YTSEJAM digest 1654

Date: Sun Jun 30 1996 - 09:18:27 EDT

  • Next message: "YTSEJAM digest 1653"

                                YTSEJAM Digest 1654

    Today's Topics:

      1) Selling Out? Whatever...
     by Michael Van Opstall <>
      2) Linear Cows
     by Ben Laussade <>
      3) feelings............not war!!!!!!!!
      4) Things
     by The Digital Man <>
      5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1653
     by Mark Smeets <>
      6) Kev's vs. James's voice
     by zebrowski steven <>
      7) ytsejam
     by (Steven R. Hargraves)
      8) hgsd;ljasfdhds;agjsda
     by RipZero <>
      9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 1653
     by Chris Oates <>
     10) Sorry!
     by Chris Oates <>


    Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:51:47 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Michael Van Opstall <>
    Subject: Selling Out? Whatever...
    Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.90.960629194154.12249A@smaug>

    Here's a big post after a long dry spell...

    I've been thinking lately about this business of thinking a group is
    cool/sucks for non-musical reasons. How long has this business of
    "selling out" been going on? In my limited experience, I don't remember
    the musical climate ever being so concerned about "credibility."

    If an artist changes his style because he wants to, but in doing so turns
    away most of his fans, why is this considered selling out? If a band
    sells 8 million copies of one album, and then changes their sound, that's
    selling out? (purely hypothetical situation).

    I guess the concern is not so much selling out as the credibility issue.
    If a band is not "underground" enough, many people will turn away. This
    is where we get a contradiction. People say they want DT to get immensely
    popular, because it would ensure that DT keeps making good music and
    lives off it. Right now, groups like King's X and Galactic Cowboys are on
    their last legs, and thinking that one of my favorite bands might
    disappear, even though they've certainly got good songs left in them is

    However, it has been said on the jam before, that it's nice to like a
    band like DT that isn't so popular, to kind of "posess" a band. Many
    jammers are the only DT fans in their neighborhoods (or states (or
    nations...)) and would love to hear DT on the radio or see them on MTV. I
    personally have never heard DT on the radio. But every so often I feel
    that if DT got popular, maybe I wouldn't be such a fan.

    Think about DTs next album. It's been said that it will be more
    commercial (whatever that means) than the other albums. If the new sound
    turns people off, that's one thing, but what if DT suddenly becomes
    immensely popular, even with an album that's more progressive than ever
    (magically!). I know some people that would be turned off, just to seem
    more "underground" or "punk" (bad choice of words).

    I hope that DT does what they want on the next album, and don't just
    write songs to get paid. I trust that they will. I hope I like it as
    well, as well as all of you. It would be great to see another album with
    shining jam reviews like ACOS. If there's some radio play or MTV stuff,
    so much the better for DT. They deserve it.

    End of spiel. Carry on.

    Michael A. Van Opstall --


    Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:33:11 -0700
    From: Ben Laussade <>
    Subject: Linear Cows
    Message-ID: <>

    >getting kicked by skadz (ala
    >Keu) )

    Keu was kicked? Alright Skadzmeister! :-)

    >Imagine Van Halen embarks on their tour to support the greastest hits cd
    >being released in the late fall.....It'll be the largest tour in
    >years....because of all the hype with DLR in the group......what if DT
    >could hook up with the tour for a leg or two, once the new album is

    Only if it were a double headliner. I am mega-opposed to seeing DT as an
    opening act.

    >Secondly, I must say, from the bottom of my heart and with no IMO's or
    >smileys, that if you live in New York, then you suck. You just suck. That's
    >all there is to it. If any of you pass up the opportunity to go to Derek
    >Sherinian's birthday party then you, like, suck to the 10th power. ARGHHH!!!!

    I second that emotion. You can party much harder and longer in Vegas.

    >It certainly wouldn't mean that the ENTIRE band would sound like Dennis
    >Chambers, surely. But neither is it something to slough off -- Portnoy, in
    >my opinion, sounds more like Peart than any other drummer.

    I say Simon Phillips.

