YTSEJAM Digest 2871
Today's Topics:
1) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2870
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2870
by Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
3) ACOS transcription update
by "Brandon Vaughn" <bvaughn@snowhill.com>
4) Am I alone?
by nga@software-ag.de (Neil Gallop)
5) Mr. Bitfickle
by gra@provida.no
6) Re: Am I alone?
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
7) FYI Rush remasters
by "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
8) CD length and limitations
by WarrenDW@aol.com
9) cd burner x4
by Kappa <kappa_rock@iol.it>
10) India
by Raivo Hool <raitz@guvatrak.ee>
11) Mike Keneally
by Raivo Hool <raitz@guvatrak.ee>
12) Smokin Good Rope ......
by Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com>
13) RE:Fish and bits...
by "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil>
14) CD junk
by "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
15) Re: CD junk
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@linux.ime.usp.br>
16) Re: Bitrate and samplerate discusison
by Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:50:49 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2870
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970815055049.00aba888@pop.enteract.com>
>From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
>Subject: The jam is histerical :)
>Brian Cocks wrote:
I really hope Brian kicks your ass around for this baby shit.
>>can someone clue me in to what exactly is the dispute here?
>
> Yeah, they...er...WE want you to shut up. No one gives a fuck anymore.
>I'm still buying Bahr CDs. If you come up with some good shit, like people
>say you have, e-mail me and let's talk :)
Hardly. I don't want to be included in your "We". I know several
others who also don't want any part of it.
>More Cocks:
>>i didnt feel comfortable with the stuff being put out on cd.
>
> I didn't feel comfortable while puking up your sister's curlies, but
>that's a different story :)
You're being a dick. You make ME want to open up a can of whup ass
on you for that bullshit. Only a truly ignorant little fuck would start
some bullshit like that. This isn't your high school playground, Vince. If
you're gonna say shit like that, why don't you go find someone of your
mentality and have a nice discussion. I expect a lot more from my friends
than that.
And Lars, I'd think twice before arguing audio principles with someone who
works for Dolby Labs.
BTW, if my posts are coming out poorly aligned, I apologize. I'm working on it.
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:53:37 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2870
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970815055337.00ab80e4@pop.enteract.com>
>From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
>Subject: The jam is histerical :)
>Brian Cocks wrote:
I really hope Brian kicks your ass around for this baby shit.
>>can someone clue me in to what exactly is the dispute here?
>
> Yeah, they...er...WE want you to shut up. No one gives a fuck anymore.
>I'm still buying Bahr CDs. If you come up with some good shit, like people
>say you have, e-mail me and let's talk :)
Hardly. I don't want to be included in your "We". I know several
others who also don't want any part of it.
>More Cocks:
>>i didnt feel comfortable with the stuff being put out on cd.
>
> I didn't feel comfortable while puking up your sister's curlies, but
>that's a different story :)
You're being a dick. You make ME want to open up a can of whup ass
on you for that bullshit. Only a truly ignorant little fuck would start
some bullshit like that. This isn't your high school playground, Vince. If
you're gonna say shit like that, why don't you go find someone of your
mentality and have a nice discussion. I expect a lot more from my friends
than that.
And Lars, I'd think twice before arguing audio principles with someone who
works for Dolby Labs.
BTW, if my posts are coming out poorly aligned, I apologize. I'm working on it.
Chris W. Ptacek Musician and Listener
A.K.A Madsman, on IRC
"Can we search for inspiration -- those ideas that just come
from 'nowhere'? They don't surface when you're tHiNKinG.
They just come. What we CAN do is make fertile the ground
on which idea seeds fall."
- Michael Hedges
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:21:06 -0500
From: "Brandon Vaughn" <bvaughn@snowhill.com>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: ACOS transcription update
Message-ID: <199708150627.BAA27138@frost.snowhill.com>
Well,
I've been working my butt off getting this music input. I am about halfway
done (behind schedule). I really should be finished ... had all the way
through Carpe Diem input and then the file became corrupted (too big for
the program I'm using). Thus all my hard work down the drain. I had to
start all over again. This time, I am saving the transcription in 7 parts
like the song and will probably combine the ASCII version into one big
file.
I didn't really feel like starting at the beginning again, so I started at
the end. I have currently completed the following:
--> Another World 13:01
--> The Inevitable Summer 16:59
--> The Crimson Sunset 20:12
I am halfway through The Darkest of Winters. It will probably take me
about 2 days to re-input the first 3 sections. I am still shooting for
Monday for having a rough draft finished.
I forget where I left off on the bass part -- I think the beginning of
Carpe Diem.
Because of this setback, I have had no time to work on the MIDI. I haven't
checked Mark Peter's progress recently. I hope he is still working on it.
It could be a new date of around Sept. 23 for the MIDI.
