YTSEJAM digest 3862

From: ytsejam@ax.com
Date: Fri May 08 1998 - 13:01:40 EDT

  • Next message: ytsejam@ax.com: "YTSEJAM digest 3865"

                                YTSEJAM Digest 3862

    Today's Topics:

      1) attention all DT fans in GA
     by Matthew Smith <ktulu@arches.uga.edu>
      2) Is Dream Theater selling out?
     by ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones)
      3) re: blah bleah
     by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
      4) Sorry NDTC...Journey News
     by Carol Dellinger <cdellinger@legato.com>
      5) Re: But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the il
     by "Longshot" <longshot@pressroom.com>
      6) Re: Today's bizarre DT sighting
     by "Todd O. Klindt" <pendragn@netins.net>
      7) In defence of elitism
     by "Agar, Jonathan (CAP, EURO)" <Jonathan.Agar@gecapital.com>
      8) 1st HoB show - time change
     by "Paul T. Fini" <fini@engineering.ucsb.edu>
      9) Re: irving
     by Al Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
     10) RE: Seroussi
     by Carol Dellinger <cdellinger@legato.com>

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:08:40 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Matthew Smith <ktulu@arches.uga.edu>
    To: Ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: attention all DT fans in GA
    Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.980507222443.59084A-100000@archa9.cc.uga.edu>

    Hey all--
    A friend of mine managed to get 2-3 hours of airtime for himself Friday
    night, 5/8, around midnight on The University of Georgia's
    usually-nothing-but-crap radio station, 90.5 FM. Here's the (probably)
    final playlist, consisting of our combined choices (prog/power metal show
    by the way):

    1) Pull Me Under--Dream Theater
    2) Push--Helloween
    3) Chance--Savatage
    4) Revolution Calling (Live)--Queensryche
    5) A Pleasant Shade of Gray Part VI--Fates Warning
    6) The Hands of Time--Stratovarius
    7) Rebellion In Dreamland--Gamma Ray
    8) Of Sins and Shadows--Symphony X
    9) Crystalline Dream--Shadow Gallery
    10) Aces High--Iron Maiden
    11) Nothing to Say--Angra
    12) The Truth Ain't Kind--Superior
    13) Guardian--Fates Warning
    14) A Tale That Wasn't Right--Helloween
    15) Voices--Dream Theater
    16) Blackjack Guillotine--Savatage
    17) Fade 2 Grey--Enchant
    18) Beyond the Black Hole--Gamma Ray
    19) Out of the Ashes--Symphony X
    20) Legions--Stratovarius

    If he gets the 3rd hour:

    21) Paradigm Shift--Liquid Tension Experiment
    22) When Two Worlds Collide--Iron Maiden
    23) Anymore--Savatage
    24) Neue Regel--Queensryche
    25) Time--Angra
    26) Escape From Reality--Superior

    ..and more if possible. So, if you're in the area, listen. 90.5 FM, midnight.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Album Currently Playing: Symphony X--The Divine Wings of Tragedy
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Matt Smith "When Dream and Day Unite, Images and Words
    ktulu@arches.uga.edu Awake A Change of Seasons Falling Into
                                    Infinity."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:59:46 -0400
    From: ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones)
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Is Dream Theater selling out?
    Message-ID: <199805081559.LAA10613@psf220.pclprod.meaddata.com>

    Interesting conversation. I agree with MP. I think that DT is doing the
    right thing. I don't want DT to "sell out" and I don't think they are.
    FII is more commercial than their previous works, but if DT was solely
    interested in revenue, then all of the songs on FII would be under 6
    minutes, without time signature changes and have an alternative sound.

    My favorite DT album is I&W, which is definitely not a sell-out album,
    but there is sometimes a conflict of interest between music as an
    artform and music as a source of income.

    It sounds like DT is trying to strike a reasonable balance. To totally neglect
    the business side of the artform (as much as I'd like musicians to be
    able to do in a perfect world) would most likely be death to DT's
    career.

