YTSEJAM Digest 1084
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Please Help Me...
by "Robert Quezada" <rquezada@monmouth.com>
2) HELP: European suggestions needed
by "Hitchcock's Other Eye" <ancl@freenet.scri.fsu.edu>
3) Concert info needed
by jrunde@glenqcy.glenayre.com (James Runde)
4) Dream Theater vs Nine Inch Nails???
by Rob Weychert <weyc9212@kutztown.edu>
5) NIN/DT debate.
by "MR. THE ESQUILAX" <YYSD@grove.iup.edu>
6) New Threads?
by as459@ctcdbs.ctc.cummins.com (A G Stiles)
7) More NIN
by "Dan R. Licon" <yama@ecst.csuchico.edu>
8) Re: Dream Theater vs. Nine Inch Nails
by Corporate Community Relations <buckley@powdml.ENET.dec.com>
9) Re: Bahr's number thing... (NBM/DTC)
by "Daniel James Temmesfeld" <S1133627@cedarnet.cedarville.edu>
10) Re: Please Help Me...(NO DT CONTENT)
by "Greg \"Big Brother\" Lee" <greg@aix.can.ibm.com>
11) Re: NIN with DT
by mrkizer@CCGATE.HAC.COM
12) Re: japan shows?
by "Jonathan Byrne" <RRI02@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>
13) Re: Please Help Me...
by Ken Bibb <kbibb@qualcomm.com>
14) Nin vs DT, part 1
by Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
15) Nin vs DT, part 2
by Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
16) Nin vs DT, part 3
by Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
17) Frehley/Criss tour?
by dneff@maaco.com (David Neff)
18) Re: Dream Theater vs. nine inch nails
by SaVeur <jjens@gmu.edu>
19) old video with CD
by EMRST2@vms.cis.pitt.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:49:53 +0000
From: "Robert Quezada" <rquezada@monmouth.com>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Please Help Me...
Message-ID: <199510271556.LAA09524@shell.monmouth.com>
> Another thing, EVERY DAY I LOG ON WITH AT LEAST SIX DIGESTS.
> COULD WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF THE LIST PLEASE SLOW THEM THE FUCK
> DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO THE HELL HAS TIME TO READ THROUGH
> THEM ALL???!! I HOPE THE PEOPLE ON THIS LIST HAVE LIVES OUTSIDE OF DREAM
> THEATER. I SURE DO. IF ANYONE AGREES WITH ME, WOULD YOU KINDLY POST
> A SIMILAR MESSAGE. MAYBE THEN SOMETHING WILL CHANGE. YOU TRY TO GET OUT
> SO MANY, I WOULD ASSUME IN AN ATTEMPT TO THUROUGHLY INFORM US, BUT WHAT
> ENDS UP HAPPENING(IN MY CASE) IS THAT I END UP DELETING THEM AND I AM
> THEN LESS INFORMED AS A RESULT. IT BACKFIRES!!! SO WOULD YOU KINDLY
> SLOW THEM DOWN(TWO A DAY AT THE MOST) SO THAT WE CAN ALL BE THUROUGHLY
> INFORMED WITHOUT MISSING A beat. Thanks.
woah..... caps lock.
I can see you're mad, but can you use lowercase? It makes it A LOT
easier to read.
Let me ask you something. If the server that sends the digest form
doesn't send all of them, wouldn't it get backed up after a few days?
Have you tried non-digest mode? I switched to it because of the
multiple 'jams I used to get. It allows me to easily find the
letters I want to read and delete the ones I didn't. I don't
remember how to switch to it -- hopefully, someone else does.
rq
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:55:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Hitchcock's Other Eye" <ancl@freenet.scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: HELP: European suggestions needed
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9510271103.B14352-0100000@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu>
l/mail/postponed-mail/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Good day folks,
My parents are headed to Germany and the Netherlands soon, and it
occured to me to ask them to pick up something music related while they
will be there. Is there anything available there (CD's, videos, posters,
whatever) that could be obtained there, that would otherwise require
paying alot more for an import here?
