YTSEJAM Digest 2856
Today's Topics:
1) pantera live!
by Bear Jason <vjason@bwc.org>
2) The danger of bootlegs - or the lack thereof -
by akyuz@ltp.dmx.epfl.ch
3) In Defense of Mike Bahr...
by dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
4) Re: Progressive Tape Swap
by dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
5) Re: Save me a seat on the bandwagon...
by dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
6) In Defense of Mr. bahr
by Markus Stahl <stahl@primenet.com>
7) Butt-leg ?
by gra@provida.no
8) Bahr
by "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
9) In for the field goal attempt...Mike Bahr!
by psull@ici.net (Pat Sullivan)
10) The Bahr Debate ....
by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
11) Bahr -- the point!
by Brian Wherry <bwherry@mathworks.com>
12) My Take On Mike Bahr...
by "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil>
13) STRANGER THAN FICTION >>>><<<<SUBCONCIOUS
by "D. Schoen" <denis.schoen@tip.nl>
14) reply to bahr
by Brian Cox <lerxst@metronet.com>
15) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2848
by Scarred1@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:33:01 +0300 (IDT)
From: Bear Jason <vjason@bwc.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: pantera live!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970812143039.24095A-100000@dove>
Dudes!
Pantera's new live cd kick ass from here to january!! 16 tracks! 2 new
never before published tunes, which rule! pure adrenaline! dudes!!
AWESOME!!!!
later all
bear
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:15:01 +0200
From: akyuz@ltp.dmx.epfl.ch
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: The danger of bootlegs - or the lack thereof -
Message-ID: <v03007800b015fd2abac7@[128.178.99.38]>
Hiya jamanutz,
Back from a long holiday, I just discovered this huge booleg thread going
on. Well, I have one CD from Mike and I bought it for what was on it, and
not because I'm a "must have rare stuff" kind of person. Mike is reliable
and does good work.
Here, I'd like to point out that that the benefit he makes out of each CD
is peanuts compared to the benefit per market CD you put into the pocket of
label assholes. It is therefore utmost disgusting to ask for any
justification whatsoever to Mike for his production costs. Simple: if you
find it's too expensive, don't buy it. That way,
1. you will not clutter the jam
2. you will save 25 bucks
3. you will not make an asshole of yourself
Now to the main point of this post:
Bootleg being definitely an underground concept, i.e. completely the
opposite of mainstream, the size of the market is essentially the mass of
die-hard fans such as most of the ones present on this mailing list. By
numbers and dollar figures, this market is in 99.999999% of the cases
outweighed by the commercial - what I would call "mainstream" - market.
There are however, many cases where the underground momentum took to
amazing proportions: Metallica, S.O.D., DT, Iron Maiden are one the first
few I can think of right now. In each of the cases, the momentum was
snapped by an official commercial release of the much-demanded product. For
the fans, this is seen as a victory (see ACoS), but again, none less than
that of the record company who
1. manages to bring to a halt a potentially damagable underground momentum;
2. makes substantial sales of the much-demanded product since the die-hard
fans who already have the bootleg version will dive head first for the
official release, adding to the number of CDs sold to the common
"occasional" fans.
All this rambling to show that (IMO, of course) bootlegs cannot kill the
business nor even hurt it. Bootlegs are the most solid and faithful form of
sustainablility for a band. No wonder have bootlegs and commercialism
coexisted for all these years. Bootlegging has not been wiped out, for the
simple reason that it can be managed by the commercial business at ease, as
I mentioned earlier.
D A V E K I N G
b a s s & h a r m o n y
M T 2 0
p r o g r e s s i v e m e t a l
http://websites.maxess.ch/mt20
IRC : DaveKing
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Cc: durnik@goodnet.com
Subject: In Defense of Mike Bahr...
Message-ID: <v01520d00b015cc256d5d@[207.90.117.185]>
Mike: keep up!! Don't let the bastards drag you down.
Ytsejammers who have supported Mike in the past: remember what new and
exciting stuff you heard through his CDs...
Any tapetraders not "into selling": well, then, DON'T sell. And no one is
forcing you to buy either. Furthermore, don't worry that other people do
buy/sell. Many people still think that Mike Bahr's CDs are WELL worth
it...
