YTSEJAM Digest 5389
Today's Topics:
1) ISO: NYC, 2/26/00
by "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." <jeremysw@umd5.umd.edu>
2) Re: Keyboard Debacles, Theory (offtopicer than offtopic)
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
3) Re: Finally Free question...
by "Adriano F. Giacomini" <randy_rhoads@dreamtheater.zzn.com>
4) Just a daily humor break.
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
5) My take on theory
by funkygroove30@webtv.net (Robert Denni)
6) Cheez-Wolf
by Chris Oates <coates@objy.com>
7) Re: Re: Re: Setlist
by Angelo Lombardi <Angelo13@home.com>
8) Re: NYC, 2/26/00
by "Michele Moran" <michele@johndoe.org>
9) Re: Re: Re: Setlist (once again)
by Angelo Lombardi <Angelo13@home.com>
10) Metallica or AC/DC bootlegs
by "Doug Melvin" <djemelvin@hotmail.com>
11) ytsejam shirt
by Joshua Rasiel <josh@on-linedesign.com>
12) Re: Cheez-Wolf
by Emre Topuzoglu <Emret@ispro.net.tr>
13) music theory arguement
by "Doug Melvin" <djemelvin@hotmail.com>
14) Re: music theory arguement
by "Josh Calkin" <j_calkin@oz.plymouth.edu>
15) Re: ytsejam shirt
by Emre Topuzoglu <Emret@ispro.net.tr>
16) Finally Free ?
by Marie.Donnell@agso.gov.au
17) Woah
by Marie.Donnell@agso.gov.au
18) don't read this...
by "Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
19) regression/kubrick
by "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com>
20) Re: theory
by Fett2002@aol.com
21) Re: setlist
by Fett2002@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:51:01 -0500 (EST)
From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." <jeremysw@umd5.umd.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: ISO: NYC, 2/26/00
Message-ID: <200003132251.RAA22666@holmes.umd.edu>
I'm looking for the Roseland Ballroom performance from
this recent tour. I have a good deal of DT shows to
trade, as well as lots of other bands.
Thank you for your time.
--Jeremy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:00:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Debacles, Theory (offtopicer than offtopic)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10003131755560.40076-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Jens Johansson wrote:
> Anyway, FWIW, my views on "music theory" are:
>
> a) Basic knowledge of the concepts and names of devices are good -- it
> enables spoken communication with fellow musicians using common terms.
> Imagine how difficult life as a musicians would be without note names
> for instance! Higher level concepts are actually birds of the same
> feather, but at which level you should decide to stop caring is not a
> black and white issue. Because..
>
> b) this is ART we're talking about here, not computer programming or
> filling in a tax form.
>
> "Theory." What does it even mean? Do we look at the world of music
> with Fux' eyes? Schoenberg's, Hindemith's? Or Schenker's? If I name
> the chord "f h d g a#" (low to high) can any theory tell me what I
> should pick as a nice-sounding root note ("c# in the octave under the
> f", according to my ear, but what's the exact rule that excludes the
> other 11? I don't know.)
I should point out for Mr. Johansson to the rest of the Ytsejam who may
not be aware: The note "h", in some parts of Europe such as Germany (or is
it JUST Germany? Beats me) refers to a b natural, whereas the note "b"
refers to a b flat. Just clearing up any confusion on the part of other
jammers. :)
Also, I don't understand what kind of chord you're trying to build if
you've got C#, F, B (Nat), D, G, and A#/Bb. I'm playing it through in my
head and if played without the C#, it would sound kind of like a minor
chord with a tritone underneath it. With the C#, I can't figure out WHAT
it sounds like.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Coutermarsh
a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu
http://cout.dhs.org/
Cloak on IRC
ICQ: 2513441
-------------------------------------------------
Sometimes, when I would read a very good book,
I would stop and thank my teacher. At least, I
used to, until she got an unlisted number.
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:05:11 -0300
From: "Adriano F. Giacomini" <randy_rhoads@dreamtheater.zzn.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Finally Free question...
Message-ID: <B37CF298EE8F3D11DA8C0005B8E83179@randy_rhoads.dreamtheater.zzn.com>
>Maybe it's not as obvious to others as it is to me - but the chords
>on the record player are exactly those of "Regression" / "The Spirit
>Carries On." It's just an orchestral version played off a keyboard.
