YTSEJAM Digest 1470
Today's Topics:
1) Doom & Hacking
by Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu>
2) Question about mixers/amps (NDTC)
by Jonathan Goad <jgoad@quapaw.astate.edu>
3) Another question from Jon Goad
by Jonathan Goad <jgoad@quapaw.astate.edu>
4) Mail Item Format Warning
by "RESPONSE at IBMMAIL 04/23/96 - 20:26:39" <response@ibmmail.com>
5) Ytsecon III
by Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu>
6) Official DT site
by Aladdin <jc309@columbia.edu>
7) eMpTyV & itchy's dog (revisited)
by ripzero@ix.netcom.com (RipZero )
8) >:)
by Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu>
9) Re: eMpTyV & itchy's dog (revisited)
by Doug Cronkhite <dougc@cerf.net>
10) Echolyn stuff... yes again...
by Mike Backof <mbacko1@umbc.edu>
11) Okay kids (Daugherty vs. Merlo IV: Be there!)
by Ed Reed <ereed@comp.uark.edu>
12)
by
13) something i found amusing...
by ripzero@ix.netcom.com (RipZero )
14) To Pat about "that merlo guy"
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@moose.uvm.edu>
15) To Mr. Jefferey Cline
by rbarker@epix.net
16) Alternarock ....
by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:59:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu>
To: Dream Thespians <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Doom & Hacking
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.92a.960423115722.100122B-100000@homer10.u.washington.edu>
> From: swanson@henge.com (Sheila Swanson)
> Subject: Doom
>
> I just got done reading 250,000,000 jams. I am such a slaker.
That's ALL? What a lightweight... :)
> I am on my way to check out the doom dt level. Here are some ideas for
> other levels.
>
> 1. Portnoy chases Prater through the dark halls of hell. You must kill
> him and his invincible army of drum triggers.
Do they make thunderous shotgun-noises when you blast them like the snare
drum on I&W? Speaking of thunderous shotguns, that snare would make a
pretty cool shotgun sound... Or a rapid-fire barrage...yeah..hold down the
spacebar and you're Mike Portnoy...
> 2. Find the real Petrucci. Imposters are running free. Detect slight
> flaws in the solos and kill the imposters.
Call me entertainment-starved, but I'd get a kick out of this.
> 3. 5 words. Kevin Moore wants back in.
> 4. Wade your way through a hellish sea of unread ytsejams and try to
> come out without eye fatigue.
> 5. Convert your worst enemies into loyal and brainwashed ytsejammers.
Why not just stay true to Doom's roots and just kill everything?
---- > From: al682@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Dan Abosso) > Subject: blah > > Hello, > > Again, I am posting this message just for the purpose of getting > no god damn replies! Figures.. I post a message with some DT content, > and NEVER get a reply... But if I post something lame or not relating to > DT, I'd get a slew of messages.. So, enlighten me with your wisdom about > petty crap, like what keyboards are "real" and what keyboards aren't.. > (my personal opinion - anything that can make some sort of pleasing > sound.. cheap or expensive, is an instrument.. be it a Roland or a > Casio..)Okay, that's fine and dandy. Now was I the only one slightly disturbed at what followed that paragraph? Here, let me list it for you.
> Message #18 (18 is last): > Date: Sat Apr 20 13:18:56 1996 > From: an577@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Jake Carter) > Subject: Accounts,/etc/passwd file and Everything > To: al682@osfn.rhilinet.gov > Reply-To: an577@osfn.rhilinet.gov > > Okay. > You won't give me the file but can you un lock its most desirable > secrets such as the passwords to the freenet? Lock them out?
HUH?
> If you wanted ever i could arange a little Computer Password Protection > System... > The freenet can;t log in from any port including port -0+ > which in anycase (if you are a dummy is the main port mainframe) > but since you don't want to give it to me the easy > way i will just have to do it on my own and when i uncode it(using > my OWN program which does it online called EPdecode.exe) i will change > your password and fuck up your account real bad. > anyway, all i want is the hacker crackdown and the passwd file > if you perfer mailing it to me (e-mail) just do it or upload it. > By the way you get me the file you are going to be very powerful or very > weak.
