underplay". Musical complexity and chops are theoretically unrelated, though in practice they seem to occur together quite a bit. In fact, I would go a step further with this argument and say that I don't like some of that shrapnel stuff for the same reason I don't like Nirvana; (get ready for this) I don't like some of the all-shred stuff because it's too simple. And yet, I will go back on my previous statement and say that at the same time, some of those guys *do* kind of overplay. I'm very hesitant to say that, though, and here's why. There is validity to what Chris said, that some guys do play fast just to show off. And perhaps this is the logical cutoff point at which we could say that they were overplaying. However, we can't know why a person wrote a particular part... I mean, to me, JP NEVER overplays... fast licks are just part of his style, I think it always fits what he's playing, and never sounds like showing off to me. But that's just how I hear it, so if another guy wants to play that way CONSTANTLY (like Michalangelo), then who am I to say that's not really what he wants to hear? He MAY be overplaying, but none of us can REALLY know. Yes! my longest paragraph ever. Unfortunately, I can't go back and put paragraph breaks in now, so if you're still with me, sorry about that. Oh, and here's my goosebump moment:
Just kidding. -Clark
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3290 **************************
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