YTSEJAM Digest 3272
Today's Topics:
1) BASS Player review of FII
by jOHN jENS <jjens@darkhorse.triad.net>
2) Re: Images And Words HARD BOX !!!
by jOHN jENS <jjens@darkhorse.triad.net>
3) Jadis
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
4) FIX vs. FII
by Eric John Marlett <gt7262a@prism.gatech.edu>
5) Fill me in?
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
6) boy, are people misguided these days
by "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
7) Re: Images And Words HARD BOX !!!
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
8) Lars, no thanks.
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
9) Progression
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
10) Chambers, no not Marylin!
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
11) ugh, Rockbitch...
by Seroussi <seroussi@algonet.se>
12) Dream Theater tabs
by Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
13) Re: Fill me in?
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
14) Re: DSM -III-R? Marrilion
by Anna & Heike Boedeker <boedeker@netcologne.de>
15) Keys
by Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu>
16) Re: Progression
by Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:24:42 -0600 (CST)
From: jOHN jENS <jjens@darkhorse.triad.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: BASS Player review of FII
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971121142158.25871A-100000@darkhorse.triad.net>
BASS Player January 1998 p.68
Dream Theater
Failing into Infinity [EastWest]
One thing's certain about Dream Theater's fourth CD: you won't feel
cheated if you buy it, even if you don't like what you hear. Boasting
over 78 minutes of huge orchestrations, ambitious instrumentals, and
wildly diverse styles that range from raging metal to gentle ballads, this
disc contains more music than just about any we've recently heard. If the
R&B lite of Top 40 or the faceless crunch du jour of alternative rock
leaves you snoring, try dialing up a little prog-rock,'90s-style.
Dream Theater's biggest weakness is that guitarist John Petrucci and
drummer Mike Portnoy still tend to overplay. Bassist John Myung, however
(who met Petrucci and Portnoy at Berklee College of Music), is solid and
foundational enough to keep the band's music from sounding like it's
flying apart. On the band's best cuts, everyone's in perfect
lockstep-such as on Infinity's opener, "New Millennium." The tune combines
all of the best elements of King Crimson, Rush, and Soundgarden, with a
dense arrangement built around Myung's insistent Yamaha 5-string ostinato.
Dynamics and changing rhythms make the hard metal of "Peruvian Skies"
several notches more intelligent than your average grungepop or grindcore.
Another of John's trademark angular, distorted eighthnote bass ostinatos
leads the way on "Burning My Soul." Even on many of DT's over-the-top
tunes, such as "Lines in the Sand" (with guest vocals by King's X bassist
Doug Pinnick), highly inventive arrangements and production techniques
turn what would otherwise be a shred-fest into a work of art. (Check out
Myung's amazing flurry of harmonics 9:47 into the track.) The ambitious
three-section closer, "Trial of Tears," is Pink Floyd-like in its
grandiosity. This time, Myung wields a Chapman Stick; the instrument
choice is pure genius, as the Stick's unique tone-ultra-deep, with a
super-detailed, almost acoustic- sounding top-fits the song brilliantly.
The album concludes with a tasteful Myung solo.
Falling into Infinity is an intense listen-at times fatiguing to the ear,
but still highly enjoyable. As Dream Theater continues to mature and
learns to further explore taste and space, it's destined only to improve.
-Karl Coryat
-- uh, doesnt JM use the Stick on NM? guess Mr. Coryat needs to RTFF! (go d-man!).john (.sigless cuz, well,`rm -rf *` happens)
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:34:19 -0600 (CST) From: jOHN jENS <jjens@darkhorse.triad.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Images And Words HARD BOX !!! Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971121143206.25871C-100000@darkhorse.triad.net>
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Arash Ashouriha wrote:
| Has enybody heard something about the "IMAGES AND WORDS hard box" ? | | I own 1 copy :-) | It's a beautyfull 31 x 15 cm hard box (ID: 92148-2 Atco).
