YTSEJAM Digest 2429
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Attention all Asian Studies majors!!!
by Symbolic66@aol.com
2) Heaven's Gate
by Steffen Barabasch <sw0101@aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de>
3) Kev.'s contributions
by EricD91011@aol.com
4) Some people have all the luck!!
by durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2425
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
6) Re: Ytse-Asshole of the month !!!
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org>
7) Re: Politically Inconspicuous
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org>
8)
by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
9) RE: Time Sigs.
by Mark Hatch-Miller <ace@onfire.net>
10)
by jefffalk@bu.edu (Jeffrey Falk)
11) RE: Time Sigs.
by Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
12) QR Empire single
by Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com>
13) More clinic stuff...
by Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu>
14) Pat Griffin on...
by Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu>
15) Re: QR Empire single
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org>
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:55:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Symbolic66@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Attention all Asian Studies majors!!!
Message-ID: <970405145530_-1737647420@emout20.mail.aol.com>
i dunno what kevins key stand says...but i do know mikes japanese tattoo
translates to mikey
brian (symbolic)
http:/www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/5578/home.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:20:10 +0100
From: Steffen Barabasch <sw0101@aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de>
To: Ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Heaven's Gate
Message-ID: <yam7034.538.1461058728@aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de>
Hi Dori!
>something which I found quite amusing... look at the "thank you's" on the
>inner side of the liner notes (not the side with the wide pict. of the band in
>the studio) and you'll see DT thanking Heaven's Gate. Just thought it was
>something funny and for all you flamers out there... yes, I know, Heaven's
>Gate is also a band.
Actually they meant the band! Heaven's Gate played as a support band on the
first leg of the Images-Tour in Germany.
Steffen
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steffen Barabasch - THE MIRROR TheMirror@westend.com Deutscher Dream Theater Fanclub http://www.westend.com/TheMirror -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:22:54 -0500 (EST) From: EricD91011@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Kev.'s contributions Message-ID: <970405152020_-2004631659@emout19.mail.aol.com>
I liked this one: " I had thought about this. I also have another theory. It seems to me that there are many songs, on I&W AND Awake, where Kevin doesn't really do much"
Nice theory I suppose except there are parts where James doesn't sing, Mike doesn't play, and both Johns simply hold down parts. Kev on I&W is everywhere, his sound and intricate parts separate the ablum from just another metal work. On Awake he is probably better. What an incredibly subtle album, not bad for a guy who didn't want to be there. The only real songs he doesn't do much on are Innocence Faded and Lie, but the rest he plays very smart. There is really little empircal evidence to compare how KM and DS would play Awake songs live except Puppies on Acid which is hard to tell, but Derek renditions of Surrounded and Under a Glass Moon are simply bad. Taking out the electric keys underneath his leads in Surrounded and the electric keys he foregoes for the organ at the beginning of the UaGM instrumental take away from the song. Kevin doesn't need to be ballsy because he plays smart, using what he can. A song I think KM could do 100 times better is "Take Away My Pain". Someone made the point what a moving lyrical song, but the music doesn't back it up. There is flowing synth or full sounding keys and it detracts from the song. I know Derek will put out good songs, but I think for the first time with DT there will be songs people will not like, even the hard core fans. We shall see, just an opinion though don't burn my house down. Take the time.
-Eric
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 13:47:41 -0700 (MST) From: durnik <durnik@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Some people have all the luck!! Message-ID: <199704052047.NAA06403@goodguy.goodnet.com>
Well folks, it just goes to show you... luck works in mysterious ways.
Ticket sales for 11/29/96 Rush show -> I show up, I'm first in line, no lottery, but the first tickets out of the machine were in the center of the floor adjacent to the soundboard. Somehow 29 rows of seats were sold between the time I said "I'll take 4 seats" and the time the guy at Ticketmaster punched in the order.