    Greg

            ------------------------------
            
            Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:14:27 +0200
            To: ytsejam@ax.com
            Subject: But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusi=
            on of integrity...
            Message-ID: <35531342.B61792D6@algonet.se>
            
            
            Hello everyone,
            
            I'm forwarding here a short email conversation I have had with Mike
            Portnoy around two weeks ago. You be the judge: is DT losing its
            musical integrity in search for money? Am I an asshole since I didn't
            grovel before mike and because I don't worship the ground he walks
            upon?

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 00:20:30
    From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: re: blah bleah
    Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.19980508002030.2eff02ce@pop.ici.net>

    >> > > > The more $ we make (which isn't much mind you...), the more
    freedom we'll have
    >> > > > to continue to create more music...
    >> > >
    >> > > The catchier & more mainstream music you make -> more $ -> more freedom
    >> > > to create catchy mainstream music (metallica comes to mind...)

    Which makes the presumption that *any* band that tries to make a living
    making music has sold out their artistic integrity completely. If if was a
    person who was trying to balance my musical integrity but still attain some
    financial success, and you said the above to *me*, I'd be mighty offended.

    >> > > And make your hands dirty with some real work would be so bad? Must you
    >> > > live off your art?

    And what kind of an answer did you really expect to this? May I ask you
    what you do for a living? Wouldn't *you* like to make more money doing it?
    Would you be willing to do something moderately distasteful in order to
    make more money doing it? Or would you rather take a second job flipping
    burgers to make more money? Personally, I'd take the first option. If *you*
    would do something else, that's fine. I just think it's presumtuous of you
    to think that your solution is any better than the band's, particularly
    since, as an outsider, you are more than likely not aware of all the
    variables involved.

    _____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________________
    E-mail: (psull)-(at)-(ici)-(dot)-(net)
    IRC: DDictator
    WWW: http://www.just-like.nu/
    ______________________________________________________________

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:18:10 -0700
    From: Carol Dellinger <cdellinger@legato.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Sorry NDTC...Journey News
    Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980508091810.00a83c50@mail.legato.com>

    My boss just sent me this and I thought I might pass it along as there may
    be some Journey Fans on the List.
    It will be interesting to hear Deen play with Neal and Jonathon again, but
    I will mourn the loss of Steve Smith as Journey's man behind the skins.
    Steve Smith is one amazing drummer and if anybody out there gets the chance
    to see him play a clinic...go see him play! He may be quiet and
    unassuming, but get him behind the kit and he will proceed to blow your mind!

    >
    >>Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:26:30 -0400 (EDT)
    >>To: journey@listserv.music.sony.com
    >>From: Columbia.Records@columbiarecords.com
    >>Subject: Journey News
    >>Sender: owner-journey@listserv.music.sony.com
    >>Reply-To: journey@listserv.music.sony.com
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>Singer Steve Perry has announced that he is officially leaving
    >>Journey, under amiable terms, and will relaunch his solo career.
    >>The split comes in the wake of a January 1998 conversation between
    >>Perry and Journey keyboardist Jonathan Cain in which it was
    >>decided that, if Perry's health issues prohibited him from
    >>committing to a tour at that time, Cain and original Journey
    >>guitarist Neil Schon would reform the band with a new singer.
    >>Drummer Steve Smith has also left Journey.
    >>
    >>Perry became the lead singer of Journey in 1979 and, over the
    >>past two decades, sang on the group's ten platinum-plus albums
    >>including the 1996 Trial By Fire CD. Journey, with Steve Perry
    >>as vocalist, has sold more than 45 million records worldwide.
    >>Steve Perry has recently worked with David Foster and Carole
    >>Bayer-Sager in writing and recording "I Stand Alone," the
    >>principle track for the soundtrack to the animated feature film
    >>Quest For Camelot.
    >>
    >>Journey is currently comprised of new lead singer Steve Augeri
    >>(formerly of Tall Stories), original guitarist Neal Schon,
    >>bassist Ross Valory, keyboardist Jonathan Cain (a 1981 addition),
    >>and new drummer Dean Castranova (formerly of Bad English, an 80's
    >>"supergroup" which also featured Schon and Cain). The new Journey
    >>lineup has already recorded "Remember Me," a track for the
    >>soundtrack to the upcoming summer blockbuster film Armageddon;
    >>"Remember Me" was written by Neal Schon and Jack Blades and was
    >>produced by Kevin Shirley (who also produced Trial By Fire).
    >>The Armageddon soundtrack will be released by Columbia Records
    >>on June 30.
    >>
    >>Plans for a new Journey album, as well as a summer tour of Japan
    >>and a subsequent tour of the States, are in the works.
    >>
    >>
    >>www.journeycontinues.com

