YTSEJAM Digest 2851
Today's Topics:
1) Matt Bahr
by Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com>
2) unsubscribing
by kristopher long <long16@matrix.newpaltz.edu>
3) Re: Dammit!
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
4) re: netcom
by jsj@ix.netcom.com (J. E. James)
5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2850
by durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
6) Bahr
by "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
7) Gus Therapist
by Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2850
by durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
9) Re: Ray Alder and Ytsejam shirt and the internet
by mrkizer@CCGATE.HAC.COM
10) arash's mp3's
by Mathew and Melissa <palze@tcccom.net>
11) Save me a seat on the bandwagon...
by Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:59:15 -0400
From: Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com>
To: "'(ytsejam)'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Matt Bahr
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=bostech%l=CARRIER-970811215915Z-1064@carrier.btrd.bostontechnology.com>
Well, now that people are piling on Mr. Bahr, I think that it would be
good to make a few points.
Gratitude. Until something drastic occurs (like the FanClub getting
into the sale of unreleased material) Mike is the principle vehicle that
we as a group have to receive this material. We should be supportive.
Constructive criticism. It would be great if all received orders for
one CD would be filled before the shipping of the next CD began. I seem
to always be reading the reviews of the *next* CD before I receive my
previous one.
Technicality. When people start to add up all of the costs, we should
try to be more accurate. I can get blank jewel cases in quantities of
one for $0.75 per item. When ordering in quantities of 500+, I'm sure
that the price is less than $0.75.
Disclaimer. Hey I fully admit that I'm jealous. What a hell of a way
to earn your coin. Do some people have all the luck ?? Yup. Life's
hard. Move on.
Later,
Mark Metzger
mmetzger@bostech.com
PS - Warren From Oregon would be having a field day with the current
state of affairs on the jam ...... (Whassssup old fart ??)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:21:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: kristopher long <long16@matrix.newpaltz.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: unsubscribing
Message-ID: <199705152321.TAA01960@matrix.newpaltz.edu>
school's over so that means i have no e-mail for three months so could
someone please e-mail me personally and tell how to unsubscribe, i forgot!
thanks a bunch.
Kris Long
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:20:36 -0400
From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Dammit!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970811182036.00faf7d0@pophost.fore.com>
>
>I don't where you're getting your info, but every CD Bahr produces is not
>CDR. He creates commercial grade CD's identical to the ones you buy in a
>store. He sends them away to a CD printing plant, and he gets artwork
>pressed onto the CD, then there's the liner notes. All that ain't
>cheap.....Don't criticize things you know little about.
Apparently you are the one with little knowledge of the issue. It has been
proven that to mass produce CDs of several hundred, it's cheaper (per unit)
to have them done by a CD printing plant, then it is to burn them all onto
CDr. For smaller orders, CDr is the way to go. So Mike definitely knows
what he's doing here to save a penny. Roughly, it costs Mike about $5 to
produce 1 CD (materials only). Add a generous $5 per CD for his time, and
he's still coming away with a FREE $15. You're trying so hard to defend
him, that you're ignoring obvious.
And for the record, I want to back up Brian Cox. I've been here almost as
long as him, and this guy was the NUMERO UNO for taping DT shows. Brian, I
think your proposition for the free DAT shows is getting the jam back on
track. Hope you stick around - I've been missing some of the vets around
here. Where the hell's Burstin?
KAI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:32:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: jsj@ix.netcom.com (J. E. James)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: re: netcom
Message-ID: <199708112232.RAA14850@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
>This Dr.D guy is NOT Justin. He's impostering him <sigh>... I guess it's
>the same wee.wee loser. (Did you notice he said "please don't shut down
>the netcom account"?) I don't mean to continue this on the Jam, since it's
>really something that should be dealt with in private with Skadz and this
>guy's postmaster, but DO NOT COMPLAIN TO NETCOM!
