YTSEJAM Digest 5390
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Springsteen/setlists
by Fett2002@aol.com
2) Re: Setlist (once again)
by Phil Carter <artoo@bellsouth.net>
3) apologies!
by "Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
4) Re: Re: Re: Setlist
by "Graham B" <graham@renegade2K.com>
5) Can your sensei do this?
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
6) Re: Springsteen/setlists
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
7) Prog and Bruce Springsteen, etc.
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
8) Through Her Eyes / Moonspell
by "Tanja Sorsa" <Tanja.Sorsa@fng.fi>
9) Re:Through Her Eyes / Moonspell
by "Nissinen Tommi"
10) Two choices to becoming a learned musican.
by Matt Birskovich <mattb@primenet.com>
11) wake up Angelo
by Matej <izolit@siol.net>
12) talent
by "Adrian K. Tunggono" <pluki7@indosat.net.id>
13) A bit more about "Dead or Alive"
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
14) Video/DVD plans
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
15) music theory
by Uroborosss@aol.com
16) spanish
by Uroborosss@aol.com
17) The Boss
by mildew@ucla.edu
18) Theory (It's music, stop bitchin'!)
by "Chris Ptacek" <someone@enteract.com>
19) Re: Theory (It's music, stop bitchin'!)
by Brian D Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
20) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5389
by alejandro.bedolla@schering.de
21) a short essay on theory
by mikel <mikel@alphalink.com.au>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:34:25 EST
From: Fett2002@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Springsteen/setlists
Message-ID: <60.15eed17.25ff2961@aol.com>
<< Yes, his concerts are 3+ hours, I saw him last fall. And I don't know if
I'd
start arguing that DT is "tighter" or "timing is more involved"...yeah, they
use goofy time sigs, but they also only have four instruments to coordinate,
whereas most Springsteen songs have at least 5 or 6, and when you're in that
kind of ensemble each person has to remember all the cues, not just their
own. The E Street band doesn't play "loose," at all. They're always very
tight holding down the backbone. >>
OK, I didn't want to make an argument out if it, it's just the imporession
that I generally got. I've never seen Sprinsteen live so I can't really
coment. It just seems like they would play looser.
>. I can respect someone who puts in the practice time to
>get good at their instrument, but unless they write good songs I'm not going
>to be impressed,
I agree.
>which is why DT is pretty much the only "prog(metal)" band
>that I like. They write actual songs (or at least they did until their
>latest effort), with emotion, and that's what I'm looking for. Ie.
Fair enough, though I wouldn't really agree with your comment about DT's
latest efforet not being emotional though.
>I could care less what style, what instruments, what anything. If I like the
song, >that's all that matters to me.
Well said. A good view point to have. I as a get older I am tending to do
this more and more. At times in the past, I'd just have not allowed myself to
like any song or band that I didn't think fit in with my established tastes.
But now, I am not fighting it as much and it is becoming liberating, opening
me up to new kinds of music.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:02:03 -0500
From: Phil Carter <artoo@bellsouth.net>
To: A Pleasant Shade of Ytse <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Setlist (once again)
Message-ID: <4.1.20000314005504.009fd720@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Greetings ye 'jamanoids....
Gaz, in full voice:
>> Springsteen has more talent in the hairs in his left nostril than you'll
>> ever have, plus he a damned fine guitarist too boot.
>> He's one of the most talented songwriters and musicians around,
>> that just happen to be a totally different type of music.
>> You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, because
>> Bruce dosen't play a million notes or play prog, he must be shit of
>> course.
and Angelo Lombardi, breathing fire:
>WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC
>HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS??????
>He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
>A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar onto his
>back,
>and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into the mic for too long.
>Obveously, "Gaz" (are you ashamed to use your REAL name?),
a) This kind of crap has no place on the list. If you want to flame Gaz,
private email is a wonderful thing.
b) "Gaz" is a fairly commonly used nickname for "Graham". More fool you for
not knowing that.
c) "Springsteen is a fine guitarist" is a statement called an OPINION. That
means anybody can think that if they want. They don't need your fucking
permission.
d) If you're going to flame somebody else for what you perceive to be their
lack of knowledge, you should try cleaning up your spelling and grammar first.
>you're ANOTHER clueless one.
>GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!