    >And time changes in aggressive music
    >marked by imaginative arrangement, sharp lyrics, and outstanding playing?
    >How much similarity are you asking for? gave me examples of how DT's playing styles are the same as
    Rush's. Now give me examples of how the actual MUSIC is alike..say, name a
    DT song and a Rush song that sound alike, or a part of a song from each
    band. I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, just curious to find what I've missed.

    >i think petrucci is perhaps the "feelings" guy in the band.

    Speaking of which, I read some guitar magazine a few months ago that JP is
    writing more from the heart for this album. He said that himself, but I
    didn't use quotes because I can't remember the exact wording. Dees could be
    bewwy bewwy interesteeng...

    >but has anyone
    >listened to portnoy and myung(notice correct spelling this time) and felt
    >convinced that it was all sequenced? i sure as hell have. they do things
    >quite well beyond the capabilities of most humans, that you are left thinking
    >that, i think.

    I dunno about Myung...but playing along to Portnoy stuff, or just jamming
    with one of his beats sure is a helluva lot of fun. I think he said himself
    that he enjoys boggling people's minds. :-)

    Rip? Band title: Insanity. Song title: "A Song Cows Like"

            This way we get taken seriously, and still get our bovine fix.

    >The next time I see him I look in the case of CDs he brought over and
    >see crap like Weezer, Green Day, blah, and then I come upon I&W and Awake
    >and then I see some Queensryche. I was feeling pretty cool knowing that a
    >Junior High kid likes DT.

    What am I? Chopped liver? No wait...I'm a freshman now.

    >All kidding aside, should it matter if you're the only Jammer
    >that does? I personally can't stand them, but I'm not gonna call be like
    >"you suck cuz you like Oasis."


    >It'd be wierd without beer... commercial.

    >Pull My Finger
    >(lyrics by Shane Carey, music by Dream Theater,
    >catering by Meatloaf)

    That one never gets old. :-)

    THANKS to Scott Daugherty and Buster for answering my Cacophony
    question....even though they both gave opposite answers. :-)

    >I think that may have to do more with the production on those studio records.
    >When I hear live bootlegs of LTL and ACOS(old version), Portnoy plays with
    >an unbelievable amount of emotion and dynamics that it almost brings me to
    >tears - you can just feel those live versions build and bulid and to me its
    >not so
    >much Petrucci's playing as it is Portnoy's drums.

    Anything off of I&W is better live (drumwise), because (like he said)
    there's absolutely no snare dynamics due to the trigger, except for the few
    ghost notes on LtL. I also like The Killing Hand much better live. It just
    builds and builds. I love building. :-)

    >How does one get OFF this mailing list???

    You have to sell your soul to Skadz.

    >But maybe you're talking about tasteful note selection, clever repeated lines,
    >flatted fifth bends, and other "feeling" devices. Do you really think that
    someone who
    >utilizes these techniques really has more emotion as a person or really
    conveys more
    >emotion as a musician?

    Good point....maybe John Petrucci has no emotion whatsoever, and has just
    become so good that he can make the music sound emotional without feeling
    anything himself. And, given the subject matter of ACoS, I'm willing to bet
    that that song carries some emotional value for Mr. Portnoy.

    Being laughed at and confused keeps us pleasantly amused enough to stay.

    And I listen openly....
    Ben Laussade


    Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:00:35 -0400
    Subject: feelings............not war!!!!!!!!
    Message-ID: <>

    wow. i didn't think i'd start a new thread.
    god, i feel so damn cool. #1 fan de los teatro de los suenos i am.

    feelings. ok, i will try to this without incurring wraths or anything like
    that. one by one.

    eliot kim (hopefully i spelled your name correct unlike i usually do with mp)
    wrote this:
    <Hmm... The way I see it with DT, these guys care so much about what they do
    that they set out to do it as best they can. I see their superhuman chops as
    a byproduct of their expression of their love for music. Nothing against you
    dude, but I just don't see how technically proficient = devoid of emotion.>

    i NEVER intended what i said to sound like they don't care about what they
    set out do musically, nor did i mean to equate technical proficiency with a
    lack of emotion. so let's get all those perverted, dirty thoughts out of
    yours and anyone else's minds. it has been said that dt lacks feelings. i
    don't necessarily have to subscribe to that pov, but yes, i understand what
    they mean, perhaps. maybe i don't know why, but i think i do.

