YTSEJAM Digest 2155
Today's Topics:
1) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2149
by SRElysian@aol.com
2) Progressive Metal w/Female Vocalist
by <CNG@tcco.com> (Chung Ng)
3) Re on sigh and some Q's
by larnil-4@student.luth.se (Lars Nilsson)
4) Reviews requested
by Matthew P Robbins <robbins@aero.und.edu>
5) Rules/Sucks
by Mike Backof <mbacko1@umbc.edu>
6) Threshold, Angra, Marillion (NDTC)
by curth@execpc.com
7) Assorted NON-SUICIDE stuff: concerts, Fates Warning...
by Andrew Forcier <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
8) Suicide
by rbeall@fdldotnet.com (grim88)
9) Movie reviews on Internet
by Andrew Forcier <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
10) Queensryche Rules Arlington, Texas!
by Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
11) Progressive Metal
by "Elv" <cyclone@securenet.net>
12) dt 95 theme
by bishop@cts1.internetwis.com
13) Re: 3rd Degree dude@ DT and Rush
by Tymoteusz Altman <altman@sfu.ca>
14) Marillion RULEZ!
by Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:28:50 -0500
From: SRElysian@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2149
Message-ID: <970103082849_70395414@emout08.mail.aol.com>
I seem to have a problem with canceling this news letter... I was originally
trying to get the DREAM THEATER news letter... is it possible for you to
change me over? Or atleast cancel this letter... AOL lost half my back mail
so I have no passwords or anything... I'd really appreciate this....thanx...
-SR
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 9:08:00 EST
From: <CNG@tcco.com> (Chung Ng)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Progressive Metal w/Female Vocalist
Message-ID: <vines.3hH8+N7FnmA@tcx.tcco.com>
I've been on a "chick" band thing lately (Juliana Hatfield, Cranberries, Sarah
McLaughlin, Tori Amos, etc...) and I was just wondering if there were any
progressive metal bands out there with a female vocalists. Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:07:26 +0100 (MET)
From: larnil-4@student.luth.se (Lars Nilsson)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re on sigh and some Q's
Message-ID: <v01530500aef2c875e2ee@[130.240.37.220]>
Hi, everybody.
I do not often write things in this list but here's what I think now:
I thought this was some sort of DT list...
Get me right here, I do admire all you guys out there who seem to have the
patience and will to discuss endless on varius subjects. Myself, I just get
tired after one or to posts. (NOT saying that it's wrong to care about my
fellow humans. I just grow tired wery fast.)
As far as I think, this is the most resonable thing I've heard this far:
>The point is that not everyone's brain works in the same way and not
>everyone >thinks like you (though it would be nice if everyone thought
>like me :^)
Thank you mr. Zach for that one.
Now for my real subject on this post: Marillion. It feels like I've heard
of them since I was a little boy, but I have never ever listened to
anything. Know I just dont't know where to start. Can someone help me out
here? Where shall I start?
Also: Last time I wrote I mentioned the band T-Ride (they have as far as I
know only done one record, on Hollywood Records). I got no comments on
thet one. And that gives me two alternatives: 1) You have not heard them.
2) You have heard them and think it's old news.
If 2's the right answer: Gee, I'm sorry.
But if 1's the one: Run to the store man! This is a record for all you guys
who think you've heard it all. T-Ride is doing something that is very hard
to describe. They use a sound that is very... hm...*hollow*(?), and double
kicks that gives you a rytmic pattern between the bass and the drumms that
I've never heard before. They have a singer of the *old* heavy metal school
- this guy have no end uppwards - and they refuse to give solos... that is
an odd thing to do of course, but I love it! Attitude!
Well, try'em out folks. And feel free to mail me if you happen to like
them, 'cause I do. (No kidding, said the audience suprised.)
See you out there!
