YTSEJAM Digest 3327
Today's Topics:
1) 3 things and a reply
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3325
by Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
3) Re: 20 Minute songs
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
4) Re: Fates Warning Album
by Rick Booth <hellion@shell.busprod.com>
5) Fates bashing and FII praises.
by Jonathan Case <jcase@NEWTON.METR.uoknor.edu>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3325
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
7) Rare DT Question?
by PERCGR8 <PERCGR8@aol.com>
8) Tull, 40-60 minute songs for god's sake, epic songs
by "Neal Brown" <nealus@hotmail.com>
9) Re: Rare DT Question?
by Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
10) Being rather unimpressed with FW
by Seth Hatlelid <srhatlel@artsci.wustl.edu>
11) to reiterate
by "jason braswell" <funkbreath@hotmail.com>
12) Re: to reiterate
by Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
13) RARE ASS SHEEIT
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
14) Rare DT stuff/Tolkien
by NGA <nga@software-ag.de>
15) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3320
by "D. Schoen" <denis.schoen@tip.nl>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:49:02 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: 3 things and a reply
Message-ID: <19971206164336.AAA28498@sni.pananet.com>
1) On JLMB, right before 'Let's not forget my legacy', James does this
really cool sounding 'ah'...hadnt noticed that before:)
2) I finally figured out what the beginning of TAMP reminded me of... the
theme to 'Mad About You'. heehee
3) Wasnt HY released, or about to be released, already? Shouldnt everybody
be calling radio stations asking for it? *hint, hint*
reply:
> But everything here seems to be common only in latin countries.
> Am I wrong here? This is the impression I have.
>
Well, if you include European countries with latin-derived languages as
well (France, Spain, Italy, etc..) then yes, it seems thats
right...Although some of those countries give 2 or 3 kisses..i swear
there's one where its 5! That can get quite tiresome, i think one gets the
message across quite well;)
Ernesto
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:02:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3325
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.971206213259.20028A-100000@napier.uwaterloo.ca>
Well, now that I just wrote my Psych final (wooooo!!! thank god THAT
nightmare is over... NEVER, EVER, *EVER* take a Psychology course if you
can help it! Especially if you're a CS major!) and have some time to
kill, it's back out of lurk mode:
> I think you will become increasingly alone on this opinion, because after
> more and more listens, Fates' pure talent and musical writing abilities
> will become more apparent. IMHO, APSoG is a complete masterpiece, and
> should not be underestimated as an astounding CD.
He is certainly not alone. I agree completely. In fact, I actually
thought APSoG was pretty good the first time I listened to it. There
are still a couple of parts that I think are pretty good, but the more I
listen to it, the more I realize that the song really shouldn't have been
(and didn't need to be) any longer than 10 minutes. It seems a lot of
prog fans are just obsessed with long songs. That people were comparing
it to I&W when it came out is criminal (even if it *is* only an opinion).
I still prefer all of the other Fates albums I have (Parallels, PS, even
Inside Out) - although those albums aren't aging that well with me
either - but I'll admit APSoG is better than some of their earlier stuff.
Probably the reason he is "increasingly alone" is that most of the people
who don't like APSoG aren't just going to suddenly come out of the
woodwork and say "yeah, APSoG sucks" to get the shit flamed out of them!
I don't mind, because I'm an asshole and immune to flames by now anyway.
But in the past when this came up, I know a few other people agreed.
I must admit, Mark Zonder is pretty damn good though... and so is Ray,
but he has no idea of what a good vocal melody sounds like (even Chuckie
D. was a better vocalist IMHO, because although he has a crappy voice,
he wrote pretty good vocal melodies, eg. Metropolis). Anyway, it's too
bad they can't put their talent to use in more meaningful compositions.
Oh, and I like Kevin Moore's work on the album too. So it's not like
there's nothing there I don't like. It's just that the song is WAY too
drawn out, and there are too many discontinuities (including a few parts
that just SUCK), and that completely ruins it for me.
> instrumental section finishing up the song. I think "At Fates' Hands" is
> the "metropolis" of Fates Warning.....
