YTSEJAM Digest 3343
Today's Topics:
1) APSOG parts...
by Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu>
2) Metal Blade 1998
by "Matt Mommaerts" <mattymo@inxpress.net>
3) Re: Fates Warning...
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
4) Providence Show
by Paul Drapeau <drapeau@cs.uri.edu>
5) Fates "bashing", psych101, etc...
by "Lars Hellsten" <lars@shaw.wave.ca>
6) Is "Fates-basher" another synonym for Politically Incorrect?
by Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
7) A few things....
by Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
8) Mustaine and Metallica
by Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
9) Stupid FW arguments
by "Jason Birzer" <Longshot@pressroom.com>
10) Rogerio Brito's mails to the Jam
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
11) Atl. Ytse-page updated; attendees please read
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
12) Re: Mustaine and Metallica
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
13) Re: Fates Warning...
by "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu>
14) Billboard Pile of Crap/FW
by "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
15) The Forum, London...
by "David Ware"<djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com>
16) Various
by Robin Fernie <gecko@netcafe.co.za>
17) new album of DT in the 98 ?
by "Luca Benni (studente 150 ore)" <benni@dipmat.unipg.it>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:19:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: APSOG parts...
Message-ID: <199712100319.WAA18889@ruby.cs.brandeis.edu>
> listening to. It's not that it's terribly complex (except that
> acoustic part with the piano, THAT RULES), what makes it cool is the
> whole concept. Also, it's just a damn good song. To think that Jim
Kinda funny, am just listening to APSOG right now, and am listening to
this part as I read this post... any yes, I must say, this part
seriously kicks some ass... possibly the best part of the CD, to me,
(as in, IMO, something that can't be disputed by anyone, b/c its my
opinion)
--
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
| A daily dose of eMpTyV | Dream Theater |
| will flush you mind right down the drain | Falling Into Infinity |
| --- taken from: Just Let Me Breathe --- | In Stores NOW!! |
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
Michael Burstin: mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu
Oh my God, they've killed Kenny!! http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb/
Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email: http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:19:09 -0600
From: "Matt Mommaerts" <mattymo@inxpress.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Metal Blade 1998
Message-ID: <005501bd051a$6267cba0$3b0a10d0@mattymo.inxpress.net>
Got this from Metal Blade Records... TWO bands of note here...
also,new releases from:IMMOLATION-GRIP INC-GALACTIC COWBOYS-MASQUERADE-
DESTINY'S END-BLACKTHORN-KONKHRA-KING'S X-DARK FUNEURAL.......as well as a
few
surprises,,it's going to be a VERY METAL 1998!!
I guess King's X is on Metal Blade now... sorry if it's old news to you all,
but it's new to me... oh, and Masquerade's last Album kicked some major ass!
Matt
P.S. I'm hosting an all "Cover Song" 3 hour radio show this monday the
15th... if anyone has any cool ideas, please e-mail me privately...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:03:04 -0500
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Fates Warning...
Message-ID: <19971209185828.AAA6266@sni.pananet.com>
Thanks to all the ppl trying to explain what they see in FW. A lot of you
have said interesting things tht might make me see APSOG in a new light. I
think this line from Matt's post personally made me see it in a different
way:
> guess what? The alarm clock goes off (grin) "It so figures." The gray
of
> the music (all the restraint and moderation) conjures the perfect
> "watching the room lighten from the gray light of the dawn emerging
> through closed curtains" mood.
And also thanks for all of you saying its not that complex:) Although I'll
agree the piano/guitar part on part VIII is quite complex..its one of the
few parts that truly impressed me. And it's not that i can only enjoy
complex music, but that a lot of ppl seemed to be saying that it *is*
complex, and i was just missing it.
This is pretty much how it went with Marillion's 'Brave'...that bitch took
me a year to get into:) But I'm always willing to put effort into
appreciating a pice of music i'm not getting for some reasons. Especially
if its something a lot of people seem to like a lot. I'd like to know that
that'll eventualy help me grow as a musician.