i've got this. most Americans call them "long boxes." just another relic. prolly not worth much...other than 100DM that you paid for it. so i guess mine's worth 100DM too ;)
john (still .sigless)
NP: Lords of Acid "Our Little Secret"
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:54:34 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Jadis Message-ID: <85256556.0072BA33.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
>>Jadis: It is like Enchant but not so heavy, they are from England and currently they have 3 CD's and 2 short time CD's.<<
So what you are trying to say is............" it is as heavy as Hanson?" :o)
Charlie
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:01:54 -0500 (EST) From: Eric John Marlett <gt7262a@prism.gatech.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: FIX vs. FII Message-ID: <199711212101.QAA14973@acmex.gatech.edu>
> still excellent. Actually, I've just realised, I think it's the new > version of BMS, I think I preffered the fix version. Same with TAMP and > (to a lesser extent) LiTS.
I have to definitely echo that sentiment, well, sort of. And in case it matters, I wasn't able to go to a Fix show, and I didn't hear the Fix versions of these songs until after I had heard them on FII, so this isn't the whole "first thing I heard" bias. In any case, I think the Fix version of TAMP is a lot more emotional and just taps into my feelings more. As for LiTS, I liked the arrangement of the lyrics in the Fix version, because, I don't know, I think it just fit better with the mood of the song. As for BMS though, here I have to disagree. I actually think the FII version is a lot better. Maybe it's just because HK and BMS sound so different, especially in tone and mood, that when I heard them combined in one song, it just didn't sound right. (remember, I heard the Fix version last) Anyway, to me, it just seems like the punch of BMS is a lot more effective without the instrumental section that we now know as HK. Anyway, that's my take on the different versions.
Eric - wishing he was going home for Tahnksgiving so he could catch the Po-town show..... :(
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:04:48 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Fill me in? Message-ID: <85256556.0073ABE2.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
I am new to this board (but not DT). Please fill me in on Mike Bahr. I have seen this name thrown around like a football, and I was wondering who he REALLY is.
Thanks, Charlie
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:10:00 -0500 From: "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: boy, are people misguided these days Message-ID: <199711212105.QAA05299@bertelsmanncis.com>
Hey all:
between Kuba and Chris, >> This is wrong. If everything could be judged objectively, then >> someone could write a big book of "Right and Wrong" and there would >> never be a war or crime or inhuman treatment of monkey spooge or >> whatever.
>Yes! >As I wrote, it is POSSIBLE to estimate evetything objectively. >I know it's VERY difficult but possible.
OK, here's my futile attempt to avoid the pages and pages of redundancy that are about to ensue (or already ensuing), as everyone points out why Kuba is wrong. I mean, here is the crux of what he's saying, throwing out all of the insults and interesting grammar. Fact is, it is natural to feel that somethings cannot be estimated objectively. Take love. Write an objective story on the rights and wrongs of how to love and be loved, and leave out no inconsistencies, no gray areas. NObody can, so we feel like it's not possible. Kuba feels it is. However, until he can demonstrate some proof that everything can theoretically be estimated objectively, he's got no leg to stand on.
Here's the challenge to you, then, Kuba. You've made your assertion, now back it up with some proof, some substantiation, or shut the hell up.
]From YtseJim: >> Someone mentioned both Faith No More and Mr. Bungle >> as being progressive rock.............. to me, being >> a big fan of both bands, I'd have to say 'no'. >> Not exactly sure WHY,
>wow, thats a great reason...you sure know how to support >an arguement. Anyway, I would consider them progressive. >Not only does their style change from album to album, >but it usually changes from song to song
AAAARGH!!! How many damn people are going to use this false definition of prog? Geez, compare Suspicious Minds to Blue Suede Shoes--Elvis must have been the grandaddy of prog!!! Look, We Didn't Start the Fire is so way different than Movin' Out--Billy Joel!! The flag-bearer of prog in the 90s!!! Cherry Pie was sooo much differerent than Down Boys--let's all mourn the loss of Warrant, another great prog band down!!! Oh, jeez, speaking of losing great prog artists, 2 Legit to Quit and Pray were so much different than the stuff on Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em, and look at that he even changed his name, dropping the MC!!!! Hammer--prog legend!!! And hey, people were asking about prog chicks--what about Debbie Gibson (excuse me, noe Deborah Gibson--another daring prog name change!) abandoning her teen influences for a newer adult sound? Prog for sure!!!
