YTSEJAM Digest 4800
Today's Topics:
1) Re: APSOG
by Michael Kizer <mike@ivorygate.com>
2) APSOG
by Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
3) Franks APSOG comment
by "J C" <outlander28@hotmail.com>
4) Derek and the definition of prog
by "Simon Long Krogh" <finn2@get2net.dk>
5) Re: APSOG
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
6) Re: Subject: A Pleasant Shade of Giannotti
by "Martin" <mpb@netlab.sk>
7) LTE2
by "Oliver Ploier" <Oliver.Ploier@stud.uni-hannover.de>
8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4799
by "Christopher W. Ptacek" <someone@prognosis.com>
9) Abraxas - Tomorrow's World
by GREGER.RONNQVIST@INFODATA.SEMA.SE
10) Re: APSOG
by Craig Griffith <tarkus@softhome.net>
11) keyboard wizardry?
by Toneadd9@aol.com
12) My monthly meaningless rambling.
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
13) Spock's Beard in Chicago??
by "Ryan Good, Loud Rock Director" <rtgood@students.wisc.edu>
14) I need help from some Ibanez players...
by CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:25:51 -0700
From: Michael Kizer <mike@ivorygate.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: APSOG
Message-ID: <3712107F.701B5E@ivorygate.com>
Frank Benenati wrote:
>
> > What does everyone NOT like about the album exactly? Its
> > awesome.
> That one is quite simple. The album is painfully repetitive! It would do
> the album a great service to say that there are reoccurring themes, but
> that would be giving it way too much credit. APSOG, more accurately, is
Well, I don't really think that APSoG is overly redundant, I mean it is not
like a techno song or something just looped for 55 minutes... sure it has
plenty of repeating themes, but that is all part of the experiment into writing
a 55 minute long song. Plus the repeating themes are there to portray the in
and out of sleep state of the main character. This song is not supposed to be a
tour de force prog fest or anything, it is really a moody, introspective
song...
> When I bought APSOG and tried to give it every chance I could afford,
> the only conclusion that I was able to come up with was that Jim Matheos
> was trying to out-do Dream Theater in song length. Remember, Jim
> started writing APSOG (or had just completed, I dont remember that too
> accurately) around the same ACOS was being released. I'd be willing to
> bet, although they're friends, that Jim Matheos is quite envious of Mike
> Portnoy and Co.
Now, while I respect your opinion to dislike APSoG, I think you are way off
base to think that Jim was jealous of Mike P. for writing ACOS, so he decided
to write an even longer song... that's plain silly... The length of a song has
relatively nothing to do with its artistic content, neither does complexity for
that matter... There are some great 3 minute "pop" songs and there are some
great great long "prog" songs... what it all boils down to eventually is the
song writing, it is either there or it isn't (and this is purely an individual
opinion).
-- ~Michael Kizer <mike@ivorygate.com> <ICQ # 2070538> "Enter ivory gates through midnight skies..." - http://www.ivorygate.com >>> Fates Warning ~ Island In The Stream <<< >>> Dream Theater and Kevin Moore "Unofficial" Song Books <<< >>> Listen to YtseRadio online at http://www.dreamt.org/ytseradio <<<------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:57:28 -0500 From: Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: APSOG Message-ID: <2.2.32.19990412155728.006d92dc@pi-r-squared.com>
As the person who sorta started this argument in the first place it's about time I commented. As I said, I really did not like this album when I first got it and it took me a few listens to get used to it. My main problem was that I had expected it to be some long, unconventional, progfest like early DT. Once I got over what it wasn't, I started listening to it and realized what it was. No album ever has managed to provoke images like this one has (and a lot of em in grey too ;) ). Mateos has achieved a 55 minute, totally immersive musical experience. There are times when I can listen to it, and forget everything that's going on around me except the music and the thoughts inside my head. After I let the emotions of the cd sweep over me, I started listening to the music, and discovered that it was quite progressive in its own right. The difference between this and say I&W, is that it's not as in your face (which is not to say that is a bad thing) in its complexities, rather it hides them under sheets and sheets of atmosphere. Blah, I'm rambling now... I like the damn cd. There.
