YTSEJAM Digest 4358

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Date: Tue Oct 20 1998 - 22:37:27 EDT

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YTSEJAM Digest 4358

Today's Topics:

  1) Re: 5/12 Is Easy As Pie
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
  2) Re: NO SUCH THING!!! Sheesh!
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
  3) Finally reason...
by "Max Amundo" <maxamundo@hotmail.com>
  4) My first and last word on 5/12 & the likes
by "O" <red_barchetta@mailcity.com>
  5) How to grill a musician
by AL <al@isd.net>
  6) Re: Tuplets and Time counting
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
  7) Re: My first and last word on 5/12 & the likes
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
  8) DT chat
by CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk>
  9) FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ... and ice cream
by "Max Amundo" <maxamundo@hotmail.com>
10) In Defence of 'Destiny'
by GaZ <icarus@sydney.net>
11) Re: Supergroups & MP
by almar@freemail.nl
12) New Strato Lbum
by "(just) Asmodel" <asmodel@pils.kvarteret.uib.no>
13) A L L MP3 are now A V A I L A B L E
by MASONI Luca <Luca.Masoni@omnitel.it>
14) Re: Mike Portnoys hair
by "Dream Theater" <dtdrummin@hotmail.com>
15) Re: Mike Portnoys hair
by Tom Cox <lexine@rollanet.org>
16) A new subscriber....
by "Dennis Leeflang" <dl@xs4all.nl>

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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:37:27 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: 5/12 Is Easy As Pie
Message-ID: <362d8f363491001@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>

Just one really quick note on this. Unless I *really* don't know anything about
time signatures, which I don't, I think the people claiming that a twelfth note
is a dotted eighth are retarded. The duration of a note is multiplied by 1.5
when it is dotted, making it *longer*. A twelfth note would obviously be of
*shorter* duration than eighth note, because there are more of them packed into
the same space. A dotted eighth note would be an eighth plus a sixteenth which
equals 3/16 which equals a .1875th note if you really wanna be an idiot.

In short, a dotted eighth is just a dotted eighth, as I think somebody
mentioned.

And a twelfth note is actually a dotted eighteenth note. Seriously. Work the
math.

We could come up with a really fun notation system here. :D

-Brian

________________________________________________________________________________
          "Each time I write lines for it, someone improvises it...
             life is so much cleaner on the page." - Kevin Moore
________________________________________________________________________________
               Coleridge on IRC Web: http://umn.edu/~hayd0029
       The NEW Home of Ytseradio: http://www.dreamt.org/ytseradio

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:42:43 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: NO SUCH THING!!! Sheesh!
Message-ID: <362d9073350a001@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>

Responding to the message of <19981021071842.6021.qmail@hotmail.com>
from ytsejam@ax.com:

> It's not a matter of education or closed-mindedness.

You're a putz. That's exactly what it's about.

> There simply ARE no
> other notes. It HAS to be a power of 2. Maybe you don't like it, but
> that's just the way it is.

It doesn't HAVE to be a power of two, that's just prevailing tradition. Hate to
break it to you, but musical notation is nothing more than an arbitrarily
convenient system for keeping a record of a piece of music. There is no single
magical transcendental half NOTE that all other wonderful and mystical notes
spring from. One arbitrary system is just as good as another as long as people
can figure out how to play it. And if even jammers can figure out how a twelfth
note would sound, *real* musicians shouldn't have any problem. ;D Hell, now I'm
tempted to write a song and notate it in 23.4/36 just to piss people off.

-Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:55:58 PDT
From: "Max Amundo" <maxamundo@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Finally reason...
Message-ID: <19981021075559.8226.qmail@hotmail.com>

Christopher Ptacek wrote...