Faith No More is an innovative band, as are Fishbone, Jane's Addiction, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Primus, and lots others--but they are not, I repeat, NOT, progressive.
The definition of prog is elusive, though it definitely is not just progressing from album to album or whatever, even song to song. It usually involves things such as time changes, tempo changes, instrumental innovation (not writing instrumental songs really, but more in the playing of specific instruments), taking thematic approaches to music, and probably a whole host of other things. But it is not simply changing, or having one or two of these characteristics. (Or see the list above, dammit.)
--MATt
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:17:21 -0500 From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Images And Words HARD BOX !!! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971121161721.00bebeb0@sol.eng.fore.com>
At 01:07 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote: > >On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Arash Ashouriha wrote: > >| Has enybody heard something about the "IMAGES AND WORDS hard box" ? >| >| I own 1 copy :-) >| It's a beautyfull 31 x 15 cm hard box (ID: 92148-2 Atco). > >i've got this. most Americans call them "long boxes." just another relic. >prolly not worth much...other than 100DM that you paid for it. so i guess >mine's worth 100DM too ;)
I'd open it too, because the music on the CD is worth much more than the packaging. At first, I thought this was some kind of novelty item, until it was cleared up that it's just a long box. I don't think there's anything in it except for the CD. No bother keeping it sealed.
KAI
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:38:40 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Lars, no thanks. Message-ID: <85256556.0076BD16.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
>>Lars found that extra bass drum he lost 2 years ago :)<<
Make that about 6 years ago :o)
Charlie
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:39:12 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Progression Message-ID: <85256556.00762D1F.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
>>PROGRESSIVE=CHANGE!<<
I can't agree with this. I know many of you will disagree with me, but I think that progression is a step forward, not laterally or backwards. Just being different is not enough. If Yes decided to start playing like Hanson, they would have changed, but they would not have become more progressive.
That is just some food for thought.
Charlie
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:43:28 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Chambers, no not Marylin! Message-ID: <85256556.00772791.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
>>Chambers is a monster, I can't believe he had only that few drums out there......the sounds that were emanating, the drop-dead shifts in rhythm.....move over Mark Zonder, I have a new Drum God......<<
Chambers is a drum god. No disrespect to Zonder or anyone else for that matter, but I have only seen a few drummers in this world who can even be considered in the same ballpark with this guy. Dave Weckl is one that comes to mind. Dennis is a bad ass, and that is the bottom line.
Charlie
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:16:34 +0100 From: Seroussi <seroussi@algonet.se> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: ugh, Rockbitch... Message-ID: <34760842.4A856EFE@algonet.se>
> From: "Kaplan Philip" <KaplanPhil@bah.com> > Subject: CHICK METAL BAND!!! > > I found one! Check it: > > http://www.rockbitch.com
ok, from how åsa swanö (related to dan swanö, thus she can't be wrong ;) reviewed this band, I understood that they are something like a metal spice girls group. Then she went on saying that she, in her naivity, always thought that the best band of girls she ever knew, Ice Age, never got a contract because of bad luck and now she knows it was all about the clothes they wore.
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:53:07 +0100 From: Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl> To: "'Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Dream Theater tabs Message-ID: <01BCF6D5.C54917E0@Chakotay.startrek.GlobalXS.nl>
Derfelt@aol.com wrote :
>> People could basically mail me a Spice Girls tab, say it's >> "Trial of Tears" and I'd add it without hesitation :-) > > Heh heh...as if the Spice Girls can play actual instruments...
One word : Skinflute _____
Ryan Good asked :
> Will someone please send me the URL's of the webpages with Dream > Theater guitar tab?