BTW...who plays that groovy song with acoustic guitar that goes something
like "I dont need no excuse, You are the one to abuse"? I dig that tune,
but i have no idea who it is.
later,
Ern
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:34:30 -0500
From: Paul Drapeau <drapeau@cs.uri.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Providence Show
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971210003430.006aa83c@cs.uri.edu>
I was informed that The Strand in Providence had closed. The current Dream
Theater date 1/3/98 at The Strand seems to contradict this... can someone
give me some more information about this show?
Thanks,
-Paul
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Paul Drapeau "Close your eyes, |
| drapeau@cs.uri.edu Look into the dream, |
| http://www.cs.uri.edu/~drapeau/ Winds of change will |
| -=<Ask for my PGP public key>=- Winds of fortune bring ." |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:39:33 -0500
From: "Lars Hellsten" <lars@shaw.wave.ca>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Fates "bashing", psych101, etc...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971209144200.0068ffc0@mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca>
>about what advertising to avoid, but I *did* learn that stuff in my
>propaganda class. (btw, subliminal advertising=hoax).
>
>I bet lars just got stuck with a crappy teacher or something.
Possibly. But I think the reason I hated it had more to do with the fact
it was supposed to be a bird
course. It's easy to get a B with minimal to no studying, but to get an A,
I'd pretty much have had to
memorize the shit out of a huge textbook, which I'm just not capable of...
so I'll probably end up with a
mark slightly above the class average, but well below what I'm getting in
all my other courses.
I'll admit there WAS quite a bit of material I found informative (I dunno
if interesting is the right word, because I happen to find mathematical
proofs, etc. far more interesting), but it's not worth it IMHO if it
brings my average down by 5%! Plus the exam was 140 multiple choice
questions - not the way I typically
enjoy spending 7-10pm on a Saturday night! :)
Oh, regarding Big Wreck ... I don't mind 'em the way I hate most top 40
stuff. I also like U2, Savage Garden, etc. But it just doesn't seem fair
that a band touring in support of OFB would suddenly go top 40!
>and over again? Talented bands must progress... and both Dream
>Theater and Metallica fall into this category.
Err ... both Dream Theater and Metallica fall into the category of
"talented bands"?!? I'd better not say any more, I guess.
** Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> **
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:39:42 -0500
From: Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Is "Fates-basher" another synonym for Politically Incorrect?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971210003932.00683d04@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Jim Mathoes is much more laid back now..but that doesn't mean he can't play..
>clean out your ears and maybe you will hear the complexity of APSOG...but
like
>others have posted here..don't expect it to hit you over the head...it takes
>sometime to sink in...if you want music that you don't have to think about ..
Fuck you, dillhole. This is a DREAM THEATER list. If I want music I dont'
have to think about, why the hell would I be listening to DT??? Are you
saying DT is music "you don't have to think about"? If so, I suggest you
get your pathetic ass off this list RIGHT NOW! I don't mind people who
like FW (after all, I like some of their stuff too). But you
self-righteous people who only come out of the woodwork when there's an
opportunity for you to plug Fates, and then go apeshit when someone says
anything negative about them, these are the type that don't belong here. I
hope there aren't DT fans who hang out on other lists and do the same...
DT can write music in their sleep that gives me more to think about than
FW's music. APSoG is no more complex than Big Wreck's music, even. It's
just as well that DT *didn't* have Fates opening for them this tour. I
can't believe all the FW fans who're trying to pass APSoG off as "complex".
It's subtle, and it's not crappy music, but it sure as hell isn't complex,
it sure as hell isn't full of nuances, and it sure as hell isn't good
music! It's a shade (PI) between good and crappy.
To even mention APSoG in the same breath as masterpieces like LTL, AMBI,
ACOS, or LITS, you must be having serious delusions! BTW, I started out
this debate saying I liked some of FW's music, but just couldn't get into
APSoG... but since so many FW fans are idiots who decided to start calling
anyone who can't get into APSoG a "Fates-basher", I guess I *will* be a
"Fates-basher" from now on. You certainly aren't going to turn any people
ON to Fates by claiming that people who don't like APSoG aren't capable of
comprehending complex music.
