YTSEJAM Digest 2852
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Fates show revisited / NY show, too
by James Bako <jbako@intercall.com>
2) more tempo
by Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu>
3) YFFL; Bahr
by Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com>
4) just a few things
by Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com>
5) Unsound Crap
by caber1@concentric.net
6)
by Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca>
7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2851
by Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com>
8) Didn't go all the way back but ....
by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
9) Just curious, not arguing...
by Eric John Marlett <gt7262a@prism.gatech.edu>
10) ATTN: Jason Birzer
by Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com>
11) Justin . Mike Bahr
by "Korg Eksthrey" <KorgX3@cyberhighway.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:54:12 -0700
From: James Bako <jbako@intercall.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Fates show revisited / NY show, too
Message-ID: <33EFD054.7A90@intercall.com>
Pat Daugherty wrote:
>
> Brandon wrote:
> >Did anyone notice the guy selling flowers during "the 11th hour?" How
> >ignorant.
>
> Yeah what was the deal with that guy in a tux selling roses? Did he work
> for Jaxx? He was a total goof looking for any guy who was next to a girl.
> He did ask D-Man though... :)
Funny you mention this. At the Low-Down there was a guy who came in off
the street and just sauntered into the place hawking flowers. He wasn't
wearing a tux, so it couldn't POSSIBLY be the same guy; then again.....
As for the show itself, many many kudos to Ray and the boys for being
'troopers', and for 'making the best of the situation'. (his own words.
Yes, the venue/situation was really that pathetic.)
I guess my only gripe would be that they started from when Ray joins
into the song (the "So where do we begin" part), and the fact that the
material should really be heard with all the bells and whistle (i.e. the
stripped down arrangement does leave a bit to be desired). But I'm not
going to bitch; it was a helluva great show anyway.
Lastly, I was at the Low-Down once before, about two years ago, and I
thought back then that the layout of the club couldn't be worse. Guess
what ? IT GOT WORSE. If anyone remembers the place from Saturday, the
stage used to be where the pool table is now, with a BIG support column
right down the front-center of the stage.
James Bako
jbako@intercall.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:59:51 -0700
From: Chris Oates <aspect@cats.ucsc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: more tempo
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970811165940.006ffc04@cats.ucsc.edu>
>2) Your sequencer may have been programmed by an idiot. It may
>assume that the definition of tempo is "quarter notes per minute".
Brian Kirk: 100% Correct. However, as I said, just about ALL sequencers
cound in Quarter Notes per Minute rather than true beats. Go fig. Vision
does it. Cubase does it. Logic does it. I've used all three. And
Cakewalk (according to the original poster) does it.
Brian Wherry: Read Brian Kirk's post of you didn't understand mine. Math
does not cut it in understanding music. You can't just add up the
"fractions" and get anything meaningful. I can write an essay on the
subject if you want ...
---Regarding Mike Bahr:
I'm a busy person. I have much better things to do than spend hours hunting down rare DT recordings and putting them on CD. Mike Bahr's CDs are a deal compared to how much time I'd have to spend making them myself. But what's this avbout CD-R? Since when have his CDs been that? All mine are pressed CDs except for the PT beta I got at the con. Has there been a change?
__ /\ __ __\/__\/__ ~Chris \_||_/ http://www2.ucsc.edu/people/aspect/ /__||__\ // \ | \\ "Let nothing bleed into nothing, and did nothing at all" \| Jim Matheos, Fates Warning, "A Pleasant Shade of Gray"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:11:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com> To: Just Words <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: YFFL; Bahr Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970811184043.8851A-100000@parka.winternet.com>
Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com> did say:
> The teams in YFFL: > 8 Purple People Eaters, Ryan Hallum
Woohoo! A vikes fan! You live in the area?
> 7 Alabama Lines In The Sod, Mark Peters
This team deserves to win just for the name. :) I bow to the wordsmithing of Mark Peters.
------ On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Adam Cook wrote: > > Basically I saw a couple different types of arguments in defense of Bahr. > The first was, "Release boots that are better then Bahr or shut the fuck up > and stop complaining." These I have no response to because I'm against > making a profit off boots in the first place. Trading = good. Selling = > bad.
