YTSEJAM Digest 5770
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Kev Moore on bass... / (not re:)Pain of Salvation
by "Timo Virkkala" <wt@nic.fi>
2) Re: Napster Woes
by "Dave Grimm" <davegrimm@qwest.net>
3) Birthday Wishes
by Jax <jax@ytseradio.com>
4) My $.02 on Napster
by "Dark Majesty" <shadow_majesty@hotmail.com>
5) re: Kitchen Freaks
by Chris Oates <aspect-lists@tinagh.org>
6) Re: Napster + replicators...
by schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
7) RE: My $.02 on Napster
by "Nick Bogovich" <bogie@schliz.com>
8) RE: My $.02 on Napsta
by "Tim Detman" <td4235@ship.edu>
9) Re: Napster + replicators...
by "Dr. Mosh" <drkhoe@xinu.irv.concentric.net>
10) Re: Napster + replicators...
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@enchantize.com>
11) Re: Napstah! Buh-bye!
by "Paul Tadday" <dreamryche@bigpond.com>
12) sales statistics
by "Matthew Tedesco" <Matthew.Tedesco@colorado.edu>
13) napter - the big picture
by Joseph Bissonnette <jabisson@cdr.wisc.edu>
14) Albums via Napster...
by schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
15) Re: Albums via Napster...
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mauricio_Mart=EDnez?= <al769526@mail.mty.itesm.mx>
16) A Short Bogie Response
by "Chris Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com>
17) Re: sales statistics
by "Paul Tadday" <dreamryche@bigpond.com>
18) Re: A Short Bogie Response
by "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@enchantize.com>
19) RE:YTSEJAM digest 5768
by charles.farrell@tesco.net
20) Re: Kitchen Freaks
by Jan Melander <jan.melander@got.wmdata.se>
21) question for you napster haters
by "Niklas Thorpenberg" <031-7049409@telia.com>
22) Heck with Napster....
by "Paul W. Cashman" <pellaz@atl.mediaone.net>
23) RE: My $.02 on Napster
by "Dark Majesty" <shadow_majesty@hotmail.com>
24) Re: My $.02 on Napster
by Graham Borland <graham@picsel.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:15:21 +0200
From: "Timo Virkkala" <wt@nic.fi>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Kev Moore on bass... / (not re:)Pain of Salvation
Message-ID: <008001c0978d$8cdf4800$13e126d4@pentium>
Sorry, my bad. I guess I should take out the liners every time I think I
remember something. Whoopsie. =)
Well, anyway, great music, no matter whoever played the bass =)
-WT-
NP: Pain of Salvation - Perfect Element I
This is GRRREAT! I won this in the DPRP annual poll & competition. Or
whatever it was. =)
Anyway, I had only heard the name a couple of times, and had no
preconception whatsoever of the music, so I kind of started off clean. The
first track scared me a bit, but after a few listens I've started to like
that too. Whee.. Me wants more. And me wants the liner notes too - I got the
promo version, so just a cardboard sleeve with no liners...
----- Original Message -----
]From: "Michael Kizer" <mike@ivorygate.com>
> Gotta read those liner notes...
