YTSEJAM Digest 3019
Today's Topics:
1) Clark Abel's rantings
by Glenn Waterfield <lwaterfi@eecs.uic.edu>
2) poking fun at the dead guys
by JB <beamup@vt.edu>
3) to the shirtlifter
by "L. Jason Hartman" <lhartm1@gl.umbc.edu>
4) The REAL story about clipping
by Joshua Malone <jmalone@mail.vt.edu>
5) Faling Back Into the Jam (pt1)
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
6) Falling Back Into the Jam (pt2)
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
7) Re: UAGM
by Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il>
8) RE: YTSEJAM digest 3018
by "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil>
9) Peruvian skiis [sic]
by Koby <disciple@asu.edu>
10) Quit your bitching
by "A. Williamson" <ajwilli@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
11) Semi-FIIR
by Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:55:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Glenn Waterfield <lwaterfi@eecs.uic.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Clark Abel's rantings
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970925133744.16894A-100000@bert.eecs.uic.edu>
Jammers:
I have to agree with almost everything Clark said (I won't quote it --
it's too damn long). It's OK to like I&W better than the last two. I
remember way back when Awake came out, the Jam experienced many of the
same comments about Awake as with FII. "What did you expect, I&W II?"
Well, yeah. I did. At least that's what I was hoping for. I found a
style that I really liked to listen to and wanted more of it.
I don't think FII will ever touch me like I&W did. I think FII makes
improvements over Awake (less guitar-driven, i.e. more keys!) but I also
think it digresses even farther from I&W.
And like Clark, I don't think I'm blind as to what progressive is. I
think I&W has the best musical theme developement of any contemporary
music I have ever heard (like what's done at Metropolis 6:20 for those of
you who demand examples). Now that's progressive.
Also, the nifty jazz influences that have crept into DT are progressive.
I just don't like it as well. I love Awake, and I'm sure I'll grow to
like FII almost as much.
"Hi. My name is Glenn Waterfield and Images and Words is my favorite
album of all time."
Peace.
Glenn
P.S. For those of you who love I&W, I highly recommend Shadow Gallery's
"Carved in Stone." Great stuff.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:07:04 -0400
From: JB <beamup@vt.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: poking fun at the dead guys
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970925150704.007b8e30@192.168.255.1>
>Am I the only one around here who thinks it's pretty low of Mr.
>Portnoy et. al. to poke fun at Shannon Hoon and Kurt Cobain in
>'Just Let Me Breath'? I can just imagine the outcry from enraged
probably.... To me its just a big "wake-up"... these guys weren't anything
special, and they get immortalized more for killing themselves, than for
their music. (i.e. I'm not a nirvana fan, and to date have only heard
smells like teen spirit, yet I know who Kurt Cobain is because of his
highly publicized "HERO" death).... I love other bands, such as Def
Leppard, but couldn't tell you who their lead singer is/was (from the
period I like).
Dream Theater (esp. Portnoy), seems to be just pissed off that such a
coward's exit from the world is rewarded by enshrining the person to an
almost godlike/heroic status. The message he seems to be sending is,
"hey, this is all fuked up!... You should be merited for your music, not
for killing yourself).... I'm sure after eMpTyV hearalded Mr. Cobain,
Nirvana sales experienced a huge spike. Why? Because some loser killed
himself? That's just plain stupid... and as such, MP feels obligated to
comment on it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jason Brindel
Computer Engineering '97
Virginia Tech
beamup@vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/beamup
(540)961-7262
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:24:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "L. Jason Hartman" <lhartm1@gl.umbc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: to the shirtlifter
Message-ID: <199709251924.PAA13729@umbc8.umbc.edu>
]From the last jam...
-- ]From: KillMary <caschulze@mindspring.com>I would like to apologize to L. Jason Hartman.
I saw your first post and went postal, I thought it was you who wrote that. I think this Jordan dude deserves all I've said, and then some more. I'm sorry if I didn't go through your second post, I just saw that it repeated the same things. Again, I apologize.
/me feels like an idiot now. ---
No problem. I'm kinda glad you did it because it gave me a good reason to whip out the old finger. :) Everyone loves it! Whenever I have posted it in the past, I always get 6-10 messages from folks saying that they were rolling on the floor.
-- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ / / L. Jason Hartman "And I'll smile and I'll learn to pretend \ \ lhartm1@gl.umbc.edu And I'll never be open again / / And I'll have no more dreams to defend \ \ Univ. Of Maryland, And I'll never be open again " / / Baltimore County - Kevin Moore : Dream Theater \ \ / / "Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot." \ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:49:29 -0400 From: Joshua Malone <jmalone@mail.vt.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: The REAL story about clipping Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970925144920.006a4ee4@mail.vt.edu>
>My guess as to why the FII waveforms are, for the most part, a square block, is >that the audio is HEAVILY COMPRESSED and LIMITED at digital zero. This is >done to make your cd SCREAM out of your speakers at the highest possible >percieved volume that can be crammed onto a cd. This does NOT automatically >result in a distorted audio signal.
Sure - Lots of bands use very heavy compression. You have to - especially on things like poppy bass and distortion guitar. However - this is USUALLY done to prevent what has happened on FII and, when done well, results in a slightly tapered, but STILL ROUNDED waveform. The waveforms of FII are not round - they're flat. How can sound "SCREAM of of your speakers" if the driver's pegged (no waveform movement = no sound).
>DYNAMIC RANGE - the difference in level (in dB) between the quietest >portion of the program material and the loudest portion of the program >material. >To my ears, the dynamic range of FII is between 5dB and 10dB. >The dynamic range of a cd is 96 dB. >The statement that FII was recorded with more dynamic range >than a cd can handle is incorrect. The mastering engineer did NOT simply >clip the waveform at digital zero.
OK - I have to admit to a misuse of terminology here. The point I was trying to make was that the maximum level that the sound should reach is higher than that that can be stored digitally onto a CD. What should have been done was to reduce the overall level by about 5-db. If you want loud, turn up your amplifier. This isn't like analog cassette; you can't just squeeze and extra 3 or 4 db onto the tape and hope you don't saturate the magnetic medium. With digital if you're over the 16-bit word size, you clip. Yes - the mastering engineer DID clip the waveform at digital zero.
>To the guy who recorded FII into his computer and saw the waveform - try >doing it with other cds that have been released over the last few years. I >think youll find the same thing.
I have. On an average CD, the sound level will never actually go all the way up to 0db. On a very well engineered CD, the loudest part on the CD will hit 0db once or twice, not every .1 seconds.
-Josh
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:42:00 -0500 From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Faling Back Into the Jam (pt1) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970925194200.00caa21c@pop.enteract.com>
>From: "S.D.D." <103430.227@compuserve.com> >Subject: FALLING INTO ???... > >I have not received the YTSEJAM digests for about a year now (as many of >you know that their quality has greatly diminished), so I am unaware of the >opinions of the new album by the net critics, but I just thought I, as a fellow >admirer of Dream Theater's music and a musician, would contribute my >little candid "review" of the new album for those who may be interested.
This preface draws your intentions into question. Are you back on the jam? If so, may I be the first to welcome you back (No sarcasm at all). If not, may I ask why you're posting here if you're no longer a member? I do appreciate your post, but we've seen and will continue to see many like it, so while I can appreciate the effort, I can't help but wonder what would make a non-member of the list feel urged to post to a list he feels somehow inclined to debase. If you're just sharing your opinions with online Dream Theater fans, that's what the newsgroup is for. But again, if you're back, keep up the great posts!
>I know many DT fans were half-expecting to be somewhat disappointed by >DT's supposed new song formats (i.e. hooks, catchy choruses, shorter >lengths, too melodic, dilution more accessible to radio, etc.), but after I heard >"Falling Into Infinity," I saw that, for the most part, these accusations were either >exaggerated or essentially non-issues for me (excepting pop man Desmond >Child's "You Not Me" - which definitely would have been better with reworked >lyrics/vocals; and the 80's-style "Anna Lee" - sorry James).
I agree... I think it's all pretty exaggerated, greatly by those people who are looking at Dream Theater as technical idols, who exist more to show what they can do to their instruments than to make the music that they want to make. Personally, I think You Not Me is one of the best songs on the album... I like it from end to end. There's a logical argument to be made that it's written as Dream Theater +, that is, it's written by a 6 member version of Dream Theater, so if you want to treat it differently, I can't say that it's not Desmond Child's fault you don't like it. But unless you ask Petrucci which parts he wrote, you can't say it's not Petrucci's fault you dislike it. Don't be so quick to blame the other guy, just because in the past you've liked Petrucci's work. Likely, those of you who dislike this song dislike Petrucci AND Child's work, or in some cases, you simply can't get past the collaboration of Petrucci and Desmond Child. Either way... nipples. I'd also suspect that eventually Anna Lee will grow on most Ytsejammers; it seems to be that kind of song. I already like it (I didn't like some of the vocals on the first couple listens).