<SNIP>

>>>So why, seeing as all time sigs. had been dealt with in some way
before ANY
of us were born, are there no 7th notes? Because this is taken care of
with
the current system, using polyrhythms and/or tuplets (note groupings).
When
Petrucci plays 5 note groups at the end of Erotomania, those are not 5th
notes... they're quintuplets. The notes being played do not necessarily
dictate the time sig in the way that many of you are presenting. If so,
then a piece in cut time with all 16th notes would be 8/16 instead
of2/4,
or a piece with all eighths in 5/4 would have to be 10/8.<<<

<SNIP>

Exactly.

Anyone who still thinks there are 12th notes ehould re-read his entire
post on #4356. This pretty well explains it.

Good job!

-maX

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:59:12 -0700
From: "O" <red_barchetta@mailcity.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: My first and last word on 5/12 & the likes
Message-ID: <HPKFHNOFPLNNBAAA@mailcity.com>

I really don't want to mess up your nice and important discussion regarding someone having seen a 5/12 signature somewhere, but I got to make my point as well (just to keep away from total lurkin'...).

It's really kind of impressive to see all these professional musicians and pro-wannabees or just simple nobodies, all claiming that they're the ones to say how to play 5/12. You count like this, rewrite it like that, it exists, it doesn't, it works, it doesn't. It was pretty fun for a while, but steadily grew awfully tiresome. Now I have to say I'm fed up.

My point is, as someone else stated (forgot the person's name), that if you understand that time signature, and your sheet is for your own personal use - that's OK. You don't have to be accurate in everything you do - unless you're going to explain it for someone else. For if you can't explain yourself in a way that anyone understands, no one will take you seriously. Or perhaps they'll think you're a genius. It varies.

When it comes to notation... ever thought of the eighth shuffle-thingy (dunno what's to call it)? You write groups with two eighth notes play it like a (quarter + eighth) triplet. If you hand a sheet to an old blues guitarist with groups of two eighth notes, I'm sure he'll play 'em shuffled if he thinks it's blues - even if you haven't told him to. Give 'em to a pop musician and he'll play straight eighth notes.

My point - it really doesn't matter that much how you write music. Where it lies is HOW YOU READ IT. If you can think 5/12 - OK, play it. If you know what I mean when i write a Dm8 chord (once I thought it was for real), that's all right. But for those who don't, give an explanation. And I guess that's what you've been trying to do here, and that's good. But for heaven's sake, let it go!

The man that wrote 5/12 in a musical score made a mistake - 'cause no one is clear with what it actually means. And from what I have seen, it seems like no one is clear how to interprete 5/12.

Now, I hope y'all understood me and take me seriously.
And I'm no genius.

Get your FREE E-mail at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:07:38 -0500
From: AL <al@isd.net>
To: retaehT maerD <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: How to grill a musician
Message-ID: <362D964A.D4D5376@isd.net>

With all the KevMo vs DerSher wars that have gone on, I'm really surprised
that NO one has mentioned the keyboardists that Fates Warning hired for the
live recorded performances of APSoG. Ed Roth on the Video, and Jason
Keazer on Still Life. Why are these guys void of the "Kevin is better"
syndrome? I think they both did good job. As does Derek.
Could someone explain to me (in a adult manner) why these guys didn't get
grilled on the jam? Or were they Kevin's equal?
------------------------------------------------------------------
And now for some humor...

"No animal should ever jump up on the dining room furniture unless
absolutely certain that he can hold his own in the conversation." - Fran Lebowitz

No problem.... if you're at a Korn concert! --AL

-- AL... The Ytse-Progtologist

Switchcraft Communications & Microsystems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "There may be some things that are better than sex, and their may be some things that are worse. But there is nothing exactly like it." --W.C. Fields

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:14:28 -0500 From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: Tuplets and Time counting Message-ID: <362d97e23892001@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>

Responding to the message of <003101bdfc8a$246dbd60$07809c83@7979811wheat.farm.niu.edu> from ytsejam@ax.com:

> Quarter note = 2 eighth notes > Quarter note triplets = 3 quarter notes that fit in the > space of 2 quarter notes (this becomes a polyrhythm > if the 2 quarter notes are present beneath the triplet) > You can have any number of notes as a grouplet, > 5 quarters over the space of 4, etc...