- Larsan
"All my words are spoken,
in a stolen prayer"
- A. Cooper
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:10:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Matthew P Robbins <robbins@aero.und.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Reviews requested
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.90.970103085541.63256A-100000@heart.cas.und.nodak.edu>
Seeing how this is suppost to be a place to discuss prog music, I
thought I might - novel idea huh! Seriously, I'd like to here some HONEST
opinions and reviews on the following bands before I make any purchases.
Please let me know how each band compares to DT. My preference is always
towards the heavier prog sounds (like DT).
~Van Der Graaf Ganerater
~Enchant
~Threshold
~Psychotic Waltz
~Symphony X (or is it Symphonic X - not sure which is correct)
~Magellan
~Anekdaten
~Magma
~Stratovarious
~Eternity X
~Conception
~Atomic Opera
~Liquid Eclipse
~[Any other heavy prog bands I don't know of]
Remember, be honest, but explain your opinion and make a comparision to
DT (i.e. "its sucks" or "it rules" doesn't help me at all).
Thanks in advance.
~Matt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 11:00:26 -0800
From: Mike Backof <mbacko1@umbc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Rules/Sucks
Message-ID: <32CD574A.D4B@umbc.edu>
Hello Jammers,
A quick comment:
I wrote:
>is a very effective review of a piece of music. I own all of the
>Marillion albums and the guy who said Marillion "sucks" based on
>listening to part of one album didn't even tell the members of the jam
>what the name of the album was. Can he judge a band, wrap up all of
>their musical career and all of their albums of which he has heard one
>in the term "sucks." It seems a bit brief. Plus it really won't go
"KorgX3" <ibanez@mailhost.cyberhighway.net>wrote:
>I really think he has a right to think and say it sucks. Hell, if it was
>Fugazi, I'd say that it sucked, too. Never liked that one. The guy
>has a right to judge things himself without us babysitting him. Same
>with Chris and Jaime. I may not agree with them all the time, but it
>takes all kinds to make a world run, eh? Open your mind. If you
>don't like someone's opinion and feel you need to dissent their
>opinion, do so. It's what makes the jam fun, I think. I myself
>choose generally not to do so so as to spare flames from heading my
>direction as I've caught many in the past. Cheers and be yourselves.
My point was that if he really wanted to actually prevent people from
buying the album, he should have said what album it was and commented more
on it. I don't care if someone walks in my room and listens to my 400 some
CDs and he/she finds that they don't like any of them. That is their
choice and their preference. I encourage people to slag bands if they feel
that people shouldn't spend their money on their albums. My point was that
I'm not going to stop buying an album by a band that had gotten several
good reviews because a few people said simply "they suck". Tell me why
they suck, then I'll consider it. I agree that difference of opinion makes
the jam a more interesting place. I enjoy the fact that we have people who
are into varying musical styles.
Later,
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Backof mbacko1@umbc.edu http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1
WWW Pages - Unsigned Bands: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1/munsign.html
WWW Pages - Inferno Page: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mbacko1/inferno.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:09:08 -0600 (CST)
From: curth@execpc.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Threshold, Angra, Marillion (NDTC)
Message-ID: <199701031709.LAA08298@mail.execpc.com>
Hi all,
With all the talk lately about various prog bands again, I was wondering if
anyone could tell me what Threshold is up to. Last I heard, they were working
on their third album ,but I haven't heard anything for some time.
I must thank a bunch of you for bringing up Angra in your messages - I just
put their first one in for the first time in a while and really enjoyed it. I
gotta get the rest of their stuff - how many discs do they have now?
Lastly - in regards to Marillion, I think the majority of the people who don't
really get into them (including myself) don't like them because they are so
mellow. I mean I still have Misplaced Childhood and used to have Brave, and I
tried liking both of them - I can kinda get into MC, but I never liked Brave -
so it's not like I didn't give them a chance. Like I said though, what it
probably boils down to for most people is that they were expecting something a
bit heavier and were disappointed.
