YTSEJAM Digest 5650
Today's Topics:
1) RE: Burning CD-R's
by "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
2) RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
by "Todd O. Klindt, MCSE" <todd@klindt.org>
3) RE: Burning CD-R's
by "Todd O. Klindt, MCSE" <todd@klindt.org>
4) RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
by "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
5) Re: YTSEJAM DIGEST 5640
by Eric George <edgeorge@geneva.edu>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5649
by Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
7) RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
by Michael Kizer <mike@ivorygate.com>
8) *rude* fans at dt shows ...
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?fuci=F1os_asorey_julio?= <julio.fucios@rai.usc.es>
9) i bear napster's children
by "gloom gloom" <phairgirl@anada.net>
10) Re: *rude* fans at dt shows ...
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu>
11) musicians on the list
by "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
12) Re: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
by Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
13) Napster inc of puppets
by Jens Johansson <jens@panix.com>
14) Re: Napster inc of puppets
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:40:52 -0500
From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Burning CD-R's
Message-ID: <74ACE5A6CB89D3119E6F00609720274A01FC263F@ISDCRE00>
What kind of burner do you have? As long as you have plenty of space on
your hard drive to store the Wave files there should be no trouble.. I only
have 64MB of RAM as well and burn lots of CD's with my cheap little Memorex
2x2x24. Sounds like you may not have enough free room on your hard drive.
Also be sure to KILL any Virus program you have running and PAUSE the task
scheduler (icon down by the clock) and do a three-finger-salute
(Cntrl-Alt-Delete) and kill any suspicious programs that show up... I
always kill the "WinAmpA" process because it doesn't need to be running
while I burn CDs..
What program are you using to burn your CDs ? NERO is excellent. You can
do a web search for "Nero burning ROM" and find it (I don't have the URL
here at work..).
Be sure you let the computer run by itself when you burn your CD's so that
other programs do not access the HD while you are burning..
JM
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike and Susan Verstraete [SMTP:homewks@sound.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:12 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Burning CD-R's
>
>
> Has anyone burned a CD-R of "ACOS" ? I'm having trouble because the file
> is
> so big.(I've got 64 Meg RAM). I'm wondering if anyone has been
> successful.
>
> Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:53:46 -0500
From: "Todd O. Klindt, MCSE" <todd@klindt.org>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
Message-ID: <000c01c03db9$73156540$3464a8c0@klindt.org>
I normally lurk, but I'll chime in here. Jens, you're in the band
Stratovarius, correct? I've been on this list for five years and I've heard
all kinds of people say wonderful things about your band. But, CDs are $15
a shot, and I've bought stuff before that people raved about and I ended up
not liking, so I never bought any of your CDs. Then Napster came out. I
thought, "What the hell. I'll see what this Stratovarius sounds like". I
downloaded "Abyss of your Eyes". Holy Shit!! That song rocks in ways I
can't explain. It still gives me shivers. Now what do I do? I download
some more songs. They're all this good. Outstanding!! I burn a couple
MP3s to a CD and take them over to Musicland where my buddy Jared works. I
tell him he has got to get me Visions for sure and anything else from
Stratovarius that he can. He orders them. Then he listens to it. His ass
is kicked too. So now, Stratovarius always has a few CDs on an end-cap at
the Musicland (now Sam Goody) in Ames Iowa. Jared and I have both bought
every CD you guys have, and he figures he's probably sold another couple
hundred more off the endcap and by word of mouth. All because of that mean
ol' Napster.
I understand this isn't always the case, but when the RIAA themselves, using
numbers that they've compiled, say that CD sales and profits have improved
every year since things like MP3s and Napster came along, I just can't feel
sorry for them. I would guess that more money in CD sales means more money
for the artists, so I can't feel sorry for them either. I have about 20 gig
of MP3s on my server at home. I would guess that all but about 2 gig are
things that I legally own. Not everyone is out to steal music and put
musicians out of work.
My two cents,
tk
p.s. Jens, you guys rock!
-----Original Message-----
]From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
Jens Johansson
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 1:35 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
On 01:25 AM 10/18/00 -0700, you wrote:
> So here is a shining example where Napster has generated revenue for
> the RIAA pricks. Revenue otherwise lost... Incidentally, myself and the
> other two recipients of the illegal home-brew CDs, had possession of the
> commercial US version within five minutes of the LEGAL release time!
> Those arrogant RIAA pricks should realize that people will pay for
> QUALITY entertainment.
FWIW I think Napster should be shut down. (Perhaps ranted here before, don't
remember)
Were I a bit less thoughtful I could state: "Those arrogant thieves of
intellectual property should realize they are stealing the bread out of the
mouths of musicians". But I think the issue is complex and requires a
nuanced approach. All I know is that the "Napster way" is not a good one.