The serum's potential is simply too great to just "hand over" the formulae outlining its structure. We are sorry to turn you down, and at the same time are sincerely skeptical of your capabilities of damaging our organization in any way. My guess is you have roughly three hours before your corpse is delivered to us on a meat hook. Might as well e-mail out a few more hollow threats while you still have a pulsing heart to keep those fingers warm. Perhaps if you can "crackdown" the following encrypted line with your GODLIKE powers, you'll see another sunrise. Otherwise I will vastly enjoy picking through your hard drive and seeing what unused tricks you've had up your sleeve all this time. Goodbye.
**#!&@&#)@)(&&#*(@(#((@&#)#*!*&&#%&#**!)((@(*@)@)(#!&!&#
Bafu Vai
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:06:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Goad <jgoad@quapaw.astate.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Question about mixers/amps (NDTC) Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960423135711.16779A-100000@quapaw.astate.edu>
For all of you musicians or anyone who knows about live sound systems, my band desperately needs to buy a mixing board and an amp or a head style mixer/amp. We're open to suggestions about which brand or type to buy. I was wondering if any of you could recommend any that you've had success with. For speakers, we have 2 15's, 4 10's, and horns. I'm really not sure what kind of power requirements that necessitates in terms of watts. We've been using a 250-watt (I think) Peavey head-style mixer/amp, but it was borrowed and it looks like we're going to have to return it. Would it be better to go with the head-style now or should we try to buy a mixing board and an amp? We're hoping to spend somewhere in the $500 range, so we're considering the head-style. If anyone has any suggestions, they'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon Goad
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:10:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Goad <jgoad@quapaw.astate.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Another question from Jon Goad Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960423140809.17250A-100000@quapaw.astate.edu>
While I'm at it, could someone explain the watts/ohms relationship to me? I've been looking at catalogs for amps and it'll say, like, "400 watts into 4 ohms." Could someone clear this one up for me?
Thanks again,
Jon Goad
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:25:22 EDT From: "RESPONSE at IBMMAIL 04/23/96 - 20:26:39" <response@ibmmail.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Mail Item Format Warning Message-ID: <199604231924.MAA23864@mindcrime.ax.com>
The mail item that you sent at 19:25:01 GMT on 23 Apr 1996 has been delivered.
However, it has been necessary to convert this item into a format that is acceptable to the recipient, FITIPMOL at IBMMAIL. Information beyond column 79 in the mail item will have been wrapped.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 12:28:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu> To: Dream Thespians <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Ytsecon III Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.92a.960423122521.119751A-100000@homer07.u.washington.edu>
> From: clearyce@tuvok.marian.edu (Corey E Cleary) > Subject: Bafu, no YtseconIII > > Okay, I just read Bafu is not going to Ytsecon III. Why? Bafu, if its > money or a ride, e-mail me.
I'm going to be on the East Coast from mid-June until about August 30th. When the con was on for July, I could make it, then it got moved to August, and I could still make it, then it was suddenly pushed two months forward to October. No can do, I'll be in Seattle, which is where I attend that big interruption that keeps me from posting to Ytsejam: COLLEGE. :)
Classes start September 25th. I'll be holding Ytsecon IV in the economics lecture hall. You're all invited. I can't guarantee DT will make it, but I hope to see everyone there...
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:31:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Aladdin <jc309@columbia.edu> To: BafuJam <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Official DT site Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960423153040.2960A-100000@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu>
Dear jammers,
What the FUCK?!?!? RBBS is the OFFICIAL Dream Theater site now??
Yours, A bitter Jeff
<*> Jeff Chew <*> jc309@columbia.edu <*> jeffc@dreamt.org <*> <*> Columbia University <*> (212) 853-6952 <*> Beeper (917) 712-4828 <*> <*> http://www.columbia.edu/~jc309/dreamt.html <*> "Aladdin! You just won the heart of the princess! What are you gonna do next?" --- Genie, Disney's Aladdin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:19:56 -0700 From: ripzero@ix.netcom.com (RipZero ) To: Ytsejam@ax.com Subject: eMpTyV & itchy's dog (revisited) Message-ID: <199604232019.NAA04949@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
>I have proved a working theory of mine. YOU CAN turn on Mtv anytime >of day and either get A) Oasis with Champagne supernova, or B) >Morissette with Ironic and most definitely get c) pissed off. :) >MTV has really gone down the crapper within the last 5 years. IT is >really sad. I dunno why someone starts a new music station dedicated >only to rock and metal, non grunge or alternative either ;) >NOW that would be coool :)
I want my OLD mtv!!!!! it sucks, its not even music anymore, its the real world or sandblast or singled out or some bullshit! i want to see david lee roth flying around doing karate, i want to see steve vai hammering away on vid., hell i would settle for nelson's after the rain video over all this crap!! Its a damn shame, it sucks, :(
>Someone please deactivate me.