A thought. It seems to me that free from the trapping of tradition, a measure of four quarter note triplets could just as economically be referred to as a measure of twelfth notes.

To call it "quarter note triplets" is actually somewhat inaccurate within the scheme; since you're putting three quarter notes in a duration where there "should" be two, it's obviously not technically a quarter note anymore, it's a "sixth note." Or a "dotted ninth note." Now, those of you who are paying attention are actually starting to see a pattern in my inane ramblings on dottings of notes that "dont' exist" to begin with. As I noted in a previous post, working out fraction name for a dotted note in a system based on exponents of 2 is goofy. A dotted eigth is a one-thousand-eight-hundred-seventy-five/ten-thousandths note. By contrast, a system based on multiples of three eliminates this need for "dotting" and the accompanying mouthfuls of note names. Any "dotted" note in this system is another simple note. This also eliminates the need for the concept of "triplets," since we are now based on threes and don't need to come up with a way of forcing something into a space in which it doesn't fit and giving it a technically inaccurate name to boot, just to give it a note name that fits with the rest of the system.

In an added twist, many of you would absolutely *love* this three system, because it would make counting in 4/4 a real chore for all those non-prog simpletons in the world. Serves them right for not listening to music worthy of your taste!

Base Three advocates of the world UNITE!

-Brian

PS: If you "Sarcasm-O-Meter"(tm) has not spun past the red and exploded yet, you better fucking get a new one, jack.

________________________________________________________________________________ "Each time I write lines for it, someone improvises it... life is so much cleaner on the page." - Kevin Moore ________________________________________________________________________________ Coleridge on IRC Web: http://umn.edu/~hayd0029 The NEW Home of Ytseradio: http://www.dreamt.org/ytseradio

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:21:38 -0500 From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: My first and last word on 5/12 & the likes Message-ID: <362d99923941001@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>

Responding to the message of <HPKFHNOFPLNNBAAA@mailcity.com> from ytsejam@ax.com:

>If you hand a sheet to an old blues guitarist with groups of two eighth notes, >I'm sure he'll play 'em shuffled if he thinks it's blues - even if you haven't >told him to. Give 'em to a pop musician and he'll play straight eighth notes.

> The man that wrote 5/12 in a musical score made a mistake - 'cause no one is > clear with what it actually means. And from what I have seen, it seems like > no one is clear how to interprete 5/12.

I find these two paragraphs rather ironic. You say that 5/12 is wrong because nobody knows how to interpret it...but you describe how eighth notes can be interpretedly differently depending on the person. It seemed that the interpretations of twelfth notes were (other than mine) quite lucid and reasonable. It's obvious that you don't really have a problem with differing interpretations. 5/12 just doesn't seem right to you because it doesn't fit with the standard mold.

-Brian

________________________________________________________________________________ "Each time I write lines for it, someone improvises it... life is so much cleaner on the page." - Kevin Moore ________________________________________________________________________________ Coleridge on IRC Web: http://umn.edu/~hayd0029 The NEW Home of Ytseradio: http://www.dreamt.org/ytseradio

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:32:43 +0100 From: CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: DT chat Message-ID: <362DAA3B.687526B3@mol.com.mk>

Does anyone know about the chat with DT members on 29-th??? Something more???

And stop with that 12-th note for God's sake!!!!!! -- Later, CyberDuke

Home Page http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Gym/3466/ E-mail duskob@mol.com.mk ICQ# 17392722

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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:36:52 PDT From: "Max Amundo" <maxamundo@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ... and ice cream Message-ID: <19981021083654.8350.qmail@hotmail.com>

Kyle McCabe said:

>>>Now look here: you break a quarter note into three parts and you get EIGHTH NOTE TRIPLETS, not 12th notes. And if you repeat a theme every five 8th notes, you lose the triplet feel and make them strait 8ths...then you are in 5/8 time...which means five eighth notes in the bar, and one eighth note gets the beat. As I said before, you can count it any way you want, but if you wanna write it down, it's only gonna work a certain way. And as for breaking a quarter note into five pieces, that would be 16th note quintuplets.<<<

SNIP

Any questions?

