YTSEJAM Digest 2009
Today's Topics:
1) dancing red lights
by "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET>
2) NDTC - Billy Sheehan
by Eddy M <edrock@connexus.apana.org.au>
3) cont. music theory
by m_washke@acad.lvc.edu (Michael Washkevich)
4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008
by "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@mail.gnn.com>
5) Re: Taping Shows
by drkhoe@gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
6) Kudos...
by drkhoe@gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
7) Music Theory, My Last Name
by Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu>
8) birch hill DT tickets
by ReaLiTy iMPaiReD <slowhand@wam.umd.edu>
9) Music Theory Finals
by "IbnzRG570" <ibanez@mailhost.cyberhighway.net>
10) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008
by Michael Shawn Fainn <mfainn@mindspring.com>
11) Re: kun fu-zing
by William T Bajzek <wb2a+@andrew.cmu.edu>
12)
by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
13)
by
14) Re: Taping Shows
by Wronskian <polzin@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu>
15) g3
by Wronskian <polzin@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu>
16) theory/JM's playing
by "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET>
17) Music Theory
by 99ABEL@alma.edu
18) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008
by Madelaine <maddy@enteract.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:23:24 +0000
From: "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: dancing red lights
Message-ID: <199611100636.AAA10058@Walden.MO.NET>
I must say that I agree that a dancing red light in a crowd can be a
clue to security that someone's illegally taping the show. That's
how this chick in a gypsy costume at the Halloween Rush show got
busted. Not exactly being what I'd call very secretive.
Dale R. Newberry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:54:12 -0800
From: Eddy M <edrock@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: NDTC - Billy Sheehan
Message-ID: <32867934.579D@connexus.apana.org.au>
The bass master is doing a clinic here in Melbourne, Australia on Monday
11/11. If there are any Aussie Jammers out there who are going, please
email me privately to arrange chat and beer session.
Eddy
--------------------------------------
* EDDY M *
Beat Magazine
Rock n Hard column
Melbourne, Australia
--------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 23:16:22 -0800 (PST)
From: m_washke@acad.lvc.edu (Michael Washkevich)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: cont. music theory
Message-ID: <199611100716.XAA26259@pawn.ax.com>
I was going to post some more on the subject but found this post to be so
beautiful, I thought I would reprint it for those who missed it the first
time, or would just like to enjoy it again. Then- of course add some more on
my own.
any time you close your mind to a potential learning
experience is bad. especially when you're talking about learning
music theory. i've been playing keys since i was 3 years old (i'm 23
now). i consider myself to be decent player, but unfortunately i
never learned the theory. it *is* very hard to communicate with
fellow musicians when you have to relay each note in a chord because
you're not exactly sure what the chord name is. theory also teaches
you what notes fit where, and helps tremendously with song
arrangements. there's no end to it's benefits. i've finally started
learning a bit here and there over the last five years and i've
definitely noticed a difference in my writing. it's not that it is
something i am consciously thinking of while writing; it shouldn't
be; takes away the spontaneity; it's something that'll eventually
be burned into your brain and there for your use on a subconscious
level when you're simply jamming and creating new material.
I've been a student of music theory since I started learning to play
percussion and guitar, and none of my friends and peers without the theory
could ever play like those who figured, "if I'm going to do this, I might as
well do it right." McCartney pulled it off for a while, then had to learn as
he went. C'mon, how much thought went into Love Me Do? OK, now how much more
thought went into Elanor Rigby? (Hey he wrote alright, but do we really look
back and say, "Wow, Paul did great things to bass guitar playing. What an
evolutionary player."?) Training does wonders for writing, improvising,
arranging, etc. Hey, if you want to limit yourself, thats cool. It's like
being an artist and saying, "for the rest of my career, I wont use the
colors red and blue." Why limit yourself? As an artist, don't you want to
expand your artistic boundaries as much as possible? Of course learning
theory at first sucks. Hey, its work. Cracking a book for anything,
including music, blows. I wish I could just sit around and strum barre
chords all day, but I'd like to make a better musician out of myself. Call
me shallow for wanting something more than mediocrity. Picking up the guitar
isn't always going to be me having fun. Sometimes its work too. A lot of
people are scared to cross that line. "You mean I'll have to THINK about
playing? Like PRACTICE?" Yeah it sucks- But the rewards make it all
worthwhile. Imagine if some of the infamous musically illiterate artists of
the past three decades had training. The things they could have done just
irritates me. What could have been. Oh well.