It was not as obvious to me, but isn't the melody played in the
record player the same sang by James in the songs you mentioned, only
at a slower tempo? I don't think it has to do with the chords as much
as it has with James' vocals...
Later,
Adriano
"A daily dose of eMpTyV will flush your mind right down the drain"
DREAM THEATER
Dream Theater newsletter - http://www.dreamtheater.net/uacmmail/
____________________________________________________________
Get your 100MB FREE Internet storage! Sign up now -
http://www.netdrive.com/?ao=zzn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:13:05 -0700
From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Just a daily humor break.
Message-ID: <001301bf8d41$cd27ee00$0201010a@meserver.meserver.com>
>"I can see much clearer, now I'm blind."--Dream Theater, Take the Time,
You know, Damon, I've been meaning to ask that. :) I haven't met any blind
people in person for a long time (pre-prog for me) and have wanted firsthand
input on that statement. Is is at all true? :) Enchant has one in their
song Open Eyes that says, "Even the blind can see with Open Eyes."
Now... Is the problem that you guys just walk around with your eyes shut
pretending that you can't see. I mean, with the sunglasses and all we
really can't tell if your eyes are open or not. So, the deal is that you
guys get home and take off the sunglasses so you can read the evening paper
when no one's looking isn't it! AHA! That explains the braile keys at the
drive through ATM's!
Pardon me, I've got a letter to write to my congressman. Handicapped my
ass. :) Here's a little jarble to screw up your text reader. @#$% laugh
&^%*
-- KorgX3 thinks blind people just have heat-sensing pits like the Predators. NP: Extreme - Rise N' Shine.mp3------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:02:00 -0500 (EST) From: funkygroove30@webtv.net (Robert Denni) To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: My take on theory Message-ID: <565-38CD8178-8083@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
I don't understand why some people are so against learning theory. It sounds like people think once you learn theory, you become an analitical computer and have no feeling. Look at it this way, it can't hurt to learn some basic theory. You can learn the rules, and then choose to ignore them. I'm a drummer, but I know enough theory where I can say to the guitar player, "Hey that chord doesn't sound right, go to the 5 chord" (I usually don't know the key the tune is in but I know the progressions and before I get flamed, I have a very limited knowledge of theory) If you can't comunicate with the musicians, you can't get your ideas across. Its like being in a room where everyone speaks another language and your stuck because you can't express your thoughts . Learning ANYTHING can only make you a better, well informed person, regardless of what you do with that knowledge.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:14:53 -0800 From: Chris Oates <coates@objy.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Cheez-Wolf Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000313161453.00ba23c0@pop>
>>On a happy note, can anyone make any doom metal reccomendations for me? I >love the melodic stuff, but I can deal with growling if the music is super >cool, like Opeth. Some other doom bands I like: Solitude Aeturnus (just >found these guys and they are the best!), Anathema, Paradise Lost, >Amorphis, Katatonia, My Dying Bride, and some Tiamet. Private or jam >email.. either way. > >You could try out Moonspell. (I recommend "Wolfheart", their first) They >have, like Paradise Lost, changed their style...
Careful: Serious amounts of cheeze in the lyrics on Wolfheart. The only times I could stand it was when they were singing in Portugese and I couldn't understnad them. I don't know about the other albums tho. I didn't end up buying Wolfheart, just tried to listen to it in the store once.
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:12:50 -0800 From: Angelo Lombardi <Angelo13@home.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: Setlist Message-ID: <38CDAE32.23200F2A@home.com>
> Springsteen has more talent in the hairs in his left nostril than you'll > ever have, plus he a damned fine guitarist too boot. > He's one of the most talented songwriters and musicians around, > that just happen to be a totally different type of music. > You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, because > Bruce dosen't play a million notes or play prog, he must be shit of > course.
WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar onto his back, and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into the mic for too long.
Obveously, "Gaz" (are you ashamed to use your REAL name?), you're ANOTHER clueless one.
GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:16:22 -0500 From: "Michele Moran" <michele@johndoe.org> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: NYC, 2/26/00 Message-ID: <00b401bf8d4a$8ea77a20$6e032640@ivan>
Hi,
I'm a new member of the list as well as a new DT fan... I'm also iso the NYC show (the New Haven show on 2/23/00 would be better, but I'll take what I can get)... but here's the thing.. I don't have anything to trade.. this is my first venture into band bootlegs.. (I have many Broadway Bootlegs, but I'm not sure how exciting that would be for y'all..) I'd be willing to pay for postage and the cost of a tape/cd... but I'm not willing to shell out HUGE amounts of cash.. (due to the whole legality factor, and all).. Can anyone offer assistance?