OK, lets look at some basic math. There are about 900 ytsejammers. When the question of "how many DT CD's do you own" came up a few weeks ago, the people who felt they owned enough to respond were saying things like "the studio releases plus 15 bootlegs." OK, so let's say there are 20 worthwhile boots, since many are of low quality, and some are boots of the same material. Jammers come and go, and there are may DT fans who are not on the net, so let's say 1000 people want bootlegs.
Since trading is good, and trading for blanks is acceptable, are _you_ going to sit at home and make 50 70-minute tapes for free? I suppose you'll get the other 19 boots as trades, but 31 of those trades were for blanks. I've got much better things to do with my time.
> What is he, a drug dealer?? When it comes down to it what he does is > illegal and not cool.
Should there be an analog to Godwin's Law to cover this case?
> I've been having trouble finding > Awake in some stores...will you copy some of those on CDR for me?
Oh please. In an unconscious, drunken stupor I can make a more intelligent arguement than that. (Then again, I just took the biggest piece of flame bait in the article. :)
> I never > commented on your little operation before but when I saw you giving CDR's > of boots and charging $20 for each one (I saw some of the originals for > $18-$19 in my local boot shop) I knew some screws were loose.
Where in hell do you live? I wanna live there! $20 for a boot in a store is a wet dream here, and I live in a good sized city. (Minneapolis/St. Paul area, ~3 million). I've never seen a boot (by a band that I care about) for less than $29 a disc. (I've seen a used 2-cd rush set, bought by a friend, that was $30. But that's used. Try to find a used DT boot here. Right.)
And wait, what were you doing in a boot shop in the first place? Isn't it your moral crusade to NOT pay for boots? You should just make tape copies over the net!
Of course, for people like me who don't own a functional tape deck (haven't bought tapes since high school, so why own a tape player?), this isn't even an option. Wanna make me some CD ROM boot copies?
> > And that drive costed how much? And the computer it's attached to > > costed how much? And it's costing me how much to stay home and do this > > all day, compared to working out of the house? Etc. > > Gee, I have a computer and I didn't need to make illegal cds to get it. You > can add anything to the cost of making your cd and drive up the price.
Go for it. If I buy you a CD ROM burner, will you make hundreds of discs a month for fans who deserve to have such things for free?
This is how capitalism works. I want boot CD's of bands I like. I can pay $20 to have them delivered to my door (well, my mailbox. I live in an apartment), or I can drive 30 minutes each way to downtown Mpls/StPaul where the 'boot shops' are, dig through bins for an hour or so, not know for sure if what I want will be there, and pay $25+ for the privilege.
I knew I took all that college math for a reason :)
--Jay "And if Mike is rich, why isn't anyone following in his footsteps?" Omega --NP: Djam Karet - Burning the Hard City
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:26:35 -0700 (MST) From: Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: just a few things Message-ID: <199708120026.RAA29628@goodnet.com>
Well, I know there has been a lot of talk about the CD's that my husband sells. I thought you might want to hear a few things from me. The CD's that Mike sells are for fans of DT, you do not have to but them if you do not like the way we do things around here. Mike puts a lot of time and money into these CD's and needs to get a little something back from it. Would you sit around and spend hours making something that you were not going to get anything from? Neither would I. Some of you people(you know who you are) do not realize how much it actually costs to do somethings like this. You have to buy so many things to get these CD's made and shipped. Some of you say that $25(now $20) is too much to pay, well then do not buy it, nobody is forcing you to send money to us for a CD. Mike does not buy the cheapest CDR's he can find, he buys CDR's that he knows are good quality, which cost more than the crappy ones, also you have to look at the shipping costs and the packaging costs. You may not realize but those packets that we send the CD's in ar not exactly cheap. As for one person who said "why don't you have your wife do it" all I have to say is that I do help Mike, so you can get off of my back right now. Mike started these CD's and yes I am always willing to help my husband, but I do not have to put up with anybody's shit. Like I said before no one makes you buy these, you buy them because you want the rare music that is one them.
Mike, does not do this for a living he does work for Equinox and I also work. He does these Cd's for a hobby and a little extra money. If neither one of us worked we would not be able to continue with the CD's and we would have to move back home with our parents. As it is we are moving into a house-rental with two other people to cover the costs of living.