>Lyrically, there does not appear to be a single ray of light, hope, >encouragement, positivity or anything edifying or Godly in the entire hour >and twenty minutes; not even from the usually uplifting Myung. Even the >generally harsh "Awake" album was more inspiring than Infinity in places!
Overall, the album has a darker feel, sure. However, if you read the lyrics to A New Millennium, Lines in the Sand, and Trial of Tears though, they reflect a sense of perseverance; they're more about overcoming than succumbing to the pressures and forces of life. That to me is definitely an uplifting theme. Lines in the Sand epitomizes this: "Maybe the anguish we survive, and the mysteries we nurture are the fabrics of our lives." The song has a markedly Christian undertone (Though that doesn't conflict with or strengthen what I'm saying here). The album on a whole seems to be about the band... about Dream Theater. It's a bit of an introspection. Bearing in mind what the band had been going through when these songs were written (None of them, to my knowledge, was written very recently), you would expect a certain lack of positivity.
>I hope you are skimming through the YTSEJAM e-mails today Mike - you >especially need to lighten up.
I think you're way out of line here. Are you saying they should rewrite their material? Are you saying they shouldn't write what's coming naturally to them? That is the antithesis of art... you can't force yourself to go east when your soul is crying "west". To do so would eliminate all vitality from the work. Certainly they could write some songs about the more "pleasant" things they've experienced recently, but that doesn't offer a valid reason to abandon the work they've already put in, thus creating an extremely emotional and contemplative piece of work.
>I don't think you guys know how much influence you have on so many >people (particularly the highly mercurial, embittered and rebellious bulk >of the "Generation X"), but it's a serious responsibility to be doing what you >five are doing.
I think they know exactly what influence they're hoping for, and you can't know what influence you'll actually have until you take action. I think some of these songs are meant to get your blood pumping. I think others are made for you to sit back and experience the pains that they've experienced. We all agree most of the time, that music is basically an expression of emotion. The goal then, would be to write a song that embodies the emotion you set out to personify. Songs like Take Away My Pain do that better than just about any song I've ever heard. It still brings tears to my eyes when I listen and think about what I'm hearing. I think your argument that they should tone down what they're doing because they have a "serious responsibility" to keep people stable is ludicrous. If someone wants to hear emotional music... or even angry music, he or she is going to seek it out. If I don't get my rocks off listening to "Burning My Soul", I may just go listen to "Fucking Hostile" to vent. I'm certainly not going to put on "Surrounded". To say that a band has a responsibility for its fans is to endorse censorship, and to take the accountability from the individual, and that's just what people are claiming is the _problem_ with "Generation X." I won't even get into the shades of red I see when people start using "Generation X" as a generalized group of thugs and hoodlums with no concept of morality, direction, or intelligence as you seem to.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:43:22 -0500 From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Falling Back Into the Jam (pt2) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970925194322.0074db28@pop.enteract.com>
>The darker side of human emotions (pain, frustration, anger, loneliness, >betrayal, doubt, confusion, fear, disappointment, stress, etc.) have their >appropriate time and place
Conform to a standard then, and do not deviate, even for the sake of art? Who dictates this standard of appropriateness? Don't you see the problem with this line of reasoning?
>but you've got to be careful with how you channel such feelings and attitudes >into music, and, though it is not always particularly easy, such things should >always be balanced out in following songs (which, sadly, is lacking in Infinity).
For the sake of discussion, I ask why do you have to be careful? Is there a danger? Emotions are not always balanced. Images and Words was an overwhelmingly bouncy and happy album (minor keys obviously do not dictate mood). Perhaps the intent was to balance with this album? But no, I don't personally agree with the whole concept of a necessary balance of emotions on an album. That can take away from the music more than it adds to the "unstable listener's" piece of mind. I don't think an artist should be concerned with the emotional stability of the people who will experience his or her art. That imposes limitations, which should never, never interfere with expression.