Thanks, Michele
======= "All melodious poets shall be hoarse as street ballads, when once the penetrating keynote of nature and spirit is sounded - the earth-beat, sea-beat, heart-beat, which make the tune to which the sun rolls, and the globule of blood and the sap of the trees."
-- Charles Ives (essays before a sonata, 1916)
an island of calm. . . http://johndoe.org/islandofcalm/
----- Original Message ----- ]From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." <jeremysw@umd5.umd.edu> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 6:00 PM Subject: ISO: NYC, 2/26/00
> > > I'm looking for the Roseland Ballroom performance from > this recent tour. I have a good deal of DT shows to > trade, as well as lots of other bands. > > Thank you for your time. > > --Jeremy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:20:07 -0800 From: Angelo Lombardi <Angelo13@home.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: Setlist (once again) Message-ID: <38CDAFE7.A1B5B281@home.com>
> Hmm I am sorry I forgot that I am only allowed to like one type of > music, sorry I'll unsubscribe straight away over your dead body. > > It may astound you that I don't listen to DT 24 hours a day, I like all > sorts of music, like Mike Oldfield, Sarah Brightman, lots of non > prog stuff, but still are great music.
Once AGAIN...
WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:23:51 EST From: "Doug Melvin" <djemelvin@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Metallica or AC/DC bootlegs Message-ID: <20000314002351.45560.qmail@hotmail.com>
Dear Ytse-jam folks,
I'm looking for some Metallica or AC/DC bootlegs of decent or good quality, and am willing to trade for Peter Gabriel or Phil Collins era Genesis bootlegs. If anyone can help me, please e-mail me privately at djemelvin@hotmail.com.
~Doug Melvin
"Geben Sie einem Mann einen Fisch; ziehen Sie ihn f)Bür einen Tag ein. Unterrichten Sie einen Mann zu fischen, und er sagt, 'Aww, schraubt es. Ich war nicht wirklich hungrig irgendwie.'" - Dunkles-Meer Melvin
"Give a man a fish; feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say 'Aww fuck it, I wasn't really hungry anyway.'" - Doug Melvin
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:22:33 -0500 From: Joshua Rasiel <josh@on-linedesign.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: ytsejam shirt Message-ID: <38CD8646.DA14CB7@on-linedesign.com>
This is my second post to the jam since resubbing about a week ago, from my workplace... In the first post, for those who forget, I called james gay and insulted the concert's graphics.
Alex, I just got your message and replied privately. I'm sorry you didn't get your shirt, but when i get your address i'll send you two more(normally you can't do that kind of thing, but what the hell).
On an unrelated topic, I just met the guy who invented He-Man!
Joshua
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:30:51 +0200 From: Emre Topuzoglu <Emret@ispro.net.tr> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Cheez-Wolf Message-ID: <38CD883B.6C1D4538@ispro.net.tr>
i dont like that kind of music too much(rytms and melodies are good except vocals `just my opinion`) but i can reccomend you the edge of sanity ...they kick ass !
Chris Oates wrote: > > >>On a happy note, can anyone make any doom metal reccomendations for me? I > >love the melodic stuff, but I can deal with growling if the music is super > >cool, like Opeth. Some other doom bands I like: Solitude Aeturnus (just > >found these guys and they are the best!), Anathema, Paradise Lost, > >Amorphis, Katatonia, My Dying Bride, and some Tiamet. Private or jam > >email.. either way. > > > >You could try out Moonspell. (I recommend "Wolfheart", their first) They > >have, like Paradise Lost, changed their style... > > Careful: Serious amounts of cheeze in the lyrics on Wolfheart. The only > times I could stand it was when they were singing in Portugese and I > couldn't understnad them. I don't know about the other albums tho. I > didn't end up buying Wolfheart, just tried to listen to it in the store once.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:12:22 EST From: "Doug Melvin" <djemelvin@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: music theory arguement Message-ID: <20000314021222.37266.qmail@hotmail.com>
Folks,
Enough is enough, you guys seem to like to flame the flames... I've had it almost up to here **raises hand to eyeballs** with the bickering on this list. Everybody has an opinion about somebody else's opinion. There ARE some people on this list, ya know, that would like to discuss Dream Theater in peace. I'm also sure that I'll be engulfed in flames for posting this, because you folks just seem to find that each other person is wrong. To add relevance to this posting, I'd just like to say that you couldn't all be more right. Every one of you. It's called theory because it's not proven, and can't be, therefore it is whatever you make of it. There is NO such thing as music fact. Nobody can possibly be wrong about this subject, because it is completely based on opinion. If you don't wan't to trouble yourself with learning it, then don't. If you want to live your life by it and consecrate it as your Bible, then do so. But, leave the poor people who don't want their e-mail boxes flooded with stuff that they don't care about. If you want to continue this (and every other) damned silly disagreement, then do it PRIVATELY!!! As for whoever it was that said that instructions on how to un-sub from the list should be sent with each post or digest, I think that you're on to something. Some people are so incredibly ignorant that they don't look for an answer, they just complain about the problem. Kudos to you.
