YTSEJAM Digest 2149
Today's Topics:
1) Re: oh yeah.. about that cow hating thing... and re: i'm sorry
by Carlos Alfaro <calfaro@caribe.net>
2) Suicide is not the Solution
by ichhi@matrix.mdn.com (Patrick Taylor)
3) re: im sorry
by jsj@ix.netcom.com (J. E. James)
4) Happy New Homepage !
by Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
5) RE: Dream Theater New Song
by zayas@monroe.ny.frontiercomm.net
6) Response to a suicide note.
by Maraya007@aol.com
7) JM 1st bass...
by John McCabe <caber1@cris.com>
8) ignorance surrounding me...
by "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@avalon.net>
9) ...and this is what all have waited for...
by Syrinx <syrinx@dreamt.org>
10) DTC? Hehehe
by Big.Swifty@twav.com
11) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2145
by edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
12) Re: Response to a suicide note.
by Drummnstan@aol.com
13) Eve & To Live Forever
by edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
14) 'Tage
by edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
15) Re: Response to a suicide note. and someones cold heart
by Drummnstan@aol.com
16) Re: Eve & To Live Forever
by Drummnstan@aol.com
17) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2148
by BlackSax@gnn.com (Richard D. Slaughter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 10:03:53 -0500
From: Carlos Alfaro <calfaro@caribe.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: oh yeah.. about that cow hating thing... and re: i'm sorry
Message-ID: <32CA7CD9.108@caribe.net>
Drummnstan@aol.com wrote:
> i along with rip have emailed mr stearns and hop i wasnt too late, man i was
> in this boat B4 and got out, thank good i did, couse i wouldnt have seen my
> neice born or be her godfather, erik if your readin this take it from someone
> whose been down that road and taken a u-turn, please DON'T DO IT, get some
> help, i am willing to bet that anyone on this mailing list would be more than
> willing to point you in the direction of someone who can help you.
>
> please respond
> stan
I also emailed him ( i hope this is a sick joke) ..and told him the same
thing.. he should give a listen to Images and Words again (NOT PULL ME
UNDER) .. i wrote him a few quotes like "Find all you need in your
mind..if you take the time" and most importatly "LIVE ANOTHER DAY,CLIMB
A LITTLE HIGHER, FIND ANOTHER REASON TO STAY" ... i hope he gets help
Seize the day, I heard him say :
"Life will not always be this way,
Look around...hear the sounds...
Cherish your life,while you're still around... "
<Dream Theater: A Change Of Seasons>
WoWoW! WoWoW! WoWoW! -Mike Portnoy
mailto:calfaro@Caribe.net
mailto:ytsekurt@geocities.com
http://premium.caribe.net/~calfaro
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:28:16 -0500 (GMT-0500)
From: ichhi@matrix.mdn.com (Patrick Taylor)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Suicide is not the Solution
Message-ID: <199701011728.MAA27429@decker.mdn.com>
Hello Everybody,
I just spoke with the Austin, TX Police Department. It seem that Mr.
Stearns is OK and is not suicidal (now?). In addition to me calling from
Indiana, they have received calls from Seattle and a couple other locations
across the country.
Good Job Jammers!
I briefly explained to the supervisor how an internet digest works, and
that they would probably be hearing from other concerned folks in the next
few days.
As far as Mr. Stearns goes, I am glad he is OK. PLEASE, don't judge him or
what he did/attempted/thought about doing. He should be congratulated for
having the guts to "keep on keeping on."
Erik, if you're reading this, thanks for realizing life is worth living!
I'm going to log off now and try to call you...
Sincerely,
Patrick Taylor
ptaylor@ichhi.mdn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:36:02 -0800
From: jsj@ix.netcom.com (J. E. James)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: re: im sorry
Message-ID: <199701011736.JAA11877@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
Dude, I hope you read this. I don't know if you are joking or not, but
if you are not, FUCKING RECONSIDER MAN! Killing yourself is a coward's
way out, everybody still has a chance to turn their life around no
matter how screwed up it may be at the moment. You mentioned your
family, so that's something to live for right there. Talk to them, try
to get help, do fucking something, but don't kill yourself. You will
be missing out on any great things in life you have coming your way
(and we all have great things coming our way sometime or another, no
matter how bleak our lives may be).