("Napster way" defined in my mind as: third party uses public database of
local copies of infringing material -- essentially to attract site hits.) I
for one hope the US courts will speak clearly in favor of copyright. I say
this not as some 19-year old copyleft freak who probably never even heard of
Stallman, but as a wizened veteran of this thing called "the music
industry", and I feel I have a fairly accurate picture of the nature of that
beast (and two cauliflower ears to prove it, figuratively speaking), of the
history of copyright law, and of music comsumers in general. And I am a bit
worried.
Especially people who are interested in "narrower" music should be concerned
about the threat of erosion of musical intellectual property rights.
I think I typed a bunch of anti-napster rhetoric before (summarised from
posts to the SX list) at http://www.panix.com/~jens/parse.cgi/napster.par --
not that anyone cares probably. Sigh. (Hey, the economy is booming! Money is
way overrated in this glorious economy. Here's the bag of money, here's the
shovel, there's the furnace. Get to work!! We need those eyeballs on our
site! And let's get William Shatner to do some ads with jokes about Mozart
dying in poverty while we're at it.)
> Maybe the RIAA has a legitimate bitch. I can't see the average "Pink" fan
> giving a fuck about sound quality... And it's all about money, right?
Yes. All about money. That is essentially correct.
By the way, on a more positive note, "V" just got a *10* review in Rock
Hard!! :)
(That's 10 out of 10...)
Jens
====
sleepless and listening to the rain in santiago de chile
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:57:51 -0500
From: "Todd O. Klindt, MCSE" <todd@klindt.org>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Burning CD-R's
Message-ID: <001101c03dba$09401560$3464a8c0@klindt.org>
Mike,
Specifically what problems are you having? Are you trying to; a)make a copy
of the ACOS cd from another CD? b)Trying to make a copy of the ACOS from
WAV files on your hard drive? c) Make a copy of the ACOS CD from MP3s? or
d) Something that I haven't asked?
If you need software, let me know. I use Easy CD Creator 4.0 most of the
time. It's pretty easy to use. I could get you a copy of you liked.
tk
-----Original Message-----
]From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
Mike and Susan Verstraete
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:12 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Burning CD-R's
Has anyone burned a CD-R of "ACOS" ? I'm having trouble because the file is
so big.(I've got 64 Meg RAM). I'm wondering if anyone has been successful.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:03:44 -0500
From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
Message-ID: <74ACE5A6CB89D3119E6F00609720274A01FC2643@ISDCRE00>
Todd, your message is excellent and drives the point home that Napster is
NOT Evil. Many of us will find new music samples and find new bands by
using these songs to find what we like! Great post.
JM
-----Original Message-----
> From: Todd O. Klindt, MCSE [SMTP:todd@klindt.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:08 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
>
>
> I normally lurk, but I'll chime in here. Jens, you're in the band
> Stratovarius, correct? I've been on this list for five years and I've
> heard
> all kinds of people say wonderful things about your band. But, CDs are
> $15
> a shot, and I've bought stuff before that people raved about and I ended
> up
> not liking, so I never bought any of your CDs. Then Napster came out. I
> thought, "What the hell. I'll see what this Stratovarius sounds like". I
> downloaded "Abyss of your Eyes". Holy Shit!! That song rocks in ways I
> can't explain. It still gives me shivers. Now what do I do? I download
> some more songs. They're all this good. Outstanding!! I burn a couple
> MP3s to a CD and take them over to Musicland where my buddy Jared works.
> I
> tell him he has got to get me Visions for sure and anything else from
> Stratovarius that he can. He orders them. Then he listens to it. His
> ass
> is kicked too. So now, Stratovarius always has a few CDs on an end-cap at
> the Musicland (now Sam Goody) in Ames Iowa. Jared and I have both bought
> every CD you guys have, and he figures he's probably sold another couple
> hundred more off the endcap and by word of mouth. All because of that
> mean
> ol' Napster.
>
> I understand this isn't always the case, but when the RIAA themselves,
> using
> numbers that they've compiled, say that CD sales and profits have improved
> every year since things like MP3s and Napster came along, I just can't
> feel
> sorry for them. I would guess that more money in CD sales means more
> money
> for the artists, so I can't feel sorry for them either. I have about 20
> gig
> of MP3s on my server at home. I would guess that all but about 2 gig are
> things that I legally own. Not everyone is out to steal music and put
> musicians out of work.
>
> My two cents,
> tk
>
> p.s. Jens, you guys rock!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> ]From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
> Jens Johansson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 1:35 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
>
>
>
> On 01:25 AM 10/18/00 -0700, you wrote:
>
> > So here is a shining example where Napster has generated revenue for
> > the RIAA pricks. Revenue otherwise lost... Incidentally, myself and the
> > other two recipients of the illegal home-brew CDs, had possession of the
> > commercial US version within five minutes of the LEGAL release time!