    back to the Shadows I go....

    Coldfire
    GalleryMistress@dreamt.org

    Gallery of Shadows the Official Shadow Gallery Mailing List
    http://www.dreamt.org/galleryofshadows

    "Fly where your dreams go....." Crystalline Dreams - Shadow Gallery

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:06:56 +0000
    From: "Longshot" <longshot@pressroom.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the il
    Message-ID: <199805081622.JAA05189@odin.ax.com>

    First off, I think it is a little rude to be posing a private
    conversation, but that is just me.

    Portnoy does have a point, that the more money you have, the more
    freedom you have. That is true in any occupation. Mike said that he
    would LOVE to release his recordings, but he doesn't have the freedom
    to do that now. Record companies have a good amount of control over
    their artists, taking the lion's share of the profits.

    > The catchier & more mainstream music you make -> more $ -> more
    > freedom to create catchy mainstream music (metallica comes to
    > mind...)

    Bad example. Metallica is doing what they want to do now because
    they have the money and the freedom to do it. It just happens that
    the hard-core fans despise it. The argument of "Selling Out" doesn't
    wash because if they really wanted to do that, they would have come
    out with TBA II.

    Ideally, I think they would like to have a career like Rush, where
    they strike a good balance between radio-friendly songs that will
    sell albums and quality songs that will please the hard-core fans.

    > And make your hands dirty with some real work would be so bad?
    > Must you live off your art?
    >
    > Take Dan Swan=F6 for example. He works in his own study as a sound
    > engineer and... guess what? He put out many CDs with various
    > forms of music. Many of them are readily available to the
    > general public. To name a few bands he was/is part of: Edge of
    > Sanity (7 CDs), Pan-Thy-Monium (4 CDs), Nightingale
    > (2CDs)...yep, the music totally stops when you have other forms
    > of income and a family to support.

    First off I have to ask: Who? Never heard of him. Also, being a
    sound engineer is a little different than working as a corporate
    slave. He is still in the music industry. He is still around other
    artists. It is much easier to create music under that situation than
    being a computer programmer, for example.

    Next, you don't want DT to go down that path. They will be too busy
    with their mundane jobs, some will go to other bands and DT will be
    no more. None of us want that.

    And imagine, this argument started because you would much rather see
    a full show in a club than them opening for other bands with a
    shorter set list. Personally, if I were a member of DT, I would love
    the chance to play with some of my idols in front of a much larger
    crowd than I have ever played before. Can you understand that?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jason Birzer There is a theory which states that if anyone
    "The Longshot" discovers what the Universe is for and why it
                            is here, it will instantly disappear and be
    Longshot@Pressroom.com replaced by something even more bizarre and
                            inexplicable. There is another theory which
                            states that this has already happened -Douglas A=
    dams
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:20:52 -0500
    From: "Todd O. Klindt" <pendragn@netins.net>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: Today's bizarre DT sighting
    Message-ID: <355330E4.75CF@netins.net>

    I took a look at this page. If you download the image, its name is
    dthrt.jpg, as in Dream Theater Heart.jpg.