Just don't do it man,
Justin
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:49:30 +0100
From: Mark Bredius <bredius@globalxs.nl>
To: "'The Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Happy New Homepage !
Message-ID: <01BBF817.9B8D8520@Borg.startrek.GlobalXS.nl>
Hi there :-)
First of all, a Happy New Year to everyone on this list !
I just finished a new (and hopefully improved) version of my homepage.
It has a new look, a new cartoon, new pages, some pictures... I even
cleared my guestbook and reset my counter :-) (the old guestbook can
still be viewed, though). Took me about a month, but I'm happy with it.
There are a few things I wanna mention :
I added a page with information on how to get on and *off* the Freaks-
list, the Ytsejam, Voices, Notes From The Edge (Yes) and five Tori
Amos mailinglists (I'm on all of those lists myself). If you ever
want to get off this list, don't post about it here, but check my page.
There's also a page about "Theater Of Dreams", the Dutch Dream Theater
fanclub. Last issue they were talking about "special CD's"... I think
this is an excellent time to join "ToD" if you're Dutch, love Dream
Theater and don't wanna miss out on anything cool.
Also, I'd still like to receive birthdays from Freaks and/or Ytsejam
subscribers for my birthday calendars. You don't even have to include
your age, if you don't want to. Just enter your birthday in the little
form on the bottom of the calendar. Or just mail the info to my at
bredius@globalxs.nl (name/nick, birthday, email and homepage URL).
Also, if you're interested in chatting with fellow Ytsejammers on IRC,
check out my "IRC-The YtseNet"-page on how to get there. We really
need some *nice* people there, right now.
I also added a nice touch to my "Most Frequent Poster Lists"... From
now on it'll also have the total amount of lines everyone contributed,
along with a percentage of how much space they took up ! Right now the
amount of lines are only available on the MFP-lists for the Marillion
mailinglist (still testing and checking stuff). Don't forget to check
out the instructions if you want your *homepage* to be linked to the
MFP-lists. By the time you're reading this, there will be new MFP-lists
available.
Btw, you can still download my 256-color Marillion, Tori Amos and Dream
Theater icons. They're still there. Maybe I'll make some new ones, soon.
If you have any problems signing the guestbook, just drop everything
in an email and send it over :->
Just go to either one of the following URLs :
URL: http://www.prognosis.com/itchy
http://www.globalxs.nl/home/b/bredius/
If you check out my page, thanks ! I hope you like :->
NAME: Mark "Itchy" Bredius
_______________________________________________________itchy@dreamt.org__
All of us get lost in the darkness _ _____ ___ _ _ __ __
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars |`||_```_|/``_]|`]_[`|\`\_/`/
All of us do time in the gutter RUSH | | | | ( (_ | ___ | \_ /
Dreamers turn to look at the cars THE PASS |_| [_] \___]|_] [_| [__/
____________________________________________________bredius@globalxs.nl__
http://www.prognosis.com/itchy - http://www.globalxs.nl/home/b/bredius/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:43:16 PST
From: zayas@monroe.ny.frontiercomm.net
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: RE: Dream Theater New Song
Message-ID: <199701011900.OAA06019@ny.frontiercomm.net>
About two months ago, a friend of mine went to a press conference in NYC where DT was anouncing that they will be releasing a new album SOON. DT said that they wrote and recorded (probably on demo tapes) over 100 minutes of music. The record company, however, denied DT the opportunity to release a double album. So, that new DT song you heard on the radio was probably off of the demo tapes. Also, at this press conference, they played recorded versions of ALL their new material.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:30:32 -0500
From: Maraya007@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Response to a suicide note.
Message-ID: <970101143031_2087756732@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Erik doesn't want to kill himself. He wants someone to tell him not to. Why
the hell else would he post a suicide note to the YtseJam of a thousand
people (give or take a couple hundred depending on the season) instead of to
a few friends if all he wanted was to make sure "his side of hell didn't go
untold"?