Pot. Kettle. Black.
cheers,
Phil
==================================================
Phil Carter -- artoo@bellsouth.net -- http://users.usefulware.com/phil
"Music, the greatest good that mortals know / And all of heaven we have below."
-- Joseph Addison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:08:26 -0500
From: "Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: apologies!
Message-ID: <004c01bf8d7b$bb959720$0200010a@steve>
I apologize for the text-wrapping (or lack thereof) in my last
post. I think I've fixed the problem.
Steve Z
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:30:03 +1100
From: "Graham B" <graham@renegade2K.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Setlist
Message-ID: <200003140331.e2E3VMD15502@sampa.simpleweb.com.br>
> WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE
ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT
> THIS?????? He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
>
> A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar
> onto his back, and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into
> the mic for too long.
>
> Obveously, "Gaz" (are you ashamed to use your REAL name?), you're
> ANOTHER clueless one.
>
> GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!
Well all I can say to this is, well, nothing accept I'll be forwarding
your mail to the list moderator.
gaz
gaz is the nick I use on the net, my real name is Michael Bahr.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:56:12 -0700
From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@safelink.net>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Can your sensei do this?
Message-ID: <002a01bf8d82$7b106480$5b0d84d0@default>
>One musical term, taken out of context, is no more defined in its own terms
<than a definition taken out of context from the glossary of graphic art or,
>for that matter, chemistry.
It's an average day at the rice paddy in China. A kind weathered old man is
teaching his latest desciple the finer points of musical education. Our
scene begins, the master in the lotus position, guiding his pupil through
some of the more difficult stages of chording a guitar.
"Play an E5b7^5 on an inverted Ionian scale, grasshopper... Also, do so
while standing on your head."
"But master, such a thing cannot be done!"
"First you must see that nothing can be done, then you will understand that
everything is possible."
*Grasshopper stands on his head, focusing his concentration. As he reaches
around grasping at the chord, he dislocates his hand at the wrist in the
process.*
"Master! I will never play again!" *Grasshopper sobbed in anguish*
"Now you see, grasshopper, how fucking useless your theory really is!!!
MUAHAHAHAHAH!"
*Master turns into Ming the Merciless and drops a heavenly body on
grasshopper.*
-- KorgX3 thinks people take theory too seriously.------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:43:23 -0800 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Springsteen/setlists Message-ID: <200003140743.XAA18524@gms.gmsnet.com>
Before being sacrificed upon the altar..., Fett2002@aol.com thus begged: > ><< Yes, his concerts are 3+ hours, I saw him last fall. And I don't know if >I'd > start arguing that DT is "tighter" or "timing is more involved"...yeah, they > use goofy time sigs, but they also only have four instruments to coordinate, > whereas most Springsteen songs have at least 5 or 6, and when you're in that > kind of ensemble each person has to remember all the cues, not just their > own. The E Street band doesn't play "loose," at all. They're always very > tight holding down the backbone. >> > >OK, I didn't want to make an argument out if it, it's just the imporession >that I generally got. I've never seen Sprinsteen live so I can't really >coment. It just seems like they would play looser.
Talk about "tight" and "loose", if you want to compare DT to someone, when Fates opened for DT, Fates was much "tighter" than DT. Mainly because Zonder is a drum machine.
-The Doc
-- ------ drkhoe@gmsnet.com -------------- ++++++ ---------------------- ///// http://progmetal.gmsnet.com ----------------==== Unix systems - C/C++ video game engine development =><=============== Administration ===================== Intranet/Internet Engineering =================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 100 23:53:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Prog and Bruce Springsteen, etc. Message-ID: <200003140753.AA28897@crl.crl.com>
"Open your ears, Angelo!"
I'm not really a fan of Springsteen, but I'll be the first to say he is far from being a non-talent. His live shows were (are?) always different, he'd tell stories during his sets (different ones each night), and he's not unskilled in the guitar department.... I actually own one of the CDs in the 3-disk box-set where he tells one of those stories. (I wasn't enough of a fan to buy the whole thing, and I was lucky enough to find the one CD used. :))
As far as DT varying their setlist, on the current tour it would be fairly difficult with the video tie-ins, tricky timing, etc. Maybe in the future they'll be able to vary things up more. I'd like to see it, but I'm not at ALL sad that the shows I saw had the same sets. Both were stunning and they were subtly different enough -- especially the Atlanta show -- that I wasn't dissatisfied.