<gak...uuughghgh...choke...coughcough...>
That may be so, but to mention FW and "Metropolis" in the same sentence...
the only way in which it's even close to Metropolis IMHO is that Kevin
Moore plays on it.
> Then, I heard about this APSoG CD, consisting of one 53 minute song.
> "MOST COOL" I thought. They're going more progressive and unique!
Unique? Wasn't everyone just talking about long songs being a prog
cliche? :)
> what a work of art APSoG really is. Anyone else agree with me here?
NO! :)
> But onto the music -- I feel bad for almost any DT opening band, only b/c
> the fans are expecting some kick-ass performances and are anxious to get
> going with it. "Big Wreck" played for about an hour -- way too long, IMHO.
Speaking of Big Wreck, they're getting pretty popular up here (Canada).
I was channel surfing, and saw their video on Much Music... their video
was at #6 this week (from #9 last week, so I imagine it'll reach #1) on
the top 30 countdown. I don't get it.
On one hand, I'm glad that the music that's becoming popular these days
is better than it's been for most of the 90's (Big Wreck are alright, I
guess) ... but it REALLY pisses me off that a band like Big Wreck, who
couldn't get a better gig than opening for DT, are suddenly becoming more
popular than DT, while DT are being completely ignored!
I also got a flyer from Sunrise Music in my mailbox, and they were
advertising a few pages (maybe 50-75 CD's) of the hottest new releases.
Big Wreck's album was on the front page of the flyer. But do you think
FII was mentioned anywhere? Guess that's one more music store to
boycott. Assholes.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:06:52 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: 20 Minute songs
Message-ID: <19971206170248.AAA28799@sni.pananet.com>
> Didnt Dweezil Zappa just release a 40-60 minute song with guest apprances
by some
> gun slingers?
> Mike
>
Its recorded, but hasnt been released as far as i know...If it has, i want
it NOW. I've been waiting for that for a long time.
Ern
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:14:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Rick Booth <hellion@shell.busprod.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Fates Warning Album
Message-ID: <199712070314.VAA02436@shell.busprod.com>
> Oh, so THAT's what it means.....makes sense...arrays??!? Hehehe damn
> computer programmers... ;)
>
> Since there has been significant FW content on the Jam lately, lemme ask
> the Fates-heads a question...I had Chasing Time for a while and I could
> barely stand it...there were a couple of tracks that didn't make me
> think of 80s hair metal, and I think Monument was one....anyway, what
> would the peanut gallery's recommendation be for the FW album I should
> get? (I get the feeling that hearing the compilation before a full album
> was a really bad idea...) P.S. I hate 80s hair metal ;)
I can feel for you. I wasted my money on Parallels and Pefect Symmetry:
I rarely listen to either and when I do it is always the latter... Then
I bought Inside Out. That is the album with Monument. It is excellent and
I liked it on my first listen. Mark Zonder's drums are phenomenal and
Alder's voice is much better. The production is slick--but so is the
music. It sounds more "Fresh" compared to PLLS and PS. In my opinion
this is their best album, but I have not heard NE, AWtG, NoB, or the
APSoG.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:31:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Jonathan Case <jcase@NEWTON.METR.uoknor.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Fates bashing and FII praises.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.971206211349.17169A-100000@newton>
YTSE jammers:
I know that we're all skewed toward our favorite band, DT, but it seems
like many of you are being blind sighted! How can all of you go on and
say that the production is great on FII?? I have to turn the treble way
up on the car stereo to companesate for the fogginess and lack of clarity
in the production.
Drums sound better? In some songs, they sound pretty good, like lines in
the sand. But they totally suck on Hell's Kitchen and Burning my soul.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE DRUM PLAYING WHATSOEVER. Portnoy still rules.
It's just that his sound quality is so diminished that it makes it
difficult to hear the fantastic things he's doing. One particular point
in the BMS intro, which totally PISSES ME OFF is when Mike comes in with
the china cymbals, then the double bass, then china, double bass, and
crash all at once. Crashed are on the downbeats and chinas are on the
upbeats. Once all three are going, after about a bar, the chinas sounds
totally fade into oblivion. Is it just my CD or is this part of the
engineering mishaps? I've never known certain CDs to be missing certain
parts.
