YTSEJAM Digest 2127
Today's Topics:
1) ThingZ
by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
2) Future Birch Hill
by nishiki@juno.com (Aaron K. Silverman)
3) Video Game Guitars
by nishiki@juno.com (Aaron K. Silverman)
4) mars
by David Alderman <alde0004@gold.tc.umn.edu>
5) Re: Modal theory-no DTC
by "Stephen Sweeney" <Dalamar@bee.net>
6) Re: My Birch Hill Post - no DTC
by "Stephen Sweeney" <Dalamar@bee.net>
7) Gaming!
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
8) Birch Hill
by Richard Warren <rwarren@memphisonline.com>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2126
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
10) Ytsequote of the millenium
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
11) Tapestry
by Ryan Eschauzier 97 <rdesc@conncoll.edu>
12) RE: how'd *you* get sucked in?
by trevorw@ms.kallback.com
13) Re: The future...
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
14) Re: Damon and his snot.
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
15) Re: Birch Hill/Rush Question
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
16) Re: Actual Replies To Damon
by "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
17) SUPERIOR URL's
by Bernd Basmer <basmer@med-rz.uni-sb.de>
18) Boot beg
by John Mastin <johnny@psa.pencom.com>
19) Supermarket receipt;misc;circuit-board ?
by Younis Youssef Hilal <yhilal@uclink.berkeley.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:55:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: ThingZ
Message-ID: <199612180555.AAA00354@wicked.stigmata.org>
Hey All ...
Well, lots more from me later, but for now, just the important
stuff. :)
IRC -> Server is back up :):) Its on a brand new T1, so it should
be fast and nice, so tell me if you have any probs.
Dreamt.org Email Accts -> They will be moving back to my home machine
soon (probably), but for now they are still up and running good.
Wicked.stigmata.org -> For the few (very very few) of you who have
accts on my machine, it is back up :)
Blank Jams -> OK, I get the point!!! I'm still looking in to it, but I think
I know what the problem is, DO NOT SEND ME ANY MORE BLANK JAMS!!!!!
Later!
Skadz
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:23:19 PST
From: nishiki@juno.com (Aaron K. Silverman)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Future Birch Hill
Message-ID: <19961218.010832.9998.3.nishiki@juno.com>
Can someone please email me and let me know if Nuno Bettencourt is
opening for Steve Vai this weekend?
Thankee Mucho!!!
And for our Nihonjin,
Doomo Arigatoo Gozaimasu!
DJ Kuul A
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:57:49 PST
From: nishiki@juno.com (Aaron K. Silverman)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Video Game Guitars
Message-ID: <19961218.010832.9998.5.nishiki@juno.com>
Mape mentioned Formula One for PS-X. . .
This could be one of the greatest games ever! However, the Vai and Satch
tracks on it are regular tracks from their albums (Back to Shalla-Bal
from Flying In A Blue Dream, Summer Song from The Extremist, and Juice
from Alien Love Secrets. . .the other songs are all by someone else, and
done specifically for the game). On the other hand, it is worth buying a
PlayStation and the steering wheel controller to play this game.
DJ Kuul A
PS Petrucci should try doing music for a game on a REAL system! :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:33:22 -0600
From: David Alderman <alde0004@gold.tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: mars
Message-ID: <32B79032.491A@gold.tc.umn.edu>
zack@lsil.com (Zack Gemmill) wrote:
Yeah, Mars Attacks! was cool. It wasn't quite as funny as I
thought it would be; the humor was both obvious and subtile
in many places. Any scene with Rod Steiger was hilarious
though. At least they didn't kill off Natalie Portman---
she's such a babe and she's a brilliant actress though her
part in this movie wasn't much to work with.
Aaaaaaah Ahhhh AAAAAAH Ah ahh aaaaah
(don't run, we are your friends)
The last 30 min. of that film tore me up. Hilarity.