Thank you for sticking up for me Lars. I have no hard feelings towards you nor
everyone else who thought I was this Dr D fellow. I may have jumped to
conclusions myself if this had happened to somebody else on the list. I do not
anticipate having any major difficulties with Netcom, because I think I can prove
to them that it was not me posting these things, however, if I do have trouble
with them, it would be greatly appreciated if the people who mailed netcom
accusing me, could mail them again explaining that you were mistaken.
Thanks
Lord Mutilo (the real Justin)
jsj@ix.netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:38:31 -0700 (MST)
From: durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Cc: durnik@goodnet.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2850
Message-ID: <199708112238.PAA12284@goodnet.com>
Oh my.
I just read an entire Jam where virtually every post was about me.
This is good when it's the defense stuff, and not so good when it's stuff
like Brian Cox threatening to tell their label what I'm up to. I think
I'll just shut up and not say anything more after this post. I really
appreciate all of you who have come to my defense here. I hope that those
of you who don't like what I do will take your energies and put them into
doing what I do better than I do it. That way the buyers will have an
option.
> Okay, if you're new to the list you probably haven't heard of Mike Bahr.
> He produces bootlegs on CD. He charges about $25(and now $20, I think).
Yes, they're now $20 per disc. This change applies to multiple
sets too ($40 for doubles, and Virtual Songs is sold out, and I'm never
doing another triple, so it's not affected).
> Hmm, what else is there to say about Mike? He is the only bootlegger
> that DT approves of. It's not only 1/5 of the band, too. From what I
> understand MP doesn't represent what DT says as a band. The band as a
I don't name-drop because it's not fair to the band and to their
management to make claims about who supports me. So I hope we can just
make this a silent topic from here on out... everyone is free to
speculate, but if it gets talked about too much, I *will* have to shut
down, and nobody wants that.
> If ya don't like the price of the bootlegs, then make your own bootlegs.
Marcel had a good thing going with Carpe Diem. I am kind of
curious about what ever happened to him. Why no second release, and so
forth. He could do it, right? You guys (and gals) would support him,
wouldn't you? You know, I hope that tons of people try to do what I do.
That way I'll have more awesome DT boots to listen to.
> I sure wouldn't wanna be in Mike's shoes though, first his equipment
> breaks down, now he's getting shit about his business on the jam...ick.
It's been just that kind of summer. :) The defense of so many
loyal friends here has been very gratifying. At least this shit started up
_after_ I got the new burner working. I made and shipped 10 copies of E2E
all in one day! Now THAT is efficiency!! :)
> Well, there have been times during which I've felt that he's been very misleading. I
> hope Mike understands the frustration and thinks about it before he responds.
I have a curse: people seem generally inclined NOT to believe
things I say. I grew up with it, I think it has to do with my weasely
personality. I try to compensate with what most would say is an overkill
of abundance of detail... I shower people with facts so that there can be
no doubt in their mind what the real story is.
> stuff. If you pay $300 for your source, $7 per disc, $2-3 for inserts and jewel boxes (which
> don't cost $2, Vince :) and then pay for shipping, it can get a bit hairy. Still... he's
Grin.. jewel cases are about 40 cents for singles and 80 for
doubles.
> The more cds you make, the less they end up costing your a piece. Bahr is dropping his prices
> as his overhead decreases, so hopefully he won't turn into a KTS type thing.
I think this guy just hit the nail on the head. If my intentions
were truly deplorable, would you see me lowering my prices across the
board as soon as I got a break on overhead costs, even in the midst of the
crunch of replacing the CD burner? And so I did... the prices are lowered.
> What needs to happen, is someone has to come by and reproduce all of Bahrs better
> material on cds for less money. He's got almost a monopoly here. No one else markets
> bootlegs to this list. If someone would compete with him or even reproduce the exact same
Again, I hope someone else starts doing this too. I would collect
their bootlegs as well. I wouldn't replicate them either... that just
wouldn't be fair to a fellow Jammer.