    tk

    > Okay, so I'm trying to catch up on my reading, so I'm thumbing through
    > The March 1998 issue of PC Computing magazine. I've reached an article
    > about internet hotspots, and right there on Page 301, I see a graphic
    > that is unmistakably the burning heart from the inside cover of Images
    > and Words. So, naturally, I surf over there. The page itself is
    > innocuous, it's called "The Pessimist's Guide To Love", but it does in

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:53:27 +0100
    From: "Agar, Jonathan (CAP, EURO)" <Jonathan.Agar@gecapital.com>
    To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: In defence of elitism
    Message-ID: <83E9BD6E053FD111B35A0000F6093E27433989@LON01XBCAPGE>

    Well, surf's up. Time to wade in against Chris Ptacek vs Kevin.

            
    > The only thing I called you is "elitist" on the grounds of the
    > statements you made. That's not an attack. That's a description
    of a
    > problem I have with your reasoning.

            So why is elitism a reasoning problem? It just means that people
    have been 'chosen' (in most cases by themselves). Nothing problematical
    about that.

    > Agreed. But at some level ALL music and ALL art is entertainment.
    > Entertainment is like a blanket term to encompass many seperate
    > things.

            OK to an extent. But music, or art anyway, can do more than
    entertain. Doesn't have to. Rappers can carry on being entertained if
    that's what they want. But there can be more to art than just
    entertainment. And I don't think rap and such has it. Sometimes people
    even take the entertainment OUT of art, like that piece they auctioned off
    which was a phial containing rolled instructions for creating an art work.

    > > music, to paint, to write, or to speak. There is a serious
    problem
    > > with today's society not being able to just say what is good and
    > > what sucks.

    >This is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen evidence of this
    >problem. In fact, I don't watch MTV, but I have certainly caught a
    >glimpse or two of a show called 12 angry viewers, in which this is
    >ALL they do. The funny thing is, I think THIS is a problem. I
    think
    >it's a problem for someone to go off as though they are more
    >justified for liking their music than someone else is for liking
    his
    >or her music. These standards do not, should not, and must not hold

    >true for all people, other wise there would be no variety or growth

    >in music.

            Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but this looks like cultural
    relativism to me. Just because we think some people have crap critical
    faculties doesn't mean that no one has any critical faculties. But
    'elitists' don't want to make people listen to or like 'better' music. They
    just want people to recognise that there's more to prog than there is to
    rap, for instance. You can have a lot of variety and growth in a
    fungus-infested petri dish.

    > > And when you do, you're viewed as a close-minded elitist.

    > You're viewed as an elitist when you place your standards above
    > those of others. You may counter by saying that "I never said
    that
    > my standards are above anyone else's!" but in fact, when you put
    down
    > rap as a whole unit, and put down Prodigy even though they satisfy

    > ALL of the criterion you issued as the definition of "music" you
    are
    > doing just that.

            I'd have no self-respect if I didn't place my standards above those
    of certain others I could think of.

    > > personally think that a close minded person is a person who
    refuses
    > > to take the effort out to look for quality. The "Anything is
    Art"
    > > mentality is what continues to tear down our culture.

    > In what sense? And wouldn't someone who puts forth an effort to
    > look for quality, have to put in time to look into things that he
    > might normally pass up, such as ... maybe... the whole genre of
    Rap?
    > You're not putting any effort into that... you're just marking all
    of
    > rap as "not music" and moving along. Now by your own definition,
    > you're not only elitist, but also closed minded. Keep in mind
    that I
    > am not attacking you... I'm just following through on the logical
    > conclusions that your arguments pose. If you get hurt, it's your
    > fault for tossing thumbtacks out in front of your path. I have
    not
    > thrown a single insult at you.

