YTSEJAM Digest 3341
Today's Topics:
1) Star Wars humor (fwd)
by mamalookabubuday@juno.com
2) Semi-flame / Rogerjam / Top10 / 2M / DT opening
by Seroussi <seroussi@algonet.se>
3) Re: More Fates...
by Brian Hansen <bhansen1@leland.Stanford.EDU>
4) UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Angra-not DT clone
by Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
5) UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: XMAS CD 1997 INFO WRONG!
by Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
6) HELP! Pathetic plea (Little DTC)
by NuGgeTMaN <emoeglin@wezl.org>
7) Re: Fates/DT/ and crappy responses.
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
8) Opeth
by Paul Dyer <dyer@taunet.net.au>
9) Re: More Fates...
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
10) At the Gates
by "Wes <Beavis> Foll" <wfoll@america.net>
11) Re: Fates Warning...
by Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
12) Fan club not cashing checks
by "Paul Gregory Humm" <humm@levy.com>
13) complexity
by Anna & Heike Boedeker <boedeker@netcologne.de>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:16:59 EST
From: mamalookabubuday@juno.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Star Wars humor (fwd)
Message-ID: <19971209.152507.7663.1.mamalookabubuday@juno.com>
For all you fellow sci fi geeks out there :-)
Scott
DARTH VADER'S GUIDE TO EFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT SKILLS
If you're a company manager, you need a sensitive grasp of human
relations
to foster a positive climate in the workplace. To maximize productivity,
you need to make workers feel free to express their thoughts and
concerns.
Darth Vader can help you to achieve your goals.
Lord Vader's proven methods enable managers to deal effectively with a
wide
range of workplace situations. Using the Dark Side of the Force has never
been easier!
Check out these sample tips. Then call 1-800-DEATHSTAR to order your
guide
now!
1. What do you say when a fellow manager asks you about the possibility
of
promoting one of your employees, who has done good work before but
recently
failed to complete an assignment to your satisfaction?
You say, "He is as clumsy as he is stupid."
2. How do you respond when an employee questions the company's new growth
strategy, suggesting that it might be difficult to surpass the combined
profits of Microsoft and Coca-Cola within the next six months?
You say, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." You apply pressure to
his
neck.
3. What do you say when an employee asks you, "Is it true I'll have to
work
overtime every day for the next ten weeks because you've decided that all
our new products need to be released ahead of schedule?"
You say, "Search your feelings. You know it to be true." (Cutting off one
of the employee's body parts to reinforce your point is optional.)
4. What do you say when you are at a social function and meet one of your
employees, who starts telling you about how he likes to collect teddy
bears
and play tiddlywinks in his spare time?
You say, "You are unwise to lower your defences." You inform him that you
have different hobbies.
5. How do you respond when a worker of the opposite sex makes
inappropriate
advances toward you and you want to put a stop to this behavior?
You say, "I am your father."
--------- End forwarded message ----------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:23:20 +0100
From: Seroussi <seroussi@algonet.se>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Semi-flame / Rogerjam / Top10 / 2M / DT opening
Message-ID: <348DC4D8.E69F0499@algonet.se>
> From: Steve.Arthur@Thameswater.CO.UK
> Subject: ESCAPISM & SELF-GRANDISING PLAGIARISM
>
> 2. I wish I could remember the band and song that talks about people
> desperately listening to their songs and taking lyrics to almost be their
> own personal message, each time they recite and feel ownership of the lyric
Is it bad to have your own intepertations on something? Is it wrong to have a
lyrical piece stir emotions in you?
> they build themself up into something they're not.
How else are you supposed to develop and change? Are DT building themselves
into something they're not by releasing stuff different than their former
releases? Who are you to tell people what they are and what they are not?
---- > 10) Those "M" bands > by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br> > 11) Re: Kaboob > by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br> > 12) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3335 > by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br> > 13) Mustaine and "That" band > by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br> > 14) DTIFC XMas CD > by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>MFP is not a title of honor...Itchy, why don't you change it to "ytsejammers with no life" list?
but seriously...you can group your posts into one, like I do...you could also use private email...