-- + Paul W. Cashman vanyel@crl.com www.crl.com/~vanyel ICQ #4151223+ | Rush * Robert Jordan * Godhead * Michael Moorcock * Changelings | | James P. Hogan * Dream Theater * Storm Constantine * NIN * Dead | | Can Dance * Patrick O'Brian * Ozric Tentacles * Raymond Feist....|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:08:10 EET-2 From: "Tanja Sorsa" <Tanja.Sorsa@fng.fi> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Through Her Eyes / Moonspell Message-ID: <200003140810.KAA02711@sieni.fng.fi>
Howdy ho! :)
I bought the new DT single last Saturday and I really like the two versions of Through Her Eyes. I like the way they differ from the original song, especially the saxophone on the alt. album mix.
But what bothers me is the live version of "Home". It sounds slower than the album version. Of course music is never the same live, but James' singing sounds slower as well. It's almost (well not really) hard to tell it's James, like the recording would be just slightly too slow, you know? Or then he just sings plain funny. I've yet to hear this song live myself - I will next week in Helsinki - so I don't know how they play it. Maybe someone else has heard the single, is it just in my ears or does it sound funny to someone else as well?
Btw, does anyone know if DT (or Spock's Beard, damn I can't wait to see them again) will have a record signing in Helsinki?
Someone asked about Moonspell. They are one of my favourite bands, and I like their stuff from "Wolfheart" to the new "The Butterfly Effect", with all the musical changes. The album that got me hooked was "Irreligious" which I would recommend for everyone. If someone doesn't like cookie monster vocals that much, they might want to start with the latest (Butterfly) which is (according to my proghead boyfriend who's always hated Moonspell) actually good music (hehe), and go "backwards" to their older stuff. Moonspell is good live band aswell, rather teatherical (sp?).
And on a side note, people go see Steve Vai!!! That man and his band (esp. Mike Mangini like someone mentioned) are gods and give one of the best shows I've EVER seen!
Tanja http://Tenze.tripod.com (for DT and Moonspell pictures)
NP - "Right here in my arms" - HIM
------------------------------
Date: 14 Mar 2000 10:20:00 +0300 From: "Nissinen Tommi" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re:Through Her Eyes / Moonspell Message-ID: <JA8AAAAAAJT4ogABYQADbpMOAcxU@kesko.fi>
Tanja Sorsa (14.3.2000 11:19): >>Howdy ho! :) > >I bought the new DT single last Saturday and I really like the two >versions of Through Her Eyes. I like the way they differ from the >original song, especially the saxophone on the alt. album mix.
I bought the single yesterday, too and i have to agree with you. Mr. Jay Beckenstein=B4s alto saxophone plays its magical language again. Just like= on "Another Day". Only a week and a half to go to Helsinki-gig and i can=B4t= wait...
-Tommi
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:39:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Matt Birskovich <mattb@primenet.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Two choices to becoming a learned musican. Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.1000314083847.27891E-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
1. Sit on your ass all day, listening to all types of music from antiquity to Baroque, and transcribe it. Look at the similarities and developments and see how it works.
2. Learn theory.
"I'm so blind." (Korn)
Notice the new email address. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mattb __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ mattb@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:10:22 +0100 From: Matej <izolit@siol.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: wake up Angelo Message-ID: <38CD4B2E.FB65AA26@siol.net>
Who died and made you the grand jury?? Who the fuck are you to say who's got talent or not. Do you have any credentials? Introduce yourself, fuckface! How old did you say you were?
And yes, sometimes, one chord does the trick and is more musical and tasteful than 45 minutes opus guitar wanking. Victor Wooten proved that with his one note bass solo on Bass Extremes Cookbook. Or is that two notes, how unmusical and untalanted.. doh!
What the fuck am I doing here.. replying to some moron, trying to beat some sense in his average undeveloped mind, uncapable of objective or subjective aprecciation of general music.
Matej
NP: Eric Clapton: River Of Tears
>> WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar onto his back, and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into the mic for too long.
Obveously, "Gaz" (are you ashamed to use your REAL name?), you're ANOTHER clueless one.