Dan
---+ +---
Dan Temmesfeld - mailto:dantemm@erinet.com
"Home of the Galactic Cowboys Pages"
http://www.cedarville.edu/student/s1133627/gcowboys.htm
Summer 1997 Update site:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/1853/
---+ +---
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:38:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Progressive Tape Swap
Message-ID: <v01520d03b015d083740f@[207.90.117.185]>
>It's pretty simple, you make 3 compilation tapes for people,
>and you get 3 compilation tapes sent to you.
oh, is THAT how it works...
you also forgot to PRAY THAT YOU GET THE 3 TAPES SENT TO YOU.
i made 3 tapes, and sent them out RIGHT AWAY. i only got ONE back (well,
actually 2, but from the same person, b/c we worked out another trade).
so, i made my 3 tapes, but only got 1 in return. i was quite pissed...
and, thus, i would rather support Mike Bahr than rely on trading.
Dan
---+ +---
Dan Temmesfeld - mailto:dantemm@erinet.com
"Home of the Galactic Cowboys Pages"
http://www.cedarville.edu/student/s1133627/gcowboys.htm
Summer 1997 Update site:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/1853/
---+ +---
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:38:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Save me a seat on the bandwagon...
Message-ID: <v01520d01b015cd8ac163@[207.90.117.185]>
>I remember shortly after he started creating CD's, he was talking
>about reducing the prices to $22 or something like that, and even-
>tually lower. I wonder what ever happened to that plan?
um... he DID lower the prices...
>I'm especially disappointed to hear that he's profiting off of
>stuff that he gets for free.
he pays for some of it... read some of his posts...
Dan
---+ +---
Dan Temmesfeld - mailto:dantemm@erinet.com
"Home of the Galactic Cowboys Pages"
http://www.cedarville.edu/student/s1133627/gcowboys.htm
Summer 1997 Update site:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/1853/
---+ +---
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:49:46 -0700
From: Markus Stahl <stahl@primenet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: In Defense of Mr. bahr
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970812054946.00794230@mailhost.primenet.com>
Well normally I stay out of little tiffs that people have on the jam, but
this is definately one that I have to pose my opinion about!
Mike's bootlegs keep me sane in between actual DT releases. Especially
with FII being released a long time after Awake. The stuff on his cd's
gives me new stuff to listen to by my favorite band. And to reiterate what
other people have said, if you don't like it don't by them! And to the
person that said they saw bootlegs in their local shop for $18-19, why
don't you post a list of what this shop has to offer and you can go out and
purchase those cd's for jammer's that want them. I personally have NEVER
seen boots that cheap, and with the fall of boot's in Italy it's going to
be really hard to find certain bootlegs like LitS and DoE, so if people
want them and Mike can make copies on CD let him. Personally I would rather
spend the 20 bucks and have it on CD than do a tape trade to have it on
tape.
And another thing I don't see anyone else shelling out over two grand for
a computer system and another 900 for a CDR to make these disks. If you
don't like what he does why don't you buy the equipment and make the copies
for yourself, and while your at it make me a copy to :)
SO leave him alone, enmought posts have been posted to the jam on the
subject and the bottom line is that if you want his CD's buy them and if
you don't then don't buy them. So eveyone stop bitching, I'm getting sick
of reading an entire jam on this issue(nothing aginst Mr. Bahr).
-mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:54:55 +0100
From: gra@provida.no
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Butt-leg ?
Message-ID: <412564F1.00457D1D.00@oslo1.provida.no>
Me adding my opinion to the Mike Bahr thread:
At first I thought "Yeah, this Mike dude is making some fast bucks
on naive DT fans. Let's kick his ass !!". But every person must be
able to think for themselves. That is - if you don't like it, don't buy it.
On the "making money with no effort" topic I can only say: That's
cool ! As the goverment beeing the rolemodel, I see nothing wrong
with a fast buck. Just check this out:
- Lets say my monthly inome is apx $3000
- The goverment charges me a stunning 40% income tax. ($1200)
plus an additional 7% pension tax. On my GROSS INCOME! ($210)
- The rent on my appartment is $550 per month, the goverment
charges 23% from this. ($126,5)
- I use about $450 on food, party and R&R. Again 23% to Norway Inc.