Palpatine Co Founder of Pi-R-Squared productions: www.pi-r-squared.com "Thank God I'm an aetheist" -Luis Bunel "What an incredible smell you've discovered" -Han Solo, Star Wars: A New Hope "Perhaps god gave the answers to those with nothing to say"- Savatage: Somewhere in time
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:51:04 EDT From: "J C" <outlander28@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Franks APSOG comment Message-ID: <19990412165106.5739.qmail@hotmail.com>
J C wrote: > >2. To the person that said APSOG is a masterpiece - you smoke pounds of weed every day. >> What does everyone NOT like about the album exactly? Its awesome.
Incorrect.....J C did not write that ...my post was a reveiw listed in this digest Since i just heard it that cannot be my comment
That one is quite simple. The album is painfully repetitive! It would do the album a great service to say that there are reoccurring themes, but that would be giving it way too much credit.
I liked half of it and I, like you found the rest to be dull and strung together
Outlander
_______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:42:15 +0200 From: "Simon Long Krogh" <finn2@get2net.dk> To: "The Ytsejam Mailinglist" <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: Derek and the definition of prog Message-ID: <000201be850d$f75ba500$51db52c3@flskesteg>
Hi! Here's a little contribution to the two above mentioned subjects:
Derek: I think that Kevin seemed more inspired by classical music than Derek (which is also the reason why i prefer Kevin). Derek is more of a rock'n'roll keyboardist - and a damn good one, too, but just not DT-material. I think that Jordan is placed somewhere in between the two former Keyboardists, which makes it exciting to see and hear, what the new lineup will bring to us trusty DT-fans.
Prog: The def. of prog, I believe, will always vary from individual to individual but my def. is this: prog is music that, either musically or lyrically (or both) describes some sort of progression or evolution. It more so describes a period of time than a moment. Progressive music can then be played as prog. rock or prog metal, but i find much classical music prog as well.
Finally, i would like to post a short request: Does anyone out there have a drawing of the majesty-symbol (the peace-sign-like-thing with a capital M on top of it in .DXF or AutoCAD or such format? please email me!
That's it, have fun and thanks for all your help on the WFS-question.
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:15:13 -0700 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: APSOG Message-ID: <199904121915.MAA03162@gms.gmsnet.com>
Before being sacrificed upon the altar..., Frank Benenati thus begged: > >That one is quite simple. The album is painfully repetitive! It would do >the album a great service to say that there are reoccurring themes, but >that would be giving it way too much credit. APSOG, more accurately, is >extremely redundant, with musical themes that don't offer any hope.
Sigh... some people just don't understand Fates... but like I've always said, Fates is not for everyone...
Sorry Mojoboyeee... you missed out on this one :)
-The Doc
-- ------ drkhoe@gmsnet.com -------------- ++++++ ---------------------- ///// http://progmetal.gmsnet.com ----------------==== Unix systems - C/C++ video game engine development =><=============== Administration ===================== Intranet/Internet Engineering =================
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:05:38 +0200 From: "Martin" <mpb@netlab.sk> To: <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: Re: Subject: A Pleasant Shade of Giannotti Message-ID: <001001be8517$773ed0e0$471ea8c3@h6d7z8>
> > Because it's boring. If they would have shortened it to about 7 >or 8 minutes and taken out all the repetitiveness, it would have been a >great song. Sadly, they did not. It's, as far as I'm concerned, one of >the worst albums ever made. But, of course, that's just my opinion. > > mike.
Yeah, album has some great parts and the rest is kinda boring.