GO FUCK YOURSELF!!! <<
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:49:10 +0700 From: "Adrian K. Tunggono" <pluki7@indosat.net.id> To: ~status seekers <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: talent Message-ID: <38CDFCF8.527BDFDB@indosat.net.id>
Angelo Lombardi said:
> WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? > He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
talent: a special natural or learnt ability or skill, especially of a high quality.
So what do you mean?
> A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar onto his > back, > and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into the mic for too long.
Is he not able to sing in tune or play in time with the rest of his band? I've seen his live video and I must have missed it if he ever made any minor mistake while performing. Heck, he is a talented entertainer / performer, I'll give him that.
Or do you mean he is not able to write a song that YOU would like to hear? I too don't really enjoy his songs, but this doesn't mean he couldn't write a SONG! Does writing a Dream Theater song take more talent than writing a Bruce Springsteen one? HOW do we measure that? By the amount of odd-meter riffs in the song? Or the amount of notes in the guitar solo? I don't know HOW. Does somebody else know? Some people love to say that 'this' song brings more emotion for them than 'that' song. HOW do we measure the emotion? Do YOU get me? How would you proove that Bruce Springsteen has NO talent whatsoever? By an IQ test, maybe?
I'm not defending Bruce here, I dislike his music. I just think you're being illogical with your statement. What you're saying SOUNDS TO ME like "don't mention Bruce because I HATE HIS MUSIC and I don't care if that makes me hate him personally with no additional or substantial reasons whatsoever". Of course I could be wrong. Flame away if you must, tee hee hee. ;-P
You can find my real name in the header, by the way. -- pluki 8498006
"You can fight without ever winning But never ever win without a fight"
-N. Peart
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 100 00:47:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: A bit more about "Dead or Alive" Message-ID: <200003140847.AA29132@crl.crl.com>
Also present at some point during that little escapade was a friend of the band's (or maybe of Mike's), one Rich Kern. (His name appears in a few other places in Ytse-dom, I think). I know he was involved because he was backstage at the Malibu Beach Club show (Dec. '95, I think) and was there by Mike Portnoy when Mike Bahr (!) and I were there. I -think- Chris Collins was the one singing and Rich was the one tossing in the extra, uh, comments. :) Mike, if you're out there, maybe you can clarify this......it's been a few years since that show. :)
-- + Paul W. Cashman vanyel@crl.com www.crl.com/~vanyel ICQ #4151223+ | Rush * Robert Jordan * Godhead * Michael Moorcock * Changelings | | James P. Hogan * Dream Theater * Storm Constantine * NIN * Dead | | Can Dance * Patrick O'Brian * Ozric Tentacles * Raymond Feist....|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 100 00:50:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Video/DVD plans Message-ID: <200003140850.AA29155@crl.crl.com>
I -thought- I'd mentioned this before, but.....
They ARE planning to record one of the shows later on this year for video and DVD release. So, we'll be seeing SOMETHING. I just hope they'll still be doing all of SFaM at that show......or, if it's a "dreambill" show, I hope to hell I can BE there. :)
(Source: James Labrie, after the Atlanta show; a few seconds later he confirmed they'd be touring South America.)
-- + Paul W. Cashman vanyel@crl.com www.crl.com/~vanyel ICQ #4151223+ | Rush * Robert Jordan * Godhead * Michael Moorcock * Changelings | | James P. Hogan * Dream Theater * Storm Constantine * NIN * Dead | | Can Dance * Patrick O'Brian * Ozric Tentacles * Raymond Feist....|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:04:33 EST From: Uroborosss@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: music theory Message-ID: <6b.25eab85.25ff5aa1@aol.com>
Discussing music theory is fun. It would be more fruitful if I knew something about it. Kind of like trying to convince my grandmother that the Great Depression really wasn't so bad.
> From: "Christopher W. Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com> > Subject: Theory, and Richard Warren's Midi Foot Controller > >> BUT it in no way makes you more creative or helps you come up with >> music. > > You can't be serious here.
Perhaps he meant to say, "Knowledge does not equal creativity," which is at least a semi-serious concept. Music theory won't magically transform an uncreative guitarist into Ron Thal overnight, but I agree that the more tools the mind has to work with, the greater its potential. At the very least a guitarist needs to have something to communicate before music theory will have any effect - an ambitious brain that desires understanding and activity is a creative one, regardless of how empty it is.
If you have nothing to communicate, and you sit in a pot of dirt with nothing to say, you're a cactus.