($103,5)
- Train fare is $130 a month (Goverment owned company) ($130)
- The rest of the money goes into my share portfolio. (I'm making money
here!)
Ok, with an income of $3000, the goverment grabs $1770. That's 59% tax !!
Here I am, working 8 hrs a day and someone else gets 59% of my income !
No wonder people want to make a fast buck. I do! :)
There are some Waco, TX tendencies on this list. Some of you guys will
defend anything certain people say or do. This is how religious weirdo's
recruit their members .....
The moral of the story: Mike, keep up the good/bad work !
PS!
Fuck the goverment ! (Hey, maybe I'll start a band and call it Nirvana
????)
-.profile [Probably moving to Monte Carlo]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:00:22 -0400
From: "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Bahr
Message-ID: <199708121301.JAA28220@zork.tiac.net>
This is my last post, I just want to make sure everybody understands my
side.
> > Uhm, yeah. So what's your excuse for how illegal it is? You take an
already
>
> I don't care if it's illegal or not. Why should I?
Thanks for proving my point. You're making money off of DT and you don't
care if it's illegal or not, that's all I've been trying to say.
> No, I'll never copy Awake. that's Counterfeiting. Not bootlegging.
> There's not only a huge moral difference, but a huge consequential
> difference there.
Let's see, if you were to make counterfeits of Awake that would be bad
because you'd be making money on DT's material and they would be receiving
none. But it's ok for you to bootleg because you're making money on DT's
material and they're receiving none. Am I missing something?
> Everyone does that in some way, you see. If I was a toy salesman,
> I would be making money off the hard work of the folks at Kenner who make
> a Star Wars toy line that people gobble up like beetles, regardless of
the
> selling price. I guess it's all about finding a hot item and a fair
price.
That is complete bullshit because in that example you're not stealing the
toys and selling them yourself. I'm sick of this argument. What it comes
down to is that you are making money on CDs which DT receives nothing from.
That's the bottom line.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:31:22 -0400
From: psull@ici.net (Pat Sullivan)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: In for the field goal attempt...Mike Bahr!
Message-ID: <199708121328.JAA12254@kira.ici.net>
>> Subjct: Matt Bahr
>
> Argh! It's Mike! Mike!!! The same as our favourite drummer. :)
Well, if you'd shown up to pick up Mr. Metzger's ticket for you at the El N
Gee's Fix show, you'd get the joke. :) (He was going through the crowd
looking for you, and after awhile he started using the name of the then-N.E.
Pats placekicker. Rather humorous at the time, but we were cold. :))
-----
_____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________________
E-mail: psull@ici.net
IRC: DDictator
WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html
NP: Drain STH - "Horror Wrestling"
______________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:29:23 -0400
From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: The Bahr Debate ....
Message-ID: <199708121329.JAA22254@wicked.stigmata.org>
ends now. If you have any questions, complaints, gripes, praise, etc
for Mike's project, please mail durnik@indirect.com, NOT the Jam.
If you have a problem withe Mike's posting CD info to the Jam, please
tell me, but I doubt enough people will mail me to make me want to
stop him. The posts are infrequent enough (and have been oked by me)
that I doubt I will take any actions against Mike. But, if enough
people do mail me, I will make some sort of decision. I think enough
people find this info useful and since so much of the jam these days
is purely useless, I don't see a problem with it. (And if you think
these posts are bad, you should have seen the ones 2 years ago, they
were half a jam long ;)
Skadz
Ytsejam Moderator
skadz@dreamt.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:30:32 -0400
From: Brian Wherry <bwherry@mathworks.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Bahr -- the point!
Message-ID: <33F06578.630F@mathworks.com>
Mike Bahr _is_ a nice guy. I'm sure Melissa is pleasant as well. I bet
his CDs sound really wonderful. Clearly Mike and Melissa are having a
hell of time trying to scrape by on their limited income, even with the
magic tournaments. And no, Mike Bahr doesn't rip people off. He gives
you exactly what you pay for.
The point of my first post was that I didn't want to see the Bahr
family's troubles and advertisements for his CD projects on the jam.
Sure, I think it sucks that Mike Bahr profits more, per CD, from one of
his Dream Theater CD projects than a single member of Dream Theater
does, per CD, from an actual Dream Theater album. I just threw that in.