> DAFR: Joey Vera bass (on 3,4,5) & Moore
> and I had heard some time ago from a good source that Kev does indeed have
> a bass guitar lying around. ;-)
>
> >I'm pretty sure Kev didn't play any bass on that album. Or any real bass,
> >anyway. It was Joey Vera of Fates Warning who was the bassist on Dead Air
> >for Radios. Joey Vera's and Mark Zonder's playing on the album was one of
> >the things I loved (and still love) on it. =)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:43:29 -0600
From: "Dave Grimm" <davegrimm@qwest.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Napster Woes
Message-ID: <NEBBKFBCALHCMIKHIAKLIEFACBAA.davegrimm@qwest.net>
Anyway, I - apparently unlike anyone else on the jam, am not made of
$money$. I refuse to purchase one SUV at a cost of $35,000 (In the example
of a decent foreign model). Hell, I refuse to buy a nice European model at
that price. Outrageous. I was going to take my girlfriend to a Drive-In
for V-Day, but the dealer (Came-lot's Chevrolet) looked at me like I had
leprosy when I suggested he should just give me one off his lot. Yeah
right. Fuck off Came-lot! Car manufacturers are screwing the public, and
they know it. The way I see it, the dealer makes all the money leaving
nothing for the manufacturer or other OEM's...no wait...I think I mean the
manufacturer makes everything and the dealer gets nothing...oh hell..the
only important thing is: I CAN'T AFFORD ONE So...I'm getting myself a
slim-jim and taking which ever one I feel like in the street. Take THAT you
stupid car manufacturers!
Anyway, that's about all for now, but tune in next week when I explain the
paradox between my having more business sense than every band, record
company, manufacturer and distributor in the world, yet I can't afford to
spend $17.99 on a CD. In the mean time...I'll be lubed for ya!
-corvin
np - Yngwie Malmsteen "All I want is Everything (for free)"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:16:41 -0500
From: Jax <jax@ytseradio.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Birthday Wishes
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20010215171455.00afeb90@mail.ytseradio.com>
Just wanted to wish Mark *Itchy* Bredius a happy belated birthday..hope you
had a great day, Itchy!
Jax <--retreating back to lurk-dom
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:19:44 -0600
From: "Dark Majesty" <shadow_majesty@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: My $.02 on Napster
Message-ID: <F195qCO3vJ0ApIWXzNb0000b868@hotmail.com>
Hello all:
Well, I could have just kept quiet on the Napster thing, but since I had to
read a bunch of 4-page posts I may as well add my bit. I am totally against
Napster, basically on the grounds of the "original" argument from Lars, that
they took "I Disappear," in unfinished form, and distributed it, in its
entirety, for free. If Napster only had the little 30-second clips, or put
the whole song up without the ability to burn it onto a CD or store it in
any way permanently, or charged a dollar or two per song, and also had the
artist's permission to have the songs in the first place, then I would be
all for it. But distributing a song in its entirety, without permission,
and depriving the artist of any profit is nothing short of crookery.
I am probably one of the few people that just go out and buy stuff on word
of mouth. I don't think I have ever bought an album that I don't like. I
bought Jon Anderson's 'Olias Of Sunhillow,' Fates' 'APSoG', SB's 'V', SymX's
'V', Nightwish's 'Oceanborn', Blind Guardian's 'Somewhere Far Beyond', and a
couple hundred other CDs on word of mouth alone. But I would never download
an entire album, or even any part of an album, because it would be too
tempting to say, "Ah, the band doesn't need any money anyway, and I don't
have the money to buy the album, so I'll just download the whole thing!" As
far as the "lost" songs, I found 'Olias Of Sunhillow,' a long-out-of-print
import album, laying around in a local CD store for $14 or $17, I can't
remember which. And of course, there's always CDnow and such, you can find
anything if you are willing to look.
Well, I've attempted to blow a few hole's in the "Napster is good" argument,
and I've turned this into one of those long posts that I hate so much. I am
personally glad that Napster is being shut down, and I hope that all the
similar programs are also terminated. I'm not against listening to songs on
the 'Net, I'm just against downloading entire songs with intent of burning
them onto CDs or storing them in your hard drive and never buying any CDs
(and yes, I am against burning CDs in any form).
Well, I'll either get flamed or you all will eventually realize how stupid
this whole thing is (which I prove by sending this HUGE letter?) and drop
it. Only time will tell...
Now playing: Back Porch Mary - 'Gather' (find THAT on Napster!)