---- > From: Arash Ashouriha <ashouria@FH-Niederrhein.DE> > Subject: thank you > > BTW, my top 10 albums of the week :
Am I the only person who has a feeling this was only posted as an excuse to post a top 10 list?
---- > From: "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com> > Subject: geez > > in these last few jams, this has got to be the most times that Ron > McGovney's name has been mentioned. anywhere. ever.
Agreed, I think this factual discussion of Megadeth & Metallica shouldn't exist on any forum...use your search engines, people...
> ok, on another note--anyone know exactly why dt has never opened for a > larger band?
They did...
Extracted from the Iron Maiden Faq:
Bands that opened for Iron Maiden: .. Dream Theater - (May/June '92) - RITZ, New York City
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:26:42 -0800 From: Brian Hansen <bhansen1@leland.Stanford.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: More Fates... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971209142642.006a069c@bhansen1.pobox.stanford.edu>
>From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu> > Ok, I listened to about the first 25 minutes of APSOG today. I did .. >from the first, I would call this music simplistic before I would call it >complex. I can definitely see where that person was coming from when they >said it sounds like minimalist plunking. There is just nothing about it that .. >I think Alder's melodies are hideous on this album. >no one >has really answered this question since Ernie and I originally posted it a >few days ago. > -Clark
O.k. Clark, I don't have finals right now, so let me kill some time and beat this dead horse a little. I don't know what other people like about Fates, but here's my opinion.
1. Minimalism - Yes, Fates uses this. It is an art form, and can be appreciated. That is exactly what Jim M. is doing when he is hitting just a couple of notes on the guitar. This is extreme minimalism. To notice "complexity" in this, focus on the rhythm (cadence, meter, etc) that is being created, not the notes. You will also notice the rhythm has subtle changes and shifts. It's not just repetitive all the time. It's used all over the place with Fates.
2. Synchronization - There's a part on APSoG that is just piano and acoustic guitar. They are synchronized and intertwining. It's very impressive live. Could be considered to be complex. Probably wouldn't have happened without KM.
3. Sweeping Sound - On APSoG, with the addition of KM, we have all of that dramatic keyboard sound that we are familiar with in I&W and Awake. Let's assume that we all like this already, since this is the DT mailing list.
4. Dissonance - Yes, Alder's "melodies" can be hard on the ear. This is intentional. It is somewhat extreme. Listen to the very start of "No Exit" for some major dissonance. Classically, dissonant notes can be used to bridge from one chord to the next. Fates takes it further than that and holds dissonances and progresses to dissonant chords. This has always been a Fates trademark.
* An example of this dissonance from music theory: using a keyboard, play a note (ignore the flats and sharps, just use the white keys here). Now skip over one (white) key and play another note at the same time (we'll call this the "second"). They sound "good" together. Skip over another key and play a "third" with it. This sounds good. It's also a chord. Skip over another and add a forth. Sounds good, but getting a little dissonant. Add a fifth, add a sixth, add a seventh. We're still using the same pattern of skipping one note, so you might think that this should all sound good. It gets dissonant. It is hard on the ear. In classical music, Wagner first started to use this, going all the way to the ninth at times. Many people cringed when they first heard it. Beethoven probably only went to the forth. Not sure about that though.
So anyway, these are all of the reasons why I APPRECIATE Fates. It is also why they might be considered more complex, from a music theory perspective. This doesn't mean that anyone has to "like" listening to it. I just happen to like it.
Just to put APSoG in it's proper place, I can tell you that I like I&W and Awake better. So even I would have been somewhat disappointed if I would have picked up APSoG after all the hype. Luckily, I picked it up right when it came out, and didn't have anybodies opinion to taint my first listen. So I was happy that I liked it better than most of the other Fates stuff, and not disappointed that it wasn't as good as I&W.
Hope this helps in appreciating Fates, but you still don't have to "like" it.
hasta, BH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:53:07 +1000 From: Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Angra-not DT clone Message-ID: <4A256568.0082D074.00@nschq-e-navy.navy.gov.au>
>I dont see how anyone can say that Angra is a DT clone. Sure Angra is prog metal but >that doesn't make them a DT clone. There might have been 5 seconds in one song where it >might have resembled DT but other than that, Angra is not a DT clone in my opinion.
