YTSEJAM Digest 2108
Today's Topics:
1) Jazz for the DT listener in all of us... =)
by Hard Rock <cdh191@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
2) Attention Deficit Disorder
by Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
3) Re: Blind Guardian
by tq0139@mail.doshisha.ac.jp (Keiji Nishihara)
4) thingies
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu>
5) All that jazz
by "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET>
6) Re: origins of rock: guitar vs. keyboard
by "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu>
7) music...
by "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu>
8) Re: guits vs. kes, and jazz every puppy should lap up
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
9) Re: origins of rock: guitar vs. keyboard
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
10) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2107
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
11) Great use of the keyboards.
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu>
12) I was wondering...
by robert.henderson@ICDC.COM
13) Moore-similar music?
by Henrik Gustafsson <henrik@thn.htu.se>
14) fire garden and bangkok
by <raitz@guvatrak.ee> "Raivo Hool"
15) Friday the 13th
by gsrockr@en.com (George Sumschidt)
16) err..
by "Mikko Kalermo" <kalermo@dreamt.org>
17) DT Shows
by vanzin@dks.com.br
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 22:43:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Hard Rock <cdh191@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
To: The Perfect Strangers <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Jazz for the DT listener in all of us... =)
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.93.961213223540.24090C-100000@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Hey Jammers.
I wrote the guy who wanted to know of some good jazz acts for DT fans on
private e-mail. But it would be doing John Coltrane a huge injustice if I
shared that information with only one educated, open-minded 'jammer. =)
Let me tell you guys, John Coltrane is intense! He moves me like no other
musicians do. As for what a DT fan would like, I would have to suggest
"Giant Steps". This album is devoid of balls and chunk, but it is DT-like
in the sense that it is hard/soft, slow/fast, and vertical/horizontal all
on the same album. If any of you ytse-dudes (and dudettes) have more
questions on Coltrane, would like to be recommended any other jazz, or are
already jazzheads and would like to talk jazz, give me an e-mail. I do
leave for home (Hollywood, FL) tomorow, though...go Northwestern in the
Citrus Bowl!
Take it easy,
"To be is to do" - Plato
Charlie Harrison "To do is to be" - Aristotle
"Hard Rock" (NYC) "Doo bee doo bee doo" - Sinatra
/}
/ /
/ / />
"Vato" ,__________/ //{----/{________________________________ "Vato"
Miami /| ==========|/\|-----/_________________________________\ Miami
NYC \| ==========|\/|-----\_________________________________/ NYC
'~~~~~~~~~~\ \\{----\{
\ \ \> "Having a sensitive member of the
"Seasons change... \ \ audience; it's like having another
and so can I" \} member of the band..."
-DREAM THEATER -JOHN COLTRANE
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:09:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Attention Deficit Disorder
Message-ID: <199612140509.AAA03775@newman.cris.com>
david kobayashi screamed,
>as for jazz every ytsejammer should know, i scanned the list someone brought
>up, and they mentioned chic, and metheny and al dimeola, which is all good-
>but you're missing some FUCKING ESSENTIAL NAMES!!!!!
>snip...snip....snip<
>i mean, there's plenty of other names i could throw, but if you're looking
>for jazz, you CANNOT, i repeat, CANNNNNNNNN FUCKING NOT talk about dimeola or
>metheny without mention of the big daddys like coltrane or miles.
(sigh). I KNEW some smartass would make a blatant display of his or her
inability to pay attention to a post. The post regarding Dimeola, Metheny,
et. al., was directed towards people who seemingly have a passion for Hard
Rock in their blood. THAT's why the post was labeled "Jazz for DT fans", and
not "Jazz Essentials". GET IT? If I wanted to drown you all in Jazz artists,
I would've given a list of more Jazz names than would've fit in a single
Digest. So I limited it so a sort of
"Jazz-to-get-you-started-if-you-normally-listen-to Progressive Rock". It
ain't easy to just jump into a new genre just like that, so I took a moment
of my time try and help someone who expressed an interest in getting his
feet wet; music that to me is more accessible to a Rock Fan than some of the
more "real" Jazz, and hopefully it might rub off on a few other Jammers.