~Doug Melvin
"Geben Sie einem Mann einen Fisch; ziehen Sie ihn f)Bür einen Tag ein. Unterrichten Sie einen Mann zu fischen, und er sagt, 'Aww, schraubt es. Ich war nicht wirklich hungrig irgendwie.'" - Dunkles-Meer Melvin
"Give a man a fish; feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say 'Aww fuck it, I wasn't really hungry anyway.'" - Doug Melvin
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:33:30 -0500 From: "Josh Calkin" <j_calkin@oz.plymouth.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: music theory arguement Message-ID: <000701bf8d5d$afb03960$47ab889e@plymouth.edu>
----- Original Message ----- ]From: Doug Melvin <djemelvin@hotmail.com>
> As for whoever it was that said that instructions on how to un-sub from > the list should be sent with each post or digest, I think that you're on to > something. Some people are so incredibly ignorant that they don't look for
Possibly, but I'm on another mailing list which inserts unsub instructions at the end of each post, and it can get rather tiresome to look at...
How about just a little "unsub instructions found at http://www.are_you_an_idiot.com " blurb or something....
Regards, Josh Calkin: URL: http://members.tripod.com/~DarkHarmony E-Mail: darkharmony13@hotmail.com j_calkin@oz.plymouth.edu ICQ: 22473371, AOL IM: Mortua, IRC: Mortua
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:40:22 +0200 From: Emre Topuzoglu <Emret@ispro.net.tr> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ytsejam shirt Message-ID: <38CDA696.6C273103@ispro.net.tr>
Hi there, are you sell/trade DT thsirts ? if you do ,let me know
Joshua Rasiel wrote: > > This is my second post to the jam since resubbing about a week ago, from > my workplace... In the first post, for those who forget, I called james > gay and insulted the concert's graphics. > > Alex, I just got your message and replied privately. I'm sorry you > didn't get your shirt, but when i get your address i'll send you two > more(normally you can't do that kind of thing, but what the hell). > > On an unrelated topic, I just met the guy who invented He-Man! > > Joshua
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:50:30 +1100 From: Marie.Donnell@agso.gov.au To: lyric@jhu.edu Cc: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Finally Free ? Message-ID: <52113C81E9ACD31182D40060B0570D9B366E4D@agsomail1.agso.gov.au>
<<Maybe it's not as obvious to others as it is to me - but the chords=20 on the record player are exactly those of "Regression" / "The Spirit=20 Carries On." It's just an orchestral version played off a keyboard.>>
I noticed that as well but i wasn't sure! Hey at least i'm not the only one who thinks that I heard the similar chords but i wasn't sure if they were the same or not I listened more closely today and they are i recon! :)
-Marie
------------------------------------------------- Mystery ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Life is no more assuring than love There are no answers from voices above ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:56:25 +1100 From: Marie.Donnell@agso.gov.au To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Woah Message-ID: <52113C81E9ACD31182D40060B0570D9B366E4E@agsomail1.agso.gov.au>
<<Actually, while I'm not familiar with Rammstein's stage antics (though I have heard that they light themselves on fire), I do know that G.G. Allen has
- masturbated on stage into little plastic baggies and thrown them into = the audience for party favors - taken a razor blade and carved himself up on stage (carved, people. Carved.) - inserted a banana in his rectum and then eaten it - masturbated into his hand on stage and eaten it - deficated (sp?) on stage and then eaten it (and smeared it on his body= as well)=20>>
Holy Crap!!