    steve vai is a great guitarist. anyone hear flex-able, the song "call it
    sleep"? that is an excellent example of someone with monsterous chops (if you
    haven't heard this, either go hear it, or go to bed) with feeling. he
    explodes on that, and i love that track. i just swear that when i hear
    portnoy and myung, i wonder about them. i like it (at times i like their
    stuff a lot), but i wonder nonetheless.

    next up, master daugherty writes:
    <David the mystical potato head crack thing said this:

    <<speaking of feeling, someone who has plenty of that, tori amos. that
    unplugged had some of her best and worst playing ever. any of you tori

    <Does breathing heavily and moaning constitute plenty of feeling? I agree
    that some of her stuff is moving, but perhaps for other reasons. Please

    personally, i don't dig the breathing and moans she does. but here is what i
    dig: on "bfp", the song "blood roses", near the end, when she sings, "come
    on, come on..." in that raspy voice. i LOVE THAT. some emotion is being
    portrayed by her, and i am interpreting it somehow. but tori kinda turned me
    off with her unplugged show, so maybe i shouldn't be speaking about her. so
    yes, there is more i think beyond her gasms on stage.

    ps- what up, scott. been a long time since we spoke. peace out, g.

    mr. mike olekshy then chimes in:

    <I think that may have to do more with the production on those studio
    records.When I hear live bootlegs of LTL and ACOS(old version), Portnoy plays
    with an unbelievable amount of emotion and dynamics that it almost brings me
    to tears - you can just feel those live versions build and bulid and to me
    its not so much Petrucci's playing as it is Portnoy's drums.>

    good point. maybe you are correct about the production (but production talks
    have started wars hear, so i won't go there). and live, yes, i totally agree
    with you about that it sounds "soulful" or something. but again, they do
    different little things live. maybe it's "musical maturation" or "trying to
    do something far out with a boring piece". it may be as subtle as poetrucci
    bending notes, or as noticeable as portnoy going apeshit on "lie", but yes,
    they a lot better live. who adds more feeling can be debated, but i like your
    response. bravo!

    finally, brian wherry, the crackhead they call wacky wrote a very long and
    eloquent letter on emotion in music (excerpts only):

    <So who should we look to as being musicians that play with "lots of
    emotion?" Musicians who play BADLY?>

    very good question, but as i mentioned earlier, i disagree. here are some
    damn good musicians with mucho sentimentos last time i checked: peter
    gabriel, prince, jimi hendrix, steve howe, kevin moore, tori amos, joe
    satriani, steve vai, john coltrane, miles davis.

    the list goes on.

    petrucci "playing some blues licks and doing bends" doesn't NECESSARILY make
    him the "feelings guy" (cool term). but it beats better than nothing. again,
    i get the impression that you read my comments as saying "i don't like
    portnoy or myung b/c they lack emotion." I NEVER SAID THAT. yes, they are
    amazing musicians.

    <So unless you're an empath and you can feel what they're feeling, you really
    can't "hear" the emotion in their playing, not matter
    how mechanical it may sound.
     But maybe you're talking about tasteful note selection, clever repeated
    lines, flatted fifth bends, and other "feeling" devices. Do you really think
    that someone who utilizes these techniques really has more emotion as a
    person or really conveys more emotion as a musician? Maybe you do.>

    i did not especially intend this to get technical. yes, note selections,
    phrasing and articulation, and myriad other things can help, but again, if we
    were to get technical, i'm sure between you and i we can spit 2375982759356
    devices of feeling. let's not. we all have better things in life than do that

    here's how i will try to sum up my feelings (what a pun!) on the matter:
    i was at a recital, and it turns out, 2 people ended up playing the same
    piece, chopin waltz in b minor. the first person, played it very well, but
    something was lacking. the notes were all there. but it lacked dynamics, a
    sense of phrase. the second person, also played it well (she did make a
    mistake or two in one part), but she phrased and just had such a wonderful
    sense of dynamics, that i had to like hers better than the first (although
    maybe she could've been shot for the fuck-ups. kidding!).

    enough. i really dig the intelligent responses, and i invite those above to
    respond to me personally, and i invite others to share their views .again, to
    reiterate, i never said i thought mp, jm, or anyone in dt suck b/c they lack
    emotion. if i did, i wouldn't be here. simple as that. peace out, g's.

    david yoichi kobayashi
    the wild and magical koba.