All suggestions gladly recieved,
Andrew
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Taylor & Here in
Al Capone slept here... Chicago
"One down, one to go..." "Where Cubs and Bears Roam Wild"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 11:13:11 CDT
From: jrunde@glenqcy.glenayre.com (James Runde)
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Concert info needed
Message-ID: <9510271613.AA14416@hendrix.glenqcy.glenayre.com>
Can someone e-mail me or post on how to get concert tickets again. I thought
I saved the message but now I can't find it.
thanx
--
James Runde - Glenayre One Quintron Way Quincy, IL 62301
jrunde@glenqcy.glenayre.com
Compassion -- that's the one thing no machine ever had. Maybe it's
the one thing that keeps men ahead of them. -- McCoy, stardate 4731.3
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:18:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Weychert <weyc9212@kutztown.edu>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Dream Theater vs Nine Inch Nails???
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.951027121703.12105A-100000@atlantic>
Hello all,
This is regarding a recent posting of Mike Meridith's regarding how
much better Dream Theater is than Nine Inch Nails...um...HELLO??!! Can
you say apples and...GOATS?? These are not even comparable art forms;
their intents are so different from each other--to say that one is better
than the other is just silly. I love Dream Theater and I love Nine Inch
Nails, each for different reasons.
I must address the comment something to the effect of, "they (NIN)
should learn how to play their instruments before they call themselves
musicians"--that's not just a LITTLE pompous...first of all, just because
a lot of their guitar, bass, drum, and other instrument sounds are a bit
rough does NOT mean that they can't play. Did it occur to you that the
sound you hear on the CD (whether or not <gasp!> YOU like it) is the
sound they were trying to achieve? Now I could be wrong, but I'm pretty
sure that they weren't trying to play like Dream Theater. Secondly, no,
they're probably not as technically proficient musicians as the DT guys--so?
A lot of people aren't, but that doesn't render them incapable of making
enjoyable music. You seem (notice I said _seem_, I'm not trying to judge
you based solely on this post) like another of these snobby "if it's not
prog-rock, if they can't play like fucking Mozart, it's shit" people that
I see quite a bit on this list. There's a LOT to appreciate about NIN,
whether or not you find the music appealing (I don't like Fates Warning,
but I can appreciate their talent...) and that's what I'll address next.
Okay, IMHO Trent Reznor is a gifted man. I think The Downward
Spiral is one of the best industrial albums in the history of the music
(that I've heard anyway, and I've heard quite a bit). I'm not affected by
his (somewhat surprising) commercial success; I still love Downward Spiral
because of its incredible layered landscapes of pain; I disagree with you
about the emotion comment--I think Trent has conveyed emotion brilliantly.
This album moves me more than any Dream Theater album, not to mention the
fact that the use of layering of sounds is incredible. I thought the
Generation X comments were kind of insipid, too--so his lyrics are
negative, so what? They can't be good, then? I personally appreciate
his lyrics more than DT's; I think they're well-thought out and
applicable (again, this is a totally different effect we're talking
about, still). The inherent nihilism doesn't bother me; while I don't
embrace all the feelings Trent does, I feel that I can identify with much
of what he says, and NOT because all I feel the need for is "food and
sex." I don't label myself a Gen Xer because I think labels are dumb.
I think real pain comes through remarkably well on this album (Broken was
great too, though I find Pretty Hate Machine to be somewhat trite in
places); I don't think it's bad for a band's themes to be negative and
I DO think that you're not giving Trent nearly enough credit.
Okay, IMHO Dream Theater is a group of gifted men. All of their
albums and bootlegs have a very special place in my collection; their
technical brilliance, compositions, and just plain talent are very
appealing to me. I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time (I can hear
hundreds breathing sighs of relief :) talking about why I love Dream
Theater because we all know what there is to love about their music.
However, I will state that saying one of these bands is better than
the other (as I said before) is just silly. "Billy Joel kicks
Metallica's ass!"--I've actually heard this said, folks, and it sounds
no less stupid than the subject of this letter. Technical proficiency
does NOT necessarily make one group of musicians (that's right, I feel
justified in calling NIN musicians) better than another. And lyrics are
the most subjective thing on the planet; saying that DT's lyrics are
better than NIN's is dumb too, especially considering the HUGE
differences between them and their purposes.