I get many of E-mails everyday from many of you people on the jam...some about the CD'sand some about the video's. Some of you people e-mail me everyday wanting to know where your cd is, and I do not get mad and be rude to you, I always reply with the truth in a very friendly way. The only ones I really have to answer are the one's about the video's, but I take time out to check on your CD's or make a correction(address, worng CD, etc.). I do not mind letting you people know about your CD's as long as you are cool to me.
I do not understand what the problem is here. Do you people really think I like dealing with all this crap, beleive me when I say I have better things to do. Really people if you do not like the product Mike puts out do not buy it, and if you do not like the update he puts on the jam do not read it(just skip past it), do you think that I read every post...I read the one's I am interested in only (it will save you time and what ever else reason these post bother you).
As for the whole thing with Brian Cox...I was there, Mike and I were not married yet but we were living together. We let Brian and his friend stay at our house for nothing, just because they were cool. Mike did not tell Brian that the profits were enough to buy a new truck, what it was Mike bought the Truck from his parents, so with the profit from one of his CD's he paid off the rest of his loan, which was not that much. Brian did not have to give Mike the Holiday shows. Brian could have said no, but he didn't he copied them and sent them to Mike. Usually when someone helps Mike with a CD that person(s) gets something in return. If Brian does not like what Mike does then he should just keep quiet and stay out of it. I would not try to hurt someone if I did not like what they were doing. Would you? DOW cd has been out for a long time, so i am sure Brian new all about it.
I really like being on the JAM, even though I do not post here very often, I do read the JAM every day(several times a day as you all know how often there is a new one), I find soem of the post very interesting and some I do not read, this is what everyone should do. If you do not like a post do not read it. Well I hope this has not made anyone upset, I just thought I should say something about it. Take Care!!
- Melissa Bahr - emerald@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:48:22 -0700 From: caber1@concentric.net To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Unsound Crap Message-ID: <33F12028.5270@concentric.net>
Hi everyone,
Hehe, sitting here really is like "Beside A Horrible Roit."
> From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> > Subject: Re: Beside A Horrible Roit(BahrContent)
> Most of us veterans started our DT bootleg > collections by trading for blanks, not paying some rip-off dealer or crying > in the bathroom.
I don't know if you were around in the end of '96(last 4 months or so). But a lot of people were complaining about how someone(not mentioning any names) had promised to make dubs. Hey, didn't someone start a list because of this?
> Also, I never paid more than $20 for a single disc boot > from a dealer (doubles were always $40), so the fact that Mike's prices > have come down from $25 to $20, still only puts his discs at the same price > as most Imported bootlegs.
Hmm, $20? What was the shipping? Or a better question would be where is this place, I want some? :) A lot of dealers rip you off. They'll take your money, and, you'll never see them again! Or the other big problem is that they'll give you another boot of another band, without telling you! :P Hey, didn't someone start a list because of this?
> So your arguments here aren't really relevant.
Crap, I didn't know I was trying to be relevant..uh, I mean argue! I would have quoted from someone, and start spouting a lot of swear words! And say how this someone doesn't belong and the jam. And I'm the only one fit to read about NDTC! But, I didn't know... ---- To whose of you who think us Americans don't know other languages, you're wrong. I'm a typical American, and, I could easily communicate in other countries. For instance, if I was in Europe I could speak French as easily as English. I know shit, and, fuck. So, there won't be a problem when I have to buy a Hanson CD! Also, if I was in Japan, I would not only know that language(Japanese, duh) I would revolutionize the language! Since, I know only the word choo-choo-nah-co. Better known in English as the word 'squeak.' I would have to phrase my sentences really carefully around it. So, there! :)
John McCabe the only true unsound arguer caber1@concentric.net
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:39:58 -0400 From: Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca> To: ytsejam@ax.com Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970811203957.006f0eb8@mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca>
> If you have moral problems with bootlegging, talk to a priest. I >don't, and I made that decision long ago, so I literally would not be able >to grasp your angst in this situation.
What nonsense. Since when did morals imply religion? You have morals, I have morals, everyone has their own moral beliefs. I share the same view as the person you quoted, but I don't leave it to some fucking priest to program my brain. And frankly, as someone who believes in atheism, but does not share your view, I take offense to this type of comment.