Scott Hansen
curth@execpc.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 12:16:26 -0800
From: Andrew Forcier <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Assorted NON-SUICIDE stuff: concerts, Fates Warning...
Message-ID: <199701031714.AA23557@gateway2.prudential.com>
Hey there,
First and foremost, to everyone posting about suicide, whether
positive or negative, put it in your subject heading. That makes it
easier for me to skip past it.
After hearing Fates Warning on the Rush Tribute, I found
Parallels used for $4.99. I've only listened to the first couple of
songs, but my blood didn't get pumping fellas. I still haven't given it
the full listen though, so no final verdict. Also completed my Chris
Isaak collection, I'm sure you're all thrilled to hear. In my
post-Christmas shopping I still have not been able to find Ride the
Lightning on CD. I asked for it for Xmas, to no avail. Oh my God, Chris
Isaak, Metallica, and Fates Warning in one paragraph! It's a cold day in
New Jersey, if not in hell.
The Rush Tribute sucks. There, I said it. Add it to the
rules/sucks debate. There are high points, but only two songs sound good
all the way through. Whether it be performance or production reasons,
this was a tremendous disappointment. Who is this Townson guy, and who
told him he could play guitar? Most of the "groups" don't even sound like
they rehearsed, their timing isn't cohesive and they fill and solo
simultaneously (make sense? looks wierd to me). And funny, I don't
remember that drum solo at the beginning of Jacob's Ladder... If these
guys really liked Rush so much, why didn't they remember that one of the
major keys to their style is RESTRAINT. Alex doesn't solo in every song,
Neil doesn't play a fill every four bars, and Geddy doesn't go nuts when
he's supposed to play the main rhythm in the bass line. AAARGH!!!!
Good prog... I still haven't gotten past Rush, Yes, and Dream
Theater. Steve Vai's Fire Garden: Does anyone else wish Steve had just
ended the album with Little Alligator? I guess I'm not a prog man at
heart. Metal and jazz are my two true loves... Oh, and Dr. Pepper and
Taco Bell!
Concerts of the year (top five only, since top tens are wasting
bandwith, hehe):
1. The G3 Tour, NYC: Steve, Eric, and Joe. Or as my
friend put it- the Wizard, the Grand Master,
and GOD.
2. Dream Theater, NJ: Great song selection + great
sound + great fans = AMAZING SHOW
3. Rush, Albany: Fantastic song selection + mediocre
sound + insane fans = AWESOME SHOW
4. Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds, Amherst MA: Rush
played for three hours, and so did Dave and
Tim- and they played MINARETS!!!!!!
5. Dave Matthews Band, NYC: They opened with Seek Up
and left on Dancing Nancies, and I never sat
down once. I even pissed in front of 20,000
people at MSG. What a Rush!!!! hehe
There you have it. Although this wasn't a great year for albums (no DT,
Megadeth, Queensryche, or Saigon Kick), it was a phenomenal year for
shows (see above). Happy 1997!!!!
Andrew
_____________________
When the music stops,
there's only the sound of the rain...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:05:43 -0600
From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (grim88)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Suicide
Message-ID: <199701031905.NAA11927@fdl.fdldotnet.com>
ok, I have been quite up until now but seeing everyone go on and on about
this subject I only have one thing to say.
It is his life. let him do what he wants. You have no right to call the cops
on someone if they are going to kill themselves. Nor should you call them a
failure, an idiot, or tell them what to do.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 13:19:29 -0800
From: Andrew Forcier <andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com>
To: andrew.t.forcier@prudential.com, ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Movie reviews on Internet
Message-ID: <199701031817.AA25396@internet2.prudential.com>
On a separate issue...
For all you movie lovers out there! I have been a frequent
visitor to both Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert's web sites through their
respective newspapers. Just recently they added a special section to
Siskel's page where you can enter your own movie review! I promptly
submitted my review of Scream which I saw Wednesday. If you're interested
in reading it, mail me and I'll send you the site address. Or if you're
interested in submitting your own reviews, mail me also. This is the best
thing I've seen on the net in a while...