> > Those arrogant RIAA pricks should realize that people will pay for
> > QUALITY entertainment.
>
> FWIW I think Napster should be shut down. (Perhaps ranted here before,
> don't
> remember)
>
> Were I a bit less thoughtful I could state: "Those arrogant thieves of
> intellectual property should realize they are stealing the bread out of
> the
> mouths of musicians". But I think the issue is complex and requires a
> nuanced approach. All I know is that the "Napster way" is not a good one.
> ("Napster way" defined in my mind as: third party uses public database of
> local copies of infringing material -- essentially to attract site hits.)
> I
> for one hope the US courts will speak clearly in favor of copyright. I say
> this not as some 19-year old copyleft freak who probably never even heard
> of
> Stallman, but as a wizened veteran of this thing called "the music
> industry", and I feel I have a fairly accurate picture of the nature of
> that
> beast (and two cauliflower ears to prove it, figuratively speaking), of
> the
> history of copyright law, and of music comsumers in general. And I am a
> bit
> worried.
>
> Especially people who are interested in "narrower" music should be
> concerned
> about the threat of erosion of musical intellectual property rights.
>
> I think I typed a bunch of anti-napster rhetoric before (summarised from
> posts to the SX list) at http://www.panix.com/~jens/parse.cgi/napster.par
> --
> not that anyone cares probably. Sigh. (Hey, the economy is booming! Money
> is
> way overrated in this glorious economy. Here's the bag of money, here's
> the
> shovel, there's the furnace. Get to work!! We need those eyeballs on our
> site! And let's get William Shatner to do some ads with jokes about Mozart
> dying in poverty while we're at it.)
>
> > Maybe the RIAA has a legitimate bitch. I can't see the average "Pink"
> fan
> > giving a fuck about sound quality... And it's all about money, right?
>
> Yes. All about money. That is essentially correct.
>
> By the way, on a more positive note, "V" just got a *10* review in Rock
> Hard!! :)
>
> (That's 10 out of 10...)
>
> Jens
> ====
> sleepless and listening to the rain in santiago de chile
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:25:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric George <edgeorge@geneva.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM DIGEST 5640
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001024100920.1261A-100000@sparcy.geneva.edu>
hey there jammers,
i know that this thread has kinda' died by now (catching up on old
jams here), but i'll mention this just as a little piece `o music trivia.
in response to the remark made about Vai releasing "P&W" to make more
money & further his guitar god status, i'm pretty sure we've all decided
that this was not the case. i respect mr. Vai, and don't doubt his
integrity as a musician.
however, someone else remarked that he had no reason to be
motivated in this way because he could've made more money by remaining
with Whitesnake. not true. the one album that he did record & tour with
"Slip of the Tongue" is a phenominal Whitesnake album (some of the riffs
are unbelievable, and terrific songwriting), but the bottom line as to why
he was involved on that album was to fill the gap left when primary
guitarist/songwriter adrian vandenberg was injured & left unable to play
during the recording of the album. for those of you that have the album,
check the fine print underneath the list of players. then go check
whitesnake's homepage on the net. vai was brought in to stand in for
vandenberg, and then given room to throw some of his own influence in to
the solos. but he never wrote any of the music. check on
http://www.vai.com he doesn't even like mentioning that he was involved
in the project.
so, to make a short story really long, vai & whitesnake did not
mesh personality wise. vai wrote "P&W" while with whitesnake, and during
the following tour, took every opportunity to plug his new solo effort
rather than discuss his current gig. personalities clashed, especially
between coverdale & vai, and vai left to pursue the very wonderful &
inspiring musical path that we all have come to love.
if any of this ever surfaces on rock & roll jepordy, you all will
know the answers now.
-Ryften
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:43:20 -0500
From: Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5649
Message-ID: <20001024.094341.-19917.6.Kurt.Hampton@juno.com>
<Has anyone burned a CD-R of "ACOS" ? I'm having trouble because the file
is
so big.(I've got 64 Meg RAM). I'm wondering if anyone has been
successful.>
You need to upgrade your ram if you can. the way I burn, I temp move it
to the hardrive, then after that done burn it on a recordable. Right now
Im burning the dc show (Dennis Ill send you stuff thursday if you are
wondering :) I have no problems doing this, though Ive never made a 23
minute wav file either, so I dunno.
I can't belive he did the mercy fuck thing. That's killer.
Well folks its over. SFAM tour officially closed the other night. I saw
em 3 times, and the tour, the experience will last a lifetime. I met tons
of you guys (Pellaz you are still man ) He helped me out in Atlanta,
Kevin L. if you are still on this you rule too.