Mike Washkevich
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 01:41:12 +0000
From: "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@mail.gnn.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008
Message-ID: <199611100733.CAA26105@mail-e2b.gnn.com>
> There's this guy who I consider to be a phenominal songwriter. He's
> been playing for about 30 years and plays piano. He has hardly taken
> a piano lesson in his life and can't read conventional music well, if
> not at all. He has toured the world several times and played in
> larger arenas, and sold out larger crowds than our beloved Dream
> Theater. Like it or not, this guy's not a theory wiz, and writes
> some of the most beautiful music 14 million people have ever heard.
> He can't be all that bad can he?
i believe you're referring to Yanni, correct? hope so. otherwise
this post will be pointless. the man is phenomenally talented.
*but*, and i do emphasize *but*, he's a prodigy. no normal musican
can, without formal training, teach themselves to play the way he
does and write the complex arrangements that he does. if you're a
prodigy, more power to you. but learning theory can help. it's not
a necessity, but it can help.
and btw, measuring a musician's fan base is no indication of their
ability. more fans simply means the music is more accessible to the
mass public. doesn't mean it's better or worse.
and as far as saying you want to write something original? it can't
be done. with only 12 notes to work with, it's impossible to come up
with a completely original line of music. people have been composing
for thousands of years.
my advice to you, for whatever it's worth, is to write what comes
naturally. by trying to write something completely original and new,
it's easy to try and force things, losing your natural flow. don't
force it. don't try and change it. just write it as it comes to
you.
> I'm confused as to how to pronounce some of the Jammers' names. No
well, i'll help you out with mine, 'cause it's a real bitch. just
think "beer".....
it kinda sucks though, because the beer that carries my name
thoroughly disgusts me. my last name should've been Bass, Guinnes,
Heineken, Harp or Beck. :)
Andrew Miller - Keyboardist/Vocalist - subtlerage
http://members.gnn.com/subtlerage - subtlerage@gnn.com
for wav files, surf to http://members.gnn.com/subtlerage/intersam.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 23:40:10 -0800
From: drkhoe@gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Taping Shows
Message-ID: <199611100740.XAA27418@ gmsnet.com>
On the Eve of Destruction, Chris DiGiuseppe said:
>I just have a question today...
> Does John Petrucci really despise bootlegs and the people who
>make them? Why? I mean, almost all of DT's fans are absolute fanatics who
>are going to buy the album on the shelf, plus anything else they can get
>their hands on, right? So what's up? I'm just kind of curious.
James too... personally... I think they should just allow tapers! That
would kill the bootleg market and people would trade more!
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% *$%&%#$* Global Micro Solutions #$#$#@@# *$*$*$*# Reality Enhancement Software - Engineering Reality *$&#*#@$ #$@#$#@# http://www.gmsnet.com/progmetal @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 23:45:10 -0800 From: drkhoe@gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Kudos... Message-ID: <199611100745.XAA27484@ gmsnet.com>
I'd just like to say that I'm not personally offended by anybody about the whole trade thing, it is my fault for not getting the one video out in due time... I admit it... and I would like to say hey to the great Mike Bahr, running to my defense although probably unwarranted... he's the man... I'm sure most of you who've met Mike know that he's a killer dude...
Anyways... a few words on Brian Cox, he does take a LOOONG time sometimes to get his tapes out, but he does get them out eventually... I only waited half a year for some tapes he owed me, but hey... I'm one to talk, right?
By the way, he's currently really busy running around taping Rush... I'll be taping Rush her in Los Angeles on the 26th of Nov. ANyone who's interested in taping let me know... I'll let you know on what to get started... me, Brian, and Mike have been at it for a while... and sometimes my collection still looks tiny in comparison to those two guys...
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% *$%&%#$* Global Micro Solutions #$#$#@@# *$*$*$*# Reality Enhancement Software - Engineering Reality *$&#*#@$ #$@#$#@# http://www.gmsnet.com/progmetal @#$@##@$
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:17:04 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Borzilleri <magellan@u.washington.edu> To: Dream Thespians <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Music Theory, My Last Name Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95b.961109234034.39634C-100000@homer10.u.washington.edu>
> From: Jim Beavens <jbeavens@ichips.intel.com> > Subject: Re: OaMoT, Chris P vs. Bafu, and assholes > > On another note, re: Chris P's flame to Bafu and ensuing tirade against > theory-brandishing jerks, when I read Bafu's statement that set you off > so bad, I got the distinct impression that his tongue was planted > firmly in cheek.