Hey now that Conan is on reruns on CNBC, does anyone know who the guests
were from the show that appears on Space Dye Vest?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:47:14 -0500
From: "Stephen Sweeney" <Dalamar@bee.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Modal theory-no DTC
Message-ID: <19961218065413912.AAA129@Dalamar>
Only the modal thread that popped it's head up, Isaac mentioned modes and
the harmonic scale. A lot of jazz theory uses modes built off the harmonic
minor scale, the thing is most of these modes don't have any names (like
lydian, phrygian, etc.) most of them are referred to as something like
"mode 6 of the harmonic minor scale" for example mode 6 of the A harmonic
scale would be F G# A B C D E F I've been trying to convince my teachers
to just let make up names for them but he doesn't think the world will
catch on. :) Oh well.
Take care
MalletMan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:50:43 -0500
From: "Stephen Sweeney" <Dalamar@bee.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: My Birch Hill Post - no DTC
Message-ID: <19961218065413912.AAB129@Dalamar>
That pretty femal jammer who gave you the water after the show was
Quazel(Jill), my girlfriend, and she is pretty cute isn't she :)
MalletMan
P.S. sorry, I'm just proud :P
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:08:00 -0600
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Gaming!
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961218070800.0070b0f4@enteract.com>
>I guess that Sega Saturn pinball "Necronomicon" won't be the only videogame
>hit the jammers will be buying to hear the music...did all the Satch fans and
>Steve Vai aficionados know that there's a Formula One simulation for the Sony
>Playstation that features 15 rock tracks, including BOTH of the aforementioned
>guitar gods...?
Are they already released tracks (on the Formula One game?)
Also, one of my total freak shred guitar heros, Ron Thal, played the music
for the Sega Saturn game "Wild Woody." Anyone have this game? Are Sega
Saturn games in CD format? And if so can they be played on a regular cd
player? ARRRGH! My friend just took someone's Nintendo 64 off will-call at
a Service Merchandise and bought it for himself. Think of how badly he just
ruined Christmas for some family!
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:21:47 -0600
From: Richard Warren <rwarren@memphisonline.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Birch Hill
Message-ID: <199612180721.BAA20305@ford.socomm.net>
I know everyone is probably tired of hearing about Birch Hill but since it
was my first Dream Theater show I have to say something.
It was a long (and expensive) trip from Memphis but well worth it. The show
was great. The new songs are very cool. A couple sounded kinda funky.
Take Away My Pain is sure to be a highlight of the next tour. I really hope
someone taped the show (even against DT's wishes) since it was my first
show. I know a copy of the Dec. 6 New Haven show exists because I will have
it soon but I would like a copy of the show I attended. Someone mentioned
someone taping it and having his camera taken. I had my camera at the show.
I stood with my hand on the barrier with a bouncer about 5 ft away from me.
Every once in a while he would give me a look but never said anything.
Therefore I have 18 pictures of the show. A camera malfunction (the film
did not rewind) caused me to lose 6 pictures. I am not a professional
photographer but the pictures are decent. Some have a reddish background
but most are pretty clear considering I had the shit knocked out of me all
night. If anyone has a copy of the show I will send you tapes and pictures.
Just email me.
Finally, although I have been silent about it I have never been a fan of
James LaBrie. I thought he had an excellent studio voice but his live
performances (I have several bootleg CDs and videos) were terrible. I
thought to myself, how can a band like Dream Theater put up with this. Well
I found out at Birch Hill on Dec 14, 1996. After hearing that show I can't
think of Dream Theater without James LaBrie. I know it is rumored that
James reads the list so, James, if you are reading, you are the man!
I really wanted to meet some jammers at TGIF but I got lost between
Philadelphia and Old Bridge. I spent about five hours making the 60+ mile
trip. Once I found the club I did not want to leave. After the show I did
not see any ytsejam shirts so I left around 2:00p. Maybe I didn't look hard
enough. I wish I would have stayed since the band obviously came out to
meet the fans.
Later,
Richard Warren
rwarren@memphisonline.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 02:28:14 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2126
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.961218015228.69378A-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 ytsejam@ax.com wrote:
> CC may have reasonable control over his guitar and Rikki may be
> able to impress some of you drummers out there, but I find that the
> lyrics (and I mean only the FIRST TWO ALBUMS) ruin everything. I didn't
> get the chance to appreciate musical technique because Bret's
> ridiculously-exagerated sexual innuendo had me on the floor laughing.