>> BUT it in no way makes you more creative or helps you come up with >> music. > > Isn't that EXACTLY the same thing as saying "Knowing how to build > chords won't help you learn to build chords" or "knowing how to place a > microphone won't help you make a better sounding recording"?
Music theory doesn't help you come up with music nearly as much as listening to music or playing music. Music theory doesn't turn your mind into a gushing waterfall of musical ideas. Reading books on correct grammar and sentence-structure won't make you a more prolific writer or increase your desire to write, but writing all the time about whatever you want will probably do both. Music theory and grammar textbooks can make you "better" at understanding certain things and therefore "help" you, but they certainly don't help you "come up with" musical notes or written paragraphs, which is what the original post said.
No piece of information about HOW to do something can automatically instill within someone the desire to do something WITH that information. More often it is the desire that creates the search for the information rather than the other way around. I'll learn about algebra if I (for some reason) want to, but placing the textbooks in front of me won't make me want to open them.
> When you learn bits and pieces of music theory, you gain pieces of > the puzzle.
If you aren't deeply interested in writing or playing music, those puzzle pieces are as interesting and useful as chunks of brick. You only gain something if you plan on using that knowledge, and lots of people who learn music theory go on to do other things with their lives, such as algebra or bricklaying. Some people decide that what they really want to do is stare at the sun.
If you spend all day starin' at the sun, you're a cactus.
> It opens doors for you. If you don't master the concepts, they can become > crutches, and what not, but when you understand music better, the process > of creating music becomes easier.
Yes! The process is smoothed out, like a trowel gliding over rough concrete.
> It doesn't necessarily make you more creative, but it may, considering > that you'll have more colors on your palette. What it WON'T do is make > you more proficient on your instrument. Theory is one of the head games in > music. But all of your musical ideas start at your head, even if you think > you're just noodling. Knowing more facilitates DOING more.
Facilitates, yes. It increases the operational capabilities. It teaches you how to drive your music, but it doesn't give you an itinerary of travel, or gasoline. A musician must draw up his own itinerary and decide where his (OR HER YOU SEXIST PIG!) music will go. If you aren't the sort who wonders or demands, music theory will teach you to drive a car locked inside a garage.
> Knowing more facilitates DOING more.
In some cases, such as karate, knowing more facilitates doing less.
> I don't mean to overemphasize the value of theory, as you can most > certainly make GREAT music without knowing it
I don't mean to overemphasize the value of shredding, as you can most certainly make NEW AGE music without knowing it
> but it will make your life easier to learn some theory. Start by learning > all the notes in every major scale
Then learn to play them up and down as fast as possible.
> and then start spelling out your chords, etc.
Chords? Are those like arpeggios?
> More or less, you've eliminated the need for a guitar (key, bass, whatever) > teacher, unless you need technical help.
Technical help. Such as learning how to play FASTER.
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:10:54 EST From: Uroborosss@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: spanish Message-ID: <b0.27ae782.25ff5c1e@aol.com>
> From: "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com> > Subject: theory > > If you want to seriously pursue playing and writing music, you should > learn theory. Why? Because if you want to live in Spain, you'd better > learn Spanish. > -Fran/Banjoman
Spain and America have a lot in common.
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:41:01 -0800 From: mildew@ucla.edu To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: The Boss Message-ID: <200003140940.BAA14195@caracal.noc.ucla.edu>
Some guy said: -------------------------- "WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!! A fine guitarist???? He plays ONE fucking chord, throws the guitar onto his back, and screetches (some ACTULLY calls this singing) into the mic for too long. Obveously, "Gaz" (are you ashamed to use your REAL name?), you're ANOTHER clueless one. GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!" ---------------------------
I pretty much grew up listening to Springsteen. Don't have any of his albums, though my parents have a bunch, but I always liked him. The first song of his that comes to mind is the main theme for the movie "Philadelphia", and of the same name, I believe. It's a beautiful, slow, moody piece and there is nothing at all reminiscent of screeching. Be informed before you voice such a strong opinion.
On second thought, I don't think this message will be comprehensible to the person who spouted the above garbage so let me try again in a slightly different style: WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE??????? I like Bruce Springsteen so you can plainfully FUCK yourself, and after you're finished doing that you can GO TO HELL because Satan's firewall won't allow your stupidity to make its way to torchsong.com!!!!