I think I have the most comprehensive list of Dream Theater tabs on "Under A Cyber Moon" at http://www.prognosis.com/dream/ :-)
> Yahoo fucking sucks, and there are a ton of pages down and out.
If you're looking for Dream Theater sites in general, you should give the Dream Theater webring a spin :-) Scroll down the main page when you're on "Under A Cyber Moon". It's pretty much self- explanitory when you see it.
Mark ____________________________________________________bredius@globalxs.nl__ I feel shipwrecked, _ _____ ___ _ _ _ _ I might as well be shipwrecked : |:__ __| __\: |_: |: \_ | I'm helpless and alone, drifting out to sea : | : |: (___: _ | :_ / (Genesis - Shipwrecked) :_| :_| :___/:_| :_| :__/ _________________________________________________________________________ Dream Theater online "Under A Cyber Moon" http://www.prognosis.com/dream/ Itchy's http://www.prognosis.com/itchy/ H Website http://www.a-vip.com/H
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:46:25 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Fill me in? Message-ID: <199711212246.RAA05485@al.cs.wm.edu>
> I am new to this board (but not DT). Please fill me in on Mike Bahr. I > have seen this name thrown around like a football, and I was wondering who > he REALLY is.
Funny you should use that analogy. Mike Bahr used to be the place kicker for the New England Patriots.
:)
Hey, Sav, thanks for the JM article. What's that author's e-mail addy? :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:45:26 +0100 From: Anna & Heike Boedeker <boedeker@netcologne.de> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: DSM -III-R? Marrilion Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971121234526.007976c0@mail.netcologne.de>
>> 'R' Us" >>self-help cassette tapes for people suffering from prog-phobia (DSM-III-R Z >>37659.76234)... :-) > >I'm curious as to why you didn't write "DSM -IV", I'm doing my undergrad >work in psych at the moment (what's with all these bass playing pysch >majors! It almost makes me believe in societal memory and predeidposition) >and a lot of my profs seem to be bashing the DSM IV as a diagnostic tool in >favor of the DSM _III-R. I was curios about your take on that, what with >having more exposure to both than I have had.
<sigh... and this when I'm tired & overworked anyway> To be true I was making a joke and I chose to write DSM-III-R simply for the reason it looks more impressive :-)
Otherwise I do basic research w/out having to bother about this stuff altogether, I'm one of those PITAs :-) that make their own frameworks instead of applying those made by others, and still worse even refusing to get enslaved by those I invented myself... suffice to say that consequently I'm quite critical... also of the ICD which over here many seem to give preference. Just in case you ever should write opinions do me the favor (no matter what your profs are saying) of not just using these shortcuts but include a few sentences to bring across what the actual experience of people ("cases") is like.
Yeah, but I've just noticed that many bass players have this fathoming quality, too... just that this only is an empirical, if not merely anecdotal, observation, and I can't think of how to explain it... <disclaimer>
>Hmmm, Would prog phobia be Axis I or Axis II as in anti-prog personality >disorder since most people who suffer from the condition never seek >treatment for a problem that they are unaware that they are suffering from?
<giggle> Oh sure they are... that's why I probably won't sell a single copy of my self-help program :-)
(and yes, I preferred the DSM b/c of the axes...)
>I'm curious as to why everyone calls Marrillion prog? Granted, I have >EXTREMELY limited experience with them is 6 of one, half dozen of the >other. I'm not impressed with it at all. It seems like fairly commericial >pop to me. Of course, this may be because it's a "greatest hits" album and >they simply put their most commercial tracks on, but the only song I can >dig is "Kaleigh" I thik I spelled that wrong, but I'm too lazy to look it >up now. "Incommunicado" and "The Assasin" just make my skin crawl away >from my ears, trying to rip out my tympanic membrane with it!
To be true for a pop song this "K..." (I can't remember its spelling either :-)) isn't even that bad... :-) <ducking myself, so don't shoot low...> Otherwise wasn't into Marillion too much, either... Two guys of my class saw them at some open air (I think somewhere up in Scotland -?) where they played together w/ Jethro Tull back in '82, long before their big get-off, and they were just *nuts* about them, but somehow... I just don't know why I didn't come to share their enthusiasm...