And to answer your next question: Yes, I have far too much time
on my hands.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:32:50 -0800
From: Adam Barnhart <adamb@cfmc.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Queensryche Rules Arlington, Texas!
Message-ID: <199701031832.KAA13596@main.cfmc.com>
As always, keeping things interesting....
>From: Chris Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
>
>> 1. "Bombay Vindaloo" is a sort of "pre-arranged" improv. The atmosphere in
>> the two songs is similar -- that's not unintentional.
>
>How do you gauge their "intent?"
Well, I'll cop to that not being phrased correctly -- it looks like I'm
saying they TRIED to rip of "YYZ." That isn't the case, obviously. What I
meant to say (I'll try it again, anyhow) is that both pieces INTEND to set
up moods that are similar. Not that Dream Theater is being derivitive, but
that the sound they create is similar to the sound of "YYZ."
>> 2. Petrucci's semi-clean sound is a direct rip of Alex Lifeson's sound,
>> circa "Hold Your Fire." He's said this in interviews.
>
>Wanting to get any particular sound on your guitar is influenced by sounds
>you've heard and liked. I want a good thick distortion for my 7 string,
>like KoRn's, but I'm not about to start writing music like KoRn. Your
>sound comes from YOUR hands. JP is so far beyond Lifeson in all areas...
>somehow I have to doubt he does anything to be "Like Lifeson".
No way. I like John Petrucci and he's got tremendous chops, certainly
greater than Lifeson's, and the man's my favorite of the new wave of
guitarists, but "so far beyond Lifeson in all areas" is just wrong. I don't
know what "all areas" means, but if you're talking about things outside of
purely how fast the guys play, I think I can put together a cogent argument
against what you say. And I didn't say he wanted to be "Like Lifeson."
"Direct rip" was a poor choice of words, again....I'll admit that. But it
was the sound that he was aiming for. And if what you're saying is that
sound has nothing to do with the way music is written, I'd say you're not
paying much attention. It isn't the sole determinant, but, on the other
hand, it plays a role. And I hit on other aspects elsewhere.
>> 4. There tends to be a large synth/sequenced presence at the head of tunes
>> ("Learning To Live"), which is something that Rush has been doing for a
>> while ("Big Money," "New World Man," "Force Ten").
>
>I suppose Emerson Lake and Palmer are copying Rush for using synths to
>start songs too? That's like saying "You started that song with an A7
>chord on your guitar! Thief!"
Ah yes....but ELP isn't a band with the same kind of musical composition.
They're a trio, like Rush, but without the same degree of guitar presence.
You need a better example. And, to elaborate, in all four songs I mentioned
above, the keyboard leads into a significant guitar and bass presence. ELP
doesn't do that.
>> 5. Instrumental as solo piece -- "Ytse Jam" vs. "YYZ"
>
>So they did an instrumental? What's the point? Rush didn't invent the
>instrumental. That's more of a coincedental similarity if you ask me(and
>by posting publicly, you are asking me. :))
Okay....but the way the solos are set up is similar. I didn't, for example,
refernce it with respect to "Cinema," because "Cinema" doesn't set up solos
in the same way. The Dream Theater and Rush pieces are showpieces for
individual playing as well as being coherent musical statements. There a
millions of instrumentals out there, but a small proportion of them function
the same way.
>This is not a flame... I just don't know how much of the similarity
>between Rush and DT is purposefully done. I love bothe bands, by the
>way... I just vastly prefer Dream Theater.
Don't sweat it too much with me....I'm disinclined to fly off the handle. I
know you know what you're talking about, we just don't agree. Mapping out
that disagreement is often an enjoyable and interesting process.
But I don't think my thesis came through very well. I'm influences by Rush,
too. Tremendously. More than anyone in Dream Theater, I'm sure. I still
don't write music that sounds that much like Rush. At the very least, they
don't sound like rip offs...but I've learned a lot about arrangements and
adventurous bass playing from the band. There's a difference between
influence and theft.