Later all,
--96
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:42:56 -0800
From: Chris Oates <aspect-lists@tinagh.org>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: re: Kitchen Freaks
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215144112.03aa14e8@pop.tinagh.org>
At 10:23 AM 2/15/2001, you wrote:
>Disagreements with the political content of the lyrics
>aside, they also suffer a bit from the Yngwie school
>of "not quite proper" English at times. Only an issue
>if you're a picky bastard. ;o)
I've come to be used to that. Even Pain of Salvation can get a bit awkward
at times. And it's not so much disagreeing with Freak Kitchen's lyrics
(though I do much of the time) it's just how blatant and simple the message
is. I disagree with much of the basic premise of PoS "One Hour by the
Concrete Lake" but still find it one of my favorite albums.
~Chris
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:03:53 -0500 (EST)
From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Napster + replicators...
Message-ID: <m14TXRJ-000IR1C@mail.interzone.com>
>>
>> So napster is soon to be no more. I'd just like to
>>know why musicians think they are somehow better than authors. I don't
>>hear any writers whining about their books being put into libraries.
>
>The main issue is about being able to create a
>suitable duplicate. Still a pain in the rear to
>photocopy the whole book (but if you want to read
>online, it's a whole 'nother story, and yes, they'll
>whine).
>
>Not to go too far into nerd territory, but just
>imagine if they could create a "Star Trek" style
>replicator? You'd hear whining from everyone!
>
>"Computer, replicate me a 56" screen SONY HDTV."
>
>On the extra large ACME Replicator: "Computer, create
>me a 2001 Corvette Convertable."
>
The really cool part of the above statement is that the replicator
is slowly coming into existence. They're called 3D Printers, and they
build 3-dimensional objects by depositing a material (such as plastic
or metal) layer by layer. There are also other approaches (such as
'curing' a liquid layer by layer). The US Army wants to use it to
create replacement vehicle parts in remote regions. They're working
on being able to combine materials to create more complex objects.
Anyway, it will be really interesting in the future when you
want to borrow your neighbor's lawnmower and instead he tells you to
just Napster over the CAD plans and print your own. :-) It's going
to have serious implications for personal property. OK, that's
a *long* way off, if it ever happens, but damn it's cool to think
about.
Check out these web sites for some info on it, or search
Yahoo for 3D printing:
http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns225821
www.zcorp.com
www.toybuilders.com
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:46:42 -0500
From: "Nick Bogovich" <bogie@schliz.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: My $.02 on Napster
Message-ID: <D42A162CC83A7F40AD63994DE54129C61F41@arcadia.schliz.com>
One misconception people seem to have about Napster is that the group of
individuals that comprise the company Napster is allowing these media
files to reside on their servers, or better yet, that these people are
the ones populating the Napster database with these media files. "I
Disappear" from the M:I2 soundtrack appeared on behalf of some Napster
user. The company didn't state on its homepage, "Hey everyone, we were
able to grab a pre-released version of the new Metallica song. Come
check it out!" Sure, the source of the leak used Napster as a means to
distribute the media. But Napster themselves did not actively
participate in the distrubtion of that song.
On the basis of your argument against Napster, does that mean that every
time someone uses a gun to kill someone else, you think the gun
manufacturer should be sued? Yes, I agree that Napster is passively
contributing to the fact that laws are being broken, but are they the
ones to blame that their product is being used unethically? They aren't
actively distributing the media files. The people who run the Napster
client and share their files are the ones who are taking part in that.
They are the ones saying, "Here, I think it's okay for you to download
these songs from me." So, are these the people to blame? What if these
users who are sharing their files believe Napster can be used ethically?
What if they believe that by allowing others to download music from them
that they are ultimately helping the artists? Sure, these might be big
"if"s, but you also seem to be one who would be pro-Napster if it wasn't
abused. Correct?
