YTSEJAM Digest 2855
Today's Topics:
1) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2852
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2844
by "Blondie Smurf" <cyradis1@hotmail.com>
3) LURK MODE OFF
by Dave <buster@ee.net>
4) Another Stone For The Landslide
by "S. Borzilleri" <magellan@u.washington.edu>
5) Fates Warning/Savatage/Bootlegs in General
by "Blondie Smurf" <cyradis1@hotmail.com>
6) Whatever...
by djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com
7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2854
by durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:56:21 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2852
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970812055621.00e761f4@pop.enteract.com>
>Brian Wherry: Read Brian Kirk's post of you didn't understand mine. Math
>does not cut it in understanding music. You can't just add up the
>"fractions" and get anything meaningful. I can write an essay on the
>subject if you want ...
Ummm... Oh... uh.... No. Brian was correct in what he said. Music
is ENTIRELY mathematical. If you can't comprehend that or see the
equations, and understand the relationships between the fractions and the
frequencies (Time Sig. and BPM) that's fine, but don't go into teaching
theory yet...
>But what's this avbout CD-R? Since when have his CDs been that? All mine
>are pressed CDs except for the PT beta I got at the con. Has there been a
>change?
Just recently, bro. Not necessarily a permanent thing, but the PT I
have is CDR, and it's numbered.
>From: Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com>
>Subject: just a few things
>
> Mike, does not do this for a living he does work for Equinox and I
>also work. He does these Cd's for a hobby and a little extra money. If
>neither one of us worked we would not be able to continue with the CD's
>and we would have to move back home with our parents. As it is we are
>moving into a house-rental with two other people to cover the costs of
>living.
Before we all start singing Stars and Stripes forever, stop and
understand that even if this is a myth, it exists because Mike presented it
to the jam as such. It's not just one or two people who thought that Mike
was making the vast majority of his income off those cds. If that's the
case, then he could very well be relaxing most of the day. If I had a job
where I could just screw around and check in every hour or so, I'd be a
happy man. Maybe I'll run for President.
> I get many of E-mails everyday from many of you people on the
>jam...some about the CD'sand some about the video's. Some of you people
>e-mail me everyday wanting to know where your cd is, and I do not get
>mad and be rude to you, I always reply with the truth in a very
>friendly way.
And if I ever got fucking word one about you all getting mad at
people asking you questions about your delivery, I'd PERSONALLY walk the
cops to your door! You guys have NO BUSINESS complaining if you get
messages (massages?) about "Where's my cd that I ordered 6 months ago?". If
you were more punctual, you wouldn't have to deal with it. But you're not,
so you'd better be polite and apologize when Jammin' Joe orders a cd and
gets worried about the fact that he's waited 3 months for his cd.
>The only ones I really have to answer are the one's about
>the video's, but I take time out to check on your CD's or make a
>correction(address, worng CD, etc.). I do not mind letting you people know
>about your CD's as long as you are cool to me.
You seem to be much faster with the orders than your husband (and do
understand that I had no problem waiting a decade for my Precious Things cd,
but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it could have been sent
earlier.), but as you're selling a mail order service, you owe your
consumers updates when they send you requests. It's not hard to ignore an
insulting message and just reply with the facts. Don't act like that's
doing anyone a favor, because that's part of the business.
>they were doing. Would you? DOW cd has been out for a long time, so i am
>sure Brian new all about it.
I found that to be awfully hokey too.
>From: Melissa Bahr <emerald@goodnet.com>
>> I remember shortly after he started creating CD's, he was talking about
>> reducing the prices to $22 or something like that, and eventually lower. I
>> wonder what ever happened to that plan? I guess when he started really
>
> The prices have been lowered to $20 if you would check the
>website.
Wow.. if this argument had been raised 15 hours earlier, you
wouldn't have been able to comment. Doesn't give you that much of a leg to
stand on. But it is the kind of thing that can slip the mind, and I do give
Mike a lot of credit (and you as well, if you played into that decision) for
dropping the prices. His discs now cost less than the imports I usually buy
(non boot stuff).