Of course there are two people on this list who do :) Hopefully they have consulted a doctor and had this problem recified :)
Any sane thinking person knows that DT & Angra are chalk and cheese
graham
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:02:13 +1000 From: Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: XMAS CD 1997 INFO WRONG! Message-ID: <4A256568.007E705A.00@nschq-e-navy.navy.gov.au>
>Third, the CD will indeed be about 75 minutes long, but it will NOT contain soundchecks, >any of the unreleased demos, covers, the lounge-UAGM, or any messages. Maybe you have to >get used to it first, but it is very rare and interesting material, that's for sure!
>That's all I'll tell you, I just wanted to avoid any disappointments.
So what is on the CD then, you seem to be sure of it's contents ?
graham
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:00:11 -0500 (EST) From: NuGgeTMaN <emoeglin@wezl.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: HELP! Pathetic plea (Little DTC) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971209175505.31635A-100000@infinite.wezl.org>
Alrighty I't's been a LONG time since I've done this, but I've busted my butt for DT fans for a long time, so now it's your turn to help me a bit. I have TOTALLY overhauled my webpage and added all kinds of seriously fun and cool things to it...plus I've done a helluva lot to design some graphics and stuff...it all loads fast as hell...so all I'm asking is for a few of ya to browse the damn thing...give me some feedback...you know. In return I'll TOTALLY browse your site, link it...whatever...I just want some exposure! The FuNKee KRiB MUST prosper! Also...when I say check out my page...I mean like seriously check it out...not just get to the main page to make the counter go up...I mean check it out. Anyways sorry for the pathetic plea...Hope to see some of ya at the Atlanta DT show...I will be a DT virgin no longer after 12/16 :) Better wear protection eh?
_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ^ According to the circle of fifths, and the order of sharps and flats: ^ ^ If the alphabet continued as notes progressed (Using Major Key Sigs) ^ ^ (i.e. A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, etc.) eventually the key of Z Major ^ ^ would have 4 sharps. ^ ^ "Just Lighten up and listen to the Music" -Kevin Moore (inside joke) ^ ^ Eric Moegling: Manager for "Lifting Shadows Off A Ring" ^ ^ and "Progressive Genius" ^ ^ The Dream theater and Progressive Metal WebRings ^ ^ HOMEPAGE - http://www.wezl.org/NuGgeTMaN or http://www.wezl.org/lift ^ ^_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_^
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:02:20 -0800 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Fates/DT/ and crappy responses. Message-ID: <199712092302.PAA20676@gms.gmsnet.com>
On the Eve of Destruction, Jonathan Case said: > >And the fact that I don't like the new ballads by DT, i.e. Hollow Years >and Anna Lee. (TAMP is OK). And I don't like the sound production. OH >WELL! So I think that APSoG is way better than FII. Oh well. That >still doesn't change the fact that DT is my fav. band.
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!! I can't stand the ballads also... I think Derek should put a fork in it... He'll never be Kevin... damn shame. Let's have more LitS type songs! :)
Although TAMP live was good... because those Dual Rects were screaming... :)
Well you know, you can't compare Fates to DT, apples and oranges, music is not a competition, it's too subjective... what stick do you measure it by?
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:46:35 +0900 From: Paul Dyer <dyer@taunet.net.au> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Opeth Message-ID: <1330378901-46699726@smtp.taunet.net.au>
Rogerio wrote:
>>followed closely by Opeth. The only bad thing: I have over 30 CD's by >>Metallica (I'm not even counting videos) and only 2 by Opeth.
Don't worry man. In the new year a new album will be released by Opeth and from all accounts it is awesome. Better than "Reload" no doubt......
Also next year look out for "The Haunted". They are made up of three ex members of At the Gates (I wish they hadn't split up!!) and some other dudes. I've heard two songs. Kinda like Slayer for the 90's (not Undisputed Attitude though - but at least they stayed heavy!!). They are on Earache records.