"I'm sorry dave i cant do that"
>> >Jimbo the funky beer monster. >> >> itchy whats with that dog of yours? > >Help! I confused!! >
oh yeah, if you didnt catch that first thing, itchy's dog is named "beer" i'm just havin some fun with it. Its actually dutch for "bear" but i like to think of it as beer anyway. :)
cows, ~Rip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:28:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> To: ThE NuGgeTjAm <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: >:) Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960423151353.1985A-100000@indy17.gclab.missouri.edu>
> 15) Elvis, Rebellion, Roast Beef > by Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu> > 16) Oh boy... > by Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> [clip] > h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / > | Pat Griffin Reality2 Design | > | c675311@showme.missouri.edu c675311@cclabs.missouri.edu | > h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / > >------------------------------ > >End of YTSEJAM Digest 1468 >**************************
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!
Watch your back Bafu! >:)
>The wise elder speaks. Kudos to Paul for this brilliant observation. :) > >Bafu Vai > >------------------------------ > >End of YTSEJAM Digest 1469 >**************************
D'OH! :)
h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / | Pat Griffin Reality2 Design | | c675311@showme.missouri.edu c675311@cclabs.missouri.edu | h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 /
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Cronkhite <dougc@cerf.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: eMpTyV & itchy's dog (revisited) Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960423134729.6282A-100000@noc.cerf.net>
It's even worse than this would suggest.. if your not a quasi-punk, hip-hop, or rap group.. you can forget about seeing anything on mtv. MTV basically sucks to the core. I had heard rumors to the effect that mtv would be starting up 2 other channels, one for rock, and one for alternative or something like that.. but this proliferation of hip-hop bites...
doug cronkhite
On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, RipZero wrote:
> >I have proved a working theory of mine. YOU CAN turn on Mtv anytime > >of day and either get A) Oasis with Champagne supernova, or B) > >Morissette with Ironic and most definitely get c) pissed off. :) > >MTV has really gone down the crapper within the last 5 years. IT is > >really sad. I dunno why someone starts a new music station dedicated > >only to rock and metal, non grunge or alternative either ;) > >NOW that would be coool :) > > I want my OLD mtv!!!!! it sucks, its not even music anymore, its the > real world or sandblast or singled out or some bullshit! i want to see > david lee roth flying around doing karate, i want to see steve vai > hammering away on vid., hell i would settle for nelson's after the rain > video over all this crap!! Its a damn shame, it sucks, :( > > > >Someone please deactivate me. > > "I'm sorry dave i cant do that" > > > >> >Jimbo the funky beer monster. > >> > >> itchy whats with that dog of yours? > > > >Help! I confused!! > > > > oh yeah, if you didnt catch that first thing, itchy's dog is named > "beer" i'm just havin some fun with it. Its actually dutch for "bear" > but i like to think of it as beer anyway. :) > > cows, > ~Rip >
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:10:18 -0700 From: Mike Backof <mbacko1@umbc.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Echolyn stuff... yes again... Message-ID: <317D635A.391F@umbc.edu>
Helllo Jammers,
Blim/Michael said something about the Sony situation:
This is my view, from what Chris told me, the band members are still on good terms, but it isn't likely that echolyn will be born again.
Basically Sony forced the band apart internally, they didn't drop them per say, but Tom got fed up, and Chris was dissapointed with the bass player situation and frustrated. The guys had quit their jobs when they got signed, they were going broke so they had to get part time jobs. Getting signed ... IS NO Guarantee! (as is Berklee <grin>) Basically they broke up, then the label dropped them. The "When the Sweet Turns Sour" album due out in May isn't on Sony. Syn-Phonic (a prog label) is releasing the album in the USA, and Cyclops is releasing the album in Europe. There are also plans to release it in Canada.