-bogie
-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.--
nick bogovich
http://www.schliz.com/
you have been schlizzed
-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:02:10 -0800
From: "Tim Detman" <td4235@ship.edu>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: My $.02 on Napsta
Message-ID: <NEBBILNCCLHOPKPBGNNNKEPHCAAA.td4235@ship.edu>
> On the basis of your argument against Napster, does that mean that every
> time someone uses a gun to kill someone else, you think the gun
> manufacturer should be sued?
imagine if you could kill people over the internet with napster! who would
be at fault then? or maybe if you could just hunt deer with napster. that
would be kind of cool.
on a dream theater note...
i need to see some scenes from new york, and i need it now! anybody heard
anything lately?
-tim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:21:50 -0800
From: "Dr. Mosh" <drkhoe@xinu.irv.concentric.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Napster + replicators...
Message-ID: <20010215162150.A14012@xinu.irv.concentric.net>
On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:03:32PM -0800, Steve Chew wrote:
>
> Anyway, it will be really interesting in the future when you
> want to borrow your neighbor's lawnmower and instead he tells you to
> just Napster over the CAD plans and print your own. :-) It's going
> to have serious implications for personal property. OK, that's
> a *long* way off, if it ever happens, but damn it's cool to think
> about.
Nah, that's nothing, it'll be interesting when we have Clonester.
"Hmm... my neighbor has a nice looking wife, I just need a lock
of hair..."
-The Doc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:10:47 -0700
From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@enchantize.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Napster + replicators...
Message-ID: <004a01c097bd$b06c3af0$e34153d8@washburn>
STOP SNEDING ME THIS GARBAGE MAIL!!! I WNAT OFF THIS LISTY!!!!!!! ;)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:39:54 +1100
From: "Paul Tadday" <dreamryche@bigpond.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Napstah! Buh-bye!
Message-ID: <004201c097c1$c1700440$b08436cb@PaulTadday>
----- Original Message -----
]From: Todd O. Klindt, MCSE <todd@klindt.org>
> This argument goes both ways. I would like to see the Big 5 provide any
> proof that Napster has cost them a single penny.
>
> Both sides only have anecdotes and no facts to back them up. The
> Anti-Napster side has "I know this guy that hasn't bought a CD in a year.
> He just downloads them all and burns the CD himself". The Pro-Napster
side
> has "I know this guy that's bought 50 CDs this year alone because of music
> he heard using Napster". I don't think either side can prove anything.
Well I for one have used Napster quite a bit over the last 12 months or so
and I have spent more on cd's in that year than what I have in the past!
37 cd's all up...
No wonder I'm so damn broke!!!
--Paul.
(can anyone lend me a fiver?)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:15:32 -0700
From: "Matthew Tedesco" <Matthew.Tedesco@colorado.edu>
To: "Ytsejam List" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: sales statistics
Message-ID: <000701c097d7$7d2651c0$9c598a80@fx1f00b>
> From: "Chris Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com>
> > It's funny how Napster has over 500 million users yet the sales of cd's
> > worldwide has risen 6% in the last year!!
> > *things that make you go "hmmmmmm"*
>
> I challenge you to show how the two are statistically or factually
> related. I would like to know how that's related to Napster and not a
> booming economy. It's a point that so many Napster users love to dangle
and
> prance about, but I have yet to see the two points linked.
>
Oh, I dunno... I'm trying to be charitable here, but his point seems to have
*some* force on the face of it. The charge he's concerned with is the one
where the Napster critic complains about the effect of Napster on album
sales--the response, then, is that at least *some* empirical data suggest
that sales *aren't* hurting. Chris' idea is to push further here, and he's
right to, but consider where the burden of proof lies. It's the critic who
is pointing to the detrimental effect of Napster on record sales; the burden
then seems to be on the critic to offer some support of that complaint. So
these numbers, at the very least, press the critic of Napster that much
further.