>Though Infinity's lyrics were generally negative (at least leaving the listener >hanging), I was glad to see that they were not entirely like those of previous >albums in that much of the lyrical content previously was cryptic, >quasi-Jungian/-Catholic, and pseudo-"deep" psychospiritual poetry and >philosophy <snip>
This is somewhat insulting, I feel, but it's your opinion. So long as you agree with my right to appreciate what you deem worthless in this respect, I have no issues with you here. I simply disagree wholeheartedly with your proclamations of a supposed lack of originality. Owning albums by all of the bands you mention, I simply don't hear enough of an influence to judge the music so obdurately as you have.
>I think DT would benefit greatly from a new instrumentalist(s) who has a >fresh foreign style or one who plays a completely atypical instrument, such >as an innovative rock violinist (perhaps Myung could do some of that here >and there).
This is just the point. Throughout this post, you're hinting that you want Dream Theater to be other than the band that they are. You make suggestions of radical changes which, if exacted, would make the band completely different. At least with their changes over the years, Dream Theater has always been Dream Theater. I think these sorts of fantasies are so plentiful and outlandish that no one would ever agree upon which changes should be implemented. That's why we leave it to the band. I'd personally like to see Ray Alder and James LaBrie doing dual lead vocals, and I'd like the band to be backed by an orchestra, with Paganini on concert violin.... but I'd rather have Dream Theater do what they want to do. I can save the fantasies for my own band, where I _should_ be able to exercise such controls.
> I do prefer Kevin's more dynamic touches with pitchbending, vibrato <snip>
And just for the record, there's probably more pitch bending and radical vibrato on the keyboards now then ever before. Some of what sound like guitar parts are actually keyboard parts. That takes complete mastery of your pitch bend and modulation skills. I would really like to discuss this further. If you do respond, please CC the ytsejam (unless of course you're back on the list), since this really is a public discussion, and I feel that though it's pretty long, it's pretty interesting.
- CWP
(This was sent to the original poster as well, but it was too long for one ytsejam post)
Christopher W. Ptacek IRC: Madsman Tech Support EnterAct, L.L.C. http://www.enteract.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
"You can be a dreamer You can be your dream come true Let imagination lead Reality will follow through" - Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:05:21 +0200 From: Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: UAGM Message-ID: <32EA5971.7444@Netvision.net.il>
Francisco Miguel wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the what is the chord progression the synth plays > on the UAGM guitar solo?
Well, check out the MIDI files (there are a few... just go through the DT web ring) or, well, just transcribe it yourself.... not THAT difficult.....
-- Shai Yallin - Kurush on #YTSEJAM
"I'm American, honey. Our names don't mean shit." - Bruce Willis on Pulp Fiction
"How can you keep your head up and not go insane when the only light at the end of the tunnel is another train" - Mike Portnoy
Visit my home page at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/3247
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:55:59 -0400 From: "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: RE: YTSEJAM digest 3018 Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=AMSC%l=AMSC_NTAS-970925195559Z-6399@amsc_ntas.amsc.belvoir.army.mil>
Steve Chew Wrote.. > >Cool! > I just got this email from a DJ (named Stash) at 98 Rock in >Baltimore. It's in response to my request (last week) that they play >the new DT. So, all you Baltimore/DC Ytsejammers should turn into >98 Rock (97.9). I guess some of you have already heard BMS there. > And once you've done that, send email to DC101 (request@dc101.com) >and let's get them to play DT too!! :-)
Don't hold your breath. There was a time when 98Rock actually beat 101 in the DC ratings, because 101 sucks so bad. They really haven't improved much, either...
I figured 98 would play BMS - they used to play the LATM version of PMU from time to time, so they obviously like the band - and most of the same DJ's are still there.
BTW, did you come to Fates? I met so many people that night that things kinda blur together...
Pat "Fantasy Football" Daugherty said...
>I agree with Pat Sullivan that there isn't a problem with DT mentioning >them for killing themselves. They are deities now just like a lot of >other musicians who have had early deaths. Whether they killed themselves >or puked to death, people still think of them as better musicians than >they did when the musicians were alive. That is what the song is trying >to get across. Anyway ever heard of freedom of speech?