    "i bring truth and understanding, i bring wit and wisdom fair. precious gifts
    beyond compare." -n. peart

    until the circle breaks, and wisdom lies ahead, the faithful live Awake, the
    rest remain misled." -j. petrucci

    binghamton university, music and philosophy


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:00:09 -0400 (EDT)
    From: The Digital Man <>
    To: Ytse Jam <>
    Subject: Things
    Message-ID: <>

    Ah, finally, I've returned back to Vermont. From my parents' place in
    NY, I really can't cut n paste and reply to whole jams at once. It's
    good to be back in the saddle. Oh, and see y'all on IRC soon. :)

    > From: Phillip Scott Kish <>
    > Subject: Pointless Stuff
    > A story about how I converted an alternative freak in a DT fan:

    I love stories like this! Mojo and I converted our friend Mike in a
    similar fashion, but it was more by beating him over the head with DT
    stuff. Finally, one day, one of us played him "6:00" and "Caught in a
    Web" and he was like, "Whoa! This stuff rocks! How come you've never
    played me *this* stuff?" Now he owns Awake and ACoS and is looking for
    I&W on cassette. :)


    > From: (Carlo D'Angelo ) > Subject: ***ATTENTION NYC JAMMERS*** (Prog-Nite) > > Hey Jammers....Carlo here > (otherwise known as "Fates" or "Ytse-Satan" on IRC)

    It's good to see more old-school Jammers coming back.

    > I just have to let everyone know in the NYC area that the first > Wednesday of every month is Prog-Nite at the Rock 'n Roll Cafe (149 > Bleeker Street).

    New York is definitely the best place on earth to live. I miss it already.


    > From: (Elliott Kim) > Subject: Name That Tune, Funky-Fresh Feelings, etc. > > I agree wholeheartedly... But someone's probably gonna bitch aboout you > bitching about someone bitching about someone bitching about this crap. ;)

    Damn, I'm dizzy.

    > You don't have to be in the cultural/social abyss of a place like ARKVILLE

    You forgot the (tm). :)

    > to be able to do that. In all seriousness, no matter how much you keep > things the same in the recording environment for each song, there will > invariably be timbral differences, however slight they may be, they do > exist. So an F# that JP hits in one song with his lead sound will still > sound different than the F# he hits (with probably the same amp settings, > played in the same place on the fretboard, etc) in another song.

    Yeah, but if he played an F sharp instead...


    > From: Gregory A Larson <> > Subject: Post?? > > Does anyone out there trade DT tapes?? I am trying to find people to

    Naaahhhhh. Won't find that here. :)


    > From: John Dea <> > Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1649 > > Okay, okay, I won't do that anymore. I had some new lyrics for "Wait for > Sheep", but I guess now it would be a baaaaaad idea to post them d-8 I > don't want to get your goat, Skadz, nor am I trying to pull the wool over > your eyes. Ah well, it could've been a fun thread... (-8

    Fortunately a stitch in time saves nine. But that's a horse of a different color.


    > From: scottwe@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Edward Scott) > Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1652 > > How does one get OFF this mailing list???

    Roaches check in, but they don't check out. Mwahahahahaha...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart


    Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:07:07 PST From: Mark Smeets <> To: Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1653 Message-ID: <>

    ** Reply to note from 06/29/96 3:42pm -0700

    Jason Becker also plays on Marty's Solo Album Dragon's Kiss, which by the way, is a kick ass cd. The last song on that cd was carried over to scenes and made into an acoustic version, which is very cool. Jason's solos were great on Dragon's, if you don't got it, get it, its pretty available.

    Anyone want me to bring something back from the Scorpions/Alice Cooper concert? I'll see if I can somehow get a small tape recorder inside. 1ST ROW WHOOHOOO :)


    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\| "To each his own and his own be damned" or


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:55:53 -0400 (EDT) From: zebrowski steven <> To: Subject: Kev's vs. James's voice Message-ID: <>

    I feel I must leap to JLB's defense <again>...