> He did not buy a new truck...he just paid off the loan which was
>not that much as to how he bought the truck from his parents. So if you do
>not know the true facts then SHUT UP!
How about "You've been mislead by falsehoods. Let me clarify, so
you know what really happened" Are there False Facts? You and Mike are
starting to get pissy, just like me. Welcome to my world. :)
>From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <skadberg@wicked.stigmata.org>
>To: ytsejam@ax.com
>Subject: Didn't go all the way back but ....
Oh MAN would I love to see Skadz's reaction if he's truly back to
READING the jam!
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:12:01 PDT
From: "Blondie Smurf" <cyradis1@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2844
Message-ID: <199708120812.BAA13193@f45.hotmail.com>
>Eternity-X sampler:
>Don't you people ever get any samplers ? They're all like
>that, the songs always cut off.It's not just them.
>One more stupid reason not to get to know their music.
>Childish really.
No, not really. If you've never heard the band before, how is a little
snippit of a song going to do anything? If all samplers are like that,
it's kind a of a stupid concept. Give me a demo any day.
>I read an arctile with Celine Dion, and, she says she tries
>not to talk, when she doesn't have to. She does this to save her voice
>from getting hurt. I just wanted to know if this is a good thing to do
>or not. I'm no singer, but, I'm interested in knowing if this is any
>good for your voice or just bull feathers(trying to keep the jam clean
>:).
Talking is harder on your voice than singing for some reason. When I had
laryngitis (or however you spell it) my teacher wanted me to walk around
speaking like Alvin from Alvin and the Chipmunks until I got better. But
not talking is kind of bs-sy, seeing as if you sang everything.. you'd
be a walking opera.. Well, aside from that, eventually it'd get on
peoples nerves. So no, I wouldn't think it would be a good idea. (You
could probably learn sign languague though.)
Alison
|\_/|
|@ @|
+--------------vvvV--<o o>--Vvvv-----------------+
| V"V |
| Alison Clark | cyradis1@hotmail.com |
+------------------------------------------------+
| http://members.aol.com/bardtirla/lair.html |
+------------------------------------------------+
| "Death is the first dance eternal. Deceit is |
| the second without end. Love is the dance of |
| eternity..." --John Petrucci |
+------------------------------------------------+
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:28:00 -0400
From: Dave <buster@ee.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: LURK MODE OFF
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970812042800.00691d30@ee.net>
Holy shit I don't think I've ever seen this place so twisted.
WHOA! Back up a minute!
I too will post in defense of Mike, even though I had a less
than picture perfect experience with an order once.
First of all, if I was Mike I would say "here's what I have
for sale, it's $xx. if you don't like the price, dont f*&%n buy it"
But Mike does not appear to be that kind of guy.
The guy works his ass off to make the stuff, and it's more
valuable than shit in the stores, so he deserves every penny
of the $25 he *used to* charge for them. Try spending your days
and nights worrying about everyones order, when to finish what,
what's getting packed and going where, and tell me you would
keep doing it for more than a month.
For those of you that have a problem with his prices or the way
he makes his living, go ahead and abstain from buying it, but don't
fuck it up for the rest of us here. Will you be satisfied if you
finally somehow manage to stop his service and denie the whole rest
of the jam the ability to get these recordings?? Are you that fucking
selfish?? Does it really matter that much to you?? Why do some people
feel the need to piss on this parade? Is it shear boredom? No-one is
being forced to buy these CD's. Some of us just want to. There are enough
entities in this country that want to take simple pleasures away from
us all without having it invade this space we call Ytsejam.
I can't believe Mike had to actually post his cost of operations on
here! Like he should have to justify it to anyone!!! Does anyone go into
a music store and demand a fucking breakdown of why they can justify
charging $xx for a CD??? No! A business can't run without making a profit,
and if Mike can't make a profit then it's bye bye CD's. Come on, its a real
simple fucking formula here, it costs him money and time to make the CD's,
he offers the service for us to CHOOSE if we want to use it, and he makes
enough money to keep the operation running and make a modest living.