Ticket sales this morning for 5/8/97 Rush show -> I show up last minute, draw #5 in the lottery, turns out there is no #1-4 when I get there at buying time. I get second row, center. I love it!! The supplementary material for Virtual Songs will be taped from some nice seats indeed!! (Nate Bradley, you lucky schmuck, you owe me $48 for your ticket! And your line has been busy all day, so get the hell off the net and come over and get your ticket. <G>)
So I guess the point of all this is that there IS no point. :)
By the way thanks to everyone for their extreme patience with my E-MAIL replies. It's taken all week because this was a real crunch week with Equinox, and it looks like this coming week will be the exact opposite (as in, I'm gonna get a shitload of shipping done). A lot of Precious Things discs are already shipped. I hope I haven't pissed anyone off with the late (or still forthcoming) replies to their e-mail, becuase I _will_ get to it ASAP. I know a week in Illinois followed by a week of crunch equals two weeks of no word from Mike, and that's a situation I like to avoid if I can.
OK everyone, this is what you were all waiting for: I confirm extension of Experience to Extremes from 100 to 200 discs total. If you just missed the cut off, you're in luck. :) This is as I originally planned it; demand is so high I have gone ahead as noted in the updates. Get them orders in ASAP eh!! :)
Also, If you missed out on Scenes from a Memory, I don't know what to tell ya. The only ones I have left are being re-sent to lost-in-mails packages and such. I might have a few prototypes left after that for the extreme latecomers, but no guarantees. I'll do what I can.
Get those orders in for WDATU, Critical Mass, Virtual Songs, Precious Things, Darkest of Winters, and Experience to Extremes!! I didn't extend the print runs just so I could type more numbers into the updates... I extended them because YOU the dedicated DT/Rush fan pleaded with me not to have you miss out! :) Take care all!!
Mike Bahr, 275 W. Juniper Ave. #1013, Gilbert, AZ 85233 USA - Mike Bahr - durnik@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2425 Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970405153903.127368A-100000@elk.uvm.edu>
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 ytsejam@ax.com wrote: > > Skid Row- s/t: this one was a little poppy but I still love I Remember You > and 18 And Life. In fact, I've been dying to hear those songs lately- I > don't own the album but have had it before.
I just re-bought the album on CD after having lost the tape. This is one of the best debuts ever. > > Slave To The Grind- the best heavy metal album of 1991. It has a very raw > feel to it almost as if there was no producer to f*** it up. > I think exactly the same thing, except the opposite :). "Slave" is one of my all-time favorite albums. I think Michael Wagner (the producer for their debut and "Slave") did a phenominal job and who can hear how influencial he was in the sound when they switched to Bob Rock. Wagner is my all time favorite producer, and "Slave" is one of the reasons.
> B-Side Ourselves- the 5 song cover EP I could've done without. While none of > it was bad, I'd rather hear Skid Row playing Skid Row songs. The songs on it > were Psycho Therapy (Ramones), C'Mon And Love Me - one of the outstanding > tracks (KISS), Delivering The Goods- live w/ Rob Halford (Judas Priest), > What Your Doing (Rush) and Little Wing (Jimi Hendrix). > I love this album. The only one I don't care for is "Pyscho Therapy" and that's because Sebastian isn't singing on it. But "C'Mon And LOve Me" and the live version of "Delivering The Goods" are definite highlights.
Subhuman Race- while this is a very heavy release, it didn't do much for me. > I think it was a little too overproduced. I think Bob Rock did a horrible > job on this one. Even the ballads lack in power.
Again, I think exactly the same thing except the opposite :). The album, while great, doesn't do it for me as much as "Slave" and I do think that Bob Rock didn't do that good of a job on it. If anything, it's an underproduced album. Sebastian's vocals are so dry (little effects), though the album does contain Rob Affuso's best work. But maybe it was just too hard to follow up a masterpiece like "Slave."
Richie >
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Ytse-Asshole of the month !!! Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970405162928.14871B-100000@digital.dreamt.org>
On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Mark Bredius wrote:
> > To try and make the Ytsejam a friendlier place, I came up with the > > following idea. Instead of flaming someone directly on the list, you > > come to this page and enter the digestnumber, From: and Subject: line > > of the post you disagree with. After that, you enter a short comment
Mark, I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to vote for you, because of your wild and reckless discrimination against those of us in ack mode.