It would be interesting to look a little deeper here. The claim here (which
may or may not be true) is that cd sales rose 6% last year. For the critic
of Napster to continue this particular objection with any real force, he
would have to show that this growth was substantially less than in other
years, or that the growth was less than could reasonably been expected, or
something along those lines. Perhaps a look at cd sales over several years,
with particular attention to annual growth? If there is reason to think
that the number should have been greater than 6%, then perhaps the critic of
Napster would be able to forcefully continue this particular objection.
Worth noting is that this point only refers to one particular objection to
Napster. Other objections, particularly along moral lines, seem to me more
promising.
If anyone had easy access to those numbers, it'd be interesting to see how
that played out. I would look them up, but I frankly have no interest in
defending Napster. I just felt a little bad for this poor guy who just had
his lunch handed to him by Mr. Ptacek. =)
Best,
Matt Tedesco
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:40:08 -0600
From: Joseph Bissonnette <jabisson@cdr.wisc.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: napter - the big picture
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010215232758.00a7c630@cdr.wisc.edu>
It's interesting how much peer-to-peer technology == napster in these
discussions. If napster does indeed get shut down (and there is plenty of
room for further appeals and legal action) it would be a blow to the big
labels. They were just on the verge of commercializing it (see the deal
with BMG), and turning it into an asset. Whatever happens to napster, P2P
will not go away. Gnutella was a miserable failure, but this does NOT mean
that decentralized P2P can't work. There are some very good projects in
development now that deal with the issues that hamstrung Gnutella. If
Napster goes commercial, they probably bring a substantial amount of the 50
million users with them, and the major labels win. If Napster goes out of
business there is a huge void where a decentralized and completely
unregulatable system could step in.
The point being that the key to this whole music swapping issue is P2P
networking. Napster, despite its popularity, is not the be-all, end-all of
P2P. The appeal and feasibility of the model has certainly been
demonstrated, and over the next 2-5 years there will be a flood of new
software to take advantage of that. So you can go around in circles as
long as you want as to the morality of napster, but the fact is that free
P2P file-swapping is here to stay. Rail against the evils of it until
you're blue in the face, millions of people will still use it. Artists,
promoters, and distributors are simply going to have to find ways to live
with that.
joe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:09:02 -0500 (EST)
From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Albums via Napster...
Message-ID: <m14Te4l-000IR1C@mail.interzone.com>
>
>> good if you want a couple of hit songs from a band. Most people don't
>>keep whole albums in their library. It is also a pain to download full CDs.
>
> You are the FIRST person I've met who used Napster and didn't go for
>full albums. You're ALSO the ONLY person I've ever heard complain about the
>inconvenience of DLing music for free, from your chair instead of going out
>and buying it. "Oh no, I have to go to a web page and keep track of what
>I'm going to steal! This sucks." Pardon me if I fail to shed any tears.
>
Maybe you don't know the right people, or maybe it's just me. ;)
I don't know anyone who uses Napster to download full albums. Most of
the people I know who use Napster use it to find a song that they
suddenly feel like hearing or to listen to other songs by a band they
heard on the radio. Sometimes that translates to CD sales and sometimes
it doesn't depending on how well they like the other songs.
>> Anyway, I - apparently unlike anyone else on the jam, am not made of
>> $money$.
>
> Well, you don't seem to SPEND your money on music, so I'd have to be
>left with the conclusion that you have plenty of it lying around.
>
Your logic is astounding. ;)
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:27:34 -0600
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mauricio_Mart=EDnez?= <al769526@mail.mty.itesm.mx>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Albums via Napster...
Message-ID: <006e01c097e1$8d5704e0$f7a8f094@compaq.net.mx>
>
> >> Anyway, I - apparently unlike anyone else on the jam, am not made of
> >> $money$.
> >
> > Well, you don't seem to SPEND your money on music, so I'd have to be
> >left with the conclusion that you have plenty of it lying around.
> >
> Your logic is astounding. ;)
>
> Steve
>
LOL!!!!!!!! Oh man, there have been numerous debates like this one over the
years here in the jam! Gotta watch what you write, because someone is gonna
notice a little crack here and there, and is gonna blow the hell out of it!!