What are you talking about? How dare you get that impression. I'm 100% serious at least 40% of the time.
> It seems that Bafu is backed up on jams quite a bit (he always > seems to reply to old threads), so I'm assuming he hasn't responded yet > cuz he hasn't seen your response, but go back and read his "double > fanucci" statement again and see if you can't detect a little sarcasm. > All those terms sounded made-up to me,
(insert "heavenly choir" sound here)
> and it wouldn't be the first time somebody took his sarcasm seriously > (hell, that's how he's gotten to be so famous on the jam =). Just > trying to douse the flames a bit, although I would welcome any > corrections if I'm wrong. ;)
"Ottava" is a real musical term. Otherwise, that list of terms was purely amusical.
---- > From: "IbnzRG570" <ibanez@mailhost.cyberhighway.net> > Subject: Re: music theory > > Just let me point something out to you...
"Your hair is on fire."
> There's this guy who I consider to be a phenominal songwriter. He's > been playing for about 30 years and plays piano. He has hardly taken a > piano lesson in his life and can't read conventional music well, if not > at all.
Sounds like either Eddie Van Halen or Yanni... And since Eddie Van Halen can read music......
---- > From: durnik <durnik@goodnet.com> > Subject: Confused? > > I'm confused as to how to pronounce some of the Jammers' names. No > offense intended, I know it happens everywhere. > > Bafu, is it boar-ZIL-luhr-ree, bor-zuh-LEER-ee, or what?
Actually, you're the first person who's ever had a question about my last name. Are you stupid or something? :)
If you wish to be a genuine American, "Borzilleri" is pronounced
bor-zih-LER-ree
However, if you wish to sound somewhat Italian, it's pronounced
bor-zee-LAY-ree
and requires some extra emphasis. Hang on the third syllable, it lasts twice as long as the others. The name rises sharply in volume on the third syllable, then drops back down to normal on the fourth syllable. As your vocal volume suddenly (explosively) increases, you simultaneously raise your hand as if you're upwardly smacking someone to your right underneath their chin. Then casually drop your hand back down to match your decreasing vocal volume. Then reward yourself with a Gatorade after all that work. ;)
My favorite is where some silly girl (that's not sexist, it's ALWAYS a girl who shouts this yogurt flavor) asks me what my last name is, and I reply with "Borzilleri" and they exclaim with gleeful condescension,
"BOYSENBERRY?!"
I know my ears can detect a few sounds here and there that other people can't, but voluntarily distorting your listening skills like this deserves punishment.
> Mike Bahr (pronounced "bar")
You mean it isn't BAH-hurr?
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 03:31:12 -0500 (EST) From: ReaLiTy iMPaiReD <slowhand@wam.umd.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: birch hill DT tickets Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961110033045.13977A-100000@rac3.wam.umd.edu>
i was wondering how to obtain tickets to dt's show in birch hill. please email me at slowhand@wam.umd.edu ... thanks! -john
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 01:22:53 +0000 From: "IbnzRG570" <ibanez@mailhost.cyberhighway.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Music Theory Finals Message-ID: <199611100829.BAA16004@cyberhighway.net>
This is it!
I've had it!
Can anyone tell the name of a good piano theory book? If this shit doesn't help me, then dammit, I'm kicking all of your asses. :) I have learned some theory from my Guitar Grimoire, but I'm thinking about kicking the guitar altogether and hitting the keys full force. For some reason or another, I have a much easier time with pianos than I do with guitar, and I think that's why theory frustrates me so much. I've known how to play piano for 15 years now, but have really only been playing it en force for the last 1-1/2. I don't consider myself a prodigy, but I never have had any problems playing what I want to. I do realize that theory will help me to communicate with other musicians better, that's why I picked it up the first time. The only problem was that my guitarist knew none, and wouldn't learn any. Everytime I'd tell him to play a C or anything, he'd look at me stupid and we'd still fumble around and practice would drag on. The drummer'd get pissed, and the band finally broke up. I hate to be so close-minded about it, but I have NEVER met any other musicians in person that I've tried to jam with who have known any theory. So if anyone can recommend me a good theory book, I'll go get it and figure this crap out. If it helps me, I'll forfeit my Twinkie to the one who recommended it. If not, I'd probably had wasted the time playing MechWarrior anyway.