Please keep in mind that these transcriptions will initially be rough
drafts. Corrections are to be expected. When any of you receive these,
please _don't_ put them on a web page immediately. Wait until Sept. 23
when the corrections and revisions will have been made.
For those interested in this transcription, I have three questions:
1) This transcription will be for a 7-string. I wan't to revise it for a
6-string as well (cause that is all I have). What would the majority of
you like . . . an alternate tuning to get the low B sound . . . or all the
low stuff transposed an octave. Please let me know your preference. My
vote is the transposing an octave. But I'm easily swayed by a majority.
2) Would any of you like me to attempt to notate the note durations in the
ASCII format (quarter notes, triplets, etc.)?
3) Any who are interested in checking the transcription for errors
(including the parts already done), _please_ let me know. I know a few
have emailed me mentioning that you were busy and could check the parts I
wasn't sure about. That is great. But I also need checkers for the whole
thing. Be sure to specify whether you would like for me to wait to send
the entire transcription, or send the parts as I finish them. You may wish
to just check one of the 7 sections.
Please keep in mind that I am very interested in what you consider an error
in the transcription. Some may be blatant errors that I will change
immediately. Others may be debatable. In that case, I may ask for a few
extra people to concentrate on that section, and see what the majority
think of it. I suppose I will be making the final judgment call.
More later!
\\||//
~~..'~
( \ ) Brandon Vaughn
\ c/
__\/__ "The Mad Tabber"
/ \
_< . _ \ bvaughn@snowhill.com
\ `\ \ -' / \ \ ,,,_ vaughn_b@popmail.firn.edu
>|""O[|||||nn[:::<
/_,--- ._\ '''''~
~ | |
| | |
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 09:31:56 +0200
From: nga@software-ag.de (Neil Gallop)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Cc: nga@server3.software-ag.de
Subject: Am I alone?
Message-ID: <9708150731.AA00302@sundoc13.software-ag.de>
Hi all
am I the only person who will be very glad when the current Fates Warning tour
is over? How many posts have there been telling us how great this tour is meant
to have been? How come so few people are going to the shows? I'd rather read
reviews of the Rush shows... (And before anybody asks, yes, I have seen Fates
Warning live, and they bored me).
stay safe and happy listening
Neil Gallop
(nga@software-ag.de)
Currently playing: Rammstein - Herzeleid
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:01:11 +0100
From: gra@provida.no
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Mr. Bitfickle
Message-ID: <412564F4.002F1513.00@oslo1.provida.no>
Lars H. wrote:
(BTW, I know you're wrong because if there were any truth to what you said,
all CD's would be recorded at 8 KHz or lower, because very few musical
instruments have a higher range than that - the 4th octave above middle-C
is something like 4000 KHz...)
Helloooooo, since when did all instruments produce perfect SINE waves ??
If you play a guitar, with distortion, and you hit an A2, the sound
produced is
NOT a clean SINE curve. It's a bunch of other frequencies as well. On a
guitar
there are one kind of harmony freqs, on a piano there's another set of
harm.
frequencies. This makes the piano sound like a piano, a guitar sound like
a guitar and so on. Since some of the frequencies produced is double,
tripple, quadruple and-even-more-duple, this can make harmony frequencies
way over (many harm. freq. goes beyond 23KHz) the basic tone you play on
your
instrument.
Becuase the freq. limit on CD players is 22.05 KHz, some audiophreaks claim
they can hear distorted instruments. This is due to the fact that some
instruments
produces a complex sound, with harm. freqs. over the 23K limit on CDs, thus
making
a distorted sound because of the 'cutting' of freqs. when you sample to CD.
Studios try to get around this problem by using a higher SR (48KHz and
above)
and a higher bit res. (20 Bits+) during the mastering. And then when
copying the
master to a CD-Master, they use a black box to convert the SR / BR in a
certain
way, so the quality on the CD is enhanced.
I'm not native english speaker, so my technical terms on this topic kindda
sucks .
-.profile
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:23:07 -0700
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Am I alone?
Message-ID: <199708150823.BAA02823@gms.gmsnet.com>
On the Eve of Destruction, Neil Gallop said:
>
>to have been? How come so few people are going to the shows? I'd rather read
>reviews of the Rush shows... (And before anybody asks, yes, I have seen Fates
>Warning live, and they bored me).
Now, that's boring, Rush tours all the time... and plenty of people have
seen them... what's so interesting about that? Plus, they aren't even
very prog anymore...