Mauricio
"Dont be surprised when a crack in the ice appears under you feet"
Waters...The Thin Ice
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:36:26 -0600
From: "Chris Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: A Short Bogie Response
Message-ID: <001901c097e2$caa3a820$4cb5fea9@madstation>
I'm not going to clutter up the jam and go point by point through Bogie's
mail, because I know that his posts were long... and you all know how long
my full response will be. I will start by offering an apology to
Chris/Corvin, because I WAS being a smart ass. But I stand by my argument
totally. I tend to actually get UPSET when I see certain pro-napster
arguments. We're all human. You don't like it, tough. :) Bogie: I will
be mailing you personally, to address this more fully.
> returned are of greater variety. You'll also see that more albums are
> grouped together which means that people usually go for the more
> successful artists by the album.
I hate it when you, and other people decide who does and who doesn't
"need the money." Nick, do you believe that one hit wonders make more money
per cd than Britney Spears? Do you believe that they make more money per
album that Dream Theater? Most one hit wonders are on major labels, and the
hits come from debut albums. Those folks are not making much, if any money
per disc. The bottom line is YOU don't have the right to say who does and
who doesn't deserve to be paid for their work. Do I have the right to tell
you you don't deserve to be paid for your computer work? No. Why do you
have the right to say who should get paid for their MUSIC work? It's a job.
It's a shit paying job.
> has anyone done research on people who have graduated from these
> campuses, gone out and gotten a decent paying job to see if they
> started buying CDs? I would put my money on it that these people
> begin to start buying the music
A friend's employer (about 150 people) banned Napster from their network
last week, because employees saturated 2 T1s. Logs showed that 95% of the
bandwidth was Napster. This company pays an average salary over $50K. I
can give you the name of the company in private, but suffice it to say it's
a web development group. I haven't done the research and neither have you,
Nick. Your language is just as harsh as mine, so down, down, off your
pedastal. No insult or grudge on my part, Nick, but you're JUST as arrogant
and pompous as I am in your post, and just as ready to toss needless
colorful insults. The high horse must go.
> Because distribution to the US is so difficult outside the two major
> music markets (that being the US and Europe), the costs of getting
> a CD from those small random labels is very high.
> And this goes back to my argument above
You tell me how many albums or MP3s you DL from bands who are not from
the US or Europe. Japanese bands that are on major US labels don't count.
I'd LOVE to see some facts here, rather than the rhetoric. And THEN we can
address the fact that, by your logic, these bands from Thailand etc, get
100% screwed by Napster, instead of only partially screwed..
> Napster is a source of strong, free promotion.
Again I ask, why should people *HAVE TO* make their music available for
free at cd quality? Free promotion implies that it will help sales. Though
YOU may buy the cds, I do not believe that anywhere NEAR a majority do.
Every program, every interview on every station, including polls by
ZDTV/TechTV show that people will not pay when they can have it for free.
> Let's say 1000 people download an MP3 album of some unknown artist.
I am stopping you here, because your numbers are TOTALLY random and non
sequitir. Do you need me to make up a similar meaningless equation to
"prove" myself right? No matter what order of magnitude you enter, it's
STILL random and meaningless. And you're totally skating the issue, which
is an ethical question and not a dollar amount.
> You Napster haters will probably hate whatever the Big 5
> come up with even more
Even IF I granted that, here's a little factoid to think about:
At least we could CHOOSE independent, and not use the Big 5. Your
savior Napster offers no similar choice.
And in the end, that's what it's all about. A musician should be able
to CHOOSE his path, and CHOOSE what he wants to give away, and what he wants
to save, in hopes of making a living.
Sorry this was longer than intended.