I'm really getting tired of this subject, but I won't have lost jammers thinking there are 12th notes, or 7th notes, or 365th notes...

And it is NNOOTT a matter of perception. It's a matter of NOTATION, of wruting.

And to answer the question, trumpets playing ABCDE ABCDE ABCDE... with a cymbal crash on the 12th beat does NNOOTT make the ABCDE from the trumpets 12th notes!!!

It's really 5/8 or whatever (could be 5/4, 5/16), with a cymbal crash on beat 2 of the 3rd measure, beat 4 of the 5th measure, and so-on. Sorry you don't like it, but that's just the way it is WRITTEN.

If you wanted the cymbal crash to indicate each measure, you would have 12/8, or 12/16, etc. The trumpets are not playing 12th notes, though. That's the facts of music writing...

If it were up to your ears, then 5/12 would be OK. But it's WRITING. Whatever is accented, swung, dotted, tied, legatoed, crescendoed, or whatever, they're still powers of 2.

:^[]

-maX =^..^= (kitty, haven't used it in a while)

______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 01:47:09 +1000 From: GaZ <icarus@sydney.net> To: "ytsejam@ax.com" <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: In Defence of 'Destiny' Message-ID: <3614F57D.707BD148@sydney.net>

"Ville Rassi" told us:

> I don=B4t like this album very much.There are only two songs that come > close to the usual Strato-quality I have come to expect from them(S.O.S > and Cold Winter Nights).Why, you ask?Simply because the melodies(The > melody that starts the song Destiny is so lame that you don=B4t know > whether to laugh or cry)aren=B4t very good and because this album seems= to > lack it=B4s own style.It=B4s only Visions part two.Except it=B4s not ne= arly as > good as Visions.

For me 'Destiny' is the first time a Stratovarius album has delivered with every song. As for the song 'Destiny' itself, it's an absolute classic, the intro sung by the choir boy is very beautiful, the song is already concidered one of the best Stratovarius songs ever by quite a few hard core fans.... The album itself is totally different from Visions, lots of orchestral parts, choirs more keyboards from Jens and Tolkki guitar playing has reached a new level too. It's still the same old Stratovarius we love, but with a few new twists... What more do you want, a didgipak filled with the band members blood :P ?

I suggest you give your lugs holes a thorough clean out and reserve your judgement :) Just cos YOU don't like it, dosen't mean that it isn't any good or vice versa..... Besides SOS is a throwaway pop song :)

GaZ

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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:04:44 GMT From: almar@freemail.nl To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: Supergroups & MP Message-ID: <199810211104.LAA17815@freesrv2a3.2>

> > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:49:45 EDT > From: Portnoy420@aol.com > To: ytsejam@axnet.net > Cc: skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org > Subject: Supergroups & MP > Message-ID: <9e2e6ac3.362d4bc9@aol.com> > > > I thought the fans enjoyed and appreciated all of the time I put in for them!! > : ) >

Well, at least I do!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:16:02 +0200 (CEST) From: "(just) Asmodel" <asmodel@pils.kvarteret.uib.no> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: New Strato Lbum Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981021131256.14471A-100000@pils.kvarteret.uib.no>

>I dont like this album very much.There are only two songs that come >close to the usual Strato-quality I have come to expect from them(S.O.S >and Cold Winter Nights).Why, you ask?Simply because the melodies(The >melody that starts the song Destiny is so lame that you dont know >whether to laugh or cry)arent very good and because this album seems to >lack its own style.Its only Visions part two.Except its not nearly as >good as Visions.