Generally, the cymbal sounds are crappy on FII, compared to Awake and
IAW. Granted the double bass is very prevalent, and that's good, but I
can't hear all the awesome cymbal sounds, because there's little treble
on this CD as in previous CDs.
Further, on Hell's Kitchen, the fast drum fills that Mike plays before
the time change part when it goes into 5/8: You can barely hear them,
even though MIke is kicking ass on the drums. You can "detect" them, but
unless you're carefully listening to them, it's not noticeable at all.
Those and other similar parts irritate me about the FII production.
And I just don't know why the keys have to be so far in the background on
many parts. Like in Just let me breathe: The 2nd verse, those keys are
so damn cool and jazzy, but they're way in the background, instead of
more upfront.
So, if I were to rank production quality on DT CDs, it would go:
1) awake,
2) IAW,
3) ACoS,
4) FII,
5) WDADU
Further, my comments on ACoS: I hated the covers (why should DT do ANY
covers at all??? seems absurd to me cause their music is better than
anyone else's just about.) and liked ACoS first listen. However, I hate
that poppy, wimpy snare sound. It just doesn't blend right with a
7-string guitar.
Further, why does Derek have to use the dirty organ sound so much instead
of the nice clean sounds Kevin used primarily?
Now, FATES STUFF:
I guess you've all gotten used to heavier stuff, and don't want to listen
to the nuances of APSoG. I didn't think much of IAW at first. In fact,
it took me 6 months to start really liking it, and not stop listening to
it. Still, I didn't like Metropolis and Under a Glass Moon much. The
same with APSoG. You HAVE to listen to it and be a musician while
listening to it. And I'm not even a FATES fan. ALthough I'm considering
myself more of a FATES fan lately.....It's because FATES WARNING actually
comes within 700 miles of where I &^%& live now. DT didn't even come
CLOSE to Oklahoma City. What the fuck's wrong with Dallas??!!
Well, I guess I'll never see DT live. Fuck. I really wanted to see
scarred live.
-Jon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-Jonathan Case, graduate student Mailing Address:
-School of Meteorology: (405)-325-6561 942 Deonne Circle
-University of Oklahoma at Norman Norman, OK 73071
-Dept. Fax #: (405)-325-7689 (405)-364-7075
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Office: 1518 in Sarkey's Energy center; Norman, OK -73069-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: jcase@rossby.ou.edu || URL: http://rossby.ou.edu/~jcase
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:34:00 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3325
Message-ID: <19971206172831.AAA29237@sni.pananet.com>
> there's nothing there I don't like. It's just that the song is WAY too
> drawn out, and there are too many discontinuities
I think thats the key word..drawn out...ok, key wordS:) I like APSOG, but
i'd enjoy it so much more, it didnt meander so much. The beginning of part
VI is a good example...there's fat to be trimmed:)
Ok, i'll shut up now,
Ern
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:03:59 EST
From: PERCGR8 <PERCGR8@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Rare DT Question?
Message-ID: <eae159f1.348a2e41@aol.com>
I was in a the only bootleg store around here and i saw a WDADU vinyl going
for X amount of dollars. i would really appreciate you guys help in what it
should be worth and what price i could haggle down to or if i should just buy
it quietly, and not tell him he's getting ripped. Thanx
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 22:37:10 PST
From: "Neal Brown" <nealus@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Tull, 40-60 minute songs for god's sake, epic songs
Message-ID: <19971207063711.12436.qmail@hotmail.com>
>Hey, man! I LOVE Thick As A Brick! Don't knock it! If it weren't
>for Jethro Tull, I bet Derek Sherinian wouldn't be what he is today
>(based on the fact that he played on a Tull tribute album). It does
>the segue quite well, as does also A Passion Play, which uses an odd
>children's story set to music to bridge the two sides.
Really? What song was it DS played on? Brick is one tour de force, but
Passion Play is just noodling, IMHO. I can forgive a lot of thematic
development, but APP just goes on forever...and that stupid kid's story
is so annoying. It sounds completely thrown in there.