Later,
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------Michael Backof mbacko1@umbc.edu http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1 WWW Pages - Unsigned Bands: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1/munsign.html WWW Pages - Inferno Page: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1/inferno.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:18:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Ed Reed <ereed@comp.uark.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Okay kids (Daugherty vs. Merlo IV: Be there!) Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960423155827.14978A-100000@comp.uark.edu>
> From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com> > > I don't know what that merlo guy's problem is, but he definitely has one. > > He still somehow misses the main point of my post. > > And talk about having an intelligent post... I am sure all those cuss > words and talk about Green Day's dick made that merlo guy seem like he is > the most intelligent person on the list. > > This is the last of my response to this flame war that merlo started. If > this juvenile wants to keep flaming me on the list then he can for I dont > care and don't want to waste the other jammer's time reading this crap.
Come on children, can't we all get along on here? Let's all show each other a little more respect...
Chris Merlo (Digital Man, D-Man, etc) is a pretty good guy, I'm sure a lot of us will vouch for that. Maybe he had something stuck up his ass that day (Chris?), or maybe he just misunderstood what you wrote.
------------------------------
At least if you're going to flame somebody, have the decency to flame their opinions, not them personally... Consider two scenarios:
'Rush's music does nothing for me... Geddy's voice just bugs me to no end, and as far as I'm concerned their music basically blows goats because of it.'
'Anyone who listens to Rush is a dumbfuck...'
Both of these statements are basically making the same commentary, only one has plenty of IMO's stuck in it, doesn't attack anyone personally, and states *why* the person feels this way. The second one really doesn't get much across and only infuriates the reader, especially if they happen to be a Rush fan.
Point of this? : Let's all try and behave ourselves a bit here... I'm sure that most of us respect each other's opinions and if we just try to keep that point of view we can all gain so much more from this forum then if we start attacking people cause they say something that might catch you on an off day.
DrX -- aka Death
P.S. I will not tolerate flames of this article... anyone wishing to engage in such childish behaviour will promptly be sent the following response:
'Go to hell. Go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not bring any friends, do not stop for a ham sandwich, do not take the subway, do not ask for a glass of water, do not piss on the electric fence, and do not take your sweet-ass time. Oh, and by the way, your mother's so ugly even Bafu wouldn't touch her with a 10-foot pole. Fucknut...'
***Preheat oven to 300 degrees, mix all ingredients together, and add smileys as preferred***
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | You've come to see the doctor, cause I'll show you the cure. | | I'm gonna take away the questions, yeah I'm gonna make you sure. | I========Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime===============================I | | ereed@comp.uark.edu | | I'm the new messiah, Death Angel with a gun. | drx@reich.uark.edu | | Dangerous in my silence, deadly to my cause. | ehr@engr.uark.edu | \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:20:31 -0700 From: ripzero@ix.netcom.com (RipZero ) To: Ytsejam@ax.com Subject: something i found amusing... Message-ID: <199604232120.OAA19004@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
i'm flippin thru the latest Guitar Player magazine, theres an add for a new mag. called "How To Play Guitar" it shows the cover and it has in big text "ROCK! Scorching solos, righteous riffs" then, a nice big picture of billy joe from greenday. whats wrong with this? its as ive pointed out before, i know people like them, but thats no excuse to put them into a magazine which should sport a bit more. I'd love to see JP or Yngwie or someone who knows what they're talking about in a mag like that. theres no talent in greendays guitar playing, but as i've been redirected by a person or persons of unknown identity, the bass player isnt all that bad. its like, depressing... i'm tired of all the same thing, mtv wont change, they tell bands not to make videos because they wont play them, theyre closed minded, they havent even heard the songs, is that proof enough that its been adopted by a whole other group of people? MTV used to play MUSIC! thats why the M is there, i wouldnt have guessed it from nowadays time though! yeah back in those days you could turn it on and see a video of a band! now you cant even see videos of crappy bands. i know i know theyre doing an mtv2 but i just expect that to be for all the crap videos they normally play to be played more. whats wrong with this picture guys? i seriously wonder if someone created a tv station that just centered on rock and metal music of the 80s and 90s spanning from prog. to death metal,, how big of a hit it would be. imagine if the headbangers ball got its own channel without riki rachman. wwwooooowwwwww.... ~Rip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 17:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@moose.uvm.edu> To: Dream Theater <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: To Pat about "that merlo guy" Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.960423171623.27066B-100000@moose.uvm.edu>
Look Pat, take a chill pill or something. Your statement that 99% of all alternative bands have no talent was just opening yourself up to get trashed. I don't like 99% of the "alternative" bands either, but then 99% of them probably don't like my type of music either. But that doesn't mean that they don't have ANY talent or that my bands don't. You made an arrogant, sweeping generalization about something and now you're surprised that someone has the audacity to disagree with you. I've found that no matter how much you think a band sucks, there are always people on this list that like them. And that number increases ten-fold when you start talking about entire genres. Different strokes for different folks. Now, I don't like that these bands are huge and bands like DT, Kansas, and Styx aren't anymore than you do. But don't piss and moan about it. If you're really as pissed off about this as you claim, get off your ass, shut off your computer, and actively get involved with promoting these guys. Call radio stations and record stores and demand that they carry/play your favorite music. Personally, I hate this whole "us against them" mentality. I think there are enough shelves in the stores and numbers on the dial for all kinds of music. As much as I dispise everything that alternative music seems to stand for and promote, I respect the right of alternative music to exist and I expect the same courtesy of everybody else for my music.