If you don't believe in that, then you're in the wrong fucking country.
The issue of legality??? GIVE ME A BREAK!!! With all of the REAL crime
in this country, POLITICIANS robbing us blind, SCAMS taking peoples
money and giving NOTHING in return, RICH people using OUR tax dollars
to build entertainment venues that will make THEM more money, someone is
going to bust Mike's balls for offering us a real PRODUCT with the bands
approval for a measly $20????????????? WHAT THE FUCK??
I'm not here to tell you that Mike's service is perfect, I know from
experience that it's not. **BUT** there is no
reason why this man should have to explain his cost of operation or have
to defend his *OBVIOUSLY* fair prices in this place. Call up EastWest or
Electra or Atlantic or WHOEVER and say "make me a custom Dream Theater
CD with live recordings from several shows, then mass produce just for
their Internet fan base at $20 a pop." First they'll laugh, then they'll
tell you to piss off, then they'll wait ANOTHER 4 years before they even
think about recording anything.
*Lastly, to the people who think his prices are unfair or that he should
have to explain his cost to us: Go by all the equipment to make CD's,
learn how to RUN the equipment, find a source for all your recordings,
invest in all of the suppplies, setup a method for people to order mass
quantities of your CD's, spend all your time to document/burn/ship each
order,
then try to pay for it all, survive, and still make it worth your damn
while at all by charging less than a measly $20-$25.*
Fortunately there are still enough of us to keep Mike from getting
discouraged, and thanks to his service AND the Ytsejam I have DT
collectors CD's (even autographed) which makes it all worth a whole
hell of a lot more than $25...it's priceless to me. Stop trashing this
place and bring something positive to it for a change, and you might
get something meaningful out of it too.
buster
http://users1.ee.net/buster
http://www.dhpc.com/ryche
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "S. Borzilleri" <magellan@u.washington.edu>
To: "Falling Into Ringling Bros." <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Another Stone For The Landslide
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96a.970812015909.15596S-100000@dante06.u.washington.edu>
Prologue: You know, I really had no idea that DT's management was going to
say anything to Mike Bahr when I asked them if they had ordered Tapestry
yet. But they did a good job of convincing me that I wouldn't get anything
back if I sent Mike a check.
Well I just read the last ten 'jams, starting with Brian Wherry's seething
invective leveled against Mike Bahr, stopping along the way to gaze in
wide-eyed wonder at the resurfacing of Brian Cox, and ending with a good
head-scratching reading over all the differing points of view. Not to
mention the entrance of Melissa Bahr. (Hi Melissa!) So far I think James
LaBrie said it best when he said "What is this, some kind of fucking
circus?"
Trying my hardest NOT to use any Star Wars references, there is an obvious
rebellion lingering on this list. So far it consists of Brian Wherry, Adam
Cook, Lars Hellsten, and Brian Cox. Assorted others are raising their
eyebrows in mild suspicion. Let me say that I almost leaped out of my seat
and screamed "HALLELUJAH!!" when I read Brian Wherry's post, but at the
same time I'm not about to attempt to cripple Mike Bahr's operations.
It's kind of hard for me NOT to comment on the current shenanigans and
accusations, but if I just spewed out what I'm thinking I might as well
unsubscribe. I know Mike Bahr can handle any amount of criticism, he deals
with too many people on a daily basis over too many communicative mediums
not to have incredible people-skills, not to mention the self-respect to
confidently get his work done and keep the machine going. Plus he expertly
fields questions, accolades, and criticisms all in stride. He's like water
in that respect.
(except that you can't bottle himBWAAAHAHAHAHA)
Unfortunately Mike Bahr has a large following of gladiators (supporters)
who would promptly invite me to leave the list, regardless of Bahr's own
reply which would inevitably be understanding and level-toned, with
strange touches of humor in-between the parrying... Just like everything
else he's ever posted on this list since it started in 1993. :) At the
moment, the majority of the people defending Mike Bahr have just as many
facts screwed up as the attackers. Listen to Melissa people, and keep in
mind that I'm no genius as you read this.
