YTSEJAM Digest 6708
Today's Topics:
1) Request: "You Not Me" MP3
by HadesRaze@aol.com
2) TOT - 1st impressions
by Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
3) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
4) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
5) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
6) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
7) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by Brian Hayden <bhayden@umn.edu>
8) RE: They had big shoes to fill.
by "Niall Connaughton" <ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
9) RE: They had big shoes to fill.
by Brian Hayden <bhayden@umn.edu>
10) Re: TOT after 12 Listens
by "Zachary Gemmill" <Zachary.Gemmill@nsc.com>
11) Re: They had big shoes to fill.
by Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:06:40 -0500
From: HadesRaze@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Request: "You Not Me" MP3
Message-ID: <40D984DE.786C7070.023EBECF@aol.com>
Request: "You Not Me" MP3
That's from a radio edit CD...I've got it on-hand. AIM me at "hadesraze" if you'd like it...I'll dig it up.
I bought two copies of OT. =D I set it at tied for second with I&W. SFaM cannot be beat, and I still don't see how anyone couldn't consider it their best.
-Lee
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:36:28 +0000
From: Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: TOT - 1st impressions
Message-ID: <20031116173628.GA16187@brain.pulsesol.com>
So finally it came in the post. I'm still bed-ridden with flu, so it's
been a perfect time to play a little Championship Manager 4 and listen
to TOT through headphones(*).
I've got through about five listens so far, nowhere near enough for any
particularly in-depth comments. Actually, it's been a pleasure to
listen to the album without worrying about analysing and comparing it.
Just let the music flood into my brain.
I think it's great from start to finish, and I think it has potential
to grow a lot more, once I get into the nuances. It is a progression.
It still sounds like DT, but isn't a noticable return to any "old"
sound. There are some really grandiose 6DOIT-esque parts that fit in
so well with the riffage.
The "rap" bits that people have been complaining about aren't even that
rap, and they are so short that they are almost irrelevant.
As far as Petrucci's solos being more shreddy goes, I'm the last person
in the world to like that kind of playing, but he just does it better.
Laugh if you want, but I think that when JP shreds, every note counts.
The guitar melody around the chorus of This Dying Soul is gorgeous.
I get the feeling that there are masses of TGP references in that song,
not just the obvious riff or two.
Lastly, if there is still any activity around here in a couple of weeks,
I think there will be more in-depth stuff to discuss on the album than
appears at first glance.
T
(*) Highly recommended, there's a fair bit of textural stuff going on
that could be easy to miss with speakers.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:41:14 +0000
From: Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <20031116174114.GB16187@brain.pulsesol.com>
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:10:41PM -0800, Snarncymbl@aol.com wrote:
> Everyone has a right to their own opinion but I feel your being too hard on
> Dream Theater. I like the change in pace and I like the darkness to it. I mean,
> when your that good you have some MIGHTY shoes to fill. If anything I think
> that they make each and everyone of they're CD's TOO good and that makes it
> difficult to beat but they do it. And I commend them. Being a band that has to
> try to outdo they're last album is something no other band has problems with. If
> you dont like this album, then mabey you dont have an open mind to what DT
> wants to do. Let them change, they will Always be Dream Theater. No matter how
> heavy.
>
> Art Fernandez
>
I agree with this. I've never known a band to get so harshly
criticised.
At the end of the day, I'm not looking for every album to have more
notes and more chops, and make my jaw drop by playing a melody from song
3 again in song 9, but ONE OCTAVE HIGHER!!! Or having a bit where the
bass is in 5/4, and the drums in 17/18. :P
They've got nothing left to prove. Just some good songs will do me,
thanks.
T
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:54:55 -0500
From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <004701c3ac6a$be35bed0$9b00a8c0@mizz>
--Boundary_(ID_6H6TwHtrVqbTYDY7N2MCgw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Come on, there's no such thing as 17/18, silly boy :P
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Gelberg
To: Multiple recipients of list
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:10:41PM -0800, Snarncymbl@aol.com wrote:
> Everyone has a right to their own opinion but I feel your being too hard on
> Dream Theater. I like the change in pace and I like the darkness to it. I mean,
> when your that good you have some MIGHTY shoes to fill. If anything I think
> that they make each and everyone of they're CD's TOO good and that makes it
> difficult to beat but they do it. And I commend them. Being a band that has to
> try to outdo they're last album is something no other band has problems with. If
> you dont like this album, then mabey you dont have an open mind to what DT
> wants to do. Let them change, they will Always be Dream Theater. No matter how
> heavy.
>
> Art Fernandez
>
I agree with this. I've never known a band to get so harshly
criticised.