If you can't handle criticism of what you're doing (which happens to be against the law, whether you think it should be or not... and whether one member of the band thinks it's okay, it's still theft), then don't respond. Don't turn it into a religious issue. I believe you misinterpret the thread. I don't remember anyone saying you shouldn't make your bootlegs because their priest says so.
What we (I anyway) are saying, is that you are being dishonest. Sure they want to buy your stuff. That's their perogative. Just like gas stations (where I live at least) think it's okay to jack up the prices by 20% on long weekends. That doesn't make it acceptable in most people's minds. Especially when you constantly try to disguise the fact that you're turning a huge profit, and ripping off the people who are the sources of your material in the first place. Hell, I'd rather that you just copy other bootlegs and make money that way, than take advantage of people like Brian Cox.
Your "I'm so short of cash because I'm spending so much money on making these CD's" and "I make very little profit on this" sympathy/attention grabbing scams are getting rather old. Fortunately, the truth is now out in the open, and everyone knows by now that stuff was a load of misleading crap. But I'll give you credit for one thing: you sure as hell know how to sell stuff.
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:53:11 -0700 (MST) From: Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2851 Message-ID: <199708120053.RAA04211@goodnet.com>
> I remember shortly after he started creating CD's, he was talking about > reducing the prices to $22 or something like that, and eventually lower. I > wonder what ever happened to that plan? I guess when he started really
The prices have been lowered to $20 if you would check the website.
> raking in the profits, and had tested the water in terms of legal stuff, he > decided he could make this his livelihood. He saw the money and took it... > I would've done the same. But that doesn't make it right.
This is not his lively hood. I do not know what you people think he makes off of these. Beleive me when i say we can not live off of this. We both have to work. Just because Mike works out of the house does not mean that he does not work. He works for Equinox as do I and work another job as weel.
> I think I might have been too generuos in my previous message when I > estimated what it must cost him... heck, if he made enough money to buy a > new truck off the CD's way back in '95, I wouldn't be surprised if he's
He did not buy a new truck...he just paid off the loan which was not that much as to how he bought the truck from his parents. So if you do not know the true facts then SHUT UP!
> And before anyone says it, yes, I am jealous... I've run my own business > since I was 14, doing stuff I enjoy, and I've made more money than most of > my friends who've slaved their butts off in part-time jobs, but I did it > honestly and through creativity and hard work, not playing Nintendo games > and Magic cards (my brother played that, but he outgrew it when he was > 12... and yes, that was a shot) all day while CD's burn...
None of you people know what he does everyday...since I live with him, let me tell you. He does not sit around and play games while CD's burn. He runs a successful business through Equinox, which is not all fun and games. He works his butt off. In fact you can ask him, I am always complaining because I do not get enough time with him. So he plays Nintendo and Magic once in a while, haven't you every played a game for fun to rleax? So until you know exactly what he does ecah day maybe you should keep quiet. You people need to learn that Mike only does these CD's to make fans of DT happy. So he makes a little money off of it...would you want to sit around and do the same thing all day and not get anything from it? I really don't think so. Take Care!
- Melissa Bahr - emerald@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:11:39 -0400 From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Didn't go all the way back but .... Message-ID: <199708120111.VAA16539@wicked.stigmata.org>
Dr MOSH said:
> Well... I picked up the new Divine Regale album... Ocean Mind, on > first listen, these guys are intriquing... they're definitely not a DT > clone... they run the gamut from Damn the Machine, Rush, to > Queensryche and their own sound... I would recommend it.
These guys are definately good. They opened for Fates in CT (more on that later) and I thoroughly enjoyed their performace (even if the singer did have a 2' by 4' walking space on the stage) The other band they reminded me of some is Ivanhoe, I definately heard some of their sound in there. (it was an I not an O for the people who were at the show with me) Someone else said "They kinda sound like DT and Megadeth put together", definately heard some of that in there.
Noel Ontiveros wrote:
> Hey everyone. I'm still pretty new to the JAM so I wanted to start up > a little questionnaire just to find out what you YTSEJAMMERS like.
AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE (there's that word again) send ALL replies DIRECTLY to Noel.