Hey, someone tell me what digest number this winds up in.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:33:59 -0500 (EST) From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Politically Inconspicuous Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970405163219.14871C-100000@digital.dreamt.org>
On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Rick Audet wrote:
> >He looked baked and bored, and that's kinda how I felt after enduring this > >show. > > No kidding. I never watched the show before, and if that was a > representative episode, I doubt I'll be watching it again except when JLB is > on. :)
PI depends on its guests. When the guests are intelligent, funny, and awake, PI is a pisser. When there are four Geoff Tate's, watch the end of Letterman. Unfortunately, you can't always tell by who the guests are (cf. last night) how good the show is going to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 16:47:35 -0500 From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970405164732.006856dc@ici.net>
>I just wanted to thank everyone in advance for giving me the >Ytse-asshole of the month Award. This is good therapy for >Mark. I should send him a picture of myslef to him so he can >post it on his web page so he can show everyone what the >Ytsejam's #1 asshole looks like. That should give Itchy a >big ol' erection. When the only way you can get attention from >a woman is to get a hooker, you gotta get your kicks where you >can.
..And congratulations on your first contribution toward two months in a row! At this rate, we might even have to rename the award after you! :)
(This is a joke. Please relax)
Actually, I've gotten more flame mail in the last few months than I have in a looong time. I'm a little curious to see where I end up.
-----
>say 4/53 time...would be played like 4/4..just 53rd note gets the beat...i >just dont know how to draw a 53rd note...any ideas?
Hmmm....just like a 64th note, but make one of the "tails" just a wee bit shorter.
-----
________Pat Sullivan__________________________________ E-mail: psull@ici.net WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html IRC: DDictator NP: Tool - "Aenima"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 15:01:36 -0700 From: Mark Hatch-Miller <ace@onfire.net> To: "ytsejam@ax.com" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: RE: Time Sigs. Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970405150124.00694218@onfire.net>
><< Nice try, Rip, but as far as I know there is NO such thing as a 53rd note. >: ) > >of coure there is...53 53rd notes per measure...and if its in something over >53 time then a 53rd note becomes very easy to play... > >say 4/53 time...would be played like 4/4..just 53rd note gets the beat...i >just dont know how to draw a 53rd note...any ideas? >
nope.. you can have 4/1, 4/2, 4/4, 4/8 4/16, 4/32, 4/64, etc. You can have 54 notes in a measure (just like you could have triplets, septuplets, etc), but there is no such thing as a 54th note. -------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Hatch-Miller, ace@onfire.net
"He's noble enough to know whats right but weak enough not to choose it He's wise enough to win the world but fool enough to lose it"-
Rush, "New World Man"
-------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:15:23 -0500 From: jefffalk@bu.edu (Jeffrey Falk) To: ytsejam@ax.com Message-ID: <v01540b01af6c7e289a25@[128.197.9.156]>
>1) how come the cassette lines sez copyright 1996? Is that on the CD >liner as well? The CD says 1997. Incidentally, Nuno's _Scizophonic_ says 1996, and that came out this year.
>I can't believe I wasted a half hour of my life waiting to glean some >pearl of wisdom from the step-uncle of grunge. Except for one off-topic >comment about e-coli-tainted beef in Seattle, Geoff Tate sat in apparent >bewilderment and disillusionment at host Bill Maher and his fellow >panelists. The topics of conversation were obviously way over Geoff's >head, because he didn't even respond facially to anything. He looked >baked and bored, and that's kinda how I felt after enduring this show. Maybe it's just me, but it looked like he did respond to much of the comments (even if it was only amusement). Also, I have a hard time believing that an intelligent man who wrote lyrics like "Empire," Spreading the Disease," "Speak," "spOOL," etc. had no idea what they were all talking about. It was a complete disappointment though. Probably a mistake on somebody's part.
>I just wanted to thank everyone in advance for giving me the >Ytse-asshole of the month Award. I'd like to thank everyone in advance for giving me the Ytse-asshole of the Millenia Award.