>Which brings me to another point: I believe that Dream Theater should
>do a concept album similar to the two aforementioned albums in that >it
would be one 40-60 minute song. Think of the possibilities! >Also, we
know they can do at least 23 or 25 minutes (ACOS and >Metropolis part
II, respectively) on the same theme. Why not just >complete the
circle? It would make a MUCH better ending to the album >than the cover
songs on ACOS, which seem out of place in my
>opinion. Tell me what you think.
Say WHAT?!? Do you have any IDEA how much time that takes?? Songs get
exponentially harder to write as they get longer. 5 is easy, 8 isn't
hard, 10's a bit of a challenge, 15's difficult, 20's downright
hard....but 40? 60?? I admit, if they could pull it off it'd be great
but jeez...just cuz Tull did one good one doesn't mean anything. You
can't just hold one note for the whole time ;). You have to unify the
whole thing somehow, otherwise it's just a whole bunch of songs thrown
together but the CD is only indexed as one track. That's like saying a
six hour movie is as easy to make as three two hour movies or something.
>JOHN MYUNG HAS FINALLY TURNED HIS AMP ON!!
Ain't it great? ;)
>> If 12 minute epic songs, based on classic literature, can be
>>considered prog, then I think it would be mandatory to include
>>Maiden in the prog genre. The Rime of the Anciet Mariner comes to
>>mind.
>Just because something is 10+ minute long and based on literature
>doesn't mean that it is prog <snip> A song being 10+ minute long >isn't
sufficient (it's not even necessary, IMO) for it to be >classified as
prog.
Bingo. Depends on the band, the song, etc. (Metallica's Call of Ktulu is
nine minutes and is based on HP Lovecraft.) Styx, to name, an obvious
example, is one of those bands that's a wannabe prog band. (Some of
their stuff is cool, but if I hear "Babe" one more time I'm gonna lose
my lunch.)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:02:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Rare DT Question?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971206230138.20044A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, PERCGR8 wrote:
>
> I was in a the only bootleg store around here and i saw a WDADU vinyl going
>for X amount of dollars. i would really appreciate you guys help in what it
>should be worth and what price i could haggle down to or if i should just buy
>it quietly, and not tell him he's getting ripped. Thanx
>
Well, if it's so old as to be priced in Roman numerals, then I think 10
bucks is a great price for it (unless it's a 78, then you're in
trouble!). then again, maybe not... ^_^
(sorry, I felt I was being to quiet... thought I'd through something
in...)
--Matt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:29:12 -0600
From: Seth Hatlelid <srhatlel@artsci.wustl.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Being rather unimpressed with FW
Message-ID: <l03130300b0b00bb6657a@[128.252.105.105]>
I started out woth Inside Out for FW and was kinda dissapointed. The
music was OK, but the vocals just seemed half-assed. They didn't have any
power to them, like he wasn't using his chest to push the air and was
relying too much on his amplification. The vocal melodies also seemed to
have been chosen in poor taste. Try remembering them. It's like trying to
remember track 8 from LOAD, just can't bring it to mind. There are a couple
of good riffs and some moments of good playing, but the only real song on
the album is Monument. The rest are just sort of noodling around, similar
to much of QR's Promised Land. I don't play either very often.
I bought Apsog after all of the hype on the jam. The first thing that I
noticed is that the roles seemed to have reversed. The vocals are much
improved but the music seems rather lackluster and in some parts it just
seems trite and cliched. I have a friend who hates metal and she had never
hears apsog, but when I played it for her she could guess which parts were
coming next with about 60 percent accuracy. Try doing that with, oh say,
Cryptic Writings or Suffocating the Bloom. won't happen. I have had it
for a couple of months now, but it just doesn't seem to get much use. The
only reason that I'm keeping it is that it has Kevin Moore on it. I think
it would have been a better CD if Matheous had let KM write his own parts,
the writing is just kinda blah.
