YTSEJAM Digest 2472
Today's Topics:
1) Rainbow in the Park
by Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
2) Re: Queensryche and Deth tour...no way!
by "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
3) Re: NDTC whatsoever... but relevant in a funny way.
by Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
4) ..
by al682@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Dan Abosso)
5) Re: lite bulb joke, again.
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu>
6) Re: Megadeth
by Mike Hill <psytron@ntr.net>
7) lightbulb
by David Alderman <dalder@ix.netcom.com>
8) dt's appearence and chris collins
by "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org>
9) DT's image, hair, etc.
by michael.bradley@mail.cc.trincoll.edu (Michael Bradley)
10) re: lightbulb
by "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org>
11) Lightbulbs...
by Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu>
12) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2468
by beheader@sili.com.br (Pedro Prado)
13) Derek
by YtseJim <LUTZ@uhavax.hartford.edu>
14) Re: dt's appearence and chris collins
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
15) Image
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
16) read this one or something :)
by "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org>
17) Re: Image
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:00:57 -0700
From: Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Rainbow in the Park
Message-ID: <199704172000.NAA14251@main.cfmc.com>
>From: Jon Parmet <jonp@mailstorm.dot.gov>
>
>> Now, a question: Are we speaking of length? Of number of distinct
musical >>parts? How complex those parts are? How many stylistic switches
one makes? >>I'd argue that all of those go into a meaningful definition of
progressive,
>
>Certainly there are *parts* of a song which can be progressive, without
>the whole song necessarily being so. And still not take the
>progressiveness of it. A part that comes to mind is in "La Villa
>Strangiato." Not sure of the time index, but somewhere towards the end,
>Neil is going nuts on the bass and snare and Geddy is doing a run which
>modulates.
Hmmm...now THAT'S something I hadn't really considered, particularly. That
PARTS of a song could be progressive, without the rest of the song being so.
Normally, we think in terms of bands or albums or, at least, songs. That
maybe "Close to the Edge" is more progressive than "A Venture," "2112" more
progressive than "Closer to the Heart." But no, in fact...you may have a
point. It's certainly possible that "A Venture" (or, hell, even "Vevey") is
a more progressive piece than, at least, a song like "Owner of a Broken
Heart," and it's GOT to be more progressive than a tune like "Gimme Gimme
Gimme," which is, at least in its live incarnation, a much longer work.
>I don't think a certain quantity of the above is needed. I refer, again,
>back to that brilliant example: ACoS. Try playing the acoustic intro
>part during the section "I remember a time" or during the part right
>before where JP is on electric. Rhythmically, it's fairly straghtforward
>to make it fit like a glove. You can see the how the melody line has,
>for lack of a better word, progressed from one section to the next when
>set against the original line.
Well, theme and variation may be a little common a musical technique to
refer to as "progressive." I mean, Kurt Cobain's solo in "Smells Like Teen
Spirit" is basically that premise, and, as liberal as I am with the notion
of "progressivity," I wouldn't apply it there. But the way Dream Theater
uses motives throughout an extended piece I WOULD call progressive. You may
hear the theme and not hear it again for 6 minutes, all the while they go
off and do something entirely different musically, which ultimately gets
tied in, from an arranging perspective, by the restatement of the theme. In
that respect, I'll go along with you.
>> But I also did have a somewhat well-known knock-down drag-out on the old
>>a.m.p with a few folks who were arguing both that Rush isn't progressive
and >>that Rush isn't any good, anyhow, so who gives a shit?
>
>The dis-believers will *take* a shit when.....Adam KICKS ASS!!
Well, I did assert myself well, methinks...but it was an interesting
argument, wandering from component of ass-kick-itude to postmodernist
aesthetic theory (Foucault was a big one here). I don't know that too many
people were convinced. At the very least, there are people who now know
that Rush fans are capable of cognition.
>> AND, essentially, requires a phenomenal amount of technical facility. A
>>band like Weather Report is VERY progressive, but they play a kind of
music >>that's fairly progressive at its root. Brand X just seems a little
more >>fusion-sounding than progressive, as such, to me....and they
generally get >>tagged as "progressive" probably because of all the projects
that the band >>remembers have done OUTSIDE of Brand X. Go figure....