That's what they are supposed to do. Those albums are not meant to be taken
seriously, for the most part. It is escapism at its finest and it serves
its purpose. I mean, "I Want Action" and "Look But Don't Touch" are not
supposed to be social commentary. They are, for the most part, simply songs
about getting laid, which, at the time, was a major force in Poison's early
days (this is by their own admission). And IMHO, they are a blast to
listen to. When I put on a Poison album, regardless of the year it was
made, for that hour or so of music all the problems I have disappear and
I turn the stereo off with a smile on my face. DT has the same
effect...go figure.
But I just can't look at the old
> stuff and take any of it seriously. I know that they have not-overtly
> sexual songs like "I won't forget you" and "every rose", but these seem
> to be the excpetions. Is anyone with me on this?
Yes and no. Sex has always been a big part of Poison's subject matter and
probably always will be. But, in addition to the two songs you mentioned,
look at "Cry Tough" (about reaching for your dreams), "I Want Some"
(about searching for the love that all your friends seem to have found),
"Fallen Angel" (the underside of the Hollywood fast-lane), "Back To The
Rocking Horse" (regaining the innocence of childhood), "Valley Of Lost
Souls" (the underside of big city life- NYC in particular) "Let It Play"
(escaping to music), "Life Goes On" (about a friend of CC's that was
shot), "Ride The Wind" (the brotherhood of motorcyclists) "Something To
Believe In" (the death of Bret's best friend, TV evanglists, Viet Nam,
homelessness), "Life Loves A Tragedy" (the yin and yang of life), and
virtually all of the Native Tongue album. These subjects may be simple
when compared to the subject matter of other artists, but they are still
serious nonethless and are not sexually motivated. One of Poison's
biggest problems is that they have been pigeon-holed into being a
mindless party-band. Undeniably, they have that side to them, but they
have another side that is often overlooked and underappreciated.
Would we like Rush and DT if Ged and James were out there, >
licking there lips, talking about their plans for a "roll in the hay"? I >
always hated "in the mood" for just that reason.
> I'd love it. But
that's just me. I still fail to understand how a song about getting laid
is of less worth than one about, say, the feeling of claustrophobia man
felt once he reached the west coast of America and realized that Manifest
Destiny was over (don't ask...it just came to me). Of course, if DT did a
sex song, they would probably dress it up in mythical allusions and
metaphors, which is fine. It makes for an interesting read and is very
challenging from a lyricist's perspective (I am one myself, in addition to
hitting the skins...drums, that is). But it would still be the same gift
in slightly different wrapping. And for the record, James's old band,
Winter Rose, had several sex songs (although the actual amount of
"lip-licking" he participated is still under investigation:)). Incidently,
"Flesh & Blood" marked a HUGE evolution in the band's lyrics and "Native
Tongue" even more. There is something to be said for all types of songs,
but don't make the mistake of condemning Poison for not being Rush or DT,
because Poison fans could make the same argument.
This is my humble opinion. I hope the Poison-lovers don't hit me
> too hard. They were my favorite band once.
>
>Don't worry, I'm not offended. It is always good to find another Poison
fan, but don't judge them by what they're not. Judge them for what they
are and I think/hope you'll find that they stack up very well.
Richie
(Keeper Of All Things Poison)
P.S. You wouldn't be willing to part with those autographed albums, would
you?
P.P.S. Whoever posted the lyrics to "Take Away My Pain:" thanks. That was
really cool.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 02:06:53 -0600
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Ytsequote of the millenium
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961218080653.0071c140@enteract.com>
<Madsman> You seek the dark and evil unspeakable terrors of the human
soul.
<BafuVai> Yeah. You seek Country music.
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 04:17:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Ryan Eschauzier 97 <rdesc@conncoll.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Tapestry
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961218041434.32398A-100000@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>
I have to say, I am a little disappointed that this cd wont be coming out,
too. Is there a way for us non fan club members to get a copy of the
christmas cd...which apparantly has some of the Ronnie Scotts show on it?
Does anyone know if there is, or will be a way to get my hands on one of
those CDs after all the fan club members have received theirs? I think it
may have been posted before, but can someone tell those of us who missed
it, the track listing for this DT christmas album? Thanks.
r u s h
Trust is just as rare as devotion-
Forgive us our cynical thought
e m o t i o n
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
d e t e c t o r
rdesc@conncoll.edu ryan eschauzier 97 860 439 4799
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 02:24:46 -0800
From: trevorw@ms.kallback.com
Subject: RE: how'd *you* get sucked in?