The point of this opus? Open your mind a little. Some people use
their instruments to make sounds those instruments probably weren't
originally intended to make; these people aren't non-musicians, I call
them innovators (look at Les Claypool). If everyone played the exact
same music all the time, the world would be a damn boring place. Learn
to appreciate innovators like Reznor before you stomp all over them, and
PLEASE--quit comparing apples and oranges! :)
For those of you who will complain that this was too long and didn't
have enough DT content, SUFFER. This was way more DT relevant than a
lot of the "Is it really JP??" comments floating around. Goodbye. :)
--ROb
Currently in the stereo: echolyn--as the world; Orff--Carmina Burana;
Ministry--The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste; GWAR--RagNaRok;
Tortoise--Tortoise
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:46:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "MR. THE ESQUILAX" <YYSD@grove.iup.edu>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: NIN/DT debate.
Message-ID: <01HWXQH7YUMA8WXKWY@grove.iup.edu>
i wish to express my opinions on the virtues of Dream Theater and nine inch
nails. the first thing is that these bands are very different. while TRez does
not play with anything near the virtuosity evident in dream theater, he is still
(in my opinion) a talented writer and an exceptional engineer and programmer.
the sounds that he makes are incredibly unique and the songs are very
interesting. what his music does is very different from what Dream Theater's
music does. they are entirely different categories (still in my own opinion. i
categorize all of my music, i know that many even most of you don't try to put
such structure on musical genres. it's a personal taste thing). lyrically, the
bands are also doing very different things. both are valid. yes, Trent does
seem to whine quite a bit on PHM and Borken, but these are apparently his
thoughts and i feel that they work well. regardless, The Downward Spiral's
lyrics fit into an entirely different category, as it is a concept album, and
the ideas in the lyrics are being presented as those of a _character_ as opposed
to TRez himself. i know that many of you do not like nin, and i have no
argument with that. i just ask that you don't make such broad negative
statements that he sucks because he can't play like DT or that he doesn't play
real instruments. he's exploring new areas of musical creation and doing a good
job. i gladly respect all of your opinions and enjoy hearing the thoughts of
others.
sorry, that this is so miserably redundant and unstructured. i don't feel very
coherent today.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. The Viv This VivMail has been brought
programme, vox, bassoon, sequinned cape to you by VivNet.
Group
Indiana Univ. of PA
yysd@oak.grove.iup.edu
I was drunk and ready to mosh.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:12:13 -0500
From: as459@ctcdbs.ctc.cummins.com (A G Stiles)
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: New Threads?
Message-ID: <9510271812.AA09257@ctcsunho.cummins.com>
Hi All,
This may tie in with the current "who is your favorite member?" thread.
How do you listen to Dream Theater? Do you follow the basic melody? Do
you sing along with the vocals? Do you (attempt) to keep up with Mike by
tapping your fingers, toes, ________ (insert other appendages here)? Do
you crank the bass? Do you listen mostly on headphones, in the car, on
your $2000 Bose speakers? (I'm dreaming here :)
To start things off, I generally listen to DT when I am in the car. I
sometimes listen at work on headphones (although I can't crank them). I
tend to sing along with the vocals, too. I'm not a good vocalist, but I
can copy a singer's tone and pitch, etc. on the fly. During instrumentals,
I follow the strongest melody and try to "air" play it. I also look for
counter melodies in the bass, keys and percussion.
I'm not planning on compiling a survey. I just wonder how others are
enjoying DT.
Andrew G. Stiles
=========================================================================
as459@ctc.cummins.com These are a few of my favorite things...
astil00@mail.cpbx.net _ __
O ___________(_)___ _ / \__@ _
__ /\ __ / \___ (_) \__/ \_ _______(_)__,
/ \\ / \ ____/ __/ ` '
_\__//_\__/__ / \
'``'```'`'`'``'`'``'' ________\__/^_________
CYCLING ULTIMATE MOUNTAIN BIKING
==========================================================(& ASCII ART)==
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Dan R. Licon" <yama@ecst.csuchico.edu>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com>
Subject: More NIN
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.951027110920.2994A-100000@guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu>
O.k. NIN is something I know a little about. I have listen to Mr.