    This kind of thing happens all the time. Every time a good technical singer comes along in the world of popular music, people invariably don't like him or her. To the ignorant masses, the technical singer is just "hiding behind a skill." Take the three Tenors, for example. My brother "the actor" likes Jose Carreras the best. He seems to be the least technical, but he has the most..."nnngggyyaaAAAHHH!," if you know what I mean. Myself, "the singer," I prefer Pavarotti, for his seemingly effortless production. To those unfamiliar with the technique of singing, the quality to which they adh trauma <which he usually is!>, it better sound painful! Not that there is anything wrong with that. Those who can appreciate the difficulty of singing the last line of ACoS in chest voice THAT high can also appreciate that the singer probably used the lyrics to INSPIRE himself play his instument as well as possible.

    This goes right up there with the Petrucci argument. However, in John's own words, "Playing complex music is just our way of expressing ourselves." What more need be said?

    Ben Laussade was right though, Kevin DOES sing from his heart. And he sounds fine.

    I hate it so much when people say that you cant be an emotional musician if you play music that's too complex. Anyone who ever has studied music knows that equal time is spent on technique and emotion. The more advanced the student, the more emphasis placed on emotion.

    Thanks for listening, everyone. Sorry about yet another post from me that mentions the three Tenors! Incedentally, my friend who is both an actor AND a singer says that Placido Domingo is the king.

    Steve Z


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:07:51 -0500 From: (Steven R. Hargraves) To: Subject: ytsejam Message-ID: <>

    Please take me off of your mailing list.

    Thank you.

    Steven R. Hargraves

    \\\\|//// / - - \ (| (')o(') |) \ ~ / -=-=-ooo-=-=ooo=-=-=-=

    \|/ ____ \|/ Peace, Love, and Good Happiness Stuff, \|/ ____ \|/ "@'/ ,. \`@" Steven R. Hargraves "@'/ ,. \`@" /_| \__/ |_\ /_| \__/ |_\ \__U_/ \__U_/ mmmm '' .) C__ / \~~/ _||_ /| |\ ||__|| w || w || || == ==


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:37:50 -0500 From: RipZero <> To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <> Subject: hgsd;ljasfdhds;agjsda Message-ID: <>

    it kinda rules to be up at 3:37 am and have nothing to do so you decide to post to the jam just saying a whole bunch of crap about nothing cuz it just kinda gives ya something to do.

    late nite #ytsejam is cool

    ok, bye ~Rip


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 06:10:14 -0700 From: Chris Oates <> To: Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 1653 Message-ID: <>

    >Does breathing heavily and moaning constitute plenty of feeling? I agree that >some of her stuff is moving, but perhaps for other reasons. Please elaborate.

    Yes, it does, unless she's faking it.

    (hey, taken in cointext that isn't a sick comment at all!)

    >> has anyone >>listened to portnoy and myung(notice correct spelling this time) and felt >>convinced that it was all sequenced? i sure as hell have.

    The TA for my intro theory & Comp class was convinced that Portnoy was a drum machine after I played UAGM for my section. Foolish as I was, I didn't say the proper Ytse-Response, "no, the proper term is drum GOD."

    >How does one get OFF this mailing list???

    Have you tried rubbing it harder?

    (yes, that was a sick comment)

    Like it or not it's the dinner you'll eat And at odd with your taste-buds you'll dine But if salt is your answer I've already used it, And is flavor's a sign, then it's only a matter of Thyme.

    Thank you, thank you, please don't shoot.

    __ /\ __ +-------------------------------------+ __\/__\/__ | ~Chris |-+ \_||_/ | For a boring homepage, web to: | | /__||__\ | | | // \ | \\ +-------------------------------------+ | \| +-------------------------------------+


    Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 06:11:32 -0700 From: Chris Oates <> To: Subject: Sorry! Message-ID: <>

    ack forgot to correct the subject line. My last message should have been titled: "Ways to Save the Universe, part 14 section 3a subsection 12" -- sorry for the previous ambiguity.

    __ /\ __ +-------------------------------------+ __\/__\/__ | ~Chris |-+ \_||_/ | For a boring homepage, web to: | | /__||__\ | | | // \ | \\ +-------------------------------------+ | \| +-------------------------------------+


    End of YTSEJAM Digest 1654 **************************

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