Richie
P.S. And getting mad at him for using "cuss" words? I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that most us left the FOURTH GRADE along time ago (some longer than others). And you call him juvenile.....
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 17:32:57 PDT From: rbarker@epix.net To: Ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: To Mr. Jefferey Cline Message-ID: <Chameleon.960423174540.rbarker@.epix.net>
Mr. Cline, I think the main reason you were flamed so bad about the WDATU comment is that when you posted you also made some "not so nice comments" yourself. I can't quote you but you said something along the lines of, "last time I checked WDATU was WDADU. And the name is Dream Theater not Dream Theatre. If you were real DT fans you would know this." Thats probably not what you said exactly but the main point is still there. My point to you is, and I'm not flaming you, is that some people have been on here a long time. When you insult these people you are in for a lit like you never seen.:) Especially when you are the one that is wrong. It would have been different if you would have said, "what is WDATU, I always though it was WDADU?" If you would have left out the offensive comment you would have recieved real polite answers. I asked the same question a month ago and I was told what it was politely because I asked politely. When people make comments including offensive remarks and they are the ones that are wrong, it really does make them look like a dumbass. So my advice to everyone is, think before you post. Robert Barker(Ibanez) ------------------------------------- Name: Barker E-mail: rbarker@epix.net Date: 4/23/96 Time: 5:32:57 PM -------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 17:48:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Alternarock .... Message-ID: <199604232148.RAA19674@wicked.stigmata.org>
Hey all ....
Just a quick response ( _not flame_ ) to Pat Daugherty's last post. He said that all the Alternative bands play the big arenas while DT gets stuck in undersold arenas or oversold clubs. Well, in the last year or so, I haven't been to an arena and seen alot of bands. Strictly clubs. Only show that has really played the Fleet Center was the RHCP/Silverchair. So, now, you are saying, what is your point. Well, basically I have seen alot of bands in clubs in the last year, including:
Buffalo Tom (tonight) Everclear (last night and back in Dec) Bad Religion (two nights ago) KMFDM (twice) Life of Agony (twice) God Lives UnderWater(twice) Folk Implosion 311 Hum The Verve Iron Maiden SmackMelon (twice) Salt Front Line Assembly Die Krupps Joe Satriani and of course Dream Theater (twice)
Now, half the bands there are considered Alternative and play clubs, usually packed, but usually 18+ which helps :) So, I don't understand how you can complain about Alternative bands playing the big places while bands like DT get stuck in the clubs. Clubs are the best place to see a show to begin with. I mean, there are a rare few occasion when I will actually go to an Arena show now (Floyd, Rush, etc).
Just how I see things
Skadz
-- +-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+ | Ryan P Skadberg skadz@mindstorm.com | | s y s t e m . a d m i n i s t r a t o r / w e b . d e v e l o p e r | | http://www.bluesky.net/skadz/ http://www.dreamt.org/ | +-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+ \ "And every prayer we pray at night has somehow lost its meaning" / \ "Dead Winter Dead" - Savatage / +-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 1470 **************************
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