I've been waiting a long time for something like what Brian Wherry posted
to be posted here. I think it needed to be said. I understand Wherry's
disgust regarding Bahr's usage of "other people's music" because I own one
of Wherry's demos and I'm really impressed by his talents. I have
difficulty coherently expressing the amount of rage and disrespect I have
for people who's entire job consists of digitally altering a photograph,
and they get paid ten times what a photographer does. In fact if you ask
me about it in real life I might strangle you uncontrollably. So that
particular statement from Wherry really struck a chord in me. I think it
was f# minor. (I mean f-SHARP minor.) But this does not mean I hate Mike
Bahr. (The entire bootleg issue has tried in vain for years to concern me,
and to no avail.)
What little time I spent talking to Mike Bahr way back at Ytsecon II, he
seemed like a very positive person. I wondered after talking to him why he
wasn't running his own company/ies. Why was he making crappy little cds
when he had the business-sense to manage a corporation? He was very sharp,
and in my opinion could have made an excellent mediator/negotiator between
David Duke and Malcolm X. ;) But aside from his championing of his
surroundings, I could also imagine him becoming depressed enough to kill
himself. I'll admit that from what little experience I have talking to him
about what he does, Mike Bahr pushes himself WAY to hard for what it gets
him.
"Yeah, he should stop wasting his time with us and start swindling lawyers
and politicians!! Where the BIG BUCKS are!!"
Sorry, a voice just shouted that in my mind. Must have been from the Tang.
So. It was hard drawing a bead on exactly why Bahr did what he did,
keeping in mind this was back when Subconscious was the jewel in Bahr's
crown. :) All I could think was "he really must like Dream Theater, he
really must like spreading music around, I wonder how much music he has?"
Etcetera.
As for Brian Cox, I think what he said was very appropriate to the present
discussion. His bandana was strapped on the evenings of Malibu and Birch
Hill, yes he did in fact record those shows. But that's all I know, and I
wasn't exactly crying from his hostile tone when I read his post. At the
moment I'm not sure which of them to believe in that somewhat personal
argument (Cox? Bahr?) because they've both done some very questionable
things in the past.
But seriously. Fucking idiot or not, it doesn't seem too intelligent a
move to me for Person A to challenge Person B's business ethics when
Person A himself has trading debts to clear up and a lot of unsatisfied
people to answer to. As someone who has also met Brian Cox (does anyone
really CARE how LONG anyone's been on this list?) and having offered him a
video copy of Petrucci playing at the NAMM '94 show doing three
instrumentals that have yet to be released (and one which Petrucci himself
denied ever playing at a clinic many months later) in exchange for a copy
of the Birch Hill show, I got kind of annoyed when he kept my tapes
without sending me anything. Brian Cox's venom will help the cause, but I
feel he has nowhere near the clout necessary to sway anyone who's actually
dealt with him in real life.
Epilogue: Kudos to Brian Wherry, Adam Cook, and anyone else willing to
post obviously volatile things on an obviously public mailing list. Were I
less established, I'd love a good blaze. But while I would have very
little to lose by criticizing Mike Bahr, I would also have very little
(i.e. nothing) to gain. Besides, I need to save all the bitterness-energy
that I have in me right now for glaring and sneering at police officers,
who I fear and despise much more than Mike Bahr.
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:20:11 PDT
From: "Blondie Smurf" <cyradis1@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Fates Warning/Savatage/Bootlegs in General
Message-ID: <19970812092013.27109.qmail@hotmail.com>
I got my copy of APSoG a few days ago, and it was pretty good. Although
the alarm clock startled me--I almost went and checked the oven timer
when it went off.
I also got a copy of Savatage's Dead Winter Dead. WOW!!! I haven't been
this blown away by an album since Images and Words. Especially the last
two tracks, Christmas Eve and Not What You See... I love this CD... I
thoght the cello part was beautiful.