Martin
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:53:16 +0200 From: "Oliver Ploier" <Oliver.Ploier@stud.uni-hannover.de> To: "ytsejam" <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: LTE2 Message-ID: <001001be851e$4a38c4a0$2eb14b82@ollip>
Hi there, I'm from Hannover, Germany. Yesterday I asked my local record dealer, whether he knew any release date for LTE2. He said that it is scheduled f= or May, 15th (USA!) I wonder if anyone has detailed information or who could confirm this (Steffen Barabasch vielleicht?)
CU, Oliver
---Sie haben die Position Ihres Mauszeigers ge=E4ndert. Bitte starten Sie Windows neu, damit die Ver=E4nderungen wirksam werden.---
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:03:38 -0500 From: "Christopher W. Ptacek" <someone@prognosis.com> To: <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4799 Message-ID: <001101be8527$f0e1c820$2d739c83@madstation>
> From: Syrinx <syrinx@erotomania.org> > Subject: Re: Subject: A Pleasant Shade of Giannotti
> Because it's boring. If they would have shortened it to about 7 > or 8 minutes and taken out all the repetitiveness, it would have been a > great song. Sadly, they did not. It's, as far as I'm concerned, one of > the worst albums ever made. But, of course, that's just my opinion.
And that's the thing... your tastes do not mirror the tastes of the average DT fan. Bogie and Maddy HATED the Swamp Terrorists disc that I subjected them to under your recommendation. They both really liked the majority of what I expected them to like (the discs I showed them) but not that disc. I personally dig it. I'm really getting into the techno/trance deal and seeing new unexplored ideas through the mixture of all the genre's I like. Some people have no interest in this sort of perspective though. Maddy and Bogie don't, so much, and I don't think you do either. Maybe it comes down to what you're listening for. If you want to be blown away by technicality, you're not going to find it in Fates beyond the drumming. They just don't have any other virtuoso in the band. I personally find Ray's mature (the sound he's had since Inside Out) voice to be among the most expressive in the business, and I think Matheos writes immensely deep music and lyrics. He's a very eloquent writer and very well spoken in person. You can tell he's a thinker. I find that his music fits with the ideas he's writing better than most anything else I listen to. But let's call a spade a spade here. Some people will call Debussy's "Syrinx" boring, whereas I think it's one of the most remarkable things I've ever heard. I have called Handel's "The Messiah" boring after witnessing the composition in its entirety. It comes down to your tastes and your reasons for listening. There's no way to say which person has the more developed and refined musical tastes... the same argument that would say that a person who dislikes APSoG is a more refined listener would also label that listener closed minded. I am only just now starting to dig Marillion and King Crimson. I used to despise Rush. Things change (which is why I don't advocate selling off your cds, since you don't know what you'll like a year or two down the road.) I used to like Peruvian Skies, and now I really can't listen to it anymore. (polite understatement)
> From: Frank Benenati <fmb@frontierlogic.com> > Subject: Re: APSOG
> That one is quite simple. The album is painfully repetitive! It would do > the album a great service to say that there are reoccurring themes, but > that would be giving it way too much credit. APSOG, more accurately, is > extremely redundant, with musical themes that don't offer any hope.
Hmmm... I don't know, man. I can hear very distinct parts of the piece, moving in and out... disappearing and reappearing 10 minutes later in a variation of some sort. This is, unlike most concept albums, written to be like one piece of music. I don't hear any "painful" repetition... I hear a few themes in this song, brought back in variations. It's a rather old composition technique. As an album of 12 different songs, if all had different meanings, this would be a pretty lacking album in terms of variation and scope... but it makes for a marvelous concept album, and holds together for the whole length because of how the themes and the lyrics, and the music, and the audio imagery are related. I hear it that way, at least. I assume this was Matheos' intent. You'll argue that it wasn't the intent... that Matheos is just trying to write a long song, and it's being overglorified... but I really think that's a bunch of crap. I mean no insult by that. But if you have no outside issues with Fates (meaning, if you came to this album either fresh to the world of FW or already as a fan) you wouldn't make a statement like that.