Cheers
Paul D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:06:07 -0800 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: More Fates... Message-ID: <199712092306.PAA20744@gms.gmsnet.com>
On the Eve of Destruction, CLARK ABEL said: >
[another Clark post tastfully truncated]
>to respond because some people on this list seem to think that they have some >gift that allows them to grasp the greatness of this band while the rest of us >are too stupid. I believe that there are people who really love this stuff, >but whatever it is about FW that appeals to you, I'm just not buying that it's >because this music is so good that it's "beyond" me. I have to conclude that >this supposed "complexity" is mostly a myth. It's just not there, folks.
Actually Clark... your sanity is mostly a myth. Complexity is a pattern which does not exist in your simplistic world. I have new rocks for your head, these are a little softer, like limestone.
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:12:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Wes <Beavis> Foll" <wfoll@america.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: At the Gates Message-ID: <199712092312.SAA21798@web3.america.net>
>Cross your fingers on this one folks!!! this will be difficult to pull off live) All of Savatage (except Zak), Bob Kinkel, and orchestra will be in the TSO band for the performance. Zak will be at home preparing for fatherhood!
>NP: AT THE GATES "Terminal Spirit Disease"
RahhhH!!!!!!!! I have this one too and it's awesome. This band is (or *was* actually) the coolest of all death/black metal IMO. They actually knew how to write great songs and still stay hardcore. Too bad they don't exist anymore. My favorite At the Gates disc was definitely the last one they put out called Slaughter of the Soul. Great band! Beavis (Wes Foll) http://www.america.net/~wfoll/beavis.htm ++The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds.
++The pessimist fears it is true. /| / ||\ / || \ ______________ _ ______ _ __ __ //| || \\_____ _____| ||___ // |\ \/ / //_| || \ | || || | | || |/ ///|| \ / / __ || |\ \ | || || |__| || <//_|| / \ / / | || | \ \| || || __ || |\ \__ |/ /\ \ /_/ |_||_| \ || || | |_||_|/\ \ || / \_\ \ || ||/ \_\||/ \ ||/ \|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:16:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Fates Warning... Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971209143956.2724A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, CLARK ABEL wrote:
> >> This only shows that EVERYTHING in music is subject to oppinions. I >>think Fates' music has a lot of complexity in it, > > So I've heard....WHERE?
Perfect Symmetry -- no noodling, IMHO (well, not much), tight playing over many time changes, drumming that is pretty out of the ordinary (as in not 2, 4, 6 and 7 but some interesting things going on, esp with the hi hat and ride), guitar playing that, while still pretty technical, fits the style of the rhythm and the overall feel of the song.
>metal band, here's where the metal solo goes". I know that last sentence is >all totally subjective, so take my opinion for what it's worth (not a whole >hell of a lot to a lot of people on this list).
Perhaps what divides Fates fans from others is how they view the music. Speaking for myself only here, I tend to "feel" my way through music. I like what generates the proper image in my mind (as old Metallica and all Dream Theater does), but I also am drawn strongly towards music I can "feel." I like Bush -- mainly because I thought Everything Zen was a fun song (it made me smile, and I could sing along). I like Sting, not because he's any sort of bass god, but because his albums evoke a mood that I love to swim in. Fates has two distinct eras, one which evokes images (Arch-era lyrics, while surrounded by Maidenesque music and dealing with mystic/fantasy/mythological subject matter, was never in my opinion overtly cheesy), and one which evokes a mood (Matheos has always written very introspective pieces -- Aresti had a political bent, and nobody else wrote anything lyrically, but contributed musically). I like both eras, for different reasons. When I'm in a certain mood, I'll pop in APSoG and lie on my bed.