Burned to a crisp, IbnzRG570 aka Mr. Chuckalupugus
"Life is Precious. All of life. And one must try to take in as much of it as possible." -- Yanni
"Life sucks." -- Butthead "Yeah, yeah! And then you die!" -- Beavis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 03:42:18 -0500 From: Michael Shawn Fainn <mfainn@mindspring.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008 Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961110084218.00691cc0@pop.mindspring.com>
take me off mailing list. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Every man dies, but not every man really lives" -Braveheart ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If you can appease a man's conscious, you can take his freedom away." -Cancerman, from the X-FILES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: William T Bajzek <wb2a+@andrew.cmu.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: kun fu-zing Message-ID: <0mVR2A200YUg01hmY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
> Bill Bajzek: bay-zek? bye-zek? badge-ek? (somehow I doubt the last > one)
it's Bye-zek. it's Wyndish for Destroyer of Continents.
williambajzek|wb2a@andrew.cmu.edu|http://phoebe.dws.acs.cmu.edu/~wb2a/ twobirdsonestoneonechanceisthrowndon'tmakemistakestwothievesstrungupon eknifeonecuttwodoorsoneshutonefightonewayoneroadtotakewestandandwaitfr omcooltowarmfromdusk'tildawnfromfluxtoformkneelingontheroadtograceland
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:27:28 -0500 From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961110152728.00679c3c@ici.net>
> Does John Petrucci really despise bootlegs and the people who >make them? Why? I mean, almost all of DT's fans are absolute fanatics who >are going to buy the album on the shelf, plus anything else they can get >their hands on, right? So what's up? I'm just kind of curious.
------------------------------
----
________Pat Sullivan__________________________________ E-mail: psull@ici.net WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html IRC: DDictator NP: Vicious Rumors - "Word Of Mouth"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:48:53 -0600 (CST) From: Wronskian <polzin@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Taping Shows Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.961110104732.10145E-100000@eehpx43.cen.uiuc.edu>
> I just have a question today... > Does John Petrucci really despise bootlegs and the people who > make them? Why? I mean, almost all of DT's fans are absolute fanatics who > are going to buy the album on the shelf, plus anything else they can get > their hands on, right? So what's up? I'm just kind of curious. > I thought that he has changed his mind since he bought some of Mike's stuff?
Ed
Chat with: talk polzin@isr1165.urh.uiuc.edu WWW: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~polzin/ BOOTLEGS: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~polzin/boots/boots.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ - Duct Tape is like The Force: It has a Dark Side, it - - has a light side, and it holds the Universe together. - ------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:51:47 -0600 (CST) From: Wronskian <polzin@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu> To: ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: g3 Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.961110105021.10145F-100000@eehpx43.cen.uiuc.edu>
ok, i am wondering if ANYONE taped ANY of the g3 shows. No matter if you are trading it or not. I just want to get a count on how many copies are out there. email me privately unless you want to advertise. later.
Ed
Chat with: talk polzin@isr1165.urh.uiuc.edu WWW: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~polzin/ BOOTLEGS: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~polzin/boots/boots.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ - Duct Tape is like The Force: It has a Dark Side, it - - has a light side, and it holds the Universe together. - ------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:53:58 +0000 From: "Dale R. Newberry" <drnewb@MO.NET> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: theory/JM's playing Message-ID: <199611101651.KAA11147@Walden.MO.NET>
On this music theory thread, I'd like to say that I don't think it's NECESSARY to write good songs, but it can certainly help. I would say that I have a slightly more than rudimentary knowledge of theory. the beauty of my learning experience is that I was easily able to apply what I learned from my years as a trombonist to my bass playing when i took that up about 4 years ago. It really helped me to learn bass playing quickly. I'm not a songwriter (I really admire those who can write good songs :), but I can imagine that theory would be a VERY useful tool when writing songs, especially when composing for more than a few instruments. Also, some knowledge of theory can really help when improvising a solo. Granted, it's not NECESSARY, but it can really help. Like somebody said/alluded to/something like that, it's a bad thing when you close your mind to any learning experience.