            Ok, I might be guilty here too, but let me say what leads me to my
    conclusion in, say, art. I love Renaissance and turn-of-the-century art. I
    read E.H. Gombrich's 'The Story of Art', supposedly one of the best
    introductions, and I found new things to see in primitive art, but a lot of
    modern and abstract art still left me cold. Asking questions isn't art; it
    doesn't need to be artistic. Social comment isn't art; the artistic content
    is redundant or independent. And abstract art? If a work depends on my
    reaction more than on the work itself, then I don't have respect for the
    artist.
            I think rap is similar. If you want poetry, get poetry. If you
    want drum'n'bass, go to a rave. But don't pretend the rap medium is more
    than redundant and superfluous.

    > > Where is the melody in Prodigy and Coolio??? Can you take their
    > > music and play it on a saxophone for instance??? [...] Where is
    the harmonic complexity of it??

    > I didn't see anything in your definition about things having to be
    > harmonically complex. The Beatles lack harmonic complexity. Are
    > they music?

            The Beatles do have some complexity, mostly added by George Martin,
    to whom they owe most of the respect they get.

    > Art will ALWAYS be and always has been different things to
    different
    > people. That has no negative societal implications as you insist.

    > The negativity is only present when one person insists that his
    > opinion is not just his opinion, but is the "right standard" by
    which
    > to judge art.

            This is tantamount to saying that the Western canon is of no more
    objective value than a baby playing on a toy trumpet if ever someone says he
    prefers little Stevie to John Milton. I think we can do better than that.
    If you haven't got the vocabulary, if you can't use what's gone before you
    to stand on, you can't move mountains.

    > It does not follow that because one does not insist that his
    > opinion of what is "good music' must hold true for everyone, that
    he
    > doesn't have standards. And "better aspects of music" is yet
    ANOTHER
    > portion of your problem. To be "better" there must be an
    objective
    > standard to music. For such a standard to be dictated by YOUR
    > opinions and not fall in line with everyone else's understandings
    > further establishes you as an elitist. Just think about it.

            Elitists are good. There can't be objective standards in music in
    terms of coolness or jiveability. But just as wave theory says what tone
    resolutions can and can't work, it should be possible to say that x is more
    harmonically complex than y, or that a has themes with counterpoint while b
    is a one-line melody. And that this piece is more profound than that piece.

    > > But I'm not a believer in cultural
    > > relativism, nor am I a believer in musical relativism.

    > [...] A significant majority, consisting of all ranges
    > of intellects and educational backgrounds, within that age group,
    > dislike Dream Theater. They can offer as many reasons why they find
    > DT distasteful as we can offer for liking them. Would their majority
    > not somehow represent a hierarchy, and if their decision as a group
    > has some non-relativistic affect, would that not mean that we are
    > wrong for liking DT?

    Numbers have nothing to do with it. We're elitists :-)

    > I don't see how anyone can tell anyone else that his or her tastes
    > in art are wrong, poor, unfounded, uninformed, or anything else. It
    > just doesn't make sense. Many rap fans hate metal as much as many of
    > us like it. We won't allow that to establish that they're right and
    > we're wrong, even if they vastly outnumber us (and these days, they
    > probably do!) How could we possibly justify that we're right, and
    > THEY'RE wrong?

    Not that they're wrong to like it, only that their music is less complex and
    less profound than ours.

    > My understanding of art is that it's expression for the artist, and
    > entertainment for those who enjoy the experience of the art. If I
    > express "anger" to 3 people by beating all the strings on my guitar
    > in some rhythmic or melodic way, and those three people are
    > entertained, then I have succeeded. I could not be any more
    > successful if that guitar performance involved the changes from
    > "Confirmation" or the speed and dexterity of MICHAEL.ANGELO. with the
    > feeling of Jason Becker. It wouldn't be any more meaningful as music
    > or as art. If the expression came through, and the entertainment was
    > present, there's nothing else to achieve in that moment.