I think the whole argument some of you FW fans are presenting of "it's full
of subtle complexities" is pretty lame to begin with. There have been
debates on the jam about all kinds of bands, from Metallica to Rush to
Shadow Gallery to No Doubt to Echolyn, where both people who like and
dislike the music have voiced their opinions, and NEVER have I heard silly
arguments from one side such as "oh, you just can't appreciate the subtle
complexities, you haven't given the music a chance, blah blah blah".
At least POINT OUT these "complexities" to back up your argument. I can
point out millions of incredibly complex passages in DT's music, but I
can't find very many on APSoG. Someone else mentioned Gestalt theory in
reference to DT, and on APSoG, unlike DT, the whole is *not* greater than
the sum of its parts (IMHO!). There are SEVERAL people on the list who've
failed to see any of these "complexities" you're referring to, and who
collectively have given the music many a chance. 98% of the music I listen
to is at least very close to DT's in terms of complexity, so I don't think
I'm "missing" the complexity on APSoG. I'm not implying good music has to
be complex, but I find that APSoG is neither complex OR good music.
(Again, IMHO...)
Besides, not everyone who likes DT has to like FW. People have different
taste in music, you realize. To suggest people "clean out their ears" if
they don't like FW is just immature. If you can't understand why several
people here don't like APSoG, then accept it and stop trying to shove it
down our throats. It's not like the "Fates-bashers" are being
unconstructive in their comments the way you are. I don't recall any
"Fates-bashers" resorting to personal insults (at least up until THIS
message!)...
Anyway, I think that's all I'll say on this for a while... back to
studying... (wow, this was amazingly civil, considering how much of an
asshole I normally become during exams!)
** Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> **
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:56:08 -0500
From: Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: A few things....
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971210005608.007ca430@cyberport.cyberportal.net>
First, I went to the music store today, and I was surprised, and happy to
see a special promotion for Big Wreck. I liked these guys in concert, and
I'm glad to see that a quality straight forward rock band is getting
promotion. They aren't DT, but they rock.
Second, to the guy that dissed me, well... I'm sorry that you had to waste
even MORE bandwidth defending yourself. I'm off my soapbox, I hope you are
off of yours. My suggestion, Stick to NDTC, because anytime you write
about DT, you seem to piss people off. This is the DT Online Fan Mail-list.
Third, I managed to pick up Rush's "A Show of Hands" Video at the Music
store, and it's cooler than the disk (which I love) Had to tell you about
it, cuz it's cool.
Fourth, I saw WWF Raw is War last night, It was pretty cool (for something
so fake) But I went for a cheap laugh : )
Fifth, a reminder to Trevor Hoyt, this Febuary "Thanks to Gravity" a NH
band's new album "Start" is being released. I managed to pick up a special
copy of it, and it's damn cool. Can't wait to see how it does in this
cruel musical world. Hell, the last person to make it big out of NH was
Adam Sandler.
Lata! J
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:00:51 -0500
From: Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Mustaine and Metallica
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971210010051.007ca100@cyberport.cyberportal.net>
> Burton wasn't even in the band when Dave was kicked out, it was still
> Ron McGovney, original bassist and founding member.
Again, I think you are wrong. I there were some demos of their
early songs with both Dave and Cliff. And, if I'm not mistaken, when Dave
was playing with James on "Cliff'em All", the band had already Cliff on
their line-up. I won't check this now because I still have some projects
due to Thursday, but this will be the first thing I'll check on Friday.
**If you would like to find out further information on this, if you are
lucky, you might be able to find Metallica's first EP (released in minimum
quantities before K'EA) It's called "No Life till Leather" I think. I
faintly remember trying to get this from another kid at school, but no
matter how high a dollar amount I offered, I was always rejected. lata, J
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:09:55 -0500
From: "Jason Birzer" <Longshot@pressroom.com>
To: "The Jam" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Stupid FW arguments
Message-ID: <199712100633.WAA16575@odin.ax.com>
> I appreciate Fates Warning for what it is, the collective effort
of
>a bunch of guys that are just doing what they love and writing songs that
I
>identify with. If you don't like them, fine, but why do you have to
justify
>the fact that you don't like something?