Thanks for making me not want to try and help anymore.
-Rick
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\****************** Richard S. Audet ******************/
/*************** ytse@cris.com ****************\
\**** Graduate Student in Electrical Engineering ****/
/********* University of Florida *********\
\***** B.S.E.E. & B.Music MUE University of Miami, 1995 ****/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 15:06:52 -0800
From: tq0139@mail.doshisha.ac.jp (Keiji Nishihara)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Blind Guardian
Message-ID: <9612140607.AA09415@mail.doshisha.ac.jp>
At 7:17 PM 96.12.12 -0800, alexis1 wrote:
>Hey people, what would be the best CD to start off my Blind Guardian
>collection. I', thinking of ordering Follow the Blind 'cause the name
>sounds cool. Please let me know which one to get first. Thank you!
>
>Alexis
Well,I think their latest ordinally album (5th album)"Imaginations From
The Other Side" will be best choice, alternative choices are "Somewhere Far
Beyond"(4th album), "Tokyo Tales" (captured live performance of SFB tour at
Tokyo kouseinenkin-hall) and "^Tales From The Twilight World"(3rd album).
They are one of the best German Metal bands ,so you'll not be dissapointed
with them.
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 01:10:07 -0500 (EST)
From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu>
To: The Damon and Bafu Jam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: thingies
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9612140033.D16662-0100000@griffin.emba.uvm.edu>
> From: alex fraser <fraser@stolaf.edu>
> Subject: music therapy, action figures
>
> finally, hey bafu - i've got a SloppyJoe69 action figure, complete with
> "flock of sheep" accessory. what's that worth?
Ooh ooh ooh! I got a second-edition Damon with special-limited-edition
analog synth for trade! I'm also still looking for these rare action
figures:
Bigman with popcorn-popper attachment
"You're being a dick" talking Madsman doll
Richie Rivera doll with jelly doughnut and speeding ticket accessories
The "Jeremy and Sue Fun Pack" - no one can seem to find this one!
Pam with cab meter accessory
the extra-rare Pat Daugherty action figure with goatee and flannel shirt
Charone with hot Majesty-symbol poker (not recommended for children under 3)
ultra-rare "Bafu consulting a thesaurus" figure
the special collector's set of everyone ever named "Ibanez"
and, of course, the rarest of all, Rip with hamburger accessory.
----> From: Dreaded Rear Admiral <bd90988@binghamton.edu> > Subject: How much is the fan club? > > I was just wandering if anyone out there could tell me how much the fan > club costs and is it worth it to join? Any response you guys could give me > would be helpful. Thanks!!!!
I hate to sound terse, but it's in the FAQ.
----
> From: "System Administrator" <SysAdmin@msn.com> > Subject: Undeliverable:YTSEJAM digest 2105 > > Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients.
Well, at least it isn't IBMMAIL.
----
Finally, to all you goonz out there that are taking the GRE general and/or subject tests tomorrow like I am, and getting in those last moments of studying, whining, or vomiting (like me):
GOOD LUCK!
"I brought my pencil!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:22:42 +0000 From: "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: All that jazz Message-ID: <199612140616.AAA14502@Walden.MO.NET>
Good. Just as I was about to suggest Bela Fleck and the Flecktones for jammers who might want to check out some killer jazzy stuff, somebody beat me to it. And yes, I must agree that ALL bass players should hear Victor Wooten play. That guy rips it up. I got to see them live for free this past summer and man, those guys know how to jam, let me tell you. Also, for any trombone players out there especially (I knwo there are a few of us on the jam :), check out anything recent by Bill Watrous, especially Bone-i-fied. That guy has got some killer shops on bone, and really plays with some feeling. And I'll agree with most of the other suggestions (the ones I've heard anyway). Coltrane kills. Miles Davis is awesome. And the others. man, cat, daddeeo. i think I might groove to some coll tunes for a while and just chill... .
Dale R. Newberry
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 00:48:35 -0600 From: "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: origins of rock: guitar vs. keyboard Message-ID: <32b24dc16c3b126@mhub1.tc.umn.edu>
> The guitar is the rock instrument of choice. Why? What makes guitar so > respected?> And what makes keys so ... disrespected? What is it about these > instruments that causes guitars to be the dominant force in rock. I want to > know. I don't understand.