I agree - if the MTV media engine didn't exist, their deaths would have just been another couple of band members 'od - ing. As it is, I heard someone say that "Nevermind" was the musical watershed of the nineties. If that's the case, then give me back the eighties, please. At least women wore short skirts to clubs then... :)
Mike O wrote...
>DYNAMIC RANGE - the difference in level (in dB) between the quietest >portion of the program material and the loudest portion of the program >material. > >To my ears, the dynamic range of FII is between 5dB and 10dB.
That sounds about right... > >The dynamic range of a cd is 96 dB.
Didn't know that off of the top of my head - I didn't think it was that much, though. I learn more things from the 'jam... :) > >The statement that FII was recorded with more dynamic range >than a cd can handle is incorrect. The mastering engineer did NOT simply >clip the waveform at digital zero. > >My guess as to why the FII waveforms are, for the most part, a square block, >is >that the audio is HEAVILY COMPRESSED and LIMITED at digital zero. This is >done to make your cd SCREAM out of your speakers at the highest possible >percieved volume that can be crammed onto a cd. This does NOT automatically > result in a distorted audio signal.
No, but I think it ruins the subtlety of a recording - with everything so close in volume, I think the perception of the music is diminished. Call me crazy, but I like soft parts to be soft...
(Did I really just say that? UP THE VOLUME, AND BRING MY MOTORHEAD AND MANOWAR CD'S!)
:) > >The mastering engineer is probably not to blame for this. I bet Kevin >Shirley put all >his mixes through a high end stereo tube compressor. THEN i bet he ran the >mixes >through an ULTRA-MAXIMIZER - DSP-plug in software that basically pushes the >level >of the mix as close as possible to (if not right at) digital zero.
Major label quality mastering engineers don't make mistakes like that. I would guess you are correct - giving me yet another reason not to like Mr. Shirley's style... :) >
The Internationally Famous D-Man wrote...
>> this disk. I've been listening the piss out of this CD for the last 3 days >> and have noticed a distinct sound quality which I attributed to crappy >> headphones. It sounded cluttered - no definition in any of the load > >Maybe if you stop pissing on your headphones...
Unless that's the sort of thing you're into - that rushing water sound...
>> the most progressive part of the song seamlessly right back into the >> straight ahead groove part. They fucked with you while you were asleep >> and you didn't even know it :):) > >I once described why I liked Surrounded so much this way. It lulls you in, >strokes your hair, makes you think everything is normal and peaceful... but >by >the time you realize that you were in 4/4 - 5/4, the song has taken off... >with your wallet.
THIS sounds like the voice of experience! Don't you know to always be the last to go to sleep, and the first to wake up?
>_____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________________ >E-mail: psull@ici.net >IRC: DDictator >WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html >NP: Drain STH - "Horror Wrestling" >______________________________________________________________
You listen to this CD constantly, don't you? :)
Well, what a shock, I STILL don't like the production... :)
Mike > > >
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:56:56 -0700 (MST) From: Koby <disciple@asu.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Peruvian skiis [sic] Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970925105314.12717A-100000@general1.asu.edu>
Whenever I hear the begining of Peruvian skies, I always expect to hear the "lead singer of metallica guy" sing "I'm making my wayyyyeeeeee...". Anyone else? PS: I don't own any metallica discs-- just heard that tune on the radio.
Koby. http://www.public.asu.edu/~kobyfue/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:18:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "A. Williamson" <ajwilli@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Quit your bitching Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970925151517.92412A-100000@green.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Nice job guys, I like it.
To everyone else who is bitching so much:
Find another band that doesn't make you think.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:19:55 +0200 From: Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Semi-FIIR Message-ID: <32EA6AEB.21B4@Netvision.net.il>
Hi there once again!
I just wanted to say a few things regarding :
1) The guitar solo on TAMP gives me the creeps every time I hear it. (is this the right way to say it?) One of the best JP solos ever... Awesome....
2) Anna Lee is a beatiful song (ok, so it ain't 6:00, but hey, what the hell?!?!) it's full of emotion... i love that chorused hammond when the drums come in....
3) Don't quite get PS. Kinda boring.
4) It's gonna take a while to get into ANM and ToT.... but hey... I got all of the time in the world....
For conclusion.... Best $22 i've ever spent since I&W (Awake was half-price so it dosen't count....)
/me kicks himself for saying that derek sux....
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3019 **************************
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