This may sound cruel, but after a friend of mine shot himself three years ago
and another friend of mine tried to kill herself right before Thanksgiving, I
have absolutely no sympathy for people who commit suicide. Don't get me
wrong; I'm completely sympathetic to the situations that *produce* suicidal
feelings, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a cop-out and a burden on
everyone you leave behind: family, friends, etc.
Do you know what it's like to sit at a wake of a 16-yr old friend who shot
himself in the head and watch the hundreds of people mill about, asking each
other, "WHY?" Or to pace around in a dorm hall while you wait for news that
another friend is alive or dead after an OD on pills? I do. Believe me, I
do.
I've been in some pretty low times before, as I'm sure we all have, but I
have *never* so much as entertained the *thought* of killing myself. My
reasoning is this: when you hit bottom, the only way to go is up. You might
fall back in periodically, but you can always climb back out again. A bad
situation is temporary. Death is PERMANENT. Life can be pretty miserable,
but it's the only one I've got, so I think I'll stick with it for as long as
possible.
Erik is not a failure to himself for having been abandoned by his wife and
left with no money/job/food/etc. Shit happens, and I highly doubt anyone
(besides his wife) would think the less of him for that. I know I wouldn't.
Shit happens, and we muddle through as best we can.
He *will* be a failure if he kills himself, because it means he didn't have
the balls to TRY to get back on his feet again, and I *will* think the less
of him for that.
Jaime the Dragon
"Christ what have you done?!" Rush - "The Pass"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:33:18 -0500 (EST)
From: John McCabe <caber1@cris.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: JM 1st bass...
Message-ID: <199701011933.OAA07124@cliff.cris.com>
Does anyone know what kind of bass JM used on WDADU? The tone doesn't sound
like his Tung but it could just be the recording is horrible. Any info is..
hm.. helpful.. :)
John McCabe
caber1@cris.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:29:42 +0000
From: "Andrew Miller" <subtlerage@avalon.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: ignorance surrounding me...
Message-ID: <199701012029.UAA24783@avalon.net>
> He *will* be a failure if he kills himself, because it means he didn't have
> the balls to TRY to get back on his feet again, and I *will* think the less
> of him for that.
wow. so have you considered mental illness? do you feel that someone
with mental illness has "no balls"? someone with a diagnosed
mental illness is weak? your ignorance disgusts me. you've absolutely no
idea what you are saying. there are people that exist that are stricken
with illnesses that sometimes get the better of them and may cause them
to think something they may not normally think and take actions that
they may not normally take. they're sick. they need help. they don't need
your attitude.
i find this relevant because i'd go so far as to say that, imo, anyone that
attempts or seriously considers killing themselves is mentally ill. that's just
imo, of course, so i'll speak from fact; there are people, including myself,
that are stricken with mental illness. it ranges in form and
severity. i myself have manic depression. i'm still alive and have
managed to avoid death by my own hands, though i have attempted
suicide in the past more times than i can count on both hands. i
sure as hell wasn't thinking clearly at the time. i was finally
diagnosed with the disease and given medication and therapy, which i
believe have saved my life. i could very easily be dead right now.
the point i'm trying to make is that there are things that go on in
people's heads that you may not be aware of. this does not make them
weak nor does it make them less of a person than you.
you think you've hit low times? i've known people that hit
depressions so severe that they didn't eat or move out of bed for
days, often times soiling themselves in their own shit and piss.
it's not a pretty sight, and one which you should make yourself aware
of before passing judgement.
i agree that suicide is wrong and its not a good thing. but thoughts of
suicide need to be taken both seriously, and with compassion. those
people need help, not your holier than thou judgement.
-Andrew
p.s.- i know this subject was covered a few months back and i was
part of it at that time. i wanted to share this with the jam with
the hopes of possibly enlightening a few people who may not have
taken another point of view into consideration.
Andrew Miller - keyboardist/vocalist - subtlerage
http://www.avalon.net/~subtlerage - subtlerage@avalon.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:37:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Syrinx <syrinx@dreamt.org>
To: Yitz-say-jam <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: ...and this is what all have waited for...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD.3.91.970101152809.1975A-100000@astro.ocis.temple.edu>
..the results of the 1996 ytsepoll.
for lack of space, i'll just do the artist name. if you want titles of
albums, let me know.