Five Gratutitous CD's:
======================
1. Rush: Test For Echo
2. Miles Davis: Sketches Of Spain
3. Tori Amos: Boys For Pele
4. Cab Calloway: Minnie The Moocher
5. Dave Sharman: 1990
Adam D. Barnhart
adamb@cfmc.com
ydnt85a@prodigy.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:26:39 -0500
From: "Elv" <cyclone@securenet.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Progressive Metal
Message-ID: <199701031929.LAA14088@pawn.ax.com>
Hey everyone,
The latest news on Progressive Metal bands can be found on my website:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4257
Don't forget to sign the Progressive Guest Book!
Elvis Batur
cyclone@securenet.net
elv@geocities.com
Music In Progress
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4257
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:33:56 -0600
From: bishop@cts1.internetwis.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: dt 95 theme
Message-ID: <199701032033.OAA17268@cts1.internetwis.com>
hey all,
i was wondering, where can i get a windows '95 dt theme, and how do i
install it? thanks!
mathew
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:02:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Tymoteusz Altman <altman@sfu.ca>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: 3rd Degree dude@ DT and Rush
Message-ID: <199701032002.MAA27582@fraser>
> So I've been to the DT show at Toad's, and also saw Rush at Nassau and
> Meadowlands. At Toad's and then at Nassau (the Rush show), I saw the guy from
> this prog. rock band called 3rd Degree, on line outside Toads and in the
> parking lot at Nassau Collissium. He was selling CD's and demo tapes of their
> material. At the DT show I was hesitant and didn't buy a tape, but when I saw
> the SAME GUY, wearing the SAME THING at the RUSH show, I bought a tape. I
> don't know if anyone else ran into the guy, but I must say the tape I have of
> them wth two of their songs on it do really rock. It's some tight, busy, DT
> feeling kinda stuff. I was impressed. The guy claimed that they are Rush,
> Dream Theater, Fates inspired, and after hearing it, it's probably true. 3rd
> Degree. Did any other jammers get it and/or hear it? Just curious.
>
I saw a couple of the guys in line at the birch hill, and malibu shows in
dec. '95. i bought their 2 song demo tape back then. i liked what i heard.
since then, they have released a full cd (supposedly over 70 minutes of music).
i'm on their mailing list, and received an order form for the cd which they
only wanted 10 bucks for! however since money is tight i never ordered the cd.
i believe they have a web page with some sound clips as well. i can't
remember the url, but i think it's accessible from one fo the prog rock pages
(probaby the Dutch prog rock page).
I'd be interested in any reviews of their full-length album.
Also i remember reading last week (i think) on one of the newsgroups that they
were playing a gig in the NJ area, so maybe some jammers will go there, and
post a review.
btw, from the 2 songs i heard, i wouldn't really compare them to rush, fates,
or dt in sound. i can see some influence though. i found it interesting though
that in their promo materials they spelled Dream Theater with an RE :)
tim>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:44:49 +0100
From: Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
To: "'The Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Marillion RULEZ!
Message-ID: <01BBF9BE.07A3D320@Data.startrek.GlobalXS.nl>
Juan Manuel Valverde Jaime said :
> i just bought a marillion cd.....im hearing it right now, i havent
> finished it and must say, i dont even want to ....it SUCKS!!!!
> big time....
Maybe you should listen to it a couple of times *first* (*all* of it),
before you say shit like that. Marillion is one of those bands you have
to get *into*, just like Dream Theater... I know people who *hated*
Marillion when they first heard them, and now *love* all their albums.
Just give them a fair chance. Btw, what album did you buy ?
> its sounds like cheap imitation of broadway musical combined with a
> little of genesis, or Phil Collins...i didnt like it....
Genesis... I'm guessing you either bought "Script for a Jester's Tear"
or "Fugazi". I'm almost sure you bought an album from the "Fish"-era.