Eric John Marlett said:
> A while ago there was some discussion on the Jam about the possibility > of Fan Club members getting a special edition CD like the Christmas > one, but
]From the MP IRC Interview:
<Askme> Speaking of the fan club, will there be another Christmas bonus CD this year? <MikeP> most likely <MikeP> i'd like to do one every year
I would have to guess that will have some studio outtakes from the recording of FII or maybe a new song. Mike has already said NONE of the songs besides the ones on the album have been recorded.
Carlo D'Angelo said:
> (saw them in CT and NJ)
and you didn't say hello to me because .... ? (hallum, rachael and i ALL had ytsejam shirts on)
Ernie said:
> OR make a whole new ytsejam for the new 'fans'
My vote goes to Ernie for moderator :) I have ENOUGH trouble trying to control you people :P
Mike Bahr wrote:
> Moore is Catholic, and the other members of the band are various > flavors of Christian.
JP's family (so I would assume he as well) is Catholic. He got married in a Catholic Church and my Mom has even spoken with he and Rena in the same Catholic Church.
Blah ... more in a few
Skadz
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:14:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric John Marlett <gt7262a@prism.gatech.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Just curious, not arguing... Message-ID: <199708120114.VAA27819@acmey.gatech.edu>
> Apparently you are the one with little knowledge of the issue. It has > been proven that to mass produce CDs of several hundred, it's cheaper > (per unit) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > to have them done by a CD printing plant, then it is to burn them all > onto CDr. For smaller orders, CDr is the way to go.
Ok, I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument here, I'd just like to understand what you're saying. Subconscious, AD, AQ, all these were prints of 500. WDATU, SFAM, these were prints of 1000. Given this, wouldn't a printing plant be the way to go? From what you said it seems that way. I may be completely wrong, I recognize that. I'm not an expert in this field, I'm just going on what I remember from the past couple years. I haven't kept up with his most recent projects so if things have changed at all, I wasn't aware. If I'm not mistaken, he did use a printing plant at some point, right Mike, or am I way off?
Eric
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:22:31 -0700 (MST) From: Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: ATTN: Jason Birzer Message-ID: <199708120122.SAA07952@goodnet.com>
Jason,
Hi there! Your sent in an order for a video, I must have a really big brain fart becuase I can not remember which video you wanted. Please email me at:emerald@goodnet.com to let me know so i can add it to the update. Thanks!
Melissa - Melissa Bahr - emerald@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:20:17 -0600 From: "Korg Eksthrey" <KorgX3@cyberhighway.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Justin . Mike Bahr Message-ID: <199708120125.SAA05416@odin.ax.com>
I'm making a public apology to Justin for the time being. :D I think I may have jumped to conclusions obout this posting. We incriminated the poor guy on evidence a machine pops out at random. I sent a message to Netcom asking them to investigate further into this forged header crisis we've been experienceing before throwing all the blame on Justin. If they have any mean to trace it, I think they will. It's a matter of their own personally security that they get behind who's doing it now, so maybe that thought might entice them to action.
On a lighter note: Justin, just tell your Dad to quit sending nasty massages to the jam. :)
About the Mike Bahr contraversy, I'm quite pissed that I had to skim through all this shit. Mike's a cool dude, I'm sure, and he's making his living off of this. So what makes him any different than anyone else?
1) If you like to collect bootlegs and want to buy Mike's bootlegs, more power to you.
2) If you don't like the practice of bootlegging why start with Mike? There are much bigger and larger companies that print mass quantities of bootlegs. Mike prints bootlegs, yes, but he also limits the amount of copies he makes so there isn't an incredible influx of booted material being forced out into the market. There have even been times when the bands have asked him to refrain from printing their discs and he has done a good job of doing so. Any other bootlegger would have done it anyway. Mike's evidently a respectable guy. (And he's good at covering his ass.) ;)
3) If you don't like Mike's bootlegs, don't buy them. I don't recall ever seeing a law that enforces all 'jammers to own Mike's bootlegs. If you think Mike charges too much, that's your problem, not his. Someone else will more than likely buy the CD you didn't.
I think that's all we need to know about Mike. If you have any further questions, take them to him through personal mail, please. He's not some icon sitting on a pedestal here, he's just another dude. If you don't like me, then fuck off. :) But that's another matter.
Enuff from me... KorgX3 KorgX3@cyberhighway.net
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2852 **************************
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