YTSEJAM Digest 3840
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Megador...er...MMMMMMMMMEGADETH!!!!!
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
2) Bass playing talk + Crap talk 'bout Rush
by Per Pettersson <nv99701@egymn.tranemo.se>
3) re: ROTFLMAO
by cluesump@sirius.com (Charoenkwan Luesumphan)
4) Help!
by Per Pettersson <nv99701@egymn.tranemo.se>
5) Hello idiocy
by Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
6) Musical writing credit divisions
by Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
7) Re: van halen
by Paul Kendall <pkendall@wave.co.nz>
8) The music theory debate rages on
by Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3827
by babs@sgenaa.cc.geneseo.edu (Barb Battaglia)
10) Re:hello
by Matej Grginic <matej@stones.com>
11) Re: Bass Players/ a Personal Quandary
by "Giannotti, Nick" <GiannottiN@hanscom.af.mil>
12) Re: Birch Hill
by Matthew Smith <ktulu@arches.uga.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:05:20 -0600
From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Megador...er...MMMMMMMMMEGADETH!!!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980505010518.0069b9a4@postoffice.syspac.com>
Jimmy the ThunderBitch wrote:
>will admit that I didn't give the whole album a real close listen, and I
>did kinda like the song that got played on the radio, but most of the stuff
>I heard was real generic.
>maybe I
>was a little harsh since it ain't my thang no more, but I still really get
>off to kick ass heavy guitar or just plain cool guitar, and I didn't hear
>much on Cryptic writings.
After reading these two parts of your post, it's OBVIOUS you didn't listen
to Cryptic Writings. Oh, and btw, PSYCHOtron fucking kicks ass. About the
only MD songs I don't like are off Killing...
~Vinnie, Eckie's alter-ego, NOT! 8^D
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:51:56 +0100
From: Per Pettersson <nv99701@egymn.tranemo.se>
To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Bass playing talk + Crap talk 'bout Rush
Message-ID: <98May5.105558gmt+0100.31361@gate.tranemo.se>
Hi ya!
The discussion up on the YML regarding bass playing is in need of my =
involvment, trust me!
I am myself a bass player (now, I've only played for 2,5 years - but I'm =
a quick learner!), and the =
shred-as-fast-as-a-locomotive-'til-your-fingers-(-pick? =
Nah.)-bleed-style doesn't appeal to me the least. It might be cool to =
make a good impression on people who know less about music yourself =
(e.g. 8-year olds and relatives without musical talents) - but when it =
comes to mixing it into song ensembles (rock groups), it's almost =
impossible to make it sound good. Well, depending on the song and style, =
of course... I mean... think about "Comfortably Numb" with death =
metal-phrased solo licks every and other measure... YUCK! :~P
Pick bassists are losers! (including Jason Newstead)
Oh, well, I have to admit that when I had an infected sore on my right =
index finger, I used a pick... I HATED it!
As someone said, it's the feeling and emotion that matters! And with =
that I have two words: Stu Hamm! Whooha! (Just don't get this as a start =
for a new thread on emotional bass playing, PLEASE!)
A couple of days ago, I really listened to "Chronicles" - the Rush =
collection. I bought a long time ago, listened through it once, didn't =
understand why people like them, then lend it out to a friend. Now when =
I listened to them again, I really DO understand! These guys are gods! =
Yeah!
Good thing Neil Peart joined 'em back in '74. Isn't it? Not only is he a =
freakin' fantastic drummer... I mean...:
"Yeah, oh yeah!
Ooh, said I, I'm comin' out to get you.
Ooh, sit down, I'm comin' out to find you.
Ooh, yeah. Ooh yeah.
Findin' my way!"
I'm personally against all "Oh yeah"'s, "Oooh oooh"'s, "baby babe"'s and =
stuff like that in song lyrics. I guess that's why I have such a problem =
with PF's (Roger Waters') "The Wall", even though I love it as much as =
my mother! Or perhaps not... no...
//Per Pettersson's...
..Favourite album right now: Bjorn Lynne - "The Void"
.Favourite song right now: Rush - "Distant Early Warning"
..Favourite song right now #2: Dream Theater - "Learning to Live"
//Per
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 03:35:46 -0800
From: cluesump@sirius.com (Charoenkwan Luesumphan)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: re: ROTFLMAO
Message-ID: <v01540b00b174a8dd82cf@[205.134.245.43]>
Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com> wrote:
>Well, you can't argue what is listenable. I can't listen to Univers Zero -
>but I've heard a lot of people on the jam that love them. You can argue
>whether someone is sloppy or has poor technique - but listenable? If anyone
>had the answers to what is listenable and what isn't and therefore what should
>be music and what shouldn't, their CD collection would be the entire catalog
>of music.