Ive never even heard of this guy!!! What kind of show is it? Can someone fill me in. Damn, the worst ive heard in Australia is Alice Cooper throwing live spiders into the audience!
-Marie
------------------------------------------------- Mystery ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Dance like no one is watching.. Work like you aren't working... Love like you've never been hurt.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:07:29 -0500 From: "Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: don't read this... Message-ID: <003a01bf8d6a$d45a4a00$0200010a@steve>
> I'm a bassist and have played by ear for nearly 9 years now and no-one = I > know are as nearly as creative musically as I am (I'm not talkin' about the > pros 'a la' Myung or Trujillo ect...).
I'm not trying to discount your experience here, but how musically creati= ve you think you are is completely subjective.
> Once after a very hard time at a cover song I tried my shot at music theory > with my guitarist and found after a while that when I found a tune I wo= uld > fall more and more often into the same kind of sounds and 'chords'.
Personally, I think this happens more often with people who don't know theory or don't know much theory: they keep writing I-IV-V songs. They don't know it or what to call it, though. They may just think it sounds different (or maybe not even notice that it's the same chord progression)= if they do it in a different key.
> Theory let's you learn tricks,
Like what?
> and you can put up a show and sound good,
How is using music theory "[putting] up a show?" I thought the backbone = of the "trained vs.. untrained in theory" argument was that it didn't matter how well-trained one was, as long as it "sounds good." Is it somehow fak= e?
> but your music sounds like the others around you,
That doesn't really have as much to do with KNOWING music theory as it do= es with CONFORMING to music theory. People who strictly adhere to "Bach" voice-leading rules will come up with similar chord progressions quite a bit. But, 1) it (theory) goes a lot further than that and B) as it alway= s has been, it's what you make of it. The "rules" of composition don't cha= nge once you learn theory. Just play what sounds right to your ears/brain/heart. The theory just may take you somewhere you wouldn't ha= ve gone before. (Cue 'Star Trek' theme.)
> You know, first of all, Western listeners aren't what they used to be. = :)
Amen to that. :) While some of them have become less and less open to ne= w, different sounds because of what is spoon-fed them by the media...
> The last century assaulted and a-peppered "western ears" with a lot > of non-traditional-western spices... serialism, and lots of music from > the rest of the planet.
..others of them have embraced the aforementioned "flavors" (trying to stick to the assault-and-pepper pun!) and more and assimilated them into = - pardon the clich=E9 - the universal language of music.
> I notice a lot of people using "theory" as a sort of shibboleth -- > at best, using it as a futile pastime or futile exercise to defend idea= s > they like,
I understand where you're coming from, but is it really futile? Wouldn't= it stand to reason that the same could be said of all arguments? Surely hum= ans can communicate without an organized language, but wouldn't that make language the theory of communication? If I defend an argument in English= , I have to use the English language, even though it is flawed (even more so than a million other languages).
> at worst, as a futile exercise in intellectual snobbery and > exclusion of fellow (sometimes non-western-eared) humans from some > sort of imagined circle of initiates. (That doesn't mean that "Theory" can't > have other, more benevolent uses or that it can't be fun.)
That exclusion isn't always done on purpose, though. In any field, wheth= er artistic or not, a certain elitism will create itself, simply by virtue o= f the fact that those "in the know" will talk to eachother in terms that th= e layman doesn't understand.
(Incidentally, those trained in Eastern music generally espouse even more elitism that westerners when it concerns the music of their homeland. Mo= st likely because, in eastern cultures, the music is often married to religi= on, and it is not easy for eastern people to accept a musician whom they know does not share their beliefs.)
My mom hates it when my brother and I talk about music, acoustics, or guitars and amps because she says it's like we're speaking another langua= ge and she doesn't understand it. That doesn't make our conversation any le= ss valid, though.
And if that's not artistic enough for you :), look at it this way: who i= s to say that an artist creates his art in order to appeal to the widest audience possible? Maybe it's being created for an elite. We don't know= , we'll never know, and it doesn't make any difference. If you like it, yo= u like it. So what if there are aspects of it that you don't understand. Don't condemn the people that do.
I think it's pretty ironic that many people here become so annoyed and indignant when someone takes "their" music and applies theoretical concep= ts to it that may not be for everybody and they might not understand, but as soon as a certain band makes any attempt to reach a wider audience, said band is accused of "selling out."