~~Amanda I always wanted to do that
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:25:50 -0600 From: "Chris Ptacek" <someone@enteract.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Theory (It's music, stop bitchin'!) Message-ID: <000801bf8d97$49f16c40$34d8fea9@lbird.enteract.com>
"Gervois Stephen" >> You can't be serious here. Isn't that EXACTLY the same thing as saying >>"Knowing how to build chords won't help you learn to build chords" or >>"knowing how to place a microphone won't help you make a better sounding >>recording"? When you learn bits and pieces of music theory, you gain >>pieces >>of the puzzle. It opens doors for you. If you don't master the concepts, >>they can become crutches, and what not, but when you understand music >>better, the process of creating music becomes easier. >Wrong wrong and wrong again, I cannot agree. >1) We're all different and
And? I would never dispute that point. But everyone needs a bath now and then. In some ways, we're all alike. We all have a lot to learn.
>2) I can start by telling you about what I've lived : >I'm a bassist and have played by ear for nearly 9 years now and no-one I >know are as nearly as creative musically as I am (I'm not talkin' about the >pros 'a la' Myung or Trujillo ect...).
Okay, I'm a guitarist of 12 years. Does that make my experiences more valid than yours? No... but let's continue.
>Once after a very hard time at a cover song I tried my shot at music theory >with my guitarist and found after a while that when I found a tune I would >fall more and more often into the same kind of sounds and 'chords'. >So I don't think that theory is the solution for Kenn de Mello here.
Kenn didn't need a solution. But take a look at what you're saying, once more. To quote you "we're all different." Example: Theory HAS helped me write. Perhaps what you were doing was following the cycle of 5ths progression, and not using any rules for substitution, but in any case, theory can be used to create ANY chord progression. More importantly, it helps you understand why a chord progression "works" at times.
>> It doesn't necessarily make you more creative, but it may, considering >>that you'll have more colors on your palette. What it WON'T do is make you >>more proficient on your instrument. Theory is one of the head games in >>music. But all of your musical ideas start at your head, even if you think >>you're just noodling. > >No again : Imagination gives you ALL the colors.
So then, naturally, you can improvise like Gary Willis or Jimmy Johnson, right? Okay, maybe that's not fair... maybe you shouldn't have to have the technique to defend your point. But you should be able to understand every damn note of a Gary Willis solo, and at a slow tempo, should be able to play over the same changes. Imagination is not unlocked without work, in one form or another. This is why writing gets better as you go along. This is why when you give a kid a guitar, one month later he's not writing great music... imagination isn't just "there." You develop it by assimilating life experiences, and by recognizing and utilizing chance encounters, etc. I can imagine I'm Allan Holdsworth. I can imagine I understand how to play over changes like he does. But as of yet, I can't actually PLAY OVER CHANGES like he does. I have to learn more about his note choice, by analyzing more of his music, first. Music Theory!
>> Knowing more facilitates DOING more. > >It's not a question of knowing more or not : >Theory let's you learn tricks,
WHAT?! No... taking lessons from Eddie Van Halen helps you learn "tricks." Peeking into David Copperfield's studio window while he practices making severed human heads disappear helps you learn "tricks." Theory is not applicable to a single instrument. It is unrelated to technical facility. Tricks are what you do because you don't know theory and need to fill space. :) Some people build whole careers on tricks. More power to em!
- Chris
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:30:05 -0600 (CST) From: Brian D Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Theory (It's music, stop bitchin'!) Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0003140528500.22537-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Chris Ptacek wrote:
> Imagination is not unlocked without work, in one form or another. This > is why writing gets better as you go along. This is why when you give a kid > a guitar, one month later he's not writing great music... imagination isn't > just "there." You develop it by assimilating life experiences, and by > recognizing and utilizing chance encounters, etc. I can imagine I'm Allan > Holdsworth. I can imagine I understand how to play over changes like he > does. But as of yet, I can't actually PLAY OVER CHANGES like he does. I > have to learn more about his note choice, by analyzing more of his music, > first. Music Theory!
I agree with you to a point, but this last part I don't get. Your Holdsworth example has nothing to do with imagination...it has to do with learning to imitate Holdsworth.