>This is good therapy for >Mark. I should send him a picture of myslef to him so he can >post it on his web page so he can show everyone what the >Ytsejam's #1 asshole looks like. That should give Itchy a >big ol' erection. When the only way you can get attention from >a woman is to get a hooker, you gotta get your kicks where you >can. I have the same problem, but I don't see how the above remedy would help.
Jeff Falk Box 3208 700 Commonwealth Avenue Boston, Massachusetts 02215 (617) 352-8639 jefffalk@bu.edu
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: RE: Time Sigs. Message-ID: <199704052217.RAA10753@newman.concentric.net>
Various peanut gallery comments:
>> Nice try, Rip, but as far as I know there is NO such thing as a 53rd note.
>nope.. you can have 4/1, 4/2, 4/4, 4/8 4/16, 4/32, 4/64, etc. You can have >54 notes in a measure (just like you could have triplets, septuplets, etc), >but there is no such thing as a 54th note.
I think many of you need to turn the joke sensor switch back on. Either that or take it into the shop to get fixed, 'cause it ain't workin' so good.
I've almost got those TSO "Sarajevo 12/24" 24th notes happening. Problem was I needed better picks to get them up to speed.
-Rick Audet
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:40:01 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Audet <ytse@cris.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: QR Empire single Message-ID: <199704052240.RAA19679@newman.concentric.net>
I was digging through my roommate's CD's when I stumbled across this QR single for "Empire", which also has "Scarborough Fair", "Prophecy", and "Della Brown" on it. It's an import from Holland. Anyone know if this is worth anything these days?
Just wondering. Thank you.
-Rick Audet
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:00:08 -0600 (CST) From: Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> To: ThE NuGgeTjAm <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: More clinic stuff... Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970405165918.13941A-100000@indy21.gclab.missouri.edu>
Another couple of notes from the DS/JP clinic.
Derek said that Mike told them that Kevin Moore has moved to Costa Rica (I think) and is currently digging up dinosaur bones. I am *not* makeing this up (although I have not ruled out the possiblitly that Mike *is*), and I'm sure that everyone else that was there remembers this because it got a hell of a reaction from the crowd...
You may hear some complaints eventually that "Derek was an asshole after the clinic, man, I asked him for an autograph and he just said 'no, I'm not signing that' and walked off!" As I saw this happen several times, I can tell you that the second half is absolutely true. As for Derek being an asshole, I would be quicker to say that the autograph-seekers were the ones being assholes. An example? I'm talking to Derek about the Fix shows, and someone walks up, pushes a CD (Live at the Marquee) towards Derek and says "Will you sign this?" Derek looks at the CD, looks at the guy, and says "No." As the guy walks off, mumbling under his breath, Derek turns back and says "Why don't they just ask me to sign their Elvis albums, I didn't play on those either..." Which is why I brought ACoS for them to sign. :)
By the way, does anyone here know what line of work Derek was in in his early teens? He mentioned something about 'buying [his] first Korg when [he] was 13...' Jesus, when I was 13 I could hardly afford to buy popcorn at the movies when I could afford to go the movies! Most of the Korgs I have seen cost more than my entire computer, and I have a system that won't be obsolete for years!
Another Derek highlight that most people who weren't at the clinic won't get the full scope of... He was talking about something, and decided that rather than talking, he should be playing, and when he pressed the keys, the sound that came from the speakers was (judging from the oh-my-god-in-heaven-what-the-fuck-did-I-just-do, whites-of-his-eyes surprised look he got on his face) about 10 decibals higher than he had expected. That look was priceless.
One thing that majorly sucked about the clinic: the bozos at McMurray that organized it. I was told for weeks prior, and in fact the DAY OF, that there would be no tapes, video or still cameras or any other type of recording devices allowed at the clinics. Well, there was *no* security there! They didn't even check to see if you had a ticket before letting you in! And JP even said "If you have a tape recorder, go ahead and record so you can try this stuff at home" which was met with several grunts from the audience, who obviously shared the same feelings as I. There was at least one guy there with a camcorder, and I would imagine a few tapers as well (please email me!). Security was so loose there that you could have walked up on stage, unplugged JP from his pre-amp, thrown him - and his guitar - over your shoulder, walked out, put them both in the trunk of your car, and driven off. Hell, one of the employees would have followed you to the lot with the pre-amp saying "excuse me? Sir? You forgot this..." Thanks to them, I have no tape of the clinic, and no pics of DS or JP, much less myself with them. If anyone on the list works for McMurray, please tell everyone I said 'fuck you'. :)
Rip said that he thought they played You or Me... I don't think so, but if anyone else remembers, please correct me.