It's not that hard to figure out. Rock grew out of the guitar playing of blues and jazz artists. It was specifically meant to be a step away from the piano/classical/big band sound. Since at the time they didn't have these cool electronic keyboards with all the fun sounds ;-) , they stuck to the guitar to make the music a statement of youth and rebellion. I mean really, you're not cool if your parents like piano concertos and then you try to piss them off by playing Mozart.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6521 http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/3771
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 00:59:40 -0600 From: "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: music... Message-ID: <32b2505b6c3b230@mhub1.tc.umn.edu>
By the way, since people are getting into reading music vs. playing by ear, how they write, all that good stuff, I'll share this with you. I learned the basics of music theory from my sister, an opera major, and a good friend of mine, who is a self-taught guitar player and one of the best I've heard (he also taught himself violin, harmonica, and bass - and he actually plays, he doesn't just fuck around). I use that little bit of knowledge to write my songs - guitar and keyboard parts. I have not learned how to play anybody else's songs, and don't intend to (unless you count learning Simon and Garfunkel's "Sounds of Silence" on harmonica, but I just did that because I was getting tired of the blues one day ;). If I hear an interesting technique on guitar or keyboard, I'll ask my friend or sister, respectively, how it's done. It's easy to go beyond the three chord alternative level if you have a little creativity, and you actually care about the music. I actually avoided chords until recently so that I could get a solid foundation in getting by without them, to avoid falling back on them as a crutch. I'm far from a talented musician, but with little effort and care, a person can do a lot.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6521 http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/3771
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 2:17:14 EST From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: guits vs. kes, and jazz every puppy should lap up Message-ID: <9612140717.AA15759@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
Wildcoba, my man, you misunderstood the jazz question. I doubt most DT fans will easily digest Coltrain or Miles Davis. Metheni, or Demiola (butchered spelling) might be easier for DT fans to grasp to get into jazz. Most Dt fans are metal fans at heart who came over to the prog side through DT and FW and stuff, the others are prog fans who came over to metal. The more prog fans might embrace Miles Davis easier than the more metal fans. Unless I am wrong. Maybe I am not giving the metal fans enough credit. It would probably depend on the person's individual taste and openness to new ideas and new music.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 2:25:30 EST From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: origins of rock: guitar vs. keyboard Message-ID: <9612140725.AA28491@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
Your post is uite correct, remembering my rock history, but don't you think once people began incorporating the B3 organ into rock and synthesizers began to spring up that the keyboard world could have just as much of a rebellion? Hell, the Hammond b3 sounds pretty rebellious when run through a distorted leslie speaker. And keyboards? God, you can develope any angry sounds you want. Do I sound paranoid when I say that guitarists try to keep keyboardists behind them? Am I out of line there? Or have I just been working with the wrong people?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:57:46 -0600 From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2107 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961214085746.007254f4@enteract.com>
>But look at all the substandard people who are idolized by >guitarists.
Damon, quit while you're ahead. I'm sick of this whining, and don't feel that you have the right to define standards in guitar playing for me. I think I'll make up my own mind.
>Who is the keyboard world going gaga over? Rap producers >and dance musicians. What has the world come to?
In saying this you place the blame DIRECTLY on KEYBOARDISTS. Stop acting like the world's out to get keyboardists. It's bullshit. It's an excuse.
>Also for the record, most keyboardists forgo music and learn by ear.
I tend to disagree heavily with this.
> Please, don't come over here with your $400 >guitar and force me to listen to your overdriven, power-chord playing riffs.
Now the fact that guitarists have to pay less for their gear comes into play.... I'm waiting to hear about the bassist on the grassy knole and the percussionist in the book depository. :)
>Please, oh please. I didn't mean it, I swear. I mean, I'm sorry that you >asshole rock musician guitar types won't let me into your bands so that I can >make a little money, too.
Stop this. I will not take any blame for your inability to produce music in a live atmosphere. If all the people you deal with are jerks, that's life. Shit happens. You do your best with it and move on. I'm not in a band right now either, and I am writing all kinds of material I think would be great on an album, and I don't bitch about it.