> When I bought APSOG and tried to give it every chance I could afford, > the only conclusion that I was able to come up with was that Jim Matheos > was trying to out-do Dream Theater in song length.
The end purpose of this being? Isn't IGoD already longer than ACoS (I don't recall)? As a musician, I think I am a credible source for saying that song length is not akin to penis length, even in the prog world. A song has to go where it has to go. If you sit down with the purpose of writing a "song longer than this guy's" your music will be conceptually weak, no matter how great a player you are. If you sit down with a concept for an album, as in the case of APSoG, you have a lot more to work with. Every minute of the song has a purpose. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the song started out with a little idea, or life experience, and was written up in outline form before a note was even played.
> Remember, Jim > started writing APSOG (or had just completed, I dont remember that too > accurately) around the same ACOS was being released. I'd be willing to > bet, although they're friends, that Jim Matheos is quite envious of Mike > Portnoy and Co.
Jealous of their relatively short rise to fame in the prog world? Quite possibly. I am, and I'm really not even in the business yet. DT's success is really a dream situation (even though they put in TONS and TONS of hard work, there's still a huge "right place, right time" aspect) Did that affect his songwriting? I can't see how you could say it has. Wouldn't he have made a conscious effort to out "prog" DT? Wouldn't the music have been consciously more complex insofar as technical showmanship? I've been a Fates fan for a long time. This album seems very Matheos to me. He has a somber style, that you can really hear in his First Impressions album... there's maybe one happy sounding song there. He reads a lot of poetry that I don't bother reading, knowing how much it will take to really dissect it as he does... he's not the shallow writer you make him out to be. I'm sorry, but there's just no evidence to support what you're saying. The release of ACoS is not really relevant to APSoG... not as far as I can see. What, because they're both long songs? Then are they both copies of 2112? I don't see how APSoG and ACoS are related, musically, or conceptually. I will say that I think APSoG has its flaws, but is much more well thought out, IMO than ACoS. Like what you will, but it sounds like you're stepping into this game with some negative thoughts about Fates from the get go. I may be wrong. But if that's the case, then your opinion is incommensurable to those of us who have always liked Fates.
- Chris
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:39 +0200 From: GREGER.RONNQVIST@INFODATA.SEMA.SE To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Abraxas - Tomorrow's World Message-ID: <199904122139.6XpM@semagroup.sema.se>
--- Inkommet fr=E5n INFODATA.SVA0193 +46 670 160 60 99-04-12 23.39
ABRAXAS - Tomorrow's World GERMANY Rating: * * * * =BD February 1998 LIMB MUSIC LMP 9802-002 Total time: 70:59 minutes
Abraxas is: Oliver Mindner on Guitar, Heiko Burst on Drums, Chris Klauke on Vocals, Andreas Hittinger on Keyboards, Jan M=FCller on Bass and Stephan Rohner on Guitar.
The Tracks are: 'Gates To Eden', 'Explorers', 'Tomorrow's World', 'Dreamers Island', 'Crusaders Prayer', 'Dream Dealer', 'Cry Of the Nature', 'Signs', 'Euphoria', 'Place Without Mirrors', 'The Liaison' + Bonus tracks 'Stolen Memories' (taken from "Signs" demo 1991), 'Faded Photographs' (taken from "Gates To Eden" demo 1990) and 'Into The Light' (taken from "Gates To Eden" demo 1990).
The music: Abraxas aren't just another one of the new Heavy Metal bands that's hailing from Germany nowadays, because they have been around since 1985. Like so many other German bands today, they are playing a mix between Power, Speed and Prog Metal, with catchy choruses and many changes in tempo and direction.
The musicians as well as the singer are very good. One of the guitarists seems to be influenced by Yngwie Malmsteen. They are putting together great compositions on this album. Their music has got similarities with Angra, Dream Theater, Edguy, Gamma Ray, Yngwie Malmsteen and Savatage.