A quick note on APSoG -- it seems to noodle (macronoodling, I suppose) because it's meant to. Matheos said it was a wandering sort of song because it's based on a common situation. You wake up an hour before your alarm clock's supposed to go off, and you lie in bed, trying desperately to sleep, but drifting about in semi-consciousness, thinking about the times before the present. It's a sort of "the hour of the wolf" situation, where everybody's regrets and guilt come to the fore to haunt them. Finally, as is Murphy's law, when the speaker finally drifts off, guess what? The alarm clock goes off (grin) "It so figures." The gray of the music (all the restraint and moderation) conjures the perfect "watching the room lighten from the gray light of the dawn emerging through closed curtains" mood. Everything is subdued, muted, and generally ... half-conscious ^_^ I enjoy it, because the music conjures this mood, and the lyrics support it with the wandering, nearly stream-of-consciousness path and the random meories that pop up.
I won't defend any position that APSoG is overtly intricate, like a Fabrage' Egg or a spider's web. Rather, I feel Fates is intricate because of the result they produce in a listener's mind (or maybe just a fan's mind ^_^). Kind of bad logic there, I know (just because A=>B doesn't nessecarily mean B=>A, but it's still possible!), but I contend that their intricacy comes from the intricate constructs only their music can produce in a mind. It takes a lot of subtle things (this bass note here, that guitar strum there, this harmony here, or missing there) to produce a specific mood. It just may be that the mood isn't to your liking.
> I tried to make that clear in my last post. I normally don't, but >the implication from a few people here lately is that if you don't get Fates, >it's beyond you. I think that's silly, but if it IS true, I want to get it. >No one seems to want to help me out though...
maybe my above paragraphs will shed some light, mostly on why I like APSoG
> -Clark > >
--Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------- "..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen" ---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:27:47 -0800 From: "Paul Gregory Humm" <humm@levy.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Fan club not cashing checks Message-ID: <199712092327.PAA06314@baygate.bayarea.net>
> >Around October 1st, I sent out my $15 check to the New York > >address listed on http://www.rsabbs.com/dt/fanzine/ . > > > >As of December 9th, today, my check has not been cashed (I > >can check my account history online). > > Ditto for me. Anyone know what is going on? I wrote my check on the 8th. > Ive received two statements so far, and it hasnt been on one of them.
Same here. I sent a check for membership in the Dream Theater International Fan club on November 7, following the instructions at http://www.rsabbs.com/dt/fanzine/. As of yesterday (December 8) my check had not been cashed. Nor have I received any mailings from the fan club.
Could someone on the list who has contact with the fan club management or with the band please inquire about this matter? Thanks.
Paul
----------- Paul Humm humm@levy.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:29:32 +0100 From: Anna & Heike Boedeker <boedeker@netcologne.de> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: complexity Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971210002932.007cc210@mail.netcologne.de>
>>Maybe that's why people think it's not complex - but go ahead and try to >>play all those drum parts exactly like Mark plays them, or sing those vocal >>lines and see how well you do it. That's what complex means, right? Doing >>something that not everyone can do?=20 > > Two things... first, no I would not say that that's what complex >means. Secondly, I don't find Fates' music to be all that technically >impressive, either. Zonder sounds good, but not mind-blowing to me... although >I'll admit that I'm no drummer and a drummer would be better qualified to >make that judgement than I. But I've never been particularly impressed with <snip>
Hmm... I always thought of it like complexity might be located in different areas... like improvising over "Giant Steps" to most is a brain-melter, but you can go wild over "Maiden Voyage"... you can even write 3 chord pop songs full of little intricate difficulties... or try to perform Reich's "Clapping Music" together w/ a friend of yours, everyone can clap hir hands, yeah? :-) ...
I like Zonder b/c he plays economically... he leaves out some stuff that I usually would be tempted to expect to replace it w/ something more interesting... That is not to say that I didn't like MP or Neil Peart, but guys like Zonder and Bill Bruford are maybe harder to fathom to me, more suprising from one moment to the next, and simply fascinating for this reason...
Matheos sure isn't one of those Italo-American/Italian Paganiniesque guitar more-than-just-gods like JP, Vai, Satriani, Gianni Guerra (Madsword), Tommaso Talamanca (Sadist) et al., but why should he after all? I can't find fault w/ his playing, and otherwise I enjoy diversity.
Heike
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3341 **************************
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