- Chris
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:48:13 +1100
From: "Paul Tadday" <dreamryche@bigpond.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: sales statistics
Message-ID: <000601c097e4$7435e280$048336cb@PaulTadday>
I was just quoting a reference from an article in a newspaper here which was
defending neither side of the argument but instead putting forwards the
facts for each side. Ask them for their source if you wish to be a real
smart arse about it! I on the other hand couldn't give a rat's arse about it
past this point. There's too many other more important things going on in
life than to be bothered worrying about who's opinion is right and who's is
wrong. At the end of the day there is no black and white argument when it
comes to Napster. I'm done giving a shit about this topic already!
--Paul.
----- Original Message -----
]From: Matthew Tedesco <Matthew.Tedesco@colorado.edu>
> If anyone had easy access to those numbers, it'd be interesting to see how
> that played out. I would look them up, but I frankly have no interest in
> defending Napster. I just felt a little bad for this poor guy who just
had
> his lunch handed to him by Mr. Ptacek. =)
>
> Best,
> Matt Tedesco
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:07:27 -0700
From: "Korg Ecksthrey" <korgx3@enchantize.com>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: A Short Bogie Response
Message-ID: <001101c097e7$221fc1c0$2b4153d8@washburn>
> per disc. The bottom line is YOU don't have the right to say who does and
> who doesn't deserve to be paid for their work.
What? You're supposed to get paid to work? What's the point of socialism,
then? Damn you Ptacek! My EYES!!! MY EYES!!!!!
-- KorgX3's eyes.------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:05:55 +0000 From: charles.farrell@tesco.net To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: RE:YTSEJAM digest 5768 Message-ID: <200102160755.XAA06682@fugazi.torchsong.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:23:43 -0800 ]From: "Trevor Hoit" <thoit@winstar.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: bonus cd/ rent 2cd
> The cd is the only reason I am a member. All the info > in the mags is horrible dated by the time you get it > (no offense to the publishers) thanks to this list > and the DT website. I have a feeling membership will > go way down, once the bonus cds stop.
Quite possibly. I have to agree with you that the content is dated, but then the content is also limited, in that it appears to be the same people writing all the time - maybe its not their fault, maybe they didn't get much in the way of contributions from the other members and maybe the sections on bootlegs, CD reviews (mainly of other artists) etc could be replaced by some DT content ... if it was available.
I have to admit that even though I'll probably drop out of the 'Theater of Dreams' fanclub when the new CD finally arrives, I'll certainly carry on subscribing to the French Club because their magazine is packed with articles from fans and contains a lot of articles which haven't appeared elsewhere. It is always an interesting read, whereas it takes generally less than an hour to read the fresh info in 'Theater of Dreams' before it is filed away. Maybe the other non-english language fanzines are also full of articles contributed by the fans - I hope so.
So maybe the solution to the content of 'Theater of Dreams' is for more fans to contribute stuff (that they haven't already posted to the list or a message board), eh? If it doesn't have the CD to help it sell, then it is going to need a replacement USP (Unique Selling Point).
Charlie
_________________________________________________ The simple way to read all your emails at ThatWeb http://www.thatweb.com
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:17:11 +0100 From: Jan Melander <jan.melander@got.wmdata.se> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Kitchen Freaks Message-ID: <B6B2A097.1A9E%jan.melander@got.wmdata.se>
on 01-02-15 05.53, Brian Hansen at bhansen10@yahoo.com wrote:
> Chris Oates <aspect-lists@tinagh.org> wrote about > Freak Kitchen: > >> Good music. Reminds me of the early Galactic > Cowboys >> stuff. Too bad about the lyrics. > > Agreed. Music good, good vocals, lyrics lacking.
Well, I think they have quite good lyrics, OK they are often straight to the point but mostly done with a tongue-in-the-cheek approach. The lyrics on the latest CD is quite dark but on the older material often quite crazy and not as serious as they sometimes seems. It's quite interesting to read IA's comments on each lyric on their website. (www.freakkitchen.com, yes I know I have plugged 'em enough...)