Reznors music longer than that of DT. I saw them in concert last
September and I would have to say it's the best concert I've seen to
date(SLAYER and Queensryche close second!). I have always thought the
whole idea behind music was a sort of healing process. It was meant to
help one to deal with all of the trials and tribulations that one goes
through. That is just what he does. Maybe he can't fix it, maybe that
is way of fixing his nhilistic world. Music and attitude are his
communication tools, granted it may seem a little extreme at time that is
how he deals with it.
Henry Rollins once said that when something happens a part of you dies,
sometimes it's beautiful, other times it juts hurts.
Niethcze(sp?)also said that something that is to stay in the brain must
be burned in, that which ceases to hurt is not remembered.
Interpetaion is the key, I can connect with NIN. The lyrics explain
feelings that I have, and probaly many people, have gone through. On the
same level I connect with DT. I think the DT content which sums up my
feelings are Voices-Silent Man-Mirror-Lie. I consider it all one chunk
of myself.
O.k. enough Rambling. Later.
Still waiting for AD!!!!!!!!!
/------------------------------------/
/ Dan Licon- yama@ecst.csuchico.edu /
/************************************/
/ /
/ "Death makes angels of us all, and /
/ gives us wings where we once had /
/ shoulders smooth as raven's claws" /
/ -Jim Morrison /
/ /
/ "I'm giving you the choice I never /
/ had." /
/ -Lestat /
/------------------------------------/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 15:31:07 EDT
From: Corporate Community Relations <buckley@powdml.ENET.dec.com>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Dream Theater vs. Nine Inch Nails
Message-ID: <9510271927.AA02535@us2rmc.zko.dec.com>
Gawd, I can't believe how everyone had jumped on this stupid DT vs. NIN
bandwagon?!
To me, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Why don't you just try
and compare Van Halen I against E. Power Biggs "Greatest Organ Works"
album?!? You could justify the arguement that EVH playing Bachesque
triplet figures on his guitar showed much more emotion and balls than
E. Power ripping them off on a church organ.
Bullshit!!
BOTH works have their own merits, but neither have ANYTHING to do with
the other -- so how can you compare two totally separate items to determine
if one is better than the other?!?!?!?
When you figure out a good answer, lemme know...
include sig.
include sig.
(whoops, not in edit mode -- oh well)
/Buck (sig-less on a Frieday afternoon)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:58:00 -500 (EST)
From: "Daniel James Temmesfeld" <S1133627@cedarnet.cedarville.edu>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Bahr's number thing... (NBM/DTC)
Message-ID: <309139F9.B99D.0633.000@cedarnet.cedarville.edu>
; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
hmmm....
1
11
21
1211
111221
312211
13112221
1113213211
31131211131221
13211311123113112211
11131221133112132113212221
3113112221232112111312211312113211
1321132132111213122112311311222113111221131221
11131221131211131231121113112221121321132132211331222113112211
.
I could keep going, but I think I'd get bored due to never reaching a
"4"...
Dan Temmesfeld
s1133627@cedarviile.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 16:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Greg \"Big Brother\" Lee" <greg@aix.can.ibm.com>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Please Help Me...(NO DT CONTENT)
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.951027155711.106298A-100000@hal.mkm.aix.can.ibm.com>
On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Robert Quezada wrote:
>> Another thing, EVERY DAY I LOG ON WITH AT LEAST SIX DIGESTS.
Blah blah blah...
>> INFORMED WITHOUT MISSING A beat. Thanks.
> I can see you're mad, but can you use lowercase? It makes it A LOT
> easier to read.
>
> Let me ask you something. If the server that sends the digest form
> doesn't send all of them, wouldn't it get backed up after a few days?