> The guitar is the rock instrument of choice. Why? What makes guitar so >respected?
Because it sounds cool, it feels cool to play, and it looks cool. That's all you need.
> And what makes keys so ... disrespected?
Maybe the fact that keyboard players whine and moan so much.... :)
>What is it about these >instruments that causes guitars to be the dominant force in rock. I want to >know. I don't understand.
Why are we all carbon based life forms? Science says that it is possible that life could be made of silicon, and there may even be benefits to this. I don't understand. I guess there's just more important things to worry about.... like say.... making music.
>You're all misunderstanding my original post. > My main premise here is not to compare guitarists to keyboardists. My gripe >is why keyboardists get the same respect guitarists get.
A). YOU started the guitarist / keyboardist comparison issue, and B). we aren't misunderstanding anything. You're changing your arguement as you realize your faults, and that's fine. Just don't say we're misunderstaning what you typed out.... it's all black and white.
Damon: I'd love to jam with you sometime. Reasonable musicians don't get down on anyone because of the instrument they play. You just live in some shithole of an area where everyone wants the keyboardist there only when he's absolutely necessary. You'll find there are many more popular keyboardists out there than you think. Hstorically instrumental keyboard albums have sold better than instrumental guitar albums. If you're moving into the realm of rock, there's an edge that the guitar brings with it that's not replicable on other instruments. In the pop world, there's a flexibility to the keyboard that is almost impossible to match on guitar. You have tunnel vision because the reaction you've been getting is so negative. You need to smell the musical coffee and perk-o-late. Don't keep posting about how awful life is as a keyboardist. Show us why you feel so strongly that keyboards are the instrument of choice! Show us musically why we should stand up and take note of your mighty playing. I guarantee we're all interested. You're quickly losing respect for passing the buck off to guitarists. Just chill a bit.
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG. They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground on which idea seeds fall." - Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:29:22 -0700 From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Great use of the keyboards. Message-ID: <199612140929.CAA52810@nevis.u.arizona.edu>
At 11:25 PM 12/13/96 -0800, you wrote:
>And keyboards? God, you can develope any angry sounds you >want. Do I sound paranoid when I say that guitarists try to keep keyboardists >behind them? Am I out of line there? Or have I just been working with the >wrong people? >
You're not out of line, you're just really generalizing, but I'd say you're probably just working with the wrong people. It's a matter of taste. I'm a guitarist and I personally love how Dream Theater (look ma! No abbreviations!!) incorporates the keyboard into their music. I really like how they'll play some heavy crunchy stuff in the background and have this soaring keyboard over top of it all. A great example of this is the intro to "Caught in a Web". That stuff just makes me sit back and say "Whoa!" Know what I mean? Keyboards are exceptional in rock and especially in metal if used properly IMO.
Peace be with you and God bless.
~Vince
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 03:33:22 -0500 From: robert.henderson@ICDC.COM To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: I was wondering... Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.16.12.14.3.33.22.2510543059.412945@bbs.icdc.com>
..would it be legal copyright/trademark-wise to name a band Dream TheatRE? Does Dream Theater own the rights to band names that *sound* like their own?
Dreem Theator anybody?
A 17-and-a-23/24-year-older who will be let into Birch Hill or f'n ELSE! (and that's one ornery 'ELSE'...), Brian Henderson, Cyberburlap
"Nuclear disarmament is for girls." -- E. Kaplan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 13:47 NFT From: Henrik Gustafsson <henrik@thn.htu.se> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Moore-similar music? Message-ID: <m0vYtUw-0002fmC@tellus.thn.htu.se>
Hi, first a shortie: >Hey guys my name is Lucas Guarino. I'm a Boston University student from >NJ. I can't believe that Damon and Bafu are arguing over the superiority of >instruments. HEAR, HEAR, HEAR !!!=20 Me neither can understand that. And for violating The-Ytse-Jam-Basic-Rules number 1, 3 and 4, I guess We could have them expelled from the list, but who wants to take the first step...=20
I told you the other day that I've re-discovered Kemin Moore's Demo, and since I still haven't started to buy Christmas-gifts I have some money to spend on CDs. And I'd like anything similar to Moore, but I don't know a single name in that genre. Do you? Any suggestions are kindly taken, since i'm totaly lost on this one. My favourites are SDV, Blanket, NormalWords and Shallow and,,, Well, this will sum up the whole demo, I guess. =20 take care, folks -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Henrik Gustafsson Box 957 461 29 Trollh=E4ttan Quality deployer +46(0)520-47 50 49 [fax +46(0)520-47 50 99] =20
=20
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 22:09:56 +0200 From: <raitz@guvatrak.ee> "Raivo Hool" To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: fire garden and bangkok Message-ID: <199612141319.PAA05117@pepe.online.ee>
> Vai didn't write "Bangkok" and the "Fire Garden Suite" is a rather > long original work. Maybe he didn't want a cover and an original as > one track.