The band: going home for a MUCH DESERVED BREAK. Mike if you still read
these:
THANK YOU!!!!
This past year has been the best, all the shows, the boots, the crazy
antics, the mp.com board its all great and it alays gets better.
Just my thoughts :)
Kurt
NP-Erotomania
ytsekurt on AOL instant messenger
Trade page-www.geocities.com/Kurt_labrie/Startpage.html
"Shut the f*ck up. Don't make me come down there and kick your f*cking
ass"
-James Labrie 4/16/97
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:14:52 -0700
From: Michael Kizer <mike@ivorygate.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001024074541.02330030@mail.phoenixdsl.com>
At 07:15 AM 10/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Todd O. Klindt, MCSE [SMTP:todd@klindt.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:08 AM
> > sorry for them. I would guess that more money in CD sales means more
> > money
> > for the artists, so I can't feel sorry for them either. I have about 20
> > gig
> > of MP3s on my server at home. I would guess that all but about 2 gig are
> > things that I legally own. Not everyone is out to steal music and put
> > musicians out of work.
Um, not to pick nits but... but you are saying that only 10% of
your MP3s are illegal? Is that like saying I own 10 cars, but only stole
one of them? ;-)
I think though that most people miss the point of Jens' post...
main point: no incentive for people to pursue music in niche markets. If
N'Sync sell 500 million copies of their latest album, a few thousand sales
that don't happen due to people just downloading the whole album on MP3 is
not going to matter all that much. But to a band that maybe only sells
20,000 units for example, a few hundred sales that don't occur because of
MP3s floating around does significantly damage.
Another main point that I think Jens has is that individuals
trading files amongst themselves to preview new artists and such is fine
(and has always existed and always will). Prior to Napster (and other
services like that), trading had to take place at a fairly low volume
(tapes being mailed back and forth, or even individuals downloading files
from FTP sites). The problem is that things like Napster facilitate high
volume and fairly easy exchange of files from millions of users (and you
can bet that if you get a large number of people together on anything, some
are going to be unscrupulous)... and you can bet that the venture
capitalists backing Napster right now are definitely shooting for some kind
of pay-for-download scheme to turn this into a cash cow.
If everyone who used Napster tried to think about the artists
behind the MP3s that they are downloading, maybe there wouldn't be so much
indiscriminate theft. I mean, I even don't feel right about buying used CDs
for bands that I already know I like (I will buy the occasional used disc
to try out a group I've never really heard before).
~Michael Kizer < mike@ivorygate.com > < ICQ # 2070538 >
"Enter ivory gates through midnight skies..." ~ http://www.ivorygate.com
>>> Fates Warning ~ Island In The Stream <<<
>>> Dream Theater and Kevin Moore "Unofficial" Song Books <<<
>>> Underground Internet Radio at: http://www.ytseradio.com <<<
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:47:29 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?fuci=F1os_asorey_julio?= <julio.fucios@rai.usc.es>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: *rude* fans at dt shows ...
Message-ID: <82E8057D7B40D411B3200000C0CA7DE0A85E6E@correorai.usc.es>
hi!
after reading a post talking about a dt gig in london, i would like to say
some words ... even i don't understand and i don't speak english english a
lot, i think that jaime was criticisming (uh, does this word exists?) the
people who got crazy at a rock concert and do crazy things ... personally, i
consider myself as a very reflexive and mature 21 years old guy (and every
people i know agree...) but in my fist (and only) dt concert, last july,
23rd i got completely crazy. i don't know what happened to me, but when i
see them on stage, i started to shout as a teen girl on a britney spears
concert, really very nervous, and i didn't stop until five minutes after the
end of the music, when i realized that they won't play another one ... i
believe that i could be disturbing people at my side, and i apologize for
it, but at those moments i was very excited (as i have never been in my life
.) and i couldn't do anything, even, as i said one minute ago, i am very
mature and reflexive.
and one last question from a newbie at the ytsejam ... the guy who posts
under the name of jens johansson ... is he the authentic "jens johansson"
?????????
byes!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:22:50 -0500
From: "gloom gloom" <phairgirl@anada.net>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: i bear napster's children
Message-ID: <000501c03dd6$a7039760$c02d0b18@dubuq1.ia.home.com>
> FWIW I think Napster should be shut down. (Perhaps ranted here
> before, don't remember)
I agree with you on many wide points, mainly simply the way Napster works in
general. However, without Napster I would be bored out of my mind and my
musical tastes might be quite different right now. Here's why:
For the most part, I buy CDs if I like the mp3s that I download. This has
caused me to do insane things like order from amazon.de without knowing a
lick of german (it was quite fun) just to get four CDs for a decent price
(damn that Blümchen, why does she have to be so CUTE???). Also, I've
managed to preview a lot of stuff that I would've just bought outright and
THEN decided that I hate, which rules. I wish Napster would've been around
in 1992 when I was buying almost every band I saw in Metal Edge magazine
(gah).