It's a shame they bored you, maybe you weren't watching really hard... heheh
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 03:59:48 -0700 From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com> To: "'DT'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: FYI Rush remasters Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=kbhq%l=KBHQ-970815105948Z-39603@ms.Kallback.com>
are on sale at Tower for $7.99
I wonder whatever happened to John Rutsey?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: WarrenDW@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: CD length and limitations Message-ID: <970815073506_751383612@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Mark Metzger's analysis of how to increase the available music on the CD was excellent advice to the band...but there is an easier way to get more music on the CD....have them DOUBLE the tempo of *each* song...PRESTO...each song gets done in half the time and there is room for Metropolis, and all the bonus songs that we can only now get by grabbing our ankles and ordering the Japanese CD. Why didn't you guys think of this? Hell there would even be room for an interactive video of the band...we could pretend to give the guys haircuts and even dress them up...I better stop now. Think about it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:40:41 +0000 From: Kappa <kappa_rock@iol.it> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: cd burner x4 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970815124041.0080a5a0@popmail.iol.it>
>Also, a 4x burner will not decrease the sound quality of an audio CD >produced. Remember, CD burners were made originally for burning computer >data, which, unlike audio data, needs to have 100% accuracy. You can >overlook a small glitch in audio data and not even notice the difference, >but an error in your hard drive backup and things no longer work. Now, >early 4x burners mayu be more prone to errors, and thus result in more bad >copies that have to be thrown away, but the good ones will sound exactly >the same as the original. It's a digital copy, after all.
No sorry, that's not right. Many times they fail to understand that they are "printing" an error. That's the question. If they print in a bad way the "pit" but they didn't understand (for the high velocity) the error, they continue to burn the cd, and that's exactly what they do. And the single error didn't stop the cd. The problem is when they make too much errors in the "zone" (well I don't know how to call)... and they didn't recognize these errors. When a normal cdplayer will read the cd, it will stop reading due to error... Many times when you burn a cd, the cdburner gaves messages of error, but if you continue you will get you cd perfect (with ininfluent errors of course) Sorry for my "primitive" english... <grin> bye K
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check the best italian videobootlegs on my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/6506/bootleg.htm email to:kappa@deathsdoor.com Just mixed with two cameras: ANGRA + MANOWAR June 97 and FATES WARNING June 97 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:59:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: Raivo Hool <raitz@guvatrak.ee> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: India Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815155829.19160A-100000@lahmaat.guvatrak.ee>
> and finally.....India (the country) turns 50 years old tomorrow, > celebrating a great half-century free of those damn brits (Hi Graham,
I bet Kim Thayil of former Soundgarden will drink as if there's no tomorrow... :-)
Raitz
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:22:48 +0300 (EET DST) From: Raivo Hool <raitz@guvatrak.ee> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Mike Keneally Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970815162101.19200A-100000@lahmaat.guvatrak.ee>
Ernie wrote:
> on 'Attitude Song' right? Fuuuuuuck. And I've heard he plays the piano > part from 'Angel Food' too? What would Steve do w/o that guy.... i have
You mean, live? The piano stuff on the album was sequenced. All in all it sounds crazy. :-)
Raitz
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:24:01 -0400 From: Mark Metzger <mmetzger@bostech.com> To: "'(ytsejam)'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Smokin Good Rope ...... Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=bostech%l=CARRIER-970815132401Z-9372@carrier.btrd.bostontechnology.com>
>> Dude, what are you smoking? ALL CDs are encoded using 16 bits. CD >> players can't handle anything else.
I dont know whether to laugh or cry. NOBODY on the jam seems to have a sense of humor any more (well, except for Bafu who even wears *nasty* yellow colored shirts in public and then has the audacity to comment on JP's past selection of attire......). Wasn't it obvious that my post was an attempt at levity ??
On a more technical issue, for what it matters, the reason that the sampling rate on a CD is 44.1K is that you need to sample at a rate 2X the highest frequency that you wish to capture. Thus, to get the roughly 20K which is normally acknowledged as the upper bound for required musical frequency, you need twice 20K. Hmmmm, is this another ridiculous attempt at levity or is it the truth ?? Or, is it Memorex ??
Smokin Rope. Signed, The Audio Dope. Formally educated (former) audio engineer. Crane School of Music North Tundra of Nowhere, NY
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:38:09 -0400 From: "Blevins, Mike" <BlevinsM@amsc.Belvoir.Army.Mil> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: RE:Fish and bits... Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=AMSC%l=AMSC_NTAS-970815133809Z-746@amsc_ntas.amsc.belvoir.army.mil>
Ian wrote...
>> I've never heard of a CD encoded at anything other than 16-bit, >> 44.1Khz. I >> think thew original post about increasing the length of a CD by using >> 13-bit encoding was a JOKE. > >well..theres 20bit mastering.. Steve Vai's fire garden and Yanni's >(hehe) in the mirror both use 20 bit mastering.. as for Khz on those i >dont relaly know..
If I am not mistaken, that means that the mastering process (different from cd production) was conducted at 20 bit resolution, then transferred to a 16 bit CD master. The CD audio standard remains at 16, as far as I know.