-Brian
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:45:30 -0300 From: alejandro.bedolla@schering.de To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5389 Message-ID: <C12568A2.0040F376.00@BE2314.schering.de>
<< If you want to seriously pursue playing and writing music, you shoul= d learn theory. Why? Because if you want to live in Spain, you'd better learn=
Spanish. -Fran/Banjoman >>
<<No offense, but that's a really bad analogy. One does NOT need to kno= w theory to play music or enjoy. One MUST speak Spanish in order to live in Spai= n since most people there speak Spanish. -Mike C.= >>
I read once that George Lynch didn=B4t made it with Ozzy, 'cause he did= n't know "theory"... and the guy knows how to play, and I think he has good=
stuff. Yngwie knows "all the theory there is to know" (according to his= own words) but the guy has no emotion, and most of his music sucks... I th= ink a little bit of spanish can help you to live in spain, but definately w= on't make you a spanish... - Alex B. =
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:52:23 +1100 From: mikel <mikel@alphalink.com.au> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: a short essay on theory Message-ID: <38CE27F7.F91DDC99@alphalink.com.au>
>Once AGAIN...
>WHAT THE FUCK DOES DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT THIS?????? >He just plainfully has absolutly NO talent whatsoever!!!
I think you should take your trolling ass to alt.dreamtheater because no one is convinced by your poseing (sp?).
> Repeat after me: "reading music DOES NOT equate to knowing theory". 99% of > high school band musicians have no problem reading music, but know NOTHING > about theory.
True. I play a lot of traditional jazz and classical music and know extensive theory but reading music is beyond me (i can do it but it takes forever).
> Just because you want to be serious about music, it doesn't mean you HAVE > to learn theory.
This is a very true. I teach guitar and I always ask my students 'Do you really want to know how to do this or are you just doing it because someone told you to?' Most of the time people say 'Yes, I would like to know it,' but not always. One of my students had played classical guitar for awhile and wanted to move into more creative rock and fusion music. He was having trouble using a pick though and found themselves having to go back and playing very simple pieces which was obviously frustrating. However their use of thumb as a 'pick' was very good so we said 'F**k it. Some people would kill to be able to play what you can play without a pick,' and since then we've moved into a whole lot of cool stuff. Suddenly you've turned another boring guitarist into a unique one with a whole different palette to work from. Sure he may not turn out to be a good studio musician, but hes already got a job as a computer programmer.
> Then the problem isn't your "extensive" theory knowledge. The problem is > you. Learning theory does NOT (at least, it shouldn't) give you a little > voice in your head that says, "Don't resolve that tritione that way!" or "Go > back and fix that V7/vi that you left unresolved!"
I think for most (if not all) people it does certainly hinder experimenting.
> and he's an amaxing SINGER, but an extremely limited musician. He's someone > who happens to be famous for making music, not because he's any good, but > just because people like it.
Since when has there been any other reason for a person being a good musician other than whether people like it or not?
> > learn the language. I mean, basically, I don't think a > person who doesn't know theory should be allowed to call > themselves a musician - it's just laziness not to learn > theory as it applies to what you're doing.
My god I've never seen so many prog-snobs in my life. You can't have expected not to get flamed for this comment? So Jeff Beck isnt a musician. What about Eddie Van Halen or Hendrix (sorry im a guitarist). What about the people who make electronic music. Most of them have little idea about theory. Thats the most stupidest comment ive ever heard. Im flabbergasted at your stupidity.
Take the main riff for Nirvana's "Lithium". The chords go E, G#, C#, A, C, D, B, D. So basically its very chromatic and makes no obvious sense theoretically. However, it sounds cool. It doesnt even sound harsh or jazzy. Now anyone with extensive theory knowledge would never have done something like that. They could have either derived it through hours of 'twisting' around theory but unlikely. Or else they would have simply not played it because a) its too simple b) they assume that its not going to sound good.
To conclude my essay, I would say yes theory can be very useful and it is essential if you want to be the type of musician who can play many styles and fit in in many circumstances, but if you can make good, original music without it (and many can) go for it! You will also be able to spend time experimenting with your instrument, developing your technique, having fun apart from music (an important aspect of any good musicians life) and earning money (which means more creative freedom). PS. Nothing against theory, I chose to learn it because i liked jazz/classical. PPS. Obviously everyone knows some theory even if its just that a major chord sounds happy and minor sounds sad, Im talking about sitting down and studying the full works.
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5390 **************************
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