I think the original point of the argument was lost here. Someone was just
trying to understand why a lot of people go gaga over APSOG. It has been
going back and forth between the lovers and the haters on this list
justifying their position. My opinion is that it is a good album, but it
was nothing special to me. I don't see what the big deal is with FW, but
that is my opinion. I really have tried to like them because so many
people on this list rave about them but I just can't get into them. I
guess I'm missing out. :^)
The big thing to remember is that this is the DREAM THEATER list! That is
the only band we should all agree to liking. On any other band, we can
have whatever opinion that we want. Right now, things are getting stupid
on both sides. Let's just drop it or take it to private mail. This is the
last I have to say on the subject.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Birzer "One likes to believe in the freedom of music
"The Longshot" but glittering prizes and endless compromises
shatter the illusion of integrity."
longshot@pressroom.com Rush - The Spirit Of Radio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:34:28 -0700
From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Rogerio Brito's mails to the Jam
Message-ID: <348E37F4.23E@goodnet.com>
There is nothing wrong with seeing a lot of mail from Rogerio Brito
here on the Jam. At least he generally has something intelligent to
say!! :) Keep it up, Rogerio, no complaints here.
--
- Mike Bahr / Prism Records
- durnik @ goodnet . com
- http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:26:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Atl. Ytse-page updated; attendees please read
Message-ID: <199712100626.AA12108@crl.crl.com>
I've updated the Atlanta Ytse-gathering page at
www.crl.com/~vanyel/ytses.html. The page now includes semi-final
plans for both the DT and FW shows. If you're planning on attending
either show, please email me with your arrival time and general plans.
(This applies to people who are ALREADY listed, yes.) This is
especially important if you need crash-space locally, and also if
you're coming to the FW show (I'm trying to get an accurate count).
We have several out-of-staters joining us now, including Curtis
"StickS" Toler from Mississippi, Trey Allen (yes, THE Trey Allen of
YtseCon II fame) hopefully roadtripping up from Fla., a group coming
in from Richmond, VA, and Eric "according to the drinking of fifths"
Moegling aka "NuggetMan" driving up from Fla. :)
Directions to the venues, etc. are all included on the page.
--
+-- ...once the cloud that's raining ---+- Paul W. Cashman ---+
| over your head / disappears | vanyel@crl.com |
| the noise that you hear | www.crl.com/~vanyel |
+--is the crashing down of Hollow Years.... --+---- ICQ #4151223 -----+
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:40:22 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Mustaine and Metallica
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.971210043721.18162D-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Jeremy Kube wrote:
> If you would like to find out further information on this, if you are
> lucky, you might be able to find Metallica's first EP (released in minimum
> quantities before K'EA) It's called "No Life till Leather" I think. I
> faintly remember trying to get this from another kid at school, but no
> matter how high a dollar amount I offered, I was always rejected.
Hi, Jeremy.
Well, in fact, I have "No Life Till Leather" on CD, along with a
lot of other tunes. It has all the 30 minutes of it. But it (the liners)
doesn't say if the bassist was Cliff or not. You can check the setlist to
this CD on <http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html>. Follow the link
called "Covering'em 1".
BTW, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who likes
Metallica.
> lata, J
[]s, Roger...
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito
Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!"
Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html
"Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters"
James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 01:54:10 -0600
From: "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu>
To: ernie@pananet.com, ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Fates Warning...
Message-ID: <348e4aa10c99002@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>
Responding to the message of Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:11:24 -0800 (PST)
from ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack):
> BTW...who plays that groovy song with acoustic guitar that goes something
> like "I dont need no excuse, You are the one to abuse"? I dig that tune,
> but i have no idea who it is.
Days of the New. I think the name of the song is "Touch, Peel and Stand."
-Brian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:32:47 -0800
From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
To: "'DT'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Billboard Pile of Crap/FW
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=kbhq%l=KBHQ-971210083247Z-32554@ms.Kallback.com>
Did anyone watch the Billboard awards show? It sucked pretty bad.