>
> Have you tried non-digest mode? I switched to it because of the
> multiple 'jams I used to get. It allows me to easily find the
> letters I want to read and delete the ones I didn't. I don't
> remember how to switch to it -- hopefully, someone else does.
There are so many digests because of all of the useless traffic on the
'Jam...which I just added to! From now on could everyone please put
"NO DT CONTENT: <subject>" on the subject line of your mail so I can
just delete it...I have blown away over 70 jams because I work for a
living and have better things to read...The only non-DT stuff I have been
remotely interested in are guitar related topic and "Hairball 101"...
Greg.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 13:02:58 PST
From: mrkizer@CCGATE.HAC.COM
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: NIN with DT
Message-ID: <9509278148.AA814824462@CCGATE.HAC.COM>
>Of course, you ahve to wonder if Trent is really that depressed, or if he's
>just trying to sell records...
>Somehow I suspect anyone truly that miserable would have already killed
>himself.
Just to add more to this discussion....
I read an interview with Trent (a while ago) and the interviewer asks
him about being so depressed all of the time. He replies by saying that his
music is only a small part of his emotions, and that most of the time he is
rather content... So the music becomes a release for this small portion of
his emotions...
I too can't see NIN producing a ton of albums in the same
depressing/angry mode, without everybody suspecting some kind of "formula".
Trent will go through some changes someday and might become Mr.
Happy-Go-Lucky... then what will NIN sound like? 8^)
It'll be like when Fish (from Marillion) stopped drinking, got married,
had kids, etc... No more depressing/introspective lyrics (at least not
compared to his older material)...
Well, anyway....
/~~~~~~~ Michael Kizer -- Computer Sciences Corporation (Tucson, AZ) ~~~~~~~\
\ Email: mrkizer@ccgate.hac.com (preferred) -or- mkizer@indirect.com /
/ WWW: http://www.indirect.com/www/mkizer/index.htm \
\ ^---> Check here for the Dream Theater Song Book... /
/ \
\ "It's harder to sit, when everyone else is standing, /
/ To shake your head as the world just nods away." - as the world, echolyn \
\______________________________________________________________________________/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 16:06:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jonathan Byrne" <RRI02@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>
To: "YtseJam" <ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com>
Subject: Re: japan shows?
Message-ID: <9510272010.AA20765@anthor.arastar.com>
On 10/27/95 at 08:33:19 Brian V. Cox said:
>hey, wasnt the first japan show tonight? any word? setlist? anyone tape
>the sucker? i found a guy DAT taping one show, but just one. i think it
>is the first night in tokyo. he said tickets sold out in a hurry and they
>were the equivalent of US$65. that sux.
While I suppose it sucks for those of us strapped for cash (self indluded),
it is a good sign that DT can command those kinds of ticket prices and
still sell out venues.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So nice to be here, with all you good people Jonathan Byrne
Is anybody listening, to what we're doing West Virginia University
tonight? rri02@wvnvm.wvnet.edu
Could you give us a chance, before you hit the sauce
Might try a little flash up here just to get ourselves across"
"Spider Fingers," Bruce Hornsby
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:22:39 -0700
From: Ken Bibb <kbibb@qualcomm.com>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Please Help Me...
Message-ID: <199510272022.NAA10336@jafar.qualcomm.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:27:48 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Frank Marotta <fmarot01@barney.poly.edu>
> To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
> Subject: Please Help Me...
> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.951026141339.14623A-100000@barney>
>
[deleted]
> Another thing, EVERY DAY I LOG ON WITH AT LEAST SIX DIGESTS.
Excuse me, but could you please stop shouting?
> COULD WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF THE LIST PLEASE SLOW THEM THE FUCK
> DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm.
I could do this by:
1) randomly unsubscribing subscribers
2) hiring hit men to go out and shoot anyone who dares post to the list
Neither option sounds appealing :-/
> WHO THE HELL HAS TIME TO READ THROUGH THEM ALL???!!
I, for one :)
> I HOPE THE PEOPLE ON THIS LIST HAVE LIVES OUTSIDE OF DREAM
> THEATER. I SURE DO.