Without Napster, I wouldn't have spent that $50 on eBay on the "Lie" single
just so I would have a decent copy of "Eve." Hah, why am I arguing in favor
of Napster after a thing like that... heh :)
Seriously though, the nice thing about Napster being as big as it is right
now is that there's a lot of obscure stuff on it, and I've really been able
to expand my palette. Without Napster, I wouldn't be such a freak over The
Gathering, that's for sure.
I do realize I am the exception rather than the rule, but nonetheless,
Napster has turned me into one of those people who likes damned near
everything, music-wise. Last night I decided I should figure out why
everyone raves about The Beach Boys' _Pet Sounds_, so I downloaded it. Now
I know. Now I'm spending even more money at columbiahouse.com :)
I don't want to turn the 'jam into another insane Napster rant, honestly
(SEE I HAD DT CONTENT IN THERE AT LEAST ONCE... heh), but hey, there's not
much else going on lately...
--summer
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
aNAda e'zine: http://anada.net
crazy triangles: http://crazytriangle.com
e-mail: phairgirl@anada.net
AIM: demonicpikachu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:48:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: *rude* fans at dt shows ...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010241245300.34593-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] fuci=F1os asorey julio wrote:
> and one last question from a newbie at the ytsejam ... the guy who
> posts under the name of jens johansson ... is he the authentic "jens
> johansson" ?????????
FYI, yes, it is the "real" Jens. There are several rather successful
musicians on this list, such as Jens, Bernd... Um, that's all I can think
of right now. :)
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Coutermarsh
a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu
http://cout.dhs.org/
Cloak on IRC
ICQ: 2513441
-------------------------------------------------
FOR SALE: One parachute, used but unopened. One
small stain. Going VERY cheap.
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:09:49 -0500
From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: musicians on the list
Message-ID: <74ACE5A6CB89D3119E6F00609720274A01FC2651@ISDCRE00>
Marcel is on here, too.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Coutermarsh [SMTP:a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 11:54 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: *rude* fans at dt shows ...
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] fuci=F1os asorey julio wrote:
>
> > and one last question from a newbie at the ytsejam ... the guy who
> > posts under the name of jens johansson ... is he the authentic "jens
> > johansson" ?????????
>
> FYI, yes, it is the "real" Jens. There are several rather successful
> musicians on this list, such as Jens, Bernd... Um, that's all I can think
> of right now. :)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:54:46 +0000
From: Brad Plumb <bplumb@pi-r-squared.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: [ Symphony X, ] and Napster
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20001024125446.00daf4e8@pi-r-squared.com>
>FWIW I think Napster should be shut down. (Perhaps ranted here before,
don't remember)
>
>Were I a bit less thoughtful I could state: "Those arrogant thieves of
intellectual property should realize they are stealing the bread out of the
mouths of musicians". But I think the issue is complex and requires a
nuanced approach. All I know is that the "Napster way" is not a good one.
("Napster way" defined in my mind as: third party uses public database of
local copies of infringing material -- essentially to attract site hits.) I
for one hope the US courts will speak clearly in favor of copyright. I say
this not as some 19-year old copyleft freak who probably never even heard of
Stallman, but as a wizened veteran of this thing called "the music
industry", and I feel I have a fairly accurate picture of the nature of that
beast (and two cauliflower ears to prove it, figuratively speaking), of the
history of copyright law, and of music comsumers in general. And I am a bit
worried.
>
>Especially people who are interested in "narrower" music should be
concerned about the threat of erosion of musical intellectual property rights.
>
>I think I typed a bunch of anti-napster rhetoric before (summarised from
posts to the SX list) at http://www.panix.com/~jens/parse.cgi/napster.par --
not that anyone cares probably. Sigh. (Hey, the economy is booming! Money is
way overrated in this glorious economy. Here's the bag of money, here's the
shovel, there's the furnace. Get to work!! We need those eyeballs on our
site! >And let's get William Shatner to do some ads with jokes about Mozart
dying in poverty while we're at it.)
ALright, after having read this post, and the rant at the posted URL, I
would state that this is the first valid argument against Napster that I
have seen; that being: Napster is making money off this shit. Let's forget
the issue of artists losing money for a minute, or the paranoia and evil
acts of the RIAA, or the money lust of Metallica, and look at one simple
black and white fact: Napster is taking songs which they do not own the
rights to, and making money off of them. I'm not so much concerned with
whether the artist is losing profit here, but that someone else is making
profit off their work (which is the same reason I hate the RIAA). This IS
piracy, even by my narrow definition.