I read an interesting article somewhere about digital recording where it was mentioned that in order to get the kind of resolution/sampling rate that you get from a good analog tape, the sample rate would have to be > 90khz, and it would need to be at 130 + bits. Is this true? If it is, it would explain why I can always tell when something was digitally recorded...
Of course, this being the 'jam, if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll know about it...
(and I'm sure Mike Bahr would agree...) :)
Korg boy wrote...
>>CAN U SOME ONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DOES CARPE DIEM mean? > >Now you know all about the carpe diem. Next Question?
You know, that's the best description of 'jammers that I've yet heard...
"Seize the fish, I heard him say don't let the bastard get away..."
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:36:08 -0400 From: "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: CD junk Message-ID: <199708151438.KAA12496@zork.tiac.net>
> well..theres 20bit mastering.. Steve Vai's fire garden and Yanni's > (hehe) in the mirror both use 20 bit mastering.. as for Khz on those i > dont relaly know..
This just means that the source tape is 20 bit. A standard compact disc is always 16 bit and that's the nature of the beast, so that 20bit mastering crap doesn't really mean much. Besides, if the CD were mastered at 20 bits it wouldn't be able to fit the 74 minutes of music that is Fire Garden.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:52:13 -0300 (EST) From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@linux.ime.usp.br> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: CD junk Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970815114922.24583C-100000@turing.ime.usp.br>
On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Adam Cook wrote:
> This just means that the source tape is 20 bit. A standard compact disc is > always 16 bit and that's the nature of the beast, so that 20bit mastering > crap doesn't really mean much. Besides, if the CD were mastered at 20 bits > it wouldn't be able to fit the 74 minutes of music that is Fire Garden.
Well, taking a higher sample size helps one to have higher dynamic range and less noise. So, they can produce CDs with less noise, after converting down to 16 bits and doing other sound processing such as dynamic band compression (and other things that I don't even know).
> Adam
[]s, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:28:29 +0300 From: Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Bitrate and samplerate discusison Message-ID: <33F4759D.1ADA@Netvision.net.il>
> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:22:23 -0400 > From: Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca> > To: ytsejam@ax.com > Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970814222223.00704924@mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca> > > >(often called resolution) is your y resolution. Increasing the bits allows > >for smoother curves since you have a creater number of values for the > >aplitude of the wave, and increasing the rate allows for higer pitched > >sounds to be heard, since pitch is directly related to frequency, and you > >need at least 2 samples per wave period to be able to hear the sound. So, > >at 44.1 Khz, the highest frequency encoded is in the 22Khz range, and so on. > > I'm not an audio engineer, but I do have a basic knowledge of physics and > how sound is digitally sampled, and I know for a fact that this is > completely wrong. For one thing, no human can hear sounds at 44 KHz - the > range of human hearing is roughly from about 20 Hz to 20 KHz, so that > disproves the above right away. If what you said had any truth to it, all > CD's would be recorded at 8 KHz or lower, because very few musical > instruments have a higher range than that - the 4th octave above middle-C > is something like 4000 KHz. Secondly, look at the term "SAMPLING RATE", and > think about what that means. The 44.1 KHz you're talking about means that > 44,100 samples are taken per second. So it's the "x-axis" in your example. > > If I'm not mistaken (I'm only assuming here), the bit sampling is > responsible for dynamic resolution. In other words, it's the y-axis of the > graph. The graph would look the same whether you record in 8-bit, 16-bit, > or whatever, but recording at a higher bitrate would make changes in > dynamics smoother. You're right that both the bitrate and sampling rate > affect the resolution of the recording, but you've got them reversed. > > (BTW, I know you're wrong because if there were any truth to what you said, > all CD's would be recorded at 8 KHz or lower, because very few musical > instruments have a higher range than that - the 4th octave above middle-C > is something like 4000 KHz...) >
Well, accurding to the PC books I've read, it's something like that:
The sampling rate is indeed how much samples are played every second. 44100 Hz means 44,100 samples per second.
A formula for calculation of a sample's size is: (Number-of-channels) * ((number-of-bits) / 8) This means that a stereo 16-bit sample will take 4 bytes. the resolution (number of bits) is between -127 to +127 (8 bits) and this is the value of each sample. When using 16 bits, the resolution ranges between -32767 to +32767. this affects the sound quality drasticly. The audible Hz frequency is actually affcted by the resolution and not by the sampling rate. If anyone has an EQ option on his wave editing program, you'll notice that high treble (16 Khz) and low bass (16 hz or something) are only possible when editing a 16-bit file.
That the end of our lecture for today.
Class dismissed.
BTW:
Most of the CD-players today are 1 bit. I think this means they can handle any bitrate. problem is, that 13-bit resolution is not practical, 'cos it will sound like an audio casette and not like a CD.....
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2871 **************************
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