1st = How many times artist was placed 1st.
Vts = How many times the artist was voted on.
Pts = Total # of points given to artist.
1st place vote = 5pts.
2nd place vote = 4pts, etc, etc.
ARTIST 1st Vts Pts
-----------------------------------------------------------
Rush 9 34 113
Steve Vai 7 23 82
Lemur Voice 3 18 60
Various - Working Man Tribute 4 19 53
Tool 3 16 51
Eric Johnson 2 13 45
Metallica 1 13 41
Yes 3 10 34
King's X 3 12 34
Type O Negative 2 10 33
Angra 4 8 33
Pantera 4 7 27
Tori Amos 3 7 27
Journey 3 8 23
Galactic Cowboys 2 8 20
Marillion 7 19
Trans-Siberian Orchestra 6 18
I Mother Earth 1 5 17
Dave Matthews Band 1 5 16
Amorphis 2 3 13
..and that's the top 20.
if anyone wants to have the full results of this on their
websight, i have in a ms-dos editor file. let me know, and i'll send it
to you.
i got close to 70 responces, and that's pretty damn cool. let's
make it even better for the 1997 poll!
(c) 1996 Happy Fun Ball, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jan 1997 16:24:36 CDT
From: Big.Swifty@twav.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: DTC? Hehehe
Message-ID: <199701012124.NAA26869@pawn.ax.com>
YT>From: jbrett@ultranet.com (Brett Lefebvre)
YT>Subject: A toast
YT>I just got on this list...and I must say it is awesome! I am shocked at how
YT>much you guys know on DT. Just by reading a few digests I think I doubled my
YT>DT knowledge.
And to think that the 'jam is supposedly 80-90% garbage! I'll drink to
that!
Happy new year, everyone:)
Mark Peters big.swifty@twav.com
____ _______ ___
| | ___| |___ _/ \_
_/ [] \_ ___| |#| |___ _/ [+] \_ _____+_____
/ [] \ | |#| |#| | / \ / .<_O_>. \
I==========I O=o=o=o=O=O=o=o=o=O I=I=I=I=I=I=I=I =============
| [] [] [] | |#|#|#|[] []|#|#|#| |+|+|+| |+|+|+| |++| | | |++|
| [] [] [] | | | | |[] []| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| [] __ [] | |#|#|#|[]_[]|#|#|#| |+|+|+| |+|+|+| |++| | | |++|
| / \ | |#|#|#|_|_|_|#|#|#| |+|+|+|_|+|+|+| |++|_|_|_|++|
|___|__|___| |_____/I_I_I\_____| |_____/I\_____| |__/H_H_H\__|
==============================================================
Brewton, Alabama - The stupid little town where I live....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 16:31:14 EST
From: edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2145
Message-ID: <19970101.163049.3190.0.EdWilk@juno.com>
>Can anyone recommend any other bands that are comparable to DT? I really
like
DT, but I need some new music with their style. I've heard that Fates
Warning
is good, but how about other ones?
Thanks,
Adam
Hey there Adam. I just picked up Shadow Gallery's CD (the one
they released in the U.S., at least) about a week ago, and that blew me
away. They are very progressive. They are a large band, about 6 guys, I
think (the drummer left after this CD), and they have great vocals. They
are a little.. "Softer" than DT in terms of solos, but there are still
some great guitar parts. The CD is titled 'Carved in Stone'. If you can
find it, definitely pick it up.
Then there's Savatage. They are also somewhat like DT, but
heavier. I love them. Again, I just picked up Handful of Rain about a
month ago, and wasn't too impressed the first listen or two (except for
the song Chance, which instantly became one of my top 5 songs of all
time), but now I can't stop listening! I love their vocalist, Zachary
Stevens. They are just awesome. And I also bought Dead Winter Dead,
their newest one, about a week ago. It's AWESOME. It's a rock opera, and
I can't put this one down either. So those are three CDs you'll
definitely want