Message-ID: <199612181024.CAA00062@ms.kallback.com>
heh, heh, you said "sucked"
Around four years ago when I lived in L.A. I went out to lunch with a
co-worker. He popped IAW into his cd player, advanced to track 5, and said
"Have you heard this band?". So after Metropolis blew me away he said
"They're playing tomorrow night at the Troubadour (small club)". So of
course, I went and the rest, they say, is history.
I saw them again in Anaheim (by Disneyland) and here in Seattle with FW.
Still waiting for them to return.................
Trevor W. Hoit ¸
You've thrown it all away, and now we'll never see.........what was meant to
be.
"Alone You Breathe"-Savatage
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 5:32:15 EST
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: The future...
Message-ID: <9612181032.AA22323@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
4000 subscribers? god, imagine how many Jams per day we'd get.
As to whether or not we'd stick by DT, it would probably depend on if they
stayed true to the music, or if they sold out to continue their success.
And sorry, Augie, I don't think Take away my Pain will be a huge hit. The
market will never give that to DT, because they're too busy scoffing at prog
rock to notice. The song is in a major key anyway. Don't you all know that
the songs of the 90s must be in a minor key to be hits. (Before you respond,
realize that that last comment is a joke). Anyway, I don't know if TAMP will
be a hit, but I highly doubt. Beautiful song, but it sounds too ...... 80s?
Too balladish. Hell, if I am wrong, I'll be greatful that I am wrong, but I
work in radio, partly, and I understand how things work somewhat, and I just
don't think it will happen.
And by the way, 11 posts? At least I am saying something useful in at least
.. 4 of them.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 5:41:43 EST
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Damon and his snot.
Message-ID: <9612181041.AA10210@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
No, I never touched my snots after releasing them from the bonds of my rather
large nose, (most of the jammers who met me at Bh can testify about my honker
that takes up 85 percent of my face). Rest assured, I don't touch or eat that
stuff, I throw the waste product away. I am not that gross.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 6:04:10 EST
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Birch Hill/Rush Question
Message-ID: <9612181104.AA03761@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
DT did not play any Rush at the BH96 show. The sound guys put disk 2 or
Chroncles on the PA after DT left the stage. From Passage to Bangkok on
through Time Stands Still at least. Sorry, DT played no Rsuh at the show.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 96 6:13:41 EST
From: "Damon M. Fibraio" <s0067977@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Actual Replies To Damon
Message-ID: <9612181113.AA10421@hawkmail.monmouth.edu>
Bafu, Bafu, Bafu. If it weren't 6:00 a.m., I'd have some whitty comment to
your really long post with responses to only my posts, some of which were
posted while in a deranged frame of mind. i don't really know if you were
flaming me or not. Let's just put this whole thing to rest and explain to the
jammers the truth. We have a respect for each other. We love to kid with each
other. We both understand that it's not to be taken completely seriously.
Yes, Bafu says some things sometimes that get under my skin, but in the long
run, I respect Bafuvai and I never spoke to the guy inperson or heard his
guitar playing. Hell, you should see us on IRC, when we are actually on
together. You'd think we hated each other. There is no friction, at least on
my end. Now maybe Bafu hates me, and if that's the case, then ... that's the
case. But I love Bafu's response to my posts and I laugh at the things he
says. He's a whitty guy. Bafu, you don't need that thesaurus. Hell, repeat
those five words you know as much as possible. :) Anyway, there is no tension
or friction on my end with Bafu. Now, let's see how he responds to this.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:21:30 +0100
From: Bernd Basmer <basmer@med-rz.uni-sb.de>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: SUPERIOR URL's
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961218112130.006eae44@krzsun.med-rz.uni-sb.de>
HI!
>From: "Mike Patrick" <mepatrick@iquest.net>
>Subject: Superior URL?
>Hey, a while back someone posted a URL for Superior that had samples from
>each of 'Behind's songs. I can't find the site now. Can anyone help?
You can check out the following URL's for Superior samples:
http://gaia.owl.de/~fine/superior.html
http://www.rmi.de/~marvin/superior.html
http://www.startext.net/homes/jskewes/superior.html
http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/~goebel/sup.html
Thanks...