As for me having a monopoly on the material... well, "no shit,
sherlock!" :) I try to acquire the best material possible for my CDs, and
that generally means digging a little deeper than most boot traders go in
their collecting hobby. Thanks to the kindness of the people that DO have
the material, everyone can enjoy it.
> to the effect of "I don't have any intention of getting a real job"...)
I think that quote is taken out of context. I will always be a
private businessman of some sort. I won't ever get a "real job" because I
don't want an hourly wage and an incompetent boss and hassles and
limits... I would rather take the risk of having my personal income linked
to the fortune or misfortune of the company, and have my personal reward
linked in that way as well, and to make the decisions that make that
company tick.
> If you set aside $2 (generuos) from each CD for the cost of the burner and
> misc hardware, it would pay for itself after half a print run. An the
I don't even know where to begin telling you what's wrong with
this math. :)
> profit per CD. If he's not making at least that, then he's doing a poor
> job at running his operation.
OK, YOU do it. :)
Continued in post #2...
- Mike Bahr - durnik@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:51:06 -0400
From: "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Bahr
Message-ID: <199708112253.SAA09684@zork.tiac.net>
Oh goody! The entire Jam hates me! I love this place.
First of all, I don't know if Wherry is going to respond, I think he's said
all he needs to and maybe he's not into (intelligent) flaming as much as I
am...but I enjoy a good heated debate...
Basically I saw a couple different types of arguments in defense of Bahr.
The first was, "Release boots that are better then Bahr or shut the fuck up
and stop complaining." These I have no response to because I'm against
making a profit off boots in the first place. Trading = good. Selling =
bad.
The next one is that Bahr's operation is okay because he's part of the
ytsejam "family" and he supplies us with stuff we can't get other places.
What is he, a drug dealer?? When it comes down to it what he does is
illegal and not cool. Brian Cox said himself he had DATs of stuff Bahr is
going to make a profit of. Look around and trade. It's worth it.
Mike Bahr wrote:
> Oh yeah, thats a salient point I forgot to mention. I'm at or
> lower than the market standard, so I guess all is well.
Oh how nice. You're making less of a profit then the rest of the
bootleggers out there. How
nice of you..
> Well, I think he meant my CD replicas of foreign boots. I am
> starting those becuase the originals are getting hard to find, and lots
of
> people ask me if I offer them. So I figured I would.
Uhm, yeah. So what's your excuse for how illegal it is? You take an already
illegal bootleg and copy it and make a huge profit on each disc. That's no
better then copying commercial material. I've been having trouble finding
Awake in some stores...will you copy some of those on CDR for me? I never
commented on your little operation before but when I saw you giving CDR's
of boots and charging $20 for each one (I saw some of the originals for
$18-$19 in my local boot shop) I knew some screws were loose.
> And that drive costed how much? And the computer it's attached to
> costed how much? And it's costing me how much to stay home and do this
all
> day, compared to working out of the house? Etc.
Gee, I have a computer and I didn't need to make illegal cds to get it. You
can add anything to the cost of making your cd and drive up the price.
> Why would it take "balls" to say something against me? Am I some
> kind of internet bully? Like I'm gonna give you a swirly or a wedgie when
> I find out you posted out against me? :) Actually, that's kinda funny.
You saw the reaction flaming you got Mr. Wherry. Most people don't like to
get flamed like that so therefor I consider what he did as pretty
courageous.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:56:03 -0700
From: Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Gus Therapist
Message-ID: <199708112256.PAA14956@main.cfmc.com>
Weighing in on a few things:
1) Mike Bahr's time on the list doesn't necessitate us bowing before him or
reveling in his glory or anything. That isn't at all why I hold him and his
work in high esteem. You ever BOUGHT a boot, man? They're often expensive
and the sound quality and packaging often lacks. I've only bought one of
Mike's discs -- the "Critical Mass" release. And I'll tell you -- the sound
quality is first-rate...it's clearly the definitive recording of the tour.