Since everyone else in the jam has added to the Bahr Bootleg thread I'll
throw in my opinion into the mosh pit of opinions we have going here:
Bootleg--Honestly, I don't see what's so wrong about a Bootleg.
Considering that if I go to a mainstream concert here in St. Louis at
Riverport, crappy lawn seats run anywhere from $19-29, while real seats
cost upwards of $50 most of the time, I don't see what's so wrong about
a bootleg. Why spend all that money on a concert and not come away with
something unusual that you wouldn't normally have, aside from the
experience of seeing a band live, which, if you're on the lawn seats,
isn't exactly a dream either?
As for Bahr bootlegs. Someone asked why people buy them. Here's why I
bought the three I have:
--Mike Bahr will not rip me off. Seeing as most of my bootleg stuff
goes on online, I'd much rather deal with someone that I know won't rip
me off.
--I know that if I get a Bahr CD, I'm getting good sound quality. I
like good sound quality. Why get a crappy recording of something made in
someone's pocket when I can get a much better sounding one on a cd?
--Rare tracks. While Bahr is not the "spout" of all things rare, he's
pretty damn close to it. The Back Pain jam on Subconcious kicks ass, and
I'd never have heard it if I hadn't gotten a copy of Subconcious.
--They look professional. So sue me, I like it.
--Final Point and then I'll shut up: If Mike Bahr wants to make $4 off
a CD he sends me, fine. If he's going to go to the trouble to make the
rare stuff avalibe on a quality CD, he can charge an extra $4 for the
trouble of creating the CD, recording it, dragging his butt up to the
post office to mail it to me, and the stress that can happen when
something goes wrong--why shouldn't he make a bit of money off it?
::::dons the abestos proof suit and awaits the end of the thing::::
Alison
|\_/|
|@ @|
+--------------vvvV--<o o>--Vvvv-----------------+
| V"V |
| Alison Clark | cyradis1@hotmail.com |
+------------------------------------------------+
| http://members.aol.com/bardtirla/lair.html |
+------------------------------------------------+
| "Death is the first dance eternal. Deceit is |
| the second without end. Love is the dance of |
| eternity..." --John Petrucci |
+------------------------------------------------+
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 10:23:36 GMT
From: djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Whatever...
Message-ID: <9708128713.AA871349192@smtpgate.walker.com>
Hi,
Lurked for a while - thought I'd say hello.
I've been at work for three hours or so now and I have had YNM stuck
in my head all morning - and I love it. I think it's a cracking song
(I know this ground has been covered but we have no other DTC at the
moment - roll on FII release).
A word on the Mike Bahr debate that is raging at the moment. I
haven't bought anything from him, and it's unlikely that I ever will
(I'm not a "must have rare things" type of person) but I guess the
main word here is CHOICE (sorry - didn't mean to shout). If you don't
like what he does, don't encourage him by buying his stuff, and if
he's making money - good luck to him - it's not like he's peddling
child pornography!.
That was a speech on behalf of the "Bored as fuck at work" party...
Cheers,
Dave (a UK Jammer).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:10:18 -0700 (MST)
From: durnik <durnik@goodnet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2854
Message-ID: <199708121110.EAA20188@goodnet.com>
Before, I start, there's a NEW UPDATE on my page. That URL again is
http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik for those who don't know it. I've updated
all prices to $20/$40 scale, and added something calle the Advanced Dream
Theater Bootleg Guide. I'm wanting critiques on that, and if you have
info I can add to it, so much the better. All current releases and such
are detailed on the page.
> This whole Bahr thing... ARGH! What is this? 2 or 3 years later, and NOW
> all you people want to speak up?! And your whole argument is based on the
That kind of had me wondering too. Nobody seemed to care about any
of this, back in late 1994 when I started this whole thing.
> Yeah, Wherry's a newbie! (I still think it may have been the
> imposter posting as Wherry)
Most disturbing of all to me personally is that I've met Brian
Wherry and he was a really cool dude. Plus we seemed to get along just
great. Heck I wonder if it _was_ the impostor that posted as him.