Bye.
Bernd.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | Bernd Basmer |
| _O_ | Zentrum fuer Informations- und |
| <*,*> | Kommunikationstechnik |
| [( )] | 66424 Homburg/Saar |
| -"-"- | |
| Doc Owl | Tel.: 06841/162166 |
| | Fax : 06841/162463 |
| | Email: basmer@med-rz.uni-sb.de |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 05:58:30 -0600 (CST)
From: John Mastin <johnny@psa.pencom.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Boot beg
Message-ID: <199612181158.FAA07519@psa.pencom.com>
Sorry to do this when have been asked not to....
If anyone has a boot of the '96 BH show, please email me. Got some coolies to
trade.
Favorite lines from the DT Xmas CD:
MP: John Myung, what would you like for Christmas this year?
(jingle bells in the background)
JM: What would I like....
MP: Silence takes over the room.
JM: I would like silence.
(laughter and jingle bells)
MP: I'm afraid you're not going to get that.
Neil and the guys, you're tops! Did anyone notice that the CD's were numbered on
the right hand side of the CD with a set of initials under it? In gold paint
pen? Co-inky-dink? Hmmm.......
Johnny Motown
______________
John Mastin, Jr. johnny@pencom.com
Pencom Systems Administration
"The best way to live life is to REALIZE that you're living it."
-Mike Bahr
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 05:06:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Younis Youssef Hilal <yhilal@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Supermarket receipt;misc;circuit-board ?
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.93.961218042009.25923D-100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>
On Mon, 16 Dec 1996 ytsejam@ax.com wrote:
> From: nga@software-ag.de (Neil Gallop)
>
> 3. I went to the supermarket on Saturday, and when I paid at the check out, the
> bill came to exactly...DM 21,09. Ha ha, fooled you all.
Heheh...funny you should mention that. Here's what happened last time I
went to the supermarket (Andronico's).
Fri., 12/13/96, 4:17 p.m.
Coast Soap (x2; I'm sort of a hygiene freak) $2.53
Crest toothpaste (FRESH MINT GEL, BABY!!!!) $2.49
Sprite 12-pak (this is what I drink when I'm not really doing anything,
AKA "leisure drink") $4.49
Mountain Dew 12-pak (this is what I drink when I'm working on something
and need to stay up late, AKA "working drink") $4.49
Kleenex (3-ply, baby!!!! got tired of blowing holes thru tissues and
getting snot all over my fingers plus whoever happened to be standing in
front of me) $0.99
Old Spice (High endurance, fresh scent, and I know you really give a shit)
$1.99
Tax (in CA, = 8.25%; isn't that outrageous?) $1.61
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grand Total-------------------------------> $21.12
So what's the deal? Do I win the lottery or something?
And no, I wasn't calculating this before I went up to the cashier; I just
picked out what I wanted, tossed it in the shopping-cart and VOILA!!!!
(Shopping-carts rule!)
I don't think I'll ever get tired of this 2112 thread. I LOVE
numbers!!!!!
Anyway, now we got me posting supermarket receipt totals to the Jam. Has
this place hit the pits or what?
On to other points of debate and how I vote:
AH is not equal to TLF
Guitarists vs. keyboardists: I don't know about this one. Both guitars
and keyboards make pretty good weapons. I mean, I've killed people using
both, so for me it's too close to call (although I remember once slugging
a guy in the head with a keyboard [I got him GOOD too!!!] and that single
blow put him in the hospital).
OK, now a serious question. This is for anybody who's messed with
electric circuit-boards (I'm just a mechanical engineering major myself).
You know how in electronic appliances that come
from the factory (computers, walkmans, etc.) the circuit board is usually
a dark green color (at least on the ones I've seen). Just the other day,
though, I was looking at one and noticed for the first time these light-
green lines running all over the dark-green board. They seemed to connect
all the devices on the board (chips, capacitors, etc.). Do these light-
green lines indicate the conduction paths between one device and the
other? In other words, can I visualize these lines as copper wires
running underneath the board's dark-green paint?
(OK, TWO questions.)
This has gotten long enough.
Younis Hilal-------------------------------yhilal@uclink.berkeley.edu
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2127
**************************
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