The CD is probably STILL a tick below market value (and, with Mike charging
$20 a disc now, I'd say he's WELL below market value), which leaves Mike in
the position of being one of the MOST reputable guys in the business. I'm
hardly the only satisfied customer here. If you begrudge the guy his right
to profit off his time and effort, you're only spinning your wheels. Go
ahead...though I have some misgivings about it, I don't think tape swapping
is all that egregious a sin. But the market LIKES what Mike does and I'm
interested in hearing about what's on the horizon -- I will certainly wind
up a repeat customer. At the moment, I'm in the same fiscal position as a
lot of folks here...things are a wee bit tight. When they aren't, I'll
probably go through and pick up a couple more discs. I think Capitalism is
working here....and, as a libertarian-type, I'm eager to see what someone
ELSE might do. If you're unhappy about it, I'd encourage you to find
another source...or, better still, BE another source.
2) Language is a bitch. I belong to a couple of eggheaded mailing lists
where posts in a foreign language aren't at all a rare thing. And, oh, is
that fun for me to deal with. I struggle just trying to put together a
sentence in German or Spanish, much less form a coherent thought. Those of
you who are struggling with the language have my respect for your struggle.
Those of us who're native speakers may be able to pick something up from the
process.
Five Gratuitous CD's:
=====================
1. Rush: Test for Echo
2. Galactic Cowboys: The Horse That Bud Bought
3. Dar Williams: End of the Summer
4. Charlie Haden/Pat Metheny: Beyond the Missouri Sky
5. Mr. Big: Hey Man
Adam D. Barnhart
adamb@cfmc.com
ydnt85a@prodigy.com
http://www.cfmc.com/adamb
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:58:57 -0700 (MST)
From: durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2850
Message-ID: <199708112258.PAA15555@goodnet.com>
More from the last post. The first one is the real doozy.
Brian Cox writes...
> well i am a veteran of this list for over 4 years now..some of you
> may remember me from the tape tree of the birch hill 12/95 show.
Yes, we remember. The one you ditched because people were giving
you a hard time about it.
> this cd contains material that i personally taped. mike bahr sent blank
> DATs to me and i copied the shows for him *at no cost to him*, because
> he wanted the 4 shows.
> now that he is putting them out on cd and profiting off my tapes i am
> quite pissed. i have never said anything publicly about him in the past,
Brian, don't pretend for a moment that you didn't know about this.
This is actually pretty despicable. Mike Portnoy himself asked me to make
a CD based on the Holidays material. I conveyed this information to Brian,
and he made the clones for me. Additionally, Brian was on the CD gravy
train in appreciation for his help until I lost track of where he moved
to. Plus, given that you never respond to e-mail, Brian, you're a
difficult fellow to get ahold of.
> prices for illegal cd's (they are illegal mike, why do you think 800,000
> cds were confiscated last month in orlando?)
Again... *I* *DON'T* *CARE*. If you're so morally superior, then
call the feds and have me busted. Nobody cares what I do, as far as
legality goes. Print runs of a couple hundred CDs just don't *matter*.
> mike even told me when i stayed with him back in '95 that he bought a new
> truck off all the money he made from the cd's.
This also is taken out of context. Boy, people have a hard time
with this. You know, what I do isn't some giant conspiracy. Most of what I
do is about as complex as farting in an elevator.
Brian stayed at my pad (for free, I might add) during May 1995
when we were seeing the Promised Land tour shows. I had done all my CDs
professionally back then. The very real threat of shutdown lingered over
my head as the CD plants might get wise to what I was doing at any moment.