I was just thinking about what appeals to me about Myung's playing the other day. I figured out that it's the subtlety of some of his lines. I mean, some of his stuff is really out in the foreground (i.e. that tapping thing in Metropolis), but for the most part, I've found that I can really see/hear some amazing bass lines when I pay closer attention, y'know. Maybe I'm just blowing crap here, but that's sort of the conclusion I came to. Cheers.
Dale R. Newberry
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast." -Ace Rimmer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 12:21:02 -0400 (EDT) From: 99ABEL@alma.edu To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Music Theory Message-ID: <01IBOI444IXE8Y5HM3@alma.edu>
This isn't a flame, but in response to Pat Sullivan's post (My terminal won't cut and paste right), I don't generally think of the ability to READ music as qualifying as having any knowledge of music theory. Here's my quick two cents on the issue: I agree that knowing alot of arcane terminology doesn't really help anyone to write a piece of music. However, the reason I study music theory (I don't really know much, I've been playing for a little over two years but have been very slowly getting into the theory part of it) is to be able to get the ideas that I hear in my head out of the guitar or whatever before they're gone. When the inspiration is there, I can hear some beaitiful (to me) arrangements in my head, but I don't have a clue as to how to play them them. Then they are usually gone, lost forever, before I can figure out the what the first chord that I'm hearing is. Very frustrating. Yes, there are great writers (of music) who know no theory, and there are writers who know everything there is to know but are trapped by this knowledge and have no melo very little musical inspiration, but in general I think that a basic knowledge of chord theory and key changes...etc. can be an invaluable tool in writing. If you're still here, thanks for humoring me. -Clarkz
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:34:22 -0600 From: Madelaine <maddy@enteract.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2008 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961110173422.006a991c@enteract.com>
>From: "IbnzRG570" <ibanez@mailhost.cyberhighway.net> >To: ytsejam@ax.com >Subject: Re: music theory
<snip>
>Someday, I may learn theory. Not to better myself as a musician. >Not to write songs because some guy 1000 years ago said this is the >way to play songs. I will do it because I want to, and I don't plan >to cut anyone down because they don't want to, or because they don't >find it useful. > *DING* Kerrrr-rect! I took a year of college theory, on top of all the theory I've learned thru private lessons (I play 3 instruments; I've been to a lot of lessons.. :) I found theory class to be about 50% useful, 50% bullshit...A lot of it was just explaining reasons for things I already knew (ie why the circle of fifths progresses as it does, which functions each chord has in a scalar chord progression, etc.), some of it was banging my head against a wall trying to re-invent voicings for Mozart pieces, some of it was actually helpful in developing near-perfect pitch. So it all depends on what you want to do. Yes, I can analyze a piece of music MUCH better than before, but, no, I don't see that my instrumental abilities or my songwriting efforts have improved much. After all, anyone can sit there and say "Wow!!! A tritone followed by a diminished seventh! What genius!!" Music is more about feeling; about what comes out of you. Maybe that's why there aren't too many programs which encourage computers to independently write music...you can program every single theory principle into a machine, but what comes out *shrug* probably isn't half as beautiful as what comes out of the human soul, theory or no theory.
>From: Jennifer <jenibear@gvn.net> >To: "Ytsejam Mailing List" <ytsejam@ax.com> >Subject: Psychotic conditions > >I also found myself thinking about "A Mind Beside Itself," particularly >"Erotomania" last night. I had been going through some old psych texts >to do some research, specifically on "psychosis," and I spied a sidebar >about various manifestations, including erotomania. <g> I really don't >remember the posting about AMBI and schizophrenia, but it's a fact that >schizophrenia is the most common form of psychosis, and erotomania is >another psychotic disorder. Either way, you're talking about someone not >in touch with reality as most of us know it. (Larry O.: we don't need to >go for another bout about whether reality is optional or not. ;) ) > >Jen > Yup. Erotomania is the delusion that a famous person is in love with you. >
>From: Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> >To: ThE NuGgeTjAm <ytsejam@ax.com> >Subject: Just some info that may be of interest... > >The new Queensryche CD is almost completed, all that's left is the vocal >tracks. They are looking at a mid-spring release date. There is still >no word on a title for the CD or songs. It's expected to be 'happier' >than Promised Land was. :)
Woo! Glad to hear it....Do you know where/how it's being mixed?? I wasn't quit satisfied with the mixdown on PL...too much stuff got buried. :P
-Madelaine
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2009 **************************
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