My answer is "music is a matter of taste", so there is no conclusion about
what is listenable or what is not in my opinion. I personally DO enjoy
listening to Univer Zero or Present albums very much.
You may have to hear some of Nurse With Wound, Zoviet France or Current 93
albums that are considered as music albums but some people might think that
those albums are just some noises.
Regards,
AE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Prog Maniac" homepage: http://www.sirius.com/~cluesump
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:27:07 +0100
From: Per Pettersson <nv99701@egymn.tranemo.se>
To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Help!
Message-ID: <98May5.123107gmt+0100.31361@gate.tranemo.se>
I know it's not DT or anything, but could anyone surf to =
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/6982/index.html , look at =
the HTML, and tell me WHY the form doesn't work?
(I made the site...)
//Per
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:38:10 EDT
From: Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Hello idiocy
Message-ID: <38d6dec3.354eec13@aol.com>
Here's the thread being discussed:
Can someone tell me about MI and Berklee? - Mauricio, I think
Hey, I went to MI / I liked it except one teacher - me
You have to know the rules before you can break them - Adam Cook
WTF, music theory is theory not music rules - me
You're an idiot, I don't have a clue - Kevin Carmouche
And now, my retort.
Kevin "almost everything you said is total idiocy"
Only to an idiot
Kevin "You say you don't see anybody wanting to play music they don't write???
The quote to which Kevin was referring "I can't imagine somebody wanting to
play a musical instrument but not want to write music."
Can someone tell me what Kevin is referring to? How can you comment on
something you can't even comprehend? I never said I don't see anybody wanting
to play music they don't write. If you are going to debate something, make
sure you know what you are arguing about.
Kevin "And, technique and theory are NEVER useless in true MUSIC"
The quote in question "And without music in your head, technique and theory
are worthless - unless you want to be in a cover band or be a non-writing
member."
I didn't say technique and theory are useless. I said they are useless
without having a sense of music to begin with. I don't know about you, but I
didn't learn theory and then start having musical thoughts. I had musical
thoughts and then decided to learn music theory to obtain a better grasp of my
musical thoughts. There may be some people out there who have absolutely no
music in them but know music theory and have stellar technique, but I am sure
they aren't writing brilliant compositions like "Lines in the Sand" or
"Voices". So once again, you argued a point that wasn't there to argue,
idiot.
Kevin "One cannot appropriately express his or her style without having the
ability to do it."
I think I made that point with "Technique can limit what you want to play." I
will take the heat on this one, because I should have said "Lack of technique
can limit what you want to play." I would have thought the statements
preceding this one made it clear, but I forgot that there may be a couple of
idiots out there who forget words as soon as they read them aloud to
themselves.
I'll actually defer to John Petrucci for a quote on this one:
"if you hear something in your head, but you're not technically proficient
enough to play it, the whole expression thing is blown." GW March 1993, page
70.
I agree 100%. Notice how John started with "hear something in your head".
Wow, he must have musical thoughts that maynot have been a derivative of Music
Theory, but rather John may just be musically gifted. And he has enough
brains to add music theory to his repertoire without letting it dominate.
Amazing.
Kevin "When you look at great musicians, what do they have in common?? They
all KNOW THEORY."
You should have capitalized ALL so you can highlight your stupidity. I think
you are pretty naive to even to think that ALL great musicians know theory. I
KNOW that there are quite a few GREAT MUSICIANS that don't know music theory.
I could name a few, but then it opens up the useless debate of what a GREAT
MUSICIAN is. And what do you mean KNOW THEORY. To what degree? If I know
that the Western Scales are made up primarily of half-steps (semi-tones), i
know SOME theory. Western music theory. I hope you don't assume that when
you say KNOW THEORY, you mean they know ALL of MUSIC THEORY. I want to meet
some one who knows ALL of MUSIC THEORY and shake his or her hand.
Kevin - "Do we consider rappers to be great musicians?? hell no, or at least i
hope not, very few of them know much, if anything, about MUSIC, they know how
to entertain, and know how to write words, but that's about it
I am not so arrogant as to dismiss rap as just entertainers writing words. I
will admit I don't have a rap album in my collection, but I have heard some
very interesting MUSIC come from RAP. Will you rag on INDUSTRIAL also,
because I think that INDUSTRIAL can be very MUSICALLY exciting. Oh yeah,
rappers are evil because they sample - wait - DT uses samples also. And I
have noticed a few pictures with Mike Portnoy wearing a Public Enemy T-Shirt.