>
>That and they tend to lean a little more towards the jazz side of
>fusion, but the musicianship is first rate. Check out the song "Access
>to Data" (can't remember the album, perhaps Is There Anything About? or
>Masques).
I'm a trendy Brand X fan. I've HEARD all there is of theirs, but I've only
got "Livestock" and the maligned "Product." Still, Percy Jones is damn
frightening for little ol' me. I WISH I could play like that guy....
Five Gratuitous CD's:
=====================
1. Rush: Rush
2. Led Zeppelin: Houses of the Holy
3. Dream Theater: Live at the Marquee
4. Dar Williams: Mortal City
5. Metallica: Load
Adam D. Barnhart
adamb@cfmc.com
ydnt85a@prodigy.com
http://www.cfmc.com/adamb
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:17:45 -0400
From: "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Queensryche and Deth tour...no way!
Message-ID: <199704172019.QAA24003@zork.tiac.net>
Hey,
I just thought I'd spoil anybody's hopes for a Megadeth/Queensryche tour.
In a 1991 interview for the Clash of the Titans tour in Guitar World
magazine he was asked who he thought the worst band in metal was, and he
said Queensryche was "fag-yuppie metal". I don't think that means he's
looking forward to touring with them :)
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:19:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Albert Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: NDTC whatsoever... but relevant in a funny way.
Message-ID: <199704172021.NAA22499@odin.ax.com>
>
>
> A brief time-out for some comedic relief...
>
<snip>
Do people even read the Jams? just wondering.....
On Symphony X (for whoever it was that asked, I'm in ack, so
didn't catch the name)........
If you like Dream Theater, you'll like Symphony X.
If you like Malmsteen, you'll like Symphony X.
If you like both, then you're in for a real treat.....
There's no other way to describe it really.....it has some
heavy "chunk"y parts, and also has nice interludes of
nice keys/piano.......very well done, I eould definitely
recommend it, as I know most of the other 'Jammers would
as well.....
One more thing.....recently picked up Lemur Voice's "Insights",
and I enjoyed it a lot - Marcel is definitely up there
talent-wise - he's no Bernd or anything, but............ :P
The CD is great, but I was expecting something a bit heavier,
it seemed like the clips I heard didn't reflect Insights - maybe
they were from another album as well, or maybe I'm just
loony......by the way, are there other LV stuff as avaailable
as Insights??????
-Al
-- @#%^$#%^#$&#%%$&#$%^#$%^#$%&#$%^&#$%^&#$%&#$%&#$%&#$%&#$%&#$%^&%$ | | | See me gone and persevere.... | | Condescending when you label me Judas.... | | | #$%^#%&#%^$*%&*^&*%&(%^&(%^&*(%^&*(*%^&*$^&*#^%&#^*$%^&*#%^&*#$%& | Al Balkiewicz SEND MAIL HERE -->balkiewi @ njmsa.umdnj.edu | | OR HERE! --->DA_PROF @ BIGFOOT.COM | %@#$^@#$^@^%%$&#$&^*$%&*$&*$%^$&$%^&$%^*$^%&*$%^&*$%^*$%^&%$^&%$%------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:20:27 -0400 (EDT) From: al682@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Dan Abosso) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: .. Message-ID: <199704172020.QAA25880@osfn.org>
I was in school yesterday, wearing my I&W t-shirt and this kid I know comes sat at my table. He asked me if I think DT is talented, and naturally I said "yes, the members of DT are very talented." Now, this kid is a moron, mind you, and he started rambling on about how "great" bands like TON and Marilyn Manson are so much better... And to top it all off, he said this: "Dream Theater has only one gimmick going for them, which is their 80's long hair."... I just laughed at this fool's ignorance. - Dan (btw - got SFAM! awesome disc!)