Same here. I do a ton of stuff outside of this list. The idea is
to use the subject lines correctly and to skip anything that even
remotely looks like a poll :) But you also imply that I have the
time to actually decide what gets included in each jam, implying
that I *don't* have a life :)
> IF ANYONE AGREES WITH ME, WOULD YOU KINDLY POST A SIMILAR MESSAGE.
If anyone agrees please *DON'T* post a similar message. Do as the
welcome message suggests and send your message to ytsejam-owner@arastar.com
and not to the entire list. (Think about it--only two people on the
are admins, the rest aren't.)
> MAYBE THEN SOMETHING WILL CHANGE.
Not likely...
> YOU TRY TO GET OUT
> SO MANY, I WOULD ASSUME IN AN ATTEMPT TO THUROUGHLY INFORM US, BUT WHAT
> ENDS UP HAPPENING(IN MY CASE) IS THAT I END UP DELETING THEM AND I AM
> THEN LESS INFORMED AS A RESULT. IT BACKFIRES!!! SO WOULD YOU KINDLY
> SLOW THEM DOWN(TWO A DAY AT THE MOST) SO THAT WE CAN ALL BE THUROUGHLY
> INFORMED WITHOUT MISSING A beat. Thanks.
Um, you seem to misunderstand how a listproc works.
You, the reader, sends something to an address (in this case
ytsejam@arastar.com). That address connects to a program that
has two primary kinds of subscribers: digest and ack (there are
two other kinds but we won't go into them).
When listserv next awakens, it will distribute your post to all of
the ack subscribers. Then it checks to see if there are enough
lines to generate a digest (a digest can also be generated if more
than a certain amount of time has gone by without a digest). A digest
is simply all of the mail that was sent out in ack mode bundled into
a single piece of mail. I don't do any actual editing of it. I *do*
have a life and both my full-time job and full-time schoolwork would
suffer should I spend *that* kind of time.
So if you are upset by the number of 'jams that are being posted today
a better strategy would be to send email *personally* to those that
you disagree with and to take as much stuff (especially polls)
offline as possible.
--
Ken Bibb "Through the fire backwards
kbibb@qualcomm.com Again and Again
jester@crash.cts.com Return to base."
Peter Hammill--"A Headlong Stretch"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:30:07 -0400
From: Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Nin vs DT, part 1
Message-ID: <199510271630.MAA30326@mail.ee.net>
I am sending three posts on this subject. This is the serious post.
> ...big post deleted.
> Can't wait to hear from you.
> Mike Meridith
Reasons I don't like NIN among others:
1. Lack of musical ability. I could stop here and my argument would be complete.
But, I can't keep my big mouth shut and you asked for it.
2. Negative lyrics, or as you call them - honest lyrics.
What you are doing is making large sweeping generalizations. You (and Trent)
are projecting your negative experiences in life as the experiences of an
entire generation.
Maybe Mike Bahr could send you one of his "All sweeping generalizations
are bad." posters.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To address your points:
1. Nin=abrasive+shocking=honest, DT=ideal world=Not Honest
Nin world=Reality, DT world=Lie
Reality is a function of perception. Everyone's reality is different.
2. Nin=dead is dead, DT=dead is not dead
Almost every person on this planet influences the life of at least one other
person. You physical person may die, but your influence will live forever.
Ex. My 4-year-old daughter loves the catchy "No Rain" song by Blind Melon.
When she is old enough to discuss such issues, Shannon Hoon will provide
a great object lesson in the dangers of drugs. So although he is
physically dead, his influence will live on.
3. Nin=you can't transcend, DT=seasons change and so can I
Change is the only constant in this universe. If you think that somehow you
are immune to it; you are very naive.
4. Nin=powerful message,DT=weak message
I think that you are confusing the medium with the message. DT makes an
effort to make its message subtle, almost nebulous at times. This allows
the listener to determine his own meaning for the message. Nin pounds the
message down your throat forcefully. In both cases, the message is not
strengthened or weakened by the means of its delivery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me make some suggestions:
1. If your parents fucked up your upbringing - don't hate them...don't blame
them - they are human and prone to making mistakes.