This doesn't mean that I should buy Public Enemy's CDs, but if someone who is
so obviously gifted at MAKING MUSIC, listens to rap - there might be something
to it.
Kevin - "You say that music came before rules, well, that may be true, if
you're talking about ancient tribal music, but, Western music as it has become
is based around certain tonal principles that should never be forgotten"
Ah, no. Music Theory isn't limited to Western Music, nor is Western Music
limited to Music Theory. Western Music Theory is a growing and expanding
field. Jazz, Industrial, even Rap have proven that. And don't even argue
that you have to know Music Theory before you can intelligently ADD to it.
Most of the ideas that make up Western Music Theory are taken from generations
of msuciain's that didn't know Music Theory. Or is there a GOD of Music
Theory that wrote the Music Theory Bible and then we all followed it?
Kevin - "Musicians don't have to be university trained either, but they do
need
to know their shit" ... "I'm into more progressive metal and jazz, because
most of them know what they're doing"
So if Portnoy's next post was "I don't know a scale from my ass. I just write
music" (which I know isn't true) - then everything Portnoy ever wrote would
suddenly become invalid? I don't think so. I don't like Dream Theater
because he went to Berklee and understands music theory, I like them because
the music they write is very unique. Before DT, I loved Rush and I loved
Metallica - but something was missing. Along with my own music, DT filled
that void. They are more complex than Rushtallica, but I don't want to go
into that.
Kevin - "if you want no rules, or think that "anything goes," then go pick up
the latest #1 CD or some other shit that some popular band comes out with"
So anything goes equals popular music. I don't think so. Popular music is
usually the most basic of Music Theory. I like your THEORY that Music Theory
equals Great Musicians. Too bad it is flawed.
Music Theory is an EXPLANATION of music. That is all it is. Understanding
Music through Music Theory's EXPLANATION can help improve your musicianship -
but it can't make it.
Kevin - "I get really peeved at the idea that music should be just some thrown
together mess"
I get really peeved when some idiot thinks that the only people who can make
music are people who know music theory. And for your information, I know a
fair amount of music theory. It helped me understand what I already had in my
head musically. It also helped me explore new ideas by playing with music
theory. However, my best compositions are spawned purely from inspiration.
Once the original idea is in my head, then I use theory to understand my
musical idea. After that, I can embellish the song with either more
inspiration driven from the song or other thoughts OR EVEN using Music Theory.
I never said Music Theory was useless. If you chop up my sentence I did, but
if you had the ability to read a whole sentence dare I say paragraph or even
post - you would have realized this. Now all you have accomplished is a
display of your lack of comprehension.
May I now refer to you as IDIOT?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:13:27 EDT
From: Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Musical writing credit divisions
Message-ID: <fa045a58.354ef458@aol.com>
Richard A. Rivera wrote:
<< if the credits are more specific, such as "Music: Ptacek, Syrinx"
and"Lyrics: D-man" then things change since the automatic default of the
courts is 50% for the music and 50% for the lyrics. Thus, barring any internal
agreement to the contrary, Ptacek and Syrinx would have to split the 50% music
credit (25% a piece) and D-man gets to keep his full 50%.>>
As far as my understanding is concerned, you are 100% correct. Later on you
hinted you were a drummer. You are very intelligent and well spoken for a
drummer :o) (that's sarcasm if anyone missed it). When I read your post, I
sometimes wish I took the time to reread my posts to make sure I haven't left
anything out or misconstrued an idea. But, I doubt it will ever happen :o)
As far as the courts division of Music = 50% / Lyrics = 50%, what do other
people think of this? Although I don't subscribe to the IDEA that the Music
50% / Lyrics 50% division is a perfect division - I like the simple idea the
courts took. I'd rather have a simple 50/50 division with a prearranged
agreement having priority in the courts. I hate when the courts decide to put
their hands in something they shouldn't. I like the fact that the took the
layman's thoughts of "In a song, you have music and words" and just decided to
not make music composition rights easier to understand than the tax code.
Code because it is about as easy to grasp as a foreign language or code.
Richard's response that I my way of handling song division begins with
automatically giving the person with the original riff/idea 51%:
<<Sure, they're providing the creative springboard, but haven't you been in
situations where you present something to a band and by the end of the session
your initial idea has changed keys, changed time signatures, changed tempos,
etc? >>
Absolutely. And that is the reason why I give the initiator 51%. It allows
the initiator to be more open to change. Music shouldn't be clouded by money,
but it is very easy to have this happen. So making this initial rule opens up
particiption. If the initial riff is 10% of the song and I finish up the
other 90% - I will still allow the initiator to have 51%. After all, it is
his/her riff that triggered my ideas. I wouldn't tell anyone to use this
method, I was just relaying my experience.