    I can't agree, sorry. Art conveys insight, art evokes by reference to
    itself and the cultural heritage it springs from. The theatre of the absurd
    didn't entertain people, or certainly not at first. But it did give people
    insights. Entertainment wasn't the issue. People who saw Waiting for Godot
    in the 50s may have been more entertained by the Benny Hill show, but Benny
    Hill is less meaningful art than Samuel Beckett.

            Whew. I think I'll stick to smart-ass comments in future.

            (All meant as an impartial contribution, no flaming intended)

            Jonathan

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:29:03 -0700
    From: "Paul T. Fini" <fini@engineering.ucsb.edu>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: 1st HoB show - time change
    Message-ID: <v03102806b178e2d0455d@[128.111.29.61]>

    Hey all - I just got notice from Ticketbastard yesterday that the time
    for the Sunday (17th) show in HoB has been changed to 9:00pm. That either
    means that DT will have no opening band, or it's going to be a late drive
    back to Santa Barbara after the show! :)

    p.

    -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --..
    Paul T. Fini U.C. Santa Barbara
    fini@engineering.ucsb.edu Materials Dept.
    voice (805)893-8869, fax (805)893-8971 MOCVD group
    -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --.. -.-- -.-- --..

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:42:05 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Al Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
    To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Re: irving
    Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980508123811.25151A-100000@njmsa.UMDNJ.EDU>

    On Thu, 7 May 1998 RASI2290@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU wrote:

    >
    > Date sent: 8-MAY-1998 00:29:10
    >
    > I need to know. Can someone describe irving plaza in comparison to the
    > vanderbilt in plainview and toad's place in new haven? I really really
    > really liked the vanderbilt because of the nice big stage. which is Irving
    > Plaza closer to? and do they have security perched right on the stage like
    > they did in new haven? stuff like that. you can private e-mail me, or
    > not. It's relevant to the jam anyway.
    >

            I can't compare it to the others, since i haven't been to the
            but Irving Plaza has a decently big stage, definitely better
            than the one at Birch Hill in all aspects, but not as good as
            the Manhattan Center (Hammerstein Ballroom) stage.

            The stage is quite big, big enough to comfortably fit everyone,
            as well as deep. The stage is about 5 or more feet above the
            audience floor, and there should be no trouble seeing the band
            from a majority of the floor, unless that is, a 7 foot dude
            with big hair stands in front of you, which basically happens
            to me every single friggin' time I go to a show. Plus, I'm
            thinkintg that although it's sold out, it won't be *that* packed,
            since I've never been absolutely "sardine"d at Irving Plaza for
            any of their sold-out shows. Unlike Birch Hill, but that's a
            different story.

                                                            -Al

    =====================================================================
      b l i n d l a b o r s t h e b l i n d a n d I a m
         u n w i l l i n g t o u n c o v e r m y e y e s
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    balkiewi@njmsa.umdnj.edu OR sigma982@yahoo.com OR theprof@bigfoot.com
    HOMEPAGE:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/9280/index.html
      

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:42:53 -0700
    From: Carol Dellinger <cdellinger@legato.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: RE: Seroussi
    Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980508094253.00a84100@mail.legato.com>

    George Nowick reminded us:

    <snip>
    Man, your whole response leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Ugh. Someone
    have a bottle of Listerine? I can't believe some of the smack that you
    said to Mike. Someone outta wash your mouth out with soap.

    Now that's discussion. (:

    /me stands up and applauds George and the rest of the Jammers who have
    replied!

    Can I get an AMEN from the pews! AMEN!

    George, you so eloquently reminded us of something we tend to forget
    sometimes...the world does not revolve around us. Thanks!
    Remember...if you have manners and respect you have everything!

    Coldfire
    GalleryMistress@dreamt.org

    Gallery of Shadows the Official Shadow Gallery Mailing List
    http://www.dreamt.org/galleryofshadows

    "Fly where your dreams go....." Crystalline Dreams - Shadow Gallery

    ------------------------------

    End of YTSEJAM Digest 3862
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