> If Mike Bahr sells replicas of the other boots out there for less
> than the other boots cost you, then I'm gonna buy him a beer (in about 1.2
> years). That's the kind of thing I like to see happening.
That's the idea! :)
> > And that drive costed how much? And the computer it's attached to
> >costed how much? And it's costing me how much to stay home and do this all
> Whatever you paid on the drive, I could have gotten you a better
> deal. :)
Cool! I need another. The Teac 4r/4w I wound up getting was $600.
Let me know how much you sell a similar product at and I'll buy it from
you instead... I support Jammers' businesses as well. :) Seriously! :) I'm
getting access to another computer (borrowed) for a few months and it sure
would kick ass for me to double my productivity. I'll have to sell a few
old Magic cards, but sometimes we all have to make sacrifices. :)
> Then be silent and mute my little foolish one. The Precious Things
> label on my cd is peeling off in its case as we speak, and is feeling
Which is why I gave up on the label idea, and knocked the cost of
them off the price with the rest of the stuff. :) The labels looked great,
and they were just a really wholesome thing to do, but in practice, they
*just* *didn't* *work*. So until I can afford that CDR printer, I'm stuck
issuing rather bland-looking media.
> underpriviledged next to its predecessors. But Bahr will tell you, it's
> actually cheaper to make the real shit than it is to do the CDRs he's been
> doing. It's a matter of finding a joint that comes from Madagascar and
> doesn't know who Rush, DT, and KX are!
Exactly. I'm looking into several possible places now. I've
already talked to around three dozen, and they all told me to fuck off. I
guess that's what I get for taking the local plant for granted... and then
watching it close. It's a little inconvenient to have to cough up a ton of
money to the print shops in advance for each print run, but the speed they
get done at and the lack of defects make it the superior choice. I'll say
right now, that if I can make any future boot at a CD plant, the price
will drop again (likely to $15). I've gotten that much more efficient
since I started.
> So you don't mind making money off someone else's hard work? It's
Everyone does that in some way, you see. If I was a toy salesman,
I would be making money off the hard work of the folks at Kenner who make
a Star Wars toy line that people gobble up like beetles, regardless of the
selling price. I guess it's all about finding a hot item and a fair price.
I just hope nobody thinks I price-gouge. I'm not so vain to think that if
my prices were too high, people wouldn't find an alternative. And
therefore I strive to keep them fair but good enough to make the business
viable. Technically it's not even viable: a business needs to profit at
50% or better to be so, generally. I only run 20-30% profit on my stuff.
> know it's not a big issue for some, but if you were asked by the band,
> nicely, without threats, to stop making your cds, would you? I struggle to
> believe that you would.
Sure I would. There are other bands out there. James LaBrie told
me not to make Tapestry, and so I cancelled it, that day. It was a shame
because that would easily have been my best, most popular, best sounding,
and most profitable (by volume) release ever. But my relationship with the
band is far too fragile and I take NOTHING for granted with them. In fact
I'm more than a little relieved that they don't squash me outright. So if
they say the party's over, the party's over. It'll suck, but I've got to
go along with their wishes.
> You still sold your Tori boots, instead of sending the money back.
I really didn't have a choice on that one... I had already paid
for production, so I pretty much _had_ to create products.
> "They can take our money, but they can never take OUR BOOTLEGS!!!"
> Geez, Mel, let's rally the troops up against someone to support our
> arguments. Are you trying to make him shut up by trying to get the jammers
> to flame him to death? Why not just take a minute or two before you ost,
No, I just wanted it to be known what had happened if I were to
drop off the face of the earth tomorrow. If I ever did get busted, you
don't think they'd let me make "one last post" on the net, do you? :) I
gotta make sure people know the situation.
> service, & thats exactly what it is...I'd hate to see a couple of people ruin
> a RELIABLE source of music for everyone Hey, if Mike makes a couple bucks BFD
> welcome to America...my .02
A post well-deserving of an End-Of-Jam. :)
- Mike Bahr - durnik@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2855
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