2. If you do not like the morals/values/mores imparted to you, adopt your own.
If you are a reasonably intelligent and mature person, you can do this.
3. If you are driven by only base motivations such as food and sex - the fault
is your own.
4. You can change if you want to; if you choose to. Or you can sew your eyes
shut and wallow in misery if you want to; if you choose to.
5. If you want to create a meaningful debate, make an attempt to organize your
separate points without repeating yourself.
This is more than pop psychology; it is truth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimers:
1. I did not grow up rich. I grew up in the same shitty world you did.
2. I am not some happy-happy-joy-joy-Bible-swinging-smiley-face person.
3. At 18, I thought the same way. I did not let it dictate the rest of my life.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:30:19 -0400
From: Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Nin vs DT, part 2
Message-ID: <199510271630.MAA30333@mail.ee.net>
I am sending three posts on this subject. This is the cynical post.
> ...big post deleted.
> Can't wait to hear from you.
> Mike Meridith
Boy you are so right:
> ... seen extremes of sex and violence in the media culture, but rarely
> anything like true emotion...
> It is not our world.
> ... one lives in Utopia, one lives in the shitty world we've inherited.
> It's more honest. It's uncomfortable.
This looks like a serious problem. Surely we are all victims, and it is time to
fight back. We need to identify the cause of our misery. You pick one of the
groups below, and let me know who I should blame:
1. All Parents
2. All Adults
3. All rich conservatives
4. All conservatives
5. All blacks
6. All jews
7. All men
8. All women
9. All gays
10. All people lacking goatees and plaid shirts.
Maybe if we work together we can changes this world.
Oops... I forgot:
> But you can't change. You can't transcend.
In Short:
Grow up.
Avoid the Victim Mentality.
Blame yourself.
Change yourself.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:30:27 -0400
From: Joe Kruger <jkruger@ee.net>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Nin vs DT, part 3
Message-ID: <199510271630.MAA30337@mail.ee.net>
> ...big post deleted.
> Can't wait to hear from you.
> Mike Meridith
I am sending three posts on this subject. This is the post you expected.
You are stupid. You are an asshole. Fuck You!
DT Rules!
Nin sucks - if you want to talk about them or their shitty music do it
somewhere else. This list is only for DT fans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is a joke.
It was sent so that your reality is not disrupted by fact, logic, or
intelligent discourse.
Please continue to perceive reality through your negative expectations.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:55:07 -0600
From: dneff@maaco.com (David Neff)
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com ('on-line "Ytse-Jammers"')
Subject: Frehley/Criss tour?
Message-ID: <1995Oct27.125100.1059.2351@smtp.maaco.com>
Say, I noticed a number of Jammers are Kiss fans -
I see Ace Frehley & Peter Criss are on tour, and I was just wondering
if anyone's seen or heard anything about them? Could be cool ...
Thanks!
Dave (dneff@maaco.com)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:48:38 -0400
From: SaVeur <jjens@gmu.edu>
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: Re: Dream Theater vs. nine inch nails
Message-ID: <199510271748.NAA02981@reactor.site.gmu.edu>
hello again, fellow 'Jammers,
i was going to stay away from thread but i like DT and NIN too much to not
say at least something. if i were to respond to every little comment, this
post would take forever. so i won't.
>I have been in a debate with my friend Mike for days about why Dream
>Theater is ten-fold better than nine inch nails. Somebody help me out.
>I have only this to say to nin; learn to play your instruments if you want
>to call yourself musicians. Here is his argument:
neither of you are going to "win". the only thing that will arise from this
"debate" is that both of you will become even more entrenched in your
position, believeing you are right and the other guy is wrong. if you were
truely openminded [which i seriously doubt], you'd be able to see the points
of the opposition, understand them, stop arguing, and then get on with your
lives.
>Why do I prefer nine inch nails over DT? Number one, their honesty.
i agree that NIN is honest - as far as i can tell from listening to the
music and comparing it to what Trent says in interviews. even if it wasn't
honest would that take away the emotion that it stirs? maybe. maybe not.
i also think that DT is honest too. why? i've never seen/heard/read anything
that would make me think otherwise; even their lyrics.