And once again, without fail, in ytsejam #2855, Mike posted about how
much this costs and how much that costs and how he's borrowing a
computer to increase productivity and how he may have to sell some magic
cards to get it and how he may be able to lower his prices more next
year.........
Put it on the web page. Send email to your customers. Have a nice day.
Brian
bwherry@bu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:41:15 -0400
From: "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil>
To: "'ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: My Take On Mike Bahr...
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=AMSC%l=AMSC_NTAS-970812134115Z-4374@amsc_ntas.amsc.belvoir.army.mil>
Possible explanations for Mike Bahr...
1. "Mike Bahr" does not actually exist. All of you that have met him
were actually duped by the vicious Italian bootlegging consortium that
uses "Mike Bahr" as a front for their unsavory operation. They continue
to operate because they have compromising video of KJL, MP, JM, two
hookers, a drag queen, a dog, five pounds of Cool Whip, a firehose, and
two gerbils. The band permits "Mike Bahr's" actions because the scandal
would be too great.
2. The reason he runs a CD business out of his house, with his customers
never seeing him, is because he is in the middle of a sex change
operation. Hence the sudden appearance of "Melissa" Bahr - did you
really think we wouldn't catch on? My personal feeling is that he is
doing this so that he and D-Man can continue their relationship without
raising eyebrows...
(You knew I had to get that in somewhere!)
3. "Mike Bahr" is actually John Petrucci, and is attempting to throw off
the other band members while he makes an additional buck from the
music...
4. Mike Bahr and Brian Cox have actually concocted this whole thing as a
way of generating interest in the upcoming 34 CD set "Dream Theater -
The Completely Illegal Bootleg Collection" - subtitled "but it's okay,
the band members know I'm doing this". Orders will be taken next week
for this special set - at a low, low, price of $3,745.00 - after which
they will both move to the Bahamas and laugh hysterically on a daily
basis.
5. All of these posts are being generated by the impostor, who REALLY
has no life.
-----------------This is the end of the joke, for those of you with no
sense of humor----------------------
(Notice it's not ten, Skadz?)
My comments -
A. My, my - what venom between former friends. Who broke who's dolly?
B. Wow, there seem to be many closet Bahr haters on the 'jam.
C. The band knows about these runs of 500 - which aren't big enough to
worry about anyway, as they're not "official" releases, SO WHY IS
EVERYBODY SO WORRIED ABOUT IT? Good god, there weren't this many digests
over YNM! While I admire some of you for having the guts to make public
statements, and while I occasionally get annoyed over Mike's self -
righteousness (no, I have no idea how to spell that word!), not only is
the metaphorical horse dead, it's turned into petroleum products by now!
Sheesh...
"Brian and Mike - go to your corners and come out swinging!"
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:16:03 +0200
From: "D. Schoen" <denis.schoen@tip.nl>
To: "Ytse Jam Mailing list" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: STRANGER THAN FICTION >>>><<<<SUBCONCIOUS
Message-ID: <m0wyHM6-000F0xC@helium.tip.nl>
>>>>>Go ahead if you want to... I'm fair game if anyone else is, after
all. I booted the Italian boots, but then again, as evidenced by boots
like Stranger than Fiction and Uncovered, they've booted mine as well.
<<<<<<<<
Hello fellow jammers. I must disagree with MB on only one thing concerning
this latest boot-topic.
the tracks on STF are not taken from the SUB-boot !!!
There is more "talking and noises" at the beginning and ending on the
tracks which are on STF than on the SUB-boot.
On the other hand the versions of the the same tracks on SUB sounds far
more better than on STF !!!
The tracks on STF were taken from a low generation tape and not taken from
the SUB boot.
On all the other points you mentioned I think you're right. This discussion
must be closed. If you don't like boots: avoid them !!!
If you're into them: go for the prism-releases !