However, with that said, I gotta be frank that I am somewhat of a believer
in free distribution (sorry Jens). The idea of free distribution has always
been around, but what Napster hit upon, imo, is not volume, but CONVENIENCE.
I can go on Napster and within a few minutes find a song that would have
taken me hours, or even days, to find by any other method. This is the
reason it's become so popular. Granted the sheer amount of music that's
being traded has a lot to do with that, but I really don't think most
Napster users are interested in mass piracy. For me, and most other people I
know, it's finding *that* song, or putting together *that* collection. We
wouldn't be buying the cd's for these things anyway. Most of the time, if I
have a lot of mp3's by a certain band or musician, it's stuff that's older
and harder to find (for instance, Jens, I would be more likely to have a
large collection of Yngwie mp3's than a large collection of Strato). I'd be
interested in knowing exactly what the royalty issues are in that case. I
realize the above is no justification, but I am attempting to illustrate the
idea that Napster, or free distribution in general, is not a large threat.
Let's keep going. The issue of niche music has been brought up, and I'm
going to take the ever-so-cliche position that MP3's (and yes, I know that
you're not opposed to the MP3 format, but to Napster) actually help niche
groups. Most people that would be interested in these bands are avid
collectors anyway, and are probably going to buy the cd. Niche groups are
never going to appeal to a wider audience, even with something like Napster,
they are always going to simply remain with their.... well to be redundant,
niche. What Napster does is make niche music more accessible, so that more
niche users than ever before can discover the same music (in the past it may
have been confined only to certain areas). In this case, the group is not
losing 200 sales, but GAINING 200 new fans, who will probably buy their next
cd, attend concerts, buy t-shirts etc. These people would not have heard of
the band otherwise. Anyway, the the actual high volume piracy that DOES go
on on Napster, is never involving niche groups but usually mainstream bands,
or dance club music. In the case of the Britney Spears and Metallicas of the
world, these people are going to be selling a million copies of their cd
anyway. So what we have is a situation, as I see it, where noone is really
being hurt (except if, as Jens suggests, we enter a new reality where music
sales are based on web-site hits, in which case everyone will be required to
be like Britney Spears. But really... hasn't that already happened?).
All that aside, there is the issue of Napster itself, which I can now pretty
clearly see as an evil organization. In anime circles, we're all rabid about
getting the latest fansub, or ep of some new Japanese series free; but we go
crazy when anyone tries to make a profit off of it. If there were some form
of non-profit system out there, I'd be all for it. Just my two cents.
Palpatine
www.pi-r-squared.com/brad/
Co Founder of NARF: The North Houston Anime Resistance Force, and Historian
of Anime-no-kai
"There is nothing more pragmatic than idealism" -David Mamet
"With all its luck and all its danger
The war is dragging on a bit
Another hundred years or longer
The Common man won't benefit.
Filthy his food, no soap to shave him
The regiment steals half his pay.
But still a miracle may save him:
Tomorrow is another day!
The new year's come. The watchmen shout.
The thaw sets in. The dead remain.
Wherever life has not died out
It staggers to its feet again."
-Bertolt Brecht. Mother Courage and her Children
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:24:40 -0400
From: Jens Johansson <jens@panix.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Napster inc of puppets
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20001024152440.039c1680@localhost>
[Michael Kizer]
> and you can bet that the venture
> capitalists backing Napster right now are definitely shooting for some kind
> of pay-for-download scheme to turn this into a cash cow.
If they even are that farsighted. But make no mistake about it: they are not doing this as an altruistic service for mankind out of the goodness of their hearts.
> indiscriminate theft. I mean, I even don't feel right about buying used CDs
> for bands that I already know I like (I will buy the occasional used disc
> to try out a group I've never really heard before).
I personally have nothing against used CD sales, or MP3s, FWIW YMMV etcetc.
[Todd O. Klindt, MCSE]
> [partially snipped typical story]
> So now, Stratovarius always has a few CDs on an end-cap at
> the Musicland (now Sam Goody) in Ames Iowa. Jared and I have both bought
> every CD you guys have, and he figures he's probably sold another couple
> hundred more off the endcap and by word of mouth. All because of that mean
> ol' Napster.
It is a good argument, and one I have heard before. It is also similar to the argument that record companies sometimes make in regard to licensing with lower or no royalties (for instance: music clubs where the consumer can order the first 3 CDs for a dollar or something)
Nonetheless it does not convince me. From my point of view (and I say this with not an ounce of disrespect), which is as a somewhat perceptive person with 15 years in the battlefield at the "shit end of the stick", the issue is completely clear. And it's more of a long term issue than a few thousand Strato CDs (maybe I didn't make that clear).