Since my parents had paid for most of what I owned before I began doing
CDs, I had to take care of paying off my student loan and my truck loan
(which was only $4000 anyway) as soon as possible when I began to have a
positive return on CDs... this is during the Subconscious and Cygnus
era... so that if the unthinkable happened, I would not financially
cripple my family were I to go to jail or something. I mentioned in
passing to Brian that I used the profits from Subconscious to pay off my
truck. And there you have it. Swimming in money I _ain't_... in fact I
have to move out of these apartments because I can't afford to stay here
anymore ($600/mo rent) and we have to move in with two other paying
tenants into a house-rental situation. We're pretty cheesed about it.
> being put out, and i didnt even know about it until today. since the
Horse shit. You knew about it before you sent me the DATs.
> band is aware that i taped these shows (i sent DATs to portnoy) i feel
> that i must protect myself by informing dt's management about this
> project and letting them know that i had no part in it.
DT does not currently have a manager. We will be informed as to
who their new management is when FII comes out. They may go back to
Focus, or they might not.. nobody knows at this point. I know for a fact
that their old mgmt didn't care when they were shown TDOW.
I want to have everyone note right now that if Brian makes a big
enough noise, there is the very real possibility that I will no longer be
here to provide these CDs. And I just want everyone to keep track of who
caused it, should it happen.
> my DATs. i will let anyone copy the entire shows onto CD-R for free.
Go ahead. (chuckle). We'll see how long THIS lasts. All the
preparation, the hard drive space you'll need, the copying, the
failures... dude, you make me laugh LOUD with the above statement. If a
simple DAT tree frustrated you enough to quit, what the hell makes you
think you can do what I do now? I'll say this: Good luck, and go for it.
> mike, this is pretty low. the least you could have done is told me
> about this..
Brian, what you've done today is far, far lower. I can't believe
you'd go on a one-man crusade to fuck over my life. As if it needed any
help right now. I'm pretty damn ".disgusted" with you as well. Is this the
thanks I get for hosting you for those concerts? Geez. You can't even keep
track of your own e-mail, but you have time to slander me in a public
forum. Go back to the rock you were hiding under. I don't think I deserved
ANY of this. Just to make you happy, I'll stop production on TDOW and
destroy your precious holiday DATs. They're old news now anyway, except
for the snippets that made it onto TDOW. (yes, I'll fulfill all TDOW
orders already in the queue).
Another poster writes...
> Unlike you, i and many others have no interest in swaping tapes so
> Mike's cd's provide a service to the non-trader by putting everything
> on one(or two) cd's.
This is true also. Not many people have the time or inclination to
do tape trades. They want a CD for the car stereo and they work pretty
much all the time. I fill that need perfectly.
> I have no problem buying a cd from Mike or the reason he makes
> them because i know he does it as a hobby and not as a full time
Part time job, actually, but I could do them as a religion and it
still wouldn't change the product any. :)
> p.s Mike , how about a photo for the gallery?
OK, I'll add one to my page that you can copy over if you like.
> in the bathroom. Also, I never paid more than $20 for a single disc boot
> from a dealer (doubles were always $40), so the fact that Mike's prices
> have come down from $25 to $20, still only puts his discs at the same price
Then you're the lucky one. They never could be had for less than
$30 in the Phoenix area, and I've always been scoping for good deals. Not
all people live in Miami, NYC, or LA, where boots are cheap (they were
$17-21 in New York City when I was there).
> KAI (still trying to figure out how I can get rich quick by bootlegging
> Bahr's bootlegs)
Go ahead if you want to... I'm fair game if anyone else is, after
all. I booted the Italian boots, but then again, as evidenced by boots
like Stranger than Fiction and Uncovered, they've booted mine as well.
> I don't where you're getting your info, but every CD Bahr produces is not
> CDR. He creates commercial grade CD's identical to the ones you buy in a
> store. He sends them away to a CD printing plant, and he gets artwork
> pressed onto the CD, then there's the liner notes. All that ain't
> cheap.....Don't criticize things you know little about.