There was an article about it somewhere. He did write Bangkok, and originally it actually was a piece of Fire Garden Suite. Then he sent the tape to somebody, manager or something, whose husband immediately said after listening to Bangkok: "I know the song, it's from that rock opera called Chess." Steve had never even heard the rock opera before, so he listened to it and thought, "Wow, those guys ripped me off!" But since the music had been written some 16 years before he did it, he had to find out how he managed to write it exactly the same way. Then it struck him that some years ago, Dave Lee Roth had given him a tape and told him to learn what was on it. For warmups or whatever. So he learnt it and forgot it afterwards. When it was time to write Bangkok, he found a cool piece of music in his head and wrote it, thinking of it as his own. :-)
Raitz
"One of nature's greatest wonders is the ability of the human ear to distinguish among a million of sounds around us. Listen!"
"BBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!"
Devin Townsend & Strapping Young Lad
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 08:47:23 -0500 (EST) From: gsrockr@en.com (George Sumschidt) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Friday the 13th Message-ID: <199612141347.IAA09865@en.com>
> 9) Guitar vs. keyboard- again... > by zack@lsil.com (Zack Gemmill)
<stuff snipped>
>And Mikko, thanks a lot for pointing out that it's Fri. the 13th >today! It didn't even occur to me. I'll probably end up in a head-on >at 70mph going down the freeway tonight... Damn drunks. > >Zach >
Uh, hi Zach. Speaking of doing 70 on the highway and dying... Try doing it upside-down at about 100 mph in a Neon with your seatbelt on. ***WARNING*** Never unhook your seatbelt while your are inverted!!! You fall UP and hit your head!!!!
See you at Birch Hill, G. _________________________________________
"We don't get much done around here, but DAMN we have a good time!" {G.S. 1996}
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 16:35:41 +0200 From: "Mikko Kalermo" <kalermo@dreamt.org> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: err.. Message-ID: <199612141436.QAA09137@master.netti.fi>
Rick Audet told us: >I'm simply grateful the even find out about new and unheard-of bands. So am I, and I wouldn't have discovered some great bands unless they haven't been mentioned here
>There's more to searching than just going to he local record >store and not seeing a slot for said artist. You're absolutely right. However, what I meant was that would it be too much trouble if you tell about some band's album and mention that it's available from for example Noise records.It would be quite helpful when searching something when you can tell in store that 'btw, it's released by...' They can get it for you much easier. And I didn't mean that JAR's (tm) should post every little detail ;)
And for using Internet to find things, sometimes I've found info that I need, sometimes not.
Mikko
**************************************************************** * kalermo@dreamt.org * * http://www.netti.fi/~kalermo/ * ****************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:23:42 -0300 From: vanzin@dks.com.br To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: DT Shows Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.16.12.14.13.23.42.2579404677.470052@dks.com.br>
Hey jammerz,
I don't know if there is any show left (I sohuld have asked this before), but, if someone goes to one of their shows, and happens to talk to one of the guys from DT, can you please ask if they plan to come to Brazil in the next tour? I can't wait to see them anymore!
[]'s Marcelo Vanzin Sao Paulo - Brazil vanzin@dks.com.br vanzin@dreamt.org http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/6308/index.html MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
DarkStar Multimidia BBs Telnet: dks.com.br Fone +55 011 870-1888 Internet, Gameconection, Games, ShareWare
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2108 **************************
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