> "Western Theory" is a lot like Freudian psychoanalysis, it's basically > defined completely in its own terms, and with a little fantasy you can > twist its little arm and make it say anything you want --
I don't necessarily agree with that. One musical term, taken out of context, is no more defined in its own terms than a definition taken out = of context from the glossary of graphic art or, for that matter, chemistry. The point being that individual terms must be taken in context in order t= o have meaning. And if it takes "a little fantasy" to construe the meaning into something else, then you're probably beyond the true meaning of the term, rendering the argument invalid.
Besides, music theory isn't meant to be accepted as dogma. Just a standa= rd for communication. Like language. Wasn't it Frank Zappa who said, "Talk= ing about music is like fishing about architecture."?
> And if you make the experiment to encode these so called "western > rules" into generative procedures the result is rubbish -- completely > unmusical. Which suggests to me that the rules are not extremely important.
Yes, that's true. That's why the greatest music (to me anyway) is compos= ed with a BALANCE of the theoretical component and the human component. A computer can't feel the tension and resolution (not to mention the other, less tangible things that make music good) like a person can.
> > > > Why? Because if you want to live in Spain, you'd better > > > > learn Spanish. > > I couldn't have said it better myself. [ ... ] > > Being serious about music means learning theory. You're fooling yourself if > > you think otherwise. > > I think I can agree with most of this, but with the slant that I think anyone > being serious about music will WANT to know more about it sooner or lat= er.
That's what I meant, and that's what I would hope of anyone who considere= d himself serious about music. I guess that wasn't too clear. Bygones. :)
> Another way to put it: I can make a totally grammatically correct > sentence like: "Sleepless sacramental hyperboles are cresting parenthetically, > and a somewhat commodious handkerchief lamented whilst a few eleemosyna= ry > cribbage-boards slurred." > > No rules broken, but meaningless nonetheless. Or: "I the rules because this sentence no verbs." > > Which is "wrong," but makes more sense to me, anyway.
Me too, but it only makes sense because the brain completes patterns and remembers experience. In the same way that we see a picture with a few small parts missing and still recognize what it is meant to represent, we see the clue "no verbs" at the end and mentally insert the correct words.
Removing the verbs from the above sentence is like removing the barlines from a line of music. From the time signature and the phrase markings, i= f any, we can infer the meter. Remove a notehead here and there, however, = and it's like making the above sentence read:
"Break the because this has no."
Are those even the verbs you meant? :P
> OK, enough word diarrhea from this corner of the Great Chaos I think!! = :)
Not diarrhea! I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange! :)
Steve Z
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:18:12 PST From: "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: regression/kubrick Message-ID: <20000314041812.18409.qmail@hotmail.com>
>Actually, I think from what I read back when the album first came out is >that is some theme from the Clockwork Orange. Proabably a tip of the hatto >the late Stanley Kubrick from Mike. Actually actually, if you've hung around after DT's shows, they play a longer version of that piece, and it's just a different version of "Regression" from SFAM.
So your sayin' they ripped Regression off of Kubrick?!!?!??! =^). Sorry, couldn't resist.
-Banjoman had something else he wanted to post, but forgot what it was... np: Disco Biscuits - Afro Blue->Aquatic Ape->Mindless Dribble.mp3 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:02:58 EST From: Fett2002@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: theory Message-ID: <84.28d6011.25ff2202@aol.com>
<< If you want to seriously pursue playing and writing music, you should learn theory. Why? Because if you want to live in Spain, you'd better learn Spanish. -Fran/Banjoman >>
No offense, but that's a really bad analogy. One does NOT need to know theory to play music or enjoy. One MUST speak Spanish in order to live in Spain since most people there speak Spanish. -Mike C.
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:23:32 EST From: Fett2002@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: setlist Message-ID: <39.25e3894.25ff26d4@aol.com>
<< Just dont create a discussion , but how can you set up your mind when changing Metropolis disc to Bruce ? i mean it must be hard to get over it ..changing complex progrees metal to some sort of pop ! >>
Well, I think most people need to have balance in their lives as well as in their music collection. So, while I don't like Sprinsteen at all, I can see why DT fans (or any prog fans) might like them. I love DT to death but sometimes I just need to listen to something more fun and less complex like punk or something. It's like food. I love cheesesteaks (a philly thing but I dont want them every night. Music doesn't have to be complex to be good. Somtimes, IMO, it can be harder to me a really good song that's simple. Variety is the spice of life, enjoy it all. -Mike C.
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5389 **************************
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