At the end of the day, I'm not looking for every album to have more
notes and more chops, and make my jaw drop by playing a melody from song
3 again in song 9, but ONE OCTAVE HIGHER!!! Or having a bit where the
bass is in 5/4, and the drums in 17/18. :P
They've got nothing left to prove. Just some good songs will do me,
thanks.
T
--Boundary_(ID_6H6TwHtrVqbTYDY7N2MCgw)
---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:09:44 -0500
From: "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <Law15-F956AiMUFRAyL0000f884@hotmail.com>
>From: Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
>Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
>Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:31:54 -0800 (PST)
>
>On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 06:10:41PM -0800, Snarncymbl@aol.com wrote:
> > Everyone has a right to their own opinion but I feel your being too hard
>on
> > Dream Theater. I like the change in pace and I like the darkness to it.
>I mean,
> > when your that good you have some MIGHTY shoes to fill. If anything I
>think
> > that they make each and everyone of they're CD's TOO good and that makes
>it
> > difficult to beat but they do it. And I commend them. Being a band that
>has to
> > try to outdo they're last album is something no other band has problems
>with. If
> > you dont like this album, then mabey you dont have an open mind to what
>DT
> > wants to do. Let them change, they will Always be Dream Theater. No
>matter how
> > heavy.
> >
> > Art Fernandez
> >
>
>I agree with this. I've never known a band to get so harshly
>criticised.
>
>At the end of the day, I'm not looking for every album to have more
>notes and more chops, and make my jaw drop by playing a melody from song
>3 again in song 9, but ONE OCTAVE HIGHER!!! Or having a bit where the
>bass is in 5/4, and the drums in 17/18. :P
>
>They've got nothing left to prove. Just some good songs will do me,
>thanks.
>
>T
Yeah some good songs would do me as well...that's the problem. These could
very well be some good songs buried under all this crud. This is a band
trying way too hard to impress and maybe they did impress people. I've seen
enough messages saying "this rocks" or something as clever, so I think the
moral here is if you say you are going to be metal and dig out all the
stereotypes...you'll be a success. I commend those folks like me who aren't
willing to blindly follow (here come the flames).
Rob
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:55:46 +0000
From: Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <20031116195546.GA16368@brain.pulsesol.com>
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 11:02:13AM -0800, Rob P wrote:
> Yeah some good songs would do me as well...that's the problem. These could
> very well be some good songs buried under all this crud. This is a band
Well something being good or not is always subjective. I think most of
the material is good, you don't. Not sure what crud you are referring
to.
> trying way too hard to impress and maybe they did impress people.
It's in their blood to impress. There are a lot of bands who don't try
to impress, you could try listening to them.
> I've seen
> enough messages saying "this rocks" or something as clever, so I think the
> moral here is if you say you are going to be metal and dig out all the
> stereotypes...you'll be a success. I commend those folks like me who aren't
> willing to blindly follow (here come the flames).
So anyone who agrees with you is commended (lucky people!), and anyone
who doesn't is not only "following", but blindly to boot.
T
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:39:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Hayden <bhayden@umn.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0311161432070.27261-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
> > trying way too hard to impress and maybe they did impress people.
>
> It's in their blood to impress. There are a lot of bands who don't try
> to impress, you could try listening to them.
You're playing fast and loose with the word "impress." There are a lot of
ways to impress... proving how fast you can play a scale or arpeggio is
only one of them. It was tired when Yngwie did it 20 years ago. It's not
any less so now that Petrucci is doing it with a heavier crunch. Portnoy
has become a parody of himself. His playing on OSI was the best thing he'd
done in years, because Moore and Matheos stood over his shoulder the
entire time saying, "Um. Could you please rein it in a little. You're
ruining the song with your showboating. Thanks." (Portnoy sounded
downright pissed about this whole process, which says plenty about him.
Apparently he can't swallow his ego long enough to take suggestion and
criticism when he's playing on *someone else's record*.)
> So anyone who agrees with you is commended (lucky people!), and anyone
> who doesn't is not only "following", but blindly to boot.
He didn't say anyone who doesn't agree is blindly following. Can you point
to where he said that?
Didn't think so.
Hey, if you like the over-the-top style, more power to ya. But by the time
you're 40, if you're still trying to prove how fast you can play or how
many polyrhythms you can jam into four measures there should at least be
some interesting themes developed (Paganini anyone?) and not just
straight-up wankery.
IMNSFHO.
-Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:15:15 +1100
From: "Niall Connaughton" <ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <OPEJJAPFDGDMCLAHLLIMMEPJDBAA.ytsejam@bigpond.net.au>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ytsejam@torchsong.com [mailto:ytsejam@torchsong.com]On Behalf Of
> Brian Hayden
> Sent: Monday, 17 November 2003 7:33 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill.