Some other things that were met with shock/humor by the crowd were some of John's comments while playing... He played some sort of 5/4 chromatic scale thing, which seemed obtainable at first... then he played the same thing at an obscenely fast pace for a bit, which was met with much jaw dropping and salivating by the guitarist in the crowd (the difference between this and their previous disposition seemed to be that their jaws weren't dropped before). After finishing that, he said "Once you have that down -" and didn't get much farther because of the laughter and cries of frustration from the crowd.
Also, who the fuck are all you people posting about the clinic, and why didn't I meet any of you after the clinic!? I was there for at least a half hour talking to Derek or getting something signed by John. Rip? Didn't even know you were there... you were probably one of the fourteen year olds my cousin and I were making fun of. :) A little people spotting for those of you at the clinic... see if you remember these faces in the crowd:
Jesus - he was on the left side of the room, sitting in the aisle and latter standing towards the back. He had on a blue shirt and bellbottoms. Side note to anyone who knows an up and coming local band who needs a name: Jesus Wears Bellbottoms. :)
The Kid from the ACoS cover - right side, inner aisle, I believe in a maroon shirt.
Kip Winger - spotted him in the lobby, not sure if he was at the clinic or not.
Vinny, from Doogie Howser - on the right side, just past Derek.
Al Bundy - right side, just past Derek. Had the look right down the the shirt and unwashed hair...
There were more, but I can't remember them all now... We were adequately entertained by the look alikes in the room until the show started though...
h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / | Pat Griffin Reality=B2 Design | | c675311@showme.missouri.edu c675311@cclabs.missouri.edu | h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 /
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:01:18 -0600 (CST) From: Pat Griffin <c675311@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> To: ThE NuGgeTjAm <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Pat Griffin on... Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970405170015.13959A-100000@indy21.gclab.missouri.edu>
A few comments from the last 40 jams I just spent 3 hours reading:
On Bootlegs:
I own damn near 20 Dream Theater bootlegs. I also own every studio and live album that the band has put out. I fail to see how my buying bootlegs has taken money away from the band. Someone try to prove to me that I would have been better off buying another copy of Images and Words rather than Dance of Eternity. It might be true that the band isn't getting any money from sale of bootlegs or concert recordings, but I don't know anyone that would go out and spend $25 on a bootleg of a show instead of getting the legit CD in stores for less than $15.
The only bootlegging that would take sales *away* from DT are people buying bootlegged copies of the *legit* releases instead of buying the real thing. Every bootleg that I own is in addition to every album, single, live release, and video the band has put out.
------
On Sebastian Bach (oh man, *someone* is going to take that one the wrong way...):
Not only does he have a good voice, but he can cover DT songs *and* do that lip thing at the same time (LiT video...)
------
On the country vs country debate:
The award for The Most Gratuitous Use of the Word "Belguim" in a Serious Screenplay goes to...=20
=20 h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 / | Pat Griffin Reality=B2 Design | | c675311@showme.missouri.edu c675311@cclabs.missouri.edu | h t t p : / / w w w . m i s s o u r i . e d u / ~ c 6 7 5 3 1 1 /
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:12:19 -0500 (EST) From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@digital.dreamt.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: QR Empire single Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970405181124.14992B-100000@digital.dreamt.org>
On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Rick Audet wrote:
> I was digging through my roommate's CD's when I stumbled across this QR > single for "Empire", which also has "Scarborough Fair", "Prophecy", and > "Della Brown" on it. It's an import from Holland. Anyone know if this is > worth anything these days?
Are you so short of cash you have to start selling your roommate's shit? :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ Secretary & Webmaster cmerlo@cs.uvm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" UVM Comp Sci Student Assn d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" - Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2429 **************************
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