>> Is it just me or is anybody else tired of the > complete lack of subtlety >> in "social commentary" lyrics? I've had enough of > "World BAD! Angst >> GOOD!" to last me a lifetime. > > Disagreements with the political content of the lyrics > aside, they also suffer a bit from the Yngwie school > of "not quite proper" English at times. Only an issue > if you're a picky bastard. ;o) >
I agree, I even bothers me a little, though English is not my native language, but I can live with that.
Cheers, Janne
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Jan Melander, WM-data jan.melander@got.wmdata.se =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= #define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:12:00 +0100 From: "Niklas Thorpenberg" <031-7049409@telia.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: question for you napster haters Message-ID: <049b01c09800$e771f100$f97641d5@NiklasThorpenberg>
Why are some of you getting so upset about this whole Napster thing? I = mean, no one has been able to prove that Napster hurts either musicians = or record companies.
Nik
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:21:36 -0500 From: "Paul W. Cashman" <pellaz@atl.mediaone.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Heck with Napster.... Message-ID: <3A8CFF30.9FB@atl.mediaone.net>
Heck with the Napster debate..... It's these people who post
"Well-said, _________!"
..and then quote the whole rest of the original message -- 70 lines worth! -- who pose the real threat to society...or at least, those of us who read the Jam in digest-mode....
-- +--- Paul W. Cashman, pellaz@atl.mediaone.net ICQ 4151223 ----+ | Website: http://people.atl.mediaone.net/pellaz/ | | or www.paulcashman.com :) | +---------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:35:20 -0600 From: "Dark Majesty" <shadow_majesty@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: RE: My $.02 on Napster Message-ID: <F172WerOc0Ne0PaLI9m00007119@hotmail.com>
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 at 15:59:59 -0800 (PST), "Nick Bogovich" <bogie@schliz.com> wrote:
>>Sure, the source of the leak used Napster as a means to distribute the media. But Napster themselves did not actively participate in the distrubtion of that song.<<
But they did keep it on their site, or server, or whatever Napster is, so they were still responsible for the distribution.
>>On the basis of your argument against Napster, does that mean that every time someone uses a gun to kill someone else, you think the gun manufacturer should be sued?<<
It's 5 in the morning, and I don't really see how this is related to my argument at all.
>>Sure, these might be big "if"s, but you also seem to be one who would be pro-Napster if it wasn't abused. Correct?<<
Um, did you catch ANY of my post? I am entirely opposed to Napster, and all other forms of downloading songs with intent of burning them on to CDs or keeping them permanently on your hard drive, as well as burning CDs at all. Even if it wasn't abused, which I seriously doubt could happen in our beautifully moral-lacking society, I would be against it.
--96 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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Date: 16 Feb 2001 11:47:14 +0000 From: Graham Borland <graham@picsel.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: My $.02 on Napster Message-ID: <861ysyu9x9.fsf@picsel.com>
"Dark Majesty" <shadow_majesty@hotmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 at 15:59:59 -0800 (PST), > "Nick Bogovich" <bogie@schliz.com> wrote: > > >>Sure, the source of the leak used Napster as a means to > distribute the media. But Napster themselves did not actively > participate in the distrubtion of that song.<< > > But they did keep it on their site,
No they didn't.
> or server,
No they didn't.
> or whatever Napster is, so they were still responsible for the > distribution.
They provide a distribution mechanism, just like the Royal Mail in the UK, or the US Postal Service (whatever it's called) provide a way for you to physically distribute stolen CDs or illegal material if you choose to. That doesn't make them responsible for it.
The fact that some of their users store, and make available, stolen or unauthorised material on their (the users) own computers is not in any way Napster's fault.
I find that most people who are opposed to Napster simply have no clue about how it works.
-- Graham Borland Picsel Technologies Ltd graham@picsel.com Glasgow, Scotland
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5770 **************************
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