My favourite tracks are the progressive "Explorers", the title track "Tomorrow's World", the catchy "Dreamer's Island", "Crusaders Prayer" and "The Liaison".
This is definitely a worthy album if you're into Power Metal, so just get yourself out and get it.
-Reviewed by Greger R=F6nnqvist-
Discography: Vampire (demotape, 4 songs, 2/88) Shattered By A Terrible Prediction (EP on vinyl, 4 songs, 4/89) Gates To Eden (demotape, 4 songs, 12/90) Signs (demotape, 5 songs, 12/91) The Liaison (CD, 11 songs, Japan 9/93) Tomorrow's World (CD, remastered version of "The Liaison", different artwork, 14 songs incl. 3 bonus tracks, Europe 10/97)
This CD is released by Limb Music Products Limb Music Products & Publishing Postfach 60 25 20 22235 Hamburg, Germany Tel: +49 - (0)40 - 53 10 900 Fax: +49 - (0)40 - 53 10 90 50 Website: http://www.world-online.de/limb-music Email: limb-music@digital-design.de
------------------------------------------------------------------
Greger Ronnqvist
Email: greger.ronnqvist@infodata.sema.se
Snail Mail: Greger Ronnqvist Risselasvagen 66 B 833 35 Stromsund Sweden
ICQ No: 17275819
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---- 99-04-12 23.39 ---- S=E4nt till --------------------------- -> ytsejam(a)ax.com
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:20:28 -0400 From: Craig Griffith <tarkus@softhome.net> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: APSOG Message-ID: <371271AB.DC6F84F9@softhome.net>
Frank Benenati wrote:
> When I bought APSOG and tried to give it every chance I could afford, > the only conclusion that I was able to come up with was that Jim Matheos > was trying to out-do Dream Theater in song length. Remember, Jim > started writing APSOG (or had just completed, I dont remember that too > accurately) around the same ACOS was being released. I'd be willing to > bet, although they're friends, that Jim Matheos is quite envious of Mike > Portnoy and Co.
I'm sorry to say it, but that is, quite possibly, the dumbest (sounding) thing I've heard on the Ytsejam since "Fuck you all, you opinionated motherfuckers." (name that quotation!) Note that this is not an attempt at flaming, but rather a counter argument. That a musician such as Jim Matheos would try to outdo another musician in something as petty as song length is completely incomprehendible to me. People, APSOG, love it or hate it vehemently, is a musical expression of feelings that Matheos has felt. He didn't write any of it to be impressive or to sell records (certainly not that) or to outdo DT. It's art, folks! Why was Close to the Edge 19 minutes long? Because Yes wanted to pull a Tarkus? No! Because it evolved that way! Regarding the musical content of the album, yes, in many places it is repetitive and at least a couple of times nothing's happening besides a sustained synth note. That's what's encoded on the CD, and that's largely what they play live. How you interpret it is your business. If you want to think it's boring because it's not this prog megafuck like I&W or metal crunchfest like old Metallica, go ahead. I, however, choose to enjoy it as an expression of ambiguity, regret, and sadness.
-- Craig Griffith: High school student, guitar player, King of Craigland http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/8509/ Music page: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Opera/2398/index.html "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" -Ian Anderson
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:21:33 EDT From: Toneadd9@aol.com To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: keyboard wizardry? Message-ID: <94a6f030.2443cbed@aol.com>
who is instructing this video, or however u phrase this? price? thru who? etc. private mail please.