Actually, Eric, the local CD plant shut down. I'm stuck using CDRs
for everything... for now. Just today, I found out about a new plant that
I'm gonna try to use, and it would really speed things up.
> End of YTSEJAM Digest 2850
> **************************
Woohoo! I got an EOJ.
- Mike Bahr - durnik@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:56:51 PST8
From: mrkizer@CCGATE.HAC.COM
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Ray Alder and Ytsejam shirt and the internet
Message-ID: <9707118713.AA871333199@CCGATE.HAC.COM>
>When I was talking to Ray after the show Friday, he made note of my
>Ytsejam shirt. He asked if I was on the internet and stuff. He says he
>knows nothing about the net and once his wife was trying to get him to
>come read something on the net but he wouldn't hear of it.
hehe... funny thing was, last September after I first put up the Fates web
page, Ray's wife emailed me a similar story...that she was going to try and get
Ray to check out all of the various Fates web pages and stuff.... I guess he
never did... ;-)
.---------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| ~Michael Kizer -----<***>----- Tucson, Arizona | mrkizer@ccgate.hac.com |
| URL: http://www.goodnet.com/~mkizer | mkizer@goodnet.com |
| /\/\_ Fates Warning - Island in the Stream _/\/\ | fugazi@weirdness.com |
| \/\/ Dream Theater - "Unofficial" Song Book \/\/ +------------------------|
| * Sola sapientia est qui me in merda posuit * | ICQ UIN# 2070538 |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:04:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mathew and Melissa <palze@tcccom.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: arash's mp3's
Message-ID: <199708112304.SAA00877@bsd-03.tcccom.net>
hi all!
i was able to download all these files. thanks arash! :)
mathew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:52:55 -0400
From: Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Save me a seat on the bandwagon...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970811195255.006f0eb8@mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca>
>now that he is putting them out on cd and profiting off my tapes i am
>quite pissed. i have never said anything publicly about him in the past,
>but now i feel i must. from the beginning he has been charging inflated
>prices for illegal cd's (they are illegal mike, why do you think 800,000
>cds were confiscated last month in orlando?)
At the start, I could fully understand it. 2-3 years ago (or whenever
Subconscious came out), the cost of CD burners and a computer with the HD
space, etc. to handle the projects was much more expensive. At that point
I think he was genuinely doing it without any expectations of making money.
But now that he's had time to streamline the operation, and figure out the
best/cheapest ways to do things, I would think he's reduced the cost by at
least $5-10 per CD. I think it's no secret why prices haven't come down.
I remember shortly after he started creating CD's, he was talking about
reducing the prices to $22 or something like that, and eventually lower. I
wonder what ever happened to that plan? I guess when he started really
raking in the profits, and had tested the water in terms of legal stuff, he
decided he could make this his livelihood. He saw the money and took it...
I would've done the same. But that doesn't make it right.
I'm especially disappointed to hear that he's profiting off of stuff that
he gets for free. And I bet the majority of his material he does get for
free, because he's "such a nice guy". If I were you (Brian), I'd be mighty
pissed, and do everything possible to put a stop to what he's doing (he's
made enough money as it is, so it won't hurt him).
I think I might have been too generuos in my previous message when I
estimated what it must cost him... heck, if he made enough money to buy a
new truck off the CD's way back in '95, I wouldn't be surprised if he's
making close to $20 profit on each CD now. I have no problem with someone
making that much money honestly, but the way he's just ripped you off, as
well as other people who've sent him boots is ridiculous. He milks money
out of loyal fans by the thousands.
And before anyone says it, yes, I am jealous... I've run my own business
since I was 14, doing stuff I enjoy, and I've made more money than most of
my friends who've slaved their butts off in part-time jobs, but I did it
honestly and through creativity and hard work, not playing Nintendo games
and Magic cards (my brother played that, but he outgrew it when he was
12... and yes, that was a shot) all day while CD's burn...
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2851
**************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 17:59:45 EST