>We live in a society peopled by a Generation X, which lacks a moral
>compass, a direction or any real feeling.
umm...i don't believe this garbage that has been feed to us about the
average "Gen Xer" [i hate these labels] lacking "moral compass", morals in
general; that they are slackers without "direction or any real feeling"
[btw, just what is "real feeling"? as opposed to "fake feeling"?]. IMO it's
all bullshit and a different topic for a different place.
[...rest of post removed...]
when i listen to DT, i first and foremost listen to the music, then the
lyrics. maybe this is what DT wants us to do. think about it: music (images)
and lyrics (words). it wasn't lyrics and music. hmmm....maybe DT plans it
this way, leaving all their songs open to personal interpretation. yes, in
interviews the song writer usually gives an explanation about what the song
means -to him?. but does that mean the song can't symbolize something else
for someone else? wow. yet another tangent...
back to my point, the majority of DT's lyrics are just there. meaning that,
yes, i have an interpretation for each song, it's just that i don't find the
lyrics all that special [flames > /dev/null]. some of the lyrics i find
quite silly. it's not just DT; in all the bands that i listen to, i can find
at least one line i find silly. if you want examples email me; that way we
don't start a "my top 5 silly lyrics" thread :)
now, when i listen to NIN, i listen not for the music -which sometimes could
be argued if it really is music- not for the lyrics, but for the pure
emotion. there's just something about NIN that expresses emotions from
within me better than i can express them in everyday existence. i'm not sure
that makes sense, but it does to me. i'm not saying that DT does not evoke
emotion from me. some of their stuff does quite the opposite, especially
"Scarred".
since Matt Sirois mentioned Tool, i'll add a couple words about them. when i
listen to Tool, i listen for -get this- the music AND the emotion at THE
SAME TIME! [multi-tasking, SMP brain running IRIX 5.6 ;)] Tool is similar to
DT in that every time i listen to them, i hear something new/different that
i missed in previous listens.
to recap: DT is honest; NIN is honest; Tool is...well, Tool :)
-john who just blew his subwoofer cone listening to echolyn
"i'm a whore for punishment" NIN^H^H^Hecholyn
j o h n j j e n s @ g m u . e d u
e
n
s h t t p : / / w w w . s i t e . g m u . e d u / ~ j j e n s /
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:29:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: EMRST2@vms.cis.pitt.edu
To: ytsejam@anthor.arastar.com
Subject: old video with CD
Message-ID: <01HWXRSYC1GI99HXG1@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Hey Gang,
I just got a video as part of a trade, and it contains 2 old shows with
Charlie. One show is 6 songs I think, and Golden Slumbers/Carry that Weight is
the last song they do. The second show is a headline set with everything from
WDADU played, plus To Live Forever, Metropolis. A crew member actually shot
the video for this show, from the side of the stage, and then went bck stage
afterwards. Anyway, my point is that several interesting happenings occurred.
1. JP sang a good bit of backing vocals, including some high falsetto stuff.
2. CD played keyboards in both shows, including the intro to Carry that Weight
(piano and singing together). The single keyboard was set up near the middle
of the stage.
3. During the Killing Hand (encore of the second show), they played the intro
as it appears on WDADU (anyone who has Conciously Unreal knows this). Well
during this part, CD plays the part on an acoustic guitar while JP plays some
stuff over it. John Myung plays the single keyboard, although I couldn't
really tell what he was doing. It was really weird to see all of this going
on.
Kevin was definitely not absent, incase you were wondering. Just thought I'd
let you know, and if this had ever come up at a time when I was not reading the
'jam, sorry. unfortunately I can't dub this video, but if the guy doesn't
mind, I could forward his contact to the list. I want to check with him first.
Lastly, CD sounded rather good in the short show, and slightly worse, yet still
good in the second show. Both are much better than the show Consciously Unreal
is taken from. He sucks on that boot.
Later,
KAI - yjlhb - ain't cuttin' it for nobody
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 1084
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