Denis/THEATER OF DREAMS Holland
ps: Mike, since it is an Mission:Impossible to reach you by private e-mail
(all my mails keep bouncing back), i have to do it on the jam.
one little Q; Have allready sended out my copies of PT and TDOW ? I really
would like to review them in the upcoming TOD.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:31:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian Cox <lerxst@metronet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: reply to bahr
Message-ID: <199708121431.AA06707@metronet.com>
mike, i cloned those 4 shows for you because you said you wanted to
hear them. i know that you were kicking around the possibility of
doing a cd with them and at that point i didnt care.
since that time i have gotten to know a lot of bands more personally
and alot of them allow me to tape their shows that other people are not
allowed to tape. i have changed my stance on bootlegging. i no longer
buy bootleg cd's or sell tapes or do 2:1 trades or anything like that.
the music should be the only thing that matters and if that means
sacrificing your own money and time to spread it for free then that is
what it means. in the last year or so of my absence from the list i have
made friends with many deadhead and phish tapers and they have changed my
way of looking at life. (besides also changing the way i look at music,
phish is the most incredible band i have ever seen). anyway, i no longer
want to be associated with any of this bootlegging for profit business
and that is why i am pissed that you didnt ask me about this or even
ask for my input at all. i havent gone anywhere. my email address is the
same as it was the last time you emailed me. my phone number hasnt
changed. a simple net search finds my web page...
i am not out to ruin your life, i never threatened to tell anyone about you
personally. i would just like the relevant people to know that i did not
condone this cd and i am not profiting off of it (nor do i want to!), since
they are already aware that i am the one that taped the material. i dont
want it to jeopardize my future taping of dream theater shows since all
of the members know me by face.
yes, i used to accept free copies of your cd's. i really didnt care what
you did until now when it might affect me.
the part that really gets me is that you are profiting off tapes that i
gave you for free. most of that cd is comprised of those shows. why
do you feel the need to charge so much for cd's that you can get pressed
for less than a dollar each?
my cdr offer still stands. i will send my DATs to anyone that wants to
copy them onto CDR. i dont personally have one, but a CDR tape tree sounds
like a good idea.
i know your intentions at the beginning of all this were good. but i am
worried about your motives now...
go ahead and ship the rest of the cd's, i dont want people that ordered them
to suffer. all i want is at least for you to tell your "inside source"
that i am not a part of this and i am not profiting from this.
<><><><><><><><><> Brian V. Cox (lerxst@metronet.com) <><><><><><><><><>
<>rush\dreamtheater\kingcrimson\phish\moe.\toriamos\echolyn\queensryche>
"The man or woman who is insensitive to the spell of this performance
really isn't fit to live in civilized society for it is one of
the wonders of the world" -Frank Granville Barker
<><><><><><><><><>DAT Taper/Trader - Email me for list<><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><><><> http://www.metronet.com/~lerxst <><><><><><><><><><>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:53:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scarred1@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2848
Message-ID: <970812105243_143084858@emout05.mail.aol.com>
In einer eMail vom 11.08.97 22:10:44 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
<< Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 22:11:35 PDT
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: one more thing...
Message-ID: <Chameleon.970811221315.omeraron@>
i forgat one thing:
WHERE THE HELL I CAN GET A YTSEJAM SHIRT!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
HOW COME EVERYBODY HAVE IT?!??!?!?!?!
HOW COME I DON'T HAVE IT??!?!?!
(focus in that question)
please tell me,
yours truely
omer >>
A very good afternoon ytsejammers,
omer seems to have just the same question as I have. Here in Germany you can
buy T- Shirts from almost any band in the world. From POP to TECHNO (urgh!)
to what I call real music, which means a drummer, a gittarist, someone on the
4- string and most of all someone who deserves the name 'singer' in the first
place. As you know, there are so many so- called singers out there,
espescially when you take a look at the dancefloor section, which has a huge
crowd of fans here in Europe and especially here in Germany.I think that
besides any kind of favourite music, which is always a subjective thing
(which is okay), there is something what is called skill or talent, and most
of them actually don't have the slightest clue what that is. But I'm drifting
away...
Anywayz, my problem is that I'm desperately seeking for a DT and/ or
ytsejammers t- shirt. I cannot find it anywhere. The only one I have is a
selfmade which has the I&W Cover on it. Hey, about a dozen of people already
asked me if that's just a kind of a fantasy pic or a band. I answered them:
BOTH!
So, to summarize this: Can anybody help me finding some shirt? But please in
a good quality. I don't wanna have a tent after 3 times of washing ;-)
carpe diem
Oliver aka scared1
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2856
**************************
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