Don't see where that "broadway musical" and "Phil Collins" crap came
from, though... Btw, both those albums are thought of as classics.
> the guy who signs..sucks....goddamn!!!
This would either be Fish or Steve Hogarth... Both are considered
to be great singers... Maybe you just should've said they're not
your cup of tea... On the other hand, who cares. This is a DT-list.
We're here to talk about Dream Theater (kidding) or recommend great
albums... We're *not* here to bash bands we don't like, and others
on the list might actually *love*.
> they suck big time....
Maybe *that's* why they have been *the* *most* influentual prog-band
since (early) Yes and Genesis (with Gabriel) ! Did you know they have
been an inspiration to many other bands, including Dream Theater ?
> they also sound like a bad pop metal band, kinda those groups of
> heavy metal that appear in movies....haha
There is not a *single* Marillion song that can be considered anything
close to "metal". Some songs are a bit poppy (Kayleigh, for instance),
but *heavy* ? Your CD *must* be a misprint.
> but well, can anyone tell me of GOOD prog. rock music??
I could name *dozens*, but you'd probably bash them after listening
to the first two tracks, or so... Marillion is considered to be one
of the best progbands *ever*. All the guys in Marillion are brilliant
musicians, and also *very* respected by *other* musicians (Portnoy,
for instance). You don't have to like them, but at least know your
shit before you smear it all over the Jam.
> im new to this...and im disapointed int his group...
You are new to *what*, exactly ? And why are you disappointed in
Marillion ? What kind of expectations did you have, that could lead
to such a bitter message ? Just because a *lot* of Ytsejammers *love*
Marillion (I'm guessing 10 % or so) that doesn't mean *you* have to
love them too !
And what was the purpose of your message, anyway ? So you don't like
Marillion... Who phuqing cares ? I don't like Metallica... Do you hear
*me* bitching about *that*. You didn't even take the effort to listen
to the entire album !
> i did like fates warning....and love dream theater...but marillion???
Have you ever considered you might not like progressive music at all,
but could possibly just be a metal head ?
> fuck!
Ok, I will :-d
> sorry man, but i didnt feel good about this band, and felt i had to
> say it but well thats my honest opinion,
You had no right to say that crap, at least *not* like *that*. Also,
you *can't* have an opinion about a band, after having listened to a
*few* songs only *ONCE*. Maybe you *thought* you had an honest opinion,
but I know from experience that some opinions can be a bit *too* honest
to post *as is*. If you use *just* the right words, you can state your
opinion *without* pissing (a lot of) people off. I suggest you try it,
some time...
> maybe other people like it, but i didnt to me it sucks,
There you go again !
"Maybe a lot of people *love* their music, but I don't like them"
Hmmm... sounds better already !
> and i respect everybody else's opinion...
I seriously doubt that... If you did, you would've respected the fact
that *a lot* of people on this list *love* Marillion... You would have
realized that you simply don't like the kind of music they make, but
that that doesn't mean they "suck".
> thanx and sorry
Just give that album a fair chance... listen to it a few times,
all the way through... What's the worst that could happen ?
Often, first impressions don't mean anything, especially with bands
like Marillion and Dream Theater... Some bands/albums have to grow
on you... Give it time... You never know.
This is not really a flame... Just an honest opinion... ;->
Mark (Marillion suggestion: "Brave", my favourite album *ever*)
_______________________________________________________itchy@dreamt.org__
All of us get lost in the darkness _ _____ ___ _ _ __ __
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars |`||_```_|/``_]|`]_[`|\`\_/`/
All of us do time in the gutter RUSH | | | | ( (_ | ___ | \_ /
Dreamers turn to look at the cars THE PASS |_| [_] \___]|_] [_| [__/
____________________________________________________bredius@globalxs.nl__
http://www.prognosis.com/itchy - http://www.globalxs.nl/home/b/bredius/
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2155
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