I saw FW open for DT. I had more fun watching the MISFITS. (if any of you
have ever seen the misfits, you'll know how to take this)
I'm not saying that FW is bad, I'm just saying that I don't really consider
them to be prog. From what I have heard they seem to be just slightly
better thatn your average hair band. There isn't a fates song that I have
heard that I couldn't play (bass) with ease.
I'm going to bed now,
Seth
Seth Hatlelid
srhatlel@artsci.wustl.edu
Check out my web page at http://artsci.wustl.edu/~srhatlel/index.html
"After the confession of sins and before the Act of Contrition, the
priest is supposed to ask, Do you sincerely resolve not to commit this sins
again? But Father McSwain's hurry-up version was more like "Commit these
sins again?-to which I could have sincerely answered yes." -Michael Ryan,
Secret Life
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:32:50 PST
From: "jason braswell" <funkbreath@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: to reiterate
Message-ID: <19971207083251.15146.qmail@hotmail.com>
I'm willing to listen a little while longer, but I still think that
in the end I'll agree with Mike; FW, at least on APSoG, just isn't
anything to throw a party over. I forget who, but someone mentioned the
complexity of the album? It may, of course, just be my poor taste, but
I didn't find anything on that album complex at all, and I have enough
music that I know is complex with which to make, IMHO, a reasonable
comparison. As far as I'm concerned, if the world suddenly expressed
musical greatness as physical metaphors, DT would be towering over FW
like Colossus of Rhodes at a dwarf support group.
jason
Insert favorite quote here ->
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:52:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: to reiterate
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971207005105.20044C-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, jason braswell wrote:
>
>
>musical greatness as physical metaphors, DT would be towering over FW
>like Colossus of Rhodes at a dwarf support group.
The group of dwarves that carved the collosus itself... ^_^
> jason
> Insert favorite quote here ->
"Excuse me sir, which way to the nearest DT mailing list?"
>
>
--Matt
NP: Fates Warning: "The Spectre Within" (God, I love John Arch ^_^)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:22:21 -0800
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: RARE ASS SHEEIT
Message-ID: <199712071022.CAA28395@gms.gmsnet.com>
Well, if you want to talk about rare ass DT stuff, including bootlegs that
aren't pressed on CD... There are some bastards out there hoarding
stuff!!
Give it up!
:)
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:44:43 +0100 From: NGA <nga@software-ag.de> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Rare DT stuff/Tolkien Message-ID: <01BD031E.A9087D50@pcnga.software-ag.de>
Hi all
well, I would say the rarest Dream Theater memorabilia would have to be Kevin Moore's testicles. The question is, who's got them?
On a more serious note, don't forget that Tolkien was first and foremost a well-respected scholar (positions including Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford University, 1925 - 1945). He originally started to write The Hobbit as a bedtime story for his children. He viewed both THe Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings as games rather than serious projects, even though the languages he made up for the various life forms that populate Middle Earth actually 'work'.
stay safe and happy listening Neil Gallop (nga@software-ag.de) (http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/2321) Currently playing: Atrocity - Werk 80
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:06:48 +0100 From: "D. Schoen" <denis.schoen@tip.nl> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3320 Message-ID: <01bd0319$5bd20c40$LocalHost@gjjhgjhg>
>Subject: RAREST DREAM THEATER PRODUCT >Message-ID: <80256564.0055C769.00@ThamesWater.Co.Uk> > > > >OK JAMMERS HERE'S A CHALLENGE, > >What is the rarest official and/or unofficial DT piece of merchandise or >record/cd
Official: the 3" Tears single that you could order (freely) with the Japanese version of ACOS (I heard rumours that even Mike Portnoy is searching for this gem) The Atomo Joe 7"-single with John Petrucci on it. Any pre-awake promo cd -single.
Unofficialy: Moonbubbles (2cd-japan) Dream In Progress (2cd-japan) Mission:Impossible (2cd-japan) Studio Demo 88-90 (1cd-japan) Majesty-Gates Of Babylon (1cd-japan)
Mechandise:WDADU-tour-shirts, Japanese Images & Words tourbooks.
That's all i can think of right now.
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3327 **************************
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