I havent checked "Destiny" yet,I read some reviews and most of them were like "OK this is a good Strato album,must buy for any fan of the band but thats about it,next release"..I really hope its better than Visions. Coz I bought Visions at the day of its release and I expected much more, the production was awesome but the songs really weak..compared to "Episode" (which is my fav Strato album by far)..take care ppl asmodel

____________________________ Yes,I am falling..how much longer till I hit the ground? I can't tell you why I'm breaking down. I can't sleep so I take a breath and hide behind my bravest mask, I admit I've lost control..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:40:58 +0200 From: MASONI Luca <Luca.Masoni@omnitel.it> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: A L L MP3 are now A V A I L A B L E Message-ID: <81FB1A684FF8D011A2A90020AFC5710DA8DA03@omin058.omnitel.it>

Hi guys. Just few words to notify that all the DT covers that we have played during one of our performance are now available on Bungle's 'DT cover page' (http://www.dtcovers.frag.hu/). I like to renew my thanks to Bungle for his courtesy and patience. He offer us a big chance to be eared. Thank you Ciao

Luca onderock@usa.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 04:42:15 PDT From: "Dream Theater" <dtdrummin@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: Mike Portnoys hair Message-ID: <19981021114216.10579.qmail@hotmail.com>

I like Mike's new look. I liked his old look too, but I've had long hair and now have short hair, so I understand, especially for a drummer, why he chose to have short hair.

>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT) >Reply-To: ytsejam@ax.com >From: "Mike & Susan Verstraete" <homewks@sound.net> >To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> >Subject: Mike Portnoys hair > > >I got Novembers issue of Modern Drummer today and after checking out the >Tama ad on page 173, I have one question, "WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MIKE >PORTNOYS HAIR!!!!!?". For those of you who don't get Modern Drummer, I can >only say 2" tall crew cut on top, very short sides and frosted. Also >Mike....lose the glasses, they're not you dude. >On a more positive note, there is a great artical on Mike and LTE (page >150). > >Mike >Homewks@sound.Net > > >

______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:53:55 -0500 From: Tom Cox <lexine@rollanet.org> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: Mike Portnoys hair Message-ID: <362DCB53.522A@rollanet.org>

Especially for a drummer?! I take it you mean the heat thing and all... I just drink more beer =)>~ heh, ya I'm a drummer, and I have long hair....

just kiddin by the way, hair length is one's own choice to make...

Dream Theater wrote: > > I like Mike's new look. I liked his old look too, but I've had long > hair and now have short hair, so I understand, especially for a drummer, > why he chose to have short hair. >

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:53:26 +0200 From: "Dennis Leeflang" <dl@xs4all.nl> To: <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: A new subscriber.... Message-ID: <001301bdfce9$7d86aec0$09876dc2@dl.xs4all.nl>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDFCFA.2D057D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello there.... My name's Dennis and I am new here..... Please correct me if I'm wrong but... It seems a lot of you guys are = really concerned with technical stuff musicalwise.... I mean, I am a = drummer myself and I like to fool around with some odd time signatures, = but, it's how it sounds that counts...... I'm sure the band themselves = don't talk about it as much as you all do... But anyway I'm new here and I might not know what I am talking = about..... So, I just like to say that this ML is the best thing on the = net so far, and a real DT fan must.....

Keep up the good work..... and.... well..... react?!?

Dennis Leeflang The Netherlands.....

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDFCFA.2D057D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello there....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My name's Dennis and I am new=20 here.....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Please correct me if I'm wrong = but... It seems a=20 lot of you guys are really concerned with technical stuff = musicalwise.... I=20 mean, I am a drummer myself and I like to fool around with some odd time =

signatures, but, it's how it sounds that counts...... I'm sure the band=20 themselves don't talk about it as much as you all do...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>But anyway I'm new here and I might = not know=20 what I am talking about..... So, I just like to say that this ML is the = best=20 thing on the net so far, and a real DT fan must.....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Keep up the good work..... = and....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>well..... react?!?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dennis Leeflang</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The = Netherlands.....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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