>
>
> has become a parody of himself. His playing on OSI was the best thing he'd
> done in years, because Moore and Matheos stood over his shoulder the
> entire time saying, "Um. Could you please rein it in a little. You're
> ruining the song with your showboating. Thanks." (Portnoy sounded
> downright pissed about this whole process, which says plenty about him.
> Apparently he can't swallow his ego long enough to take suggestion and
> criticism when he's playing on *someone else's record*.)
I'm curious to know where you got this from? I hadn't heard anything like
that.
People should remember that DT draws fans from backgrounds between death
metal and pop. A metal album will always draw a line through the fanbase
somewhere, just like TransAtlantic did. Imagine the ranting and raving if DT
did an album like TA. I think you can see MP trying to be Neal Morse on
6DOIT. The title song would have been a good 10 minute track too...
Niall
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:03:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Hayden <bhayden@umn.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: They had big shoes to fill.
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0311161551260.8470-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>
> I'm curious to know where you got this from? I hadn't heard anything like
> that.
Most of the interviews with Moore/Matheos/Portnoy after the release of the
album talk about this, with varying degrees in teh characterization of
Mike's attitude. It's often but not always tempered with something like
"but in the end I think he was glad that he tried something new." Or some
such. One sample (K is Kevin, J is Jim):
--- Mike mentioned in his studio diaries that this was the first time he really took direction in the studio. How did that go?K.- Can you try this? (folds arms and heaves a big sigh, both laugh)
J.- I think it was tough for him, he's used to being in control and doing things the way he wants but I think to his credit he took direction and he had a hard time with some of it but I think hes happy with the end result. ---
This one features Mike sounding pretty grumpy behind the PR-speak:
http://electricbasement.com/interview_osi_march2003.htm
etc.....
-Brian
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:40:25 -0800 From: "Zachary Gemmill" <Zachary.Gemmill@nsc.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: TOT after 12 Listens Message-ID: <OF4CE22FCF.606A711D-ON88256DE0.007C48FD-88256DE0.007C8C98@nsc.com>
<<SOC: This one everyone spent time looking at in the form of a bizzare notation. Some even took a crack at trying to guess what it would sound like. This is to DT what Orion was to Metallica. It is musical, but not all over the place, it has nice groove, and is well thought out. I think that the thing I like the best is that thematically this song stands on it's own 8 legs and does not borrow from the other songs on the disk.>>
Actually, I does, from Vacant. I think both songs go together nicely, though.
Zach
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 01:20:30 +0000 From: Antony Gelberg <antony@antgel.co.uk> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: They had big shoes to fill. Message-ID: <20031117012030.GB16368@brain.pulsesol.com>
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 12:32:53PM -0800, Brian Hayden wrote: > > > trying way too hard to impress and maybe they did impress people. > > > > It's in their blood to impress. There are a lot of bands who don't try > > to impress, you could try listening to them. > > You're playing fast and loose with the word "impress." There are a lot of > ways to impress... proving how fast you can play a scale or arpeggio is > only one of them. It was tired when Yngwie did it 20 years ago. It's not > any less so now that Petrucci is doing it with a heavier crunch. Portnoy > has become a parody of himself. His playing on OSI was the best thing he'd > done in years, because Moore and Matheos stood over his shoulder the > entire time saying, "Um. Could you please rein it in a little. You're > ruining the song with your showboating. Thanks." (Portnoy sounded > downright pissed about this whole process, which says plenty about him. > Apparently he can't swallow his ego long enough to take suggestion and > criticism when he's playing on *someone else's record*.)
My point was that it's not a bad thing to try and impress. I think his playing on TA was the best thing he's played on in years. OSI was ok, but TA is where he found the _groove_.
> > So anyone who agrees with you is commended (lucky people!), and anyone > > who doesn't is not only "following", but blindly to boot. > > He didn't say anyone who doesn't agree is blindly following. Can you point > to where he said that? > > Didn't think so.
Please read the post I was replying to. I refuse to get involved in nit-picking.
> Hey, if you like the over-the-top style, more power to ya. But by the time > you're 40, if you're still trying to prove how fast you can play or how > many polyrhythms you can jam into four measures there should at least be > some interesting themes developed (Paganini anyone?) and not just > straight-up wankery.
That's the thing - I don't like most prog-metal wankery. I consider DT to have a lot more class than that, and I don't think they are trying to prove anything. 6DOIT and FII were definitely examples of albums they have made where the technical aspect is toned down, so it's not as if the wankery has been at the forefront of every album.
T
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 6708 ************************** === Contributions to ytsejam: ytsejam@torchsong.com === === Send requests to: ytsejam-request@torchsong.com === === More information at: http://www.dreamt.org/local/ytsejam.php === === Brought by the ghost of ytsejam@arastar.coms past === === Reach the owner of this list at: ytsejam-owner@torchsong.com ===
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