-- Strangers passing in the street, by chance Two seperate glances meet and I am you and What I see is me... - Pink Floyd
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:22:18 -0700 From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@u.arizona.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: lite bulb joke, again. Message-ID: <199704172022.NAA49862@nevis.u.arizona.edu>
At 01:01 PM 4/17/97 -0700, you wrote: > >A brief time-out for some comedic relief... > >Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take > to change a light bulb?
Dunno, but here's one for you:
Q: How many ytsejammers don't read their jams, and then post something for the 1,331st time? ;p
Peace and love, and good happiness stuff, ~Vince
If you like that there rock 'n roll, check out: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~vgl
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:31:22 -0400 From: Mike Hill <psytron@ntr.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Megadeth Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970417203122.0066c418@ntr.net>
>Either of those combos would be killer though. I'd personally like to see >Megadeth and Saigon Kick (gee, wonder why? :P). But Dave, please: NO KORN!!!
hehe.. Korn is awful.. i was at the megadeth bootcamp thing in december and got to talk to the guys in the studio, the only one that seemed to like Korn at all was Nick, and i found out it was "either them or Manson", so i suppose i am very glad they took Korn out, even though they're terrible, they're better than Manson.. ugh
mike psytron@ntr.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:38:23 -0500 From: David Alderman <dalder@ix.netcom.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: lightbulb Message-ID: <33568A3F.6FCD@ix.netcom.com>
How many subscribers does it take to post the same joke?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:39:02 -0500 From: "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org> To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: dt's appearence and chris collins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970417203902.0075cdc8@mail.inlink.com>
first of all, i think probably the scariest thing about DT's videos for me is james. i really dont think the rest of them are hair farmers, but i see a touch of this look (even if not a conscious effort by james) in labrie. his hair just puffs out so much! ah! its scary! :) i'm not about to say DT should go changing their looks for the public, but if i could have a day in the hair saloon with james la brie i'd definately knock those locks. i think he might look cool with an undercut or something... james, if you're reading the jam: you want that haircut, bud, you just come see me! you got my email address... ;)
as for chris collins on the majesty demos. at first listen i thought: this guy makes dominici sound like an angel! after the first few listens this idea still stood. but its grown on me.. yesterday i was making a copy of the demos for someone, and i was really getting into it, for probably the first time ever. if the production were improved, they'd have a real kickass set of songs right there. i think it would be a total riot if maybe for next years fan club CD, DT could go into a studio and spend a rather low sum of money, and just re record the original demos with the current band and stuff. some of their best songs are on that demo, IMO.
~Rip
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:53:22 -0400 From: michael.bradley@mail.cc.trincoll.edu (Michael Bradley) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: DT's image, hair, etc. Message-ID: <199704172051.QAA19389@mail.trincoll.edu>
Scott Cook wrote:
>That doesn't mean they have to be Jon Bon Blowme and be all >teeth and phony happiness; just try to make the pics a little less >intense. > >Scott
I agree Scott. DT needs some help with their image. I thought Derek would modernize their look, but then he and James came out at the Toad's Place Fix show in tight leather pants. To top it off, James had white tennis sneakers on. Doh! I wish this all didn't matter, because we all know that DT's music is great, but the public connects certain features of appearance with certain genres of music (BTW, I've been doing a lot of research on this lately at college and I just wrote a paper on how cleverly Jon Bon Jovi has reshaped his image. I'm no fan of his, but he's a smart businessman). DT is pretty much still in the 80's metal mold visually, which is VERY inconsistent with their style of music, which is far more progressive, etc., than say, a Trixter.
What's most important is that DT rules, but sadly enough, there are a lot of people (like MTV) who only care about image and will ignore great music if it's not "cool" enough. Here's a funny story:
I've always had short hair. You would not guess how many times I was ignored in the late 80's early 90's at music stores until I played my "may I help you" riff. Meanwhile the salesmen would be on the "metal-looking" guys like flies on shit. BTW, this happened at Daddy's Junky Music, whose CT stores are staffed by lying bastards who couldn't play their way out of a paper bag...wet. E-mail me for specifics if you're going to do lots of business with them. Later guys...DT Rules!!