But then I don't know why I should love each and every band just b/c their music has been labeled "prog"... e.g. I also can't explain why I preferred listening to King Crimson, Yes and Rush in the 70s to listening to Genesis and Gentle Giant... maybe b/c I just loved Squire, Lee, Peart and Bruford???
>The singer just dresses like a girl. and he probably blames his mother for dressing him >that >way. Ya that is in an I Mother Earth song/
ICD F 64.something (if I remember right -?)... actually this isn't any such thing as funny... poor boy... or girl... :-( I mean I don't know hir (I don't even know this band zie's playing with)... Why do you think zie was blaming hir mother? In my experience few transpersons do that... especially not those in whom one might suspect their cross-gender behavior was expression of a specific defense strategy (I don't mean this derogatorily, it's just that I didn't invent this terminolgy)... I'm just writing a paper w/ the working title "Native vs. White Sex Cosmologies: Sex and Gender Variability vs. Variance in Inter- vs. Intracultural Perspective" (no kidding, this is my major area of research next to cognitive linguistics... nice combination, huh?), if you'd like to be provided a prefinal draft please lemme know... What a strange topic for Ytse :-) But music is life, so... :-)
Heike
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:54:43 -0800 From: Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Keys Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971121145433.006b90b0@cats.ucsc.edu>
Lars Sed:
>I think the keys were just as prominent on Awake. > (etc.) > >Also, by "weak", I don't think he meant "less prominent". > (more etc.)
Okay. I see your point and raise you a cordial disagreement. ;) I prefer Derek's style on FII to Kevin's on Awake, but prefer Kevin's work on I&W to both. (but only by a little, and because I'm a sucker for that old square wave lead) To be completely objective and factual, (sarcasm alert) Derek's playing has more "energy" and "excitement" than Kev's on Awake.
>in general, I think people who like heavier music will probably prepfer >Derek's style, whereas people who are more into more "proggy" and >classical type music will probably prefer Kevin's style. I think all the >arguing over who's better is pointlesss.
That's probably why I like kev's a bit better overall. I tend to openly like all prog more than I openly like all metal, tho I like the merging of the two best of all (like peanut butter & chocolate, y'know?)
And last, but not least, Hell's Kitchen is the most goose-bumpiest sond on FII for me. Especially the last minute or so. It ranks up there in my book along with the end of the old ACOS for GPI (Goosebumps Per Inch (of skin) )
__ /\ __ Chris Oates: aspect@cats.ucsc.edu __\/__\/__ +---- \_||_/ | "Still awake, I continue to move along, cultivating my | /__||__\ | own nonsense" -Dream Theater, "Trial of Tears" | // \ | \\ ----+ \| http://www2.ucsc.edu/people/aspect/
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:10:17 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Progression Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971121164831.3502A-100000@short-eared.owlnet.rice.edu>
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Charlie Korch wrote:
> >>PROGRESSIVE=CHANGE!<< > > I can't agree with this. I know many of you will disagree with me, but I > think that progression is a step forward, not laterally or backwards. Just > being different is not enough. If Yes decided to start playing like > Hanson, they would have changed, but they would not have become more > progressive.
There's something to what you say, but, you're right - I do disagree. :)
1) The entire idea of "progression" implies that there's an objective definition of a "forward" direction. If Yes did start playing like Hanson, I'm sure that Hanson fans would feel that this would represent a "progression" from what they play now.
2) As was pointed out at great length a couple of posts ago, "progressive" music does not at all imply change; rather it is a genre of music with a specific set of characteristics. Therefore, even if we could objectively define a "progression", the question of whether a given band is "progressive" would still be unanswered.
I do think you have a point, as each of us has his own subjective definition of what a "progression" represents and therefore prefers bands that evolve in a certain direction. This is much too subjective to hang a definition of "progressive" music on, however.
Mark McEuen mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3272 **************************
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