I'm not implying that Napster proponents are not intelligent, alert and observant but there is something that I see here that you just don't see, call it a pattern, a hunch, an abstract idea. There's nothing really I can do about that. :) I can just hope that the Napster, inc. court case goes the way I think it should. Of course, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll just move on.
Oh, and thanks for the free promo work. :)
> I understand this isn't always the case, but when the RIAA themselves, using
> numbers that they've compiled, say that CD sales and profits have improved
> every year since things like MP3s and Napster came along, I just can't feel
> sorry for them.
Have they published any statistics about the cause of this aggregate sales increase? Correlation does not imply causation. Do the statistics perhaps have _anything_ to do with the current economic boom, rather than that braindead Napster entity, or with bandwidth trends?
> I would guess that more money in CD sales means more money
> for the artists, so I can't feel sorry for them either.
Correct. (And it means money for your friend Jared -- his store actually gets more money per CD than the manufacturer, the songwriters, and the performers combined. He's the guyy that _really_ should be worried.)
> I have about 20 gig
> of MP3s on my server at home. I would guess that all but about 2 gig are
> things that I legally own. Not everyone is out to steal music and put
> musicians out of work.
No, this is true. Not everyone.
To me, at the core of the Napster debate is the question whether copyright is a good or bad thing. If you're honest and not in opposition of copyright, this may seem very much like a straw man argument. But I take a somewhat dim view of people's honesty and willingness to part with money for intangible property if not forced to. (People IN GENERAL, OK? So, present company excluded then, hopefully?)
If music copyright is eroded in any way you can be _sure_ that in the end, any loss of revenue will be passed on in the usual fashion -- to the performers and writers. To me that is completely clear, and moreover not good. I know it's not "clear and not good" to a lot of people -- they either:
a) don't know what the hell I'm talking about ("copyright err I guess that's what it usually says after that little c with the ring around it"),
b) disagree fundamentally ("copyright is outdated, information wants to be free, look how well open source is working")
c) think CD prices are too high -- and feel that their personal opinion about CD prices / the RIAA / the current distribution chain / the majors / Lars Ulrichh should be what decides what (if any) the copyright for music should be.
Well. I've made 40-something records; I've been picked up, dropped and fondled by independent and major alike. I've been chewed up and spit out, hit the ground running, waiting for the next fight to start. I've roadied and schlepped, punched in and spliced, negotiated, hurried up and waited, promoted, and even had time to make some music in between; I've been praised, censored, deified, interviewed, filmed, flown and helicoptered, rescheduled, blown up by pyro, chastised, broadcast, bootlegged, hounded, glorified, demonized and exploited. Anyone else here ever show up at different city than your back line truck? You, over there, the whippersnapper in the green sweater with a decaf latte and a fresh printout of the GNU manifesto: what's the statutory mechanical rate in the US as of today? Can you tell me why? And how many airports have you been hung over in, exactly? :)
Anyway, I'm willing to listen if anyone can come up with a good argument explaining why "Napster is good" -- BUT -- in order to convince ME, such an argument might have to contain the following words and phrases:
Patrons and court composers, piano rolls, the 1905 copyright act, statutory licensing, patent law, 1976, NMPA, in-home bandwidth growth projections considering the differing data density in video and audio carriers and the much-heralded "Net/TV convergence", historical public apathy in regards to -- and erosion of -- copyrights, the meaning of the term "intellectual property", Mozart, bootlegging, vinyl versus acrylate, history of payola and fraud, niche music, pricing collusion and distribution cartels, work for hire, broadcast rights, home taping tax, SCMS, the Japanese CD distribution model, black holes, supersymmetry, the riddle of symbolic language, public key cryptography, Bell's theorem, the Aspect experiment, and the core nature of information from a quantum mechanical perspective.
OK, maybe the last seven can be skipped.. :)
Jens
====
blue skies in Chile today again but they closed the hall, dammit!
can someone please put a 4000-capacity Santiago rock venue on Napster?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Napster inc of puppets
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010241629410.81581-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Jens Johansson wrote:
> > I have about 20 gig of MP3s on my server at home. I would guess
> > that all but about 2 gig are things that I legally own. Not
> > everyone is out to steal music and put musicians out of work.
>
> No, this is true. Not everyone.
>
> To me, at the core of the Napster debate is the question whether
> copyright is a good or bad thing. If you're honest and not in
> opposition of copyright, this may seem very much like a straw man
> argument. But I take a somewhat dim view of people's honesty and
> willingness to part with money for intangible property if not forced
> to. (People IN GENERAL, OK? So, present company excluded then,
> hopefully?)
I see exactly what you mean here. There are a good number of people in
this world who do what they do because it's right. I have several MP3
albums on my computer that I do not own. However, I wholeheartedly intend
on purchasing them at some point (and in the meantime I know that there
are a lot of you who feel that I'm wrong for doing so, but that's not
really the argument here). One thing I have noticed, though, especially
after working as a "residential computer consultant" for my dormitory last
year and working directly with students, is that most of the college
students I worked with didn't give a shit as to whether they paid for
their music. At ALL. And most of them told me so in as many words.