I wasn't really paying attention to it, and I heard a band playing and
I thought "That's a little hard for Garth Brooks" then I went over to
the TV and it was really that M band playing.
I think the best thing was this gospel/rap thing and I don't even
like gospel or rap.
BTW, there's a new FW mailing list. I bet they wish they had half
the posts about FW on that list that we do here.
Not worth bending over to pick up these two cents,
Trevor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:32:42 -0800
From: "David Ware"<djw_at_neon@smtpgate.walker.com>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: The Forum, London...
Message-ID: <9712108817.AA881743122@smtpgate.walker.com>
Hi,
Well for some reason I haven't been getting Jams for ages - I think
my company's Email system is crap, I don't even know if the Jam will
get this or not but here it is anyway...
I was at the Forum gig in London last night and all I can say is
AAAAAHHHGGGGGG DT WERE FUCKING AMAZING!!!!. Yes they did HY, yes they
did Nightmare Cinema, yes they said they'd be back to do more gigs in
the UK, yes my neck aches...
Happy,
Dave (a UK Jammer).
........Any UK Jammers there last night?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:40:49
From: Robin Fernie <gecko@netcafe.co.za>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Various
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.19971210104049.1c0f3f34@netcafe.co.za>
>>Thank GOD that someone agrees with me on this. I thought I was the only
>>person in the United States who thought that Bjork is why animals eat their
>>young.
>>All her problems can be solved with a 40lb. sledgehammer in the base of the
>>skull.
I'll chip in half for the hammer.
>"Triology of Knowledge" by Believer.
Awesome. I never knew Christians could actually escape from the church
music mentality and expand into a prog. feel like this. When the album was
released there weere rumours going round that the next album would be in a
very similar type vein (the whole " Symphonic Prog Thrash Metal" vibe) Can
anyone give me info about what happened to the band since then? Anyone want
to send some mp3's of the new Tourniquet?
>Dear Sir or Madam
>My mother has requested this information about
>Dream Theater and I have not.
Why the hell do you think his *mother* is requesting info on DT? Weird family!
That *other* band vs DT thread
Im' sort of confused about why anyone would want to compare the two.
They're from totally different era's and styles. Sure they both play what
most would call metal, but the it pretty much ends there. You can see DT
has learnt a lot from Metallica's earlier albums - what other band was
using so many time sig. changes and feels before Metallica? KC,Rush and
Yes. Their sound compares to DT - I think not. DT took that and made it
into an art. DT learnt from Metallica (and others), just as Metallica
learnt from bands like Thin Lizzy (all those harmonised solos). Now DT is
influencing new bands into another direction.Metallica reached a high with
MOP and then started a slow drift down. DT has a hell of a lot to give
before they reach their high and then we watch what happens. When it
happens I hope they realise and quit while they're ahead. I think if I hear
DT's ReLoad (in 10 - 15 years time) I'll cry! Appreciate Metallica for
what they were and for what they gave to other groups. I gotta say that the
steps that Metallica took are not progress and anyone who says so need to
join the Bjork category above. Anyway, since I'm relatively new to the list
I figure everyone gets flamed sometime. It's all IMO but if you really have
to flame do it in private.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:49:34 +0100 (MET)
From: "Luca Benni (studente 150 ore)" <benni@dipmat.unipg.it>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: new album of DT in the 98 ?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971210104447.30705B-100000@netserver.dipmat.unipg.it>
I'm not in the jammers list now
but i'd like to know a thing:
I explain:
I listened , in the DT concert in Milan (italy),
before the concert, some unreleased tracks of Fallen Into Infinity
a song that in the chorus tell "raising the knife" (and we know this song)
but also
AN INCREDIBLE INSTRUMENTAL SONG 20 minute longer
a slow beautiful song
and other incredible songs !!!
they will release in the 98 RE-FALLEN INTO INFINITY like RE-LOAD
because all the songs were so much beautifull !!!!!!!!!
please write me
bye
bye Luca
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3343
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