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Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:11:09 -0600 From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net> To: <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: My monthly meaningless rambling. Message-ID: <001801bd6679$369bd460$530d84d0@default>
>don't advocate selling off your cds, since you don't know what you'll like >year or two down the road.) I used to like Peruvian Skies, and now I
I'm in total agreement with Chris here. I, in the great 23 year span of my life (heh), have never sold a single CD back to a used CD shop. I may have given a few away here and there to people I know will appreciate them (or won't hate me if I later want it back). But every once in a while, I'll rummage around through my CD collection (God, I actually DO collect something, I hate hobbies) and find a rare gem that I'd either tossed aside or shunned completely. A shining example is the Vai: Sex and Religion disc...
I'm one of those whacko people who may like only one or two CD's of a band and buy the rest of their albums just so I have the set. I doubt I'm alone in this, but it's what I do. Anyway, Fire Garden was my first real introduction to Steve Vai's works (I'm a late bloomer, I know). After buying it and intaking its milky residue, I sought out more of his works. I picked up Passion and Warfare. Kind of 80's but still OK. Alien Love Secrets was a major score. Flexable was strange yet charming at the same time. And then I only had one left (at the time), the one that I'd seen many of in used bins around the world (or Cassia County anyway). It's the one with that fucking freak of nature Devin Townsend that fucked up Natural Science on the Working Man tribute. Fuck. So I bought it, listened to maybe the first 10 minutes of it and shuffled it off in the V section of my CD shelf.
Anyway, two years later (or something like that), I was in a hurry to get to work and was rummaging around for CD's to listen to. I accidentally grabbed that one instead of ALS (I file my CD's alphabetically/chronologically. Sick, eh?) So I'm sitting at work wanting to listen to Bad Horsie and I have Deep Down in the Pain. Fuck. So I pop it in anyway, and for some reason, Devey Wevey's vocals came to life for me. Crazy shit. And with it came a grudging respect for the man. Then I bought Ocean Machine and thought he was one of the premier rising musicians of our time along with the likes of Ron Thal and Hanson (lol). Then I bought Infinity and now I worship the man as my new and rightful savior; the purger of my sins and healer of my wounds. I've ordered the two Strapping Young Lad albums ordered on the faith that he will not fail me by creating shitty music. But, hell, God made spiders, too, so I can't dis Devin if he fucked up.
So... The moral of the story is: If you go fishing in a wading pool with Indiana Jones, you'd better expect to catch a grecian urn. -- KorgX3 is Ned Flanders on coffee and poppy seed muffins.
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:19:37 -0500 From: "Ryan Good, Loud Rock Director" <rtgood@students.wisc.edu> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Spock's Beard in Chicago?? Message-ID: <199904130121.UAA194906@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Anyone with Spock's Beard information concerning live shows in the mid-west, please post or send them to my e-mail address. I can't wait to see Spock's Beard!!! Hey...anyone know any Enchant tour dates? How about exact Ozric Tentacle tour dates? Thanks for the information
Ryan ____________________________________________________________________ WSUM - MADISON STUDENT RADIO ____________________________________________________________________ "Mountains come out of the sky and they stand there!" - Yes ____________________________________________________________________ Ryan Good - WSUM - Assistant Music Director / Loud Rock Director "The World is Tuning In..." WSUM/MSR Homepage - http://wsum.wisc.edu Host of Strong Progress, FRIDAY's 5pm-8pm Home - 608-286-6747 Radio - 608-262-1206 ____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:29:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu> To: YTSEJAM@axnet.net Subject: I need help from some Ibanez players... Message-ID: <01J9YKSC7IIQ91W955@alma.edu>
I'm assuming there are a few on this list. Has anyone ever figured out if there's a way to buy large quantities of those little white plastic bushings that go on the end of Edge tremolo arms? Guitar stores will usually give me one set at a time but none of them can seem to get them in bulk. It seems to me like after about a week of hard use the bar is already starting to rattle in the socket... Am I doing something wrong or do other people have the same problem? If anyone has some sort of modification or trick that keeps the bushings new longer or whatever that would be appreciated as well. The bar is pretty much useless once it starts clunking around in there. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. -Clark
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 4800 **************************
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