I would say that the majority of people who use Napster just don't care.
I only get on Napster when I'm looking for a song or composition that I
can't find locally. This includes mostly stuff like minimalist composers
(guys, I mean this honestly, Steve Reich and John Adams are AWESOME -- go
listen to some of their stuff!), comedians, rare songs, new samples of
bands I haven't heard, etc. But I know far too many people who have hard
drives full of MP3s (my brother is one of them) and don't EVER buy a CD
anymore. Most of the time I heard an argument about how much money their
favorite musician (note, this was--most of the time--a boy band, extremely
popular metal/pop group, etc.) and that they wouldn't miss the revenue.
As a future commercial musician and composer, I am deeply worried about
the current trend in attitudes toward copyright holders and the disregard
that is shown to them. Too many people just don't realize that not only
is a musical composition intellectual property, it is an ART FORM, and to
distribute it in any form (like a movie, or book, or any other mass-
produced form of art) requires that the artist get some kind of
compensation. It's just the right thing to do.
> c) think CD prices are too high -- and feel that their personal
> opinion about CD prices / the RIAA / the current distribution chain /
> the majors / Lars Ulrich should be what decides what (if any) the
> copyright for music should be.
The thing I never understood about this argument is that CDs DON'T cost
too much. Just because it costs 2 cents to make a CD doesn't mean that
you should only pay that much.
To clarify: Say that the only people who make money from an album are the
record label, the company who presses the CDs, the composer, the
performers (let's just assume for this example that the composer and the
performers aren't the same), the producers, and the store that sells the
album. Say that the performers and composer each get a dollar per album
sold, which is a rather optimistic amount, but hey, it's an example,
dammit. :) The CD pressers also get one dollar. The producers and the
record label each get two per album (which is probably a LOW
estimate). As Jens said, the record store gets more than all of those put
together, so let's say for the sake of argument that they get five dollars
per album sold.
Right there, without sales tax :) you've got a total of ten dollars for a
CD. Obviously my figures are not correct and are just an estimate of how
I interpret the way the business works, which is probably way off. But as
an example it sure goes to show exactly how CDs cost so damn much. It's
NOT too much, when you consider all the people that get paid from that
little piece of 2 cent plastic.
> And how many airports have you been hung over in, exactly? :)
Jens, I'm going to offer you a chance to re-word yourself because you're
not a native English-speaker, right? Did you really mean "hung over" or
did you mean "held over?" :D
> Anyway, I'm willing to listen if anyone can come up with a good
> argument explaining why "Napster is good"
Okay, how about this: "Why Napster is good IN THEORY." Napster was
ideally designed as a method for people to share music of theirs in a
convenient and broad-based fashion. It would allow unknown composers,
such as myself, to distribute our music in order to get it listened to
more often. A great idea in theory, but impossible to implement in
practice.
> -- BUT -- in order to convince ME, such an argument might have to
> contain the following words and phrases:
>
> Patrons and court composers, piano rolls, the 1905 copyright act,
> statutory licensing, patent law, 1976, NMPA, in-home bandwidth growth
> projections considering the differing data density in video and audio
> carriers and the much-heralded "Net/TV convergence", historical public
> apathy in regards to -- and erosion of -- copyrights, the meaning of
> the term "intellectual property", Mozart, bootlegging, vinyl versus
> acrylate, history of payola and fraud, niche music, pricing collusion
> and distribution cartels, work for hire, broadcast rights, home taping
> tax, SCMS, the Japanese CD distribution model, black holes,
> supersymmetry, the riddle of symbolic language, public key
> cryptography, Bell's theorem, the Aspect experiment, and the core
> nature of information from a quantum mechanical perspective.
>
> OK, maybe the last seven can be skipped.. :)
I already included quite a few of those in this email already :)
And here's a little food for thought, people: Do you realize that Mozart's
Requiem (by the way, you can download a performance of my choir singing
the Mozart Requiem last April -- with me singing the bass solo -- at
http://cout.dhs.org/mozart_requiem/) was commissioned by a nobleman who
then took the completed work (which was completed by Mozart's student,
Sussmayr, after Mozart's death left it unfinished) and performed it for
his wife's memorial service as his OWN work? Not to mention the fact that
MANY of J.S. Bach's works have been stolen by other composers and used as
their own.
This is what happens without copyright legislation.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Coutermarsh
a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu
http://cout.dhs.org/
Cloak on IRC
ICQ: 2513441
-------------------------------------------------
Procrastinators UNITE... tomorrow.
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 5650
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