-Mike Bradley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:53:05 -0500 From: "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org> To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: re: lightbulb Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970417205305.006edf60@mail.inlink.com>
> >How many subscribers does it take to post the same joke?
seventy. four to post the joke, and sixty five to reply to it in quoted message form and comment on it, and one to milk the cow. (the cow will be singing misty, but that's irrelevent, its actually a two in one joke but told improperly)
:) ~Rip
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:58:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> To: ThE NuGgeTjAm <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Lightbulbs... Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970417155547.1753A-100000@indy21.gclab.missouri.edu>
Hey guys, I missed that lighbulb joke the first 6 times, could someone please post it again?
=20 h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / | Pat Griffin Reality=B2 Design | | c675311@showme.missouri.edu c675311@cclabs.missouri.edu | h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 /
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:01 -0300 From: beheader@sili.com.br (Pedro Prado) To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2468 Message-ID: <19970417210100885.AAA40@default>
>DTC:. >At the same place they have a list (that of course I signed) to bring DT >to Brazil. HEY BRAZILLIAN JAMMERS!! TODO MUNDO NA GALERIA ASSINANDO A >LISTA!! :))
E isso ai. E quem preferir assine pela Internet: http://www.geocities.com/~r isnic/html/dt.htm
Eu e um amigo que estamos organizando... Quem quiser ajudar a pegar assinaturas por papel em sua cidade mande um email... That's it...
[]s, ______________ Pedro Prado - aka Beheader email: beheader@sili.com.br URL: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/3551
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:45:32 +0000 From: YtseJim <LUTZ@uhavax.hartford.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Derek Message-ID: <Pine.VMS.3.91-vms-b4.970417164220.6301A-100000@uhavax.hartford.edu>
>ded very progressive as well. One of the songs reminded me a bit of Eve at >the beginning, with Derek playing some spacy sounding stuff, it sounded very >good live. John Petrucci was looking really weird when he played his solos,
Speaking of spacey sounding stuff from derek....Did anyone else notice that before one of the new songs on the tour (don't remember which), He used the Alice Cooper 'Poison' intro? I swear it was there!
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% % "4 Billion Years between our Ears % % Still hatred brings us Many Tears." - Queensryche % %-----------------------------------------------------------------------% % Jim Lutz % % YtseJim@DreamT.Org YtseJim@HotMail.Com Lutz@Uhavax.Hartford.Edu % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:39:24 -0400 From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: dt's appearence and chris collins Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970417173924.00985620@pophost.fore.com>
>as for chris collins on the majesty demos. at first listen i thought: this >guy makes dominici sound like an angel! after the first few listens this >idea still stood. but its grown on me.. yesterday i was making a copy of >the demos for someone, and i was really getting into it, for probably the >first time ever. if the production were improved, they'd have a real >kickass set of songs right there. i think it would be a total riot if maybe >for next years fan club CD, DT could go into a studio and spend a rather low >sum of money, and just re record the original demos with the current band >and stuff. some of their best songs are on that demo, IMO.
Ha ha, I wouldn't count on it. In '94 I talked to JP about these songs, and tried to convince him that they should throw one song in the live set (this was of course after hearing part of March of the Tyrant appended to OaMoT). He said to me:
JP: Do you play? Guitar or anything? Me: Yeah, I've dabbled in a couple of bands since high school. JP: Can you think of anything you wrote back in junior high or high school. Me: Sure. JP: What do think of that material now? Me: Yuck, it sucked. I'm so much better a writer now, at least I think so. JP: Case in point. I wrote that Majesty stuff in or just out of high school. Why would I want to go back to it? Me: But you played part of March of the Tyrant over in Italy, its on a bootl...I mean, that's what I heard. JP: That was the only cool part.
So there ya go. It sounds like JP is not at all proud of that material anymore. You can't tell me that Another Won or Your Majesty wouldn't sound killer with a 90's production, and James on vocals. I think we should raise the money to send them to the studio to record these 6 songs from the 1986 demo, plus Resurrection of Ernie, Cry for Freedom, and Don't Look Past Me. What d'ya think? If we all pitched in a $20, do you think they'd do it?