To tell you the truth, I am usually the initiator - but I love when other
people throw in their ideas. I usually concentrate more on how to get
everyone else involved. I hate it when people leave out the drummer because
they think writing a drum line to complement the song is easy. A bad drum
line can destroy a song. It can also bring it to a whole new level. That
goes for solos to. I love that song from White Lion "Wait" solely because the
guitar solo is brilliant. I still have that CD in my collection because of
the solos. Anything that embellishes the song is worth giving credit for.
You brought up dividing other rights to favor the non-writing members of the
band. To me, if the writing members are driving $100-200K cars and the non-
writing members are driving $1K cars - they are either being screwed or lazy.
Maybe they shouldn't be in the band. It may even motivate them to write. I
don't think I would ever take it that far though. I might be willing to give
non-writing members a larger non-writing division if they decide to do
something to strengthen that area. If the bass player doesn't write (picked
bass out of the blue), but makes a great webpage - they do deserve a decent
amount of merchandising.
Okay, so most of us aren't making enough money to even practice these ideas,
but foresight is never foolish.
This is a very cool thread. I think discussing the business side of music is
very helpful. I know there are quite a few misconceptions out there. And the
business side can be just as varied as the music side.
On the origin of the thread, if EVH can share the writing credits to ensure
band stability - he is an amazing human. Although, somebody mentioned he has
had second thoughts. But who knows, if Michael Anthony got pissed and left if
he didn't get as much money - maybe somebody cool could come in and play bass.
I think Billy Sheehan would be great in Van Halen. Even DLR knew that :o)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:21:59 +1200
From: Paul Kendall <pkendall@wave.co.nz>
To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: van halen
Message-ID: <l03130301b1749954d654@[203.96.193.166]>
Matej Grginic <matej@stones.com> wrote:
>One question, I heard they played their older material
>mostly so far on this tour. What did they play from VHIII?
The shows were generally broken down into a third of DLR songs, a third of
Sammy songs and a third of the new songs. The songs played off VHIII
included:
Without You
One I Want
Dirty Water Dog (with didgeridoo in Melbourne)
Fire In The Hole
Josephina
Year To The Day
That's a total of 6 songs. 10 different DLR tunes were played but only 7
of these were played consistently, the others being alternated. The same 5
Sammy songs were played at almost every show. Remember that Gary chose
what older songs they played and not surprisingly two of the Roth songs are
among his favourites. I won't list all the songs as I don't want to spoil
it for those that intend to see them. Expect a few surprises on the US
tour.
>How did it sound live?
All the songs off VHIII sounded so much better live. To me the highlights
were Without You, One I Want, Josephina and Year To The Day.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:56:16 EDT
From: Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: The music theory debate rages on
Message-ID: <540f4c16.354efe62@aol.com>
And it is a groundless debate:
Rocky states "....had some FORM to it, not just mindless wanking on any note
that your finger touches"
How do you guys draw these conclusions? I never said I just wank on any note
my finger touches. Far from it. I follow what is in my head. How can that
be wrong?
Rocky goes on "...but even as wild as some jazz can be, they always fallow
some music basis."
Well - what is music? You can't even argue that. When I was at MI, there
were quite a few guys playing some very experimental Jazz (wait, somebody told
me MI didn't have jazz). I didn't like it, but I never dismissed it as noise.
I even liked it to a point, but I just don't listen to it as much other types
of music. Dare I say - rock style music. Heck, some "rock" guys would even
turn the treble and presence on their amp down, roll off the tone pot - put on
a clean sound and play an R2-D2 sound and laugh "Cool man. I'm a Jazz cat."
My retort was "hey, if that is all you think Jazz is, you are missing out. I
could scoop out my mids, crank the gain and play a chromatic power chord
(that's slang for roots with Perfect Fifths) and say 'I'm Metal' and you'd get
pissed. So don't belittle Jazz." So what is music? I guess Avant-garde
music is an oxymoron if we follow the them that music must have form and use
theory.
Rocky in reference to Slayer "...because when the one guy decided to learn to
play guitar on the SITA CD he actually tried to stay in key, and not sound
horrible, BUT he kept his unique stlye of wanking, it's just more in key now,
and not a screaming Eb over an E5 chord."
What is wrong with an Eb over an E5 chord? An E5 chord is pretty ambiguous.
Eb can add quite a bit of tension, as it is a leading tone. And does the
leading tone need to resolve to the tonic? Not necessarily. Hell, Dweezil
loves to play with this stuff. And if you take that Eb and bend up to E -
that's pretty standard theory. In key? I can think of quite a few scales
that use E as the root and also contain the Perfect Fifth (B) and the leading
tonic (Eb, but it would be referred to as D#). Here are a few:
Major / Ionian
Lydian
Harmonic Minor
Melodic Minor
Lydian #9
Augmented
Neopolitan Major
Neopolitan Minor
So with only taking E / B / D# into consideration - all of these scales would
make Eb (D#) IN KEY. Oh yeah, and I am the guy that is supposedly ANTI-THEORY
...if taken from a moron's perspective.
And for the record, I don't like the early Slayer solos and they most likely
are just wank fests of no form, but I won't dismiss it as that. Just because
I think it is noise doesn't mean others think it is.
Please. Keep the posts coming. When I find one that actually argues with
something I have said, I may consider that pesons point of view. But if you
are going to debate something that wasn't even part of the original post, well
go ahead and post. I don't care. I can argue theory. I bet half of the
people who argue that theory is a necessity haven't progressed much further
than the basic modes.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:21:46 -0500 (EST)
From: babs@sgenaa.cc.geneseo.edu (Barb Battaglia)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3827
Message-ID: <v01510101b1747c7c0159@[137.238.26.12]>
>In case anyone's interested, I checked with TicketBastard last night and they
>told me that tickets for the DP/DT/ELP show in Canandaigua, NY at the Finger
>Lakes PAC on August 14 goes on sale at 10:00 AM on Monday, May 18.
Woo hoo!!!! This made my whole day!!! An upstate show!!!!!! Thank you.
Babs
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:20:36 +0200
From: Matej Grginic <matej@stones.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re:hello
Message-ID: <354F0414.696A1BE5@stones.com>
some bonehead wrote:
>
><a href="http://www.cybererotica.com/ad/cybererotica.cgi/fc_210">
> Click here for even more!!!!</a>
>
>
>
>Sign Up Free For One Week!!!
WHAT THE F. ?!
I want this man executed!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:38:45 -0400
From: "Giannotti, Nick" <GiannottiN@hanscom.af.mil>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Bass Players/ a Personal Quandary
Message-ID: <4AA929543BC8D111A4E800600808ACE520A407@HAMSXHA2>
Chris Ptacek wrote,
>False. Absofalsilutely. You can use fingers as fast and sometimes
>faster than people can pick. I don't know about Metallica (though I
>thought Cliff was a non pick player) but if you look so far as the
>EXTREME of speed bass playing, there are death metal bassists who go
>all fingers. I know you're not going to say the Metallica is faster
>than Cannibal Corpse (as far as BPM)... how could it be that you'd
>require a pick to play Metallica and not to play Cannibal?
Not in all circumstances is this false: I have a disorder in my right hand
that makes it impossible for me to use my pinky and ring finger, thus
limiting me to my index and middle fingers when I pluck at the strings. For
straight-ahead rock & roll, progressive stuff, and the blues, I can use my
fingers (let me rephrase
that: I won't use a pick), but if I want to play as fast as I possibly can,
then I'll use a pick, because it's physically impossible for me to get close
to that speed with my fingers.
My Personal Quandary:
A friend of mine dared me to learn "Clutching at Straws" by Marillion last
night. I took him up on the dare. I've never even heard Marillion. So my
dilemma is
a) What album do I need to get?
b) Is this a difficult song to learn for bass?
Any help would be appreciated.
Nicholas Giannotti
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."
P.S. My web page is updated: check it out. http://www.gis.net/~nickg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Smith <ktulu@arches.uga.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Birch Hill
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.980505095641.81734A-100000@archa11.cc.uga.edu>
> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:14:41 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
> To: Dream Theater Mailing list <ytsejam@ax.com>
> Subject: Birch Hill
> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980504191031.23180A-100000@shell.monmouth.com>
>
>
> OK, since I can't seem to find anybody who is willing to drive my ass to
> birch hill on 5/7, let me throw it out to you.
Nah, you can keep your ass, dude. Thanks for the offer, though. I guess.
:)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Album Currently Playing: Metallica--...And Justice For All
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Smith "When Dream and Day Unite, Images and Words
ktulu@arches.uga.edu Awake A Change of Seasons Falling Into
Infinity."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3840
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