KAI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:45:56 -0400 From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Image Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970417174556.0097e390@pophost.fore.com>
It doesn't matter what DT looks like. Even if they looked like Oasis, mainstream audiences wouldn't buy their records. I don't understand what all of the negative hype is about. If DT changed their image to be more 90's, I certainly would respect them a lot less. I also think they have the right idea with wearing all black in their pictures, and not smiling. Of course I don't want to start a progressive picture argument.
I find it hard to believe that some fans would like to see them go more mainstream 90's. That would utterly suck.
KAI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:53:29 -0500 From: "Rip, Cow Virtuoso" <ripzero@dreamt.org> To: Heavy Metal Computer Nerds <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: read this one or something :) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970417215329.006dc6f4@mail.inlink.com>
At 02:43 PM 4/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >Ha ha, I wouldn't count on it. In '94 I talked to JP about these songs, >and tried to convince him that they should throw one song in the live set >(this was of course after hearing part of March of the Tyrant appended to >OaMoT). He said to me: ><snip of jp saying he didnt like it cuz he wrote it out of High school>
yeah, i know how he feels, but thats a common thought of people, i still dont agree with JP that the demos suck :) besides, its one thing to include it in your set list every night and stuff, but just for redoing them for a fan club cd as a special treat that will only fall into the hands of the die hard fans is on a different thought.. even if they only redid one old song it'd rule. moving on though,
>So there ya go. It sounds like JP is not at all proud of that material >anymore. You can't tell me that Another Won or Your Majesty wouldn't sound >killer with a 90's production, and James on vocals. I think we should >raise the money to send them to the studio to record these 6 songs from the >1986 demo, plus Resurrection of Ernie, Cry for Freedom, and Don't Look Past >Me. What d'ya think? If we all pitched in a $20, do you think they'd do it? >
you know, the marillion list recently raised over 30,000 dollars to get marillion to tour the US. 30,000! if people are serious on this list, i bet we could put this plan into action. we just need someone to take control and handle the collection, but i would donate in a second, as i'm sure many others would. we would of course have to check with DT to ask them if they'd even do it after we raised the money first, but several people on the list have contacts. anyone else's thoughts on it?
~Rip
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:11:04 -0400 (EDT) From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Image Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970417180117.268B-100000@digital.dreamt.org>
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Eric Rodger wrote:
> It doesn't matter what DT looks like. Even if they looked like Oasis, > mainstream audiences wouldn't buy their records. I don't understand what
Well, let's not assume that. Let's allow ourselves to believe that QR's "Silent Lucidity" and DT's "The Silent Man" are equal songs, as far as being acoustic-driven ballads from prog metal bands. (Yes, it's a gross overgeneralization, but roll with me on this.) Now imagine that DT made a video similar in style/acceptance factor/flashing lights/etc to the "SL" video. Had Atlantic decided to push a video like that even a *little*, something tells me that radio would have jumped all over it, and it would have been JLB on Politically Incorrect a couple weeks back instead of Tate.
Ever since August 1st, 1981, appearance matters more than almost anything else to mainstream audiences.
> all of the negative hype is about. If DT changed their image to be more > 90's, I certainly would respect them a lot less. I also think they have
Ehhhh, depends. If they started wearing flannel and piercing themselves, yeah, I would too. But I'd be able to sleep at night if they made slight modifications to their appearance without changing *who* they are and what they *play*.
> the right idea with wearing all black in their pictures, and not smiling.
*We* like that stuff because we're used to bands looking like they do in the liners to "Master of Puppets" and "So Far So Good... So What?" The mainstream audience is used to people wearing the latest fashions, smiling their pearly whites, etc.
One other thing to think about, which may or may not have anything to do with any of this... DT has never had bikini chicks in a video. Coincidence?
> I find it hard to believe that some fans would like to see them go more > mainstream 90's. That would utterly suck.
Would it? I mean, would it really be so bad if they changed something as insignificant (in the grand scheme of things) as their appearance, if it meant that US mainstream audiences started buying more of their stuff? I honestly don't care (and I don't think you do, either) what they *wear*. I didn't buy I&W because of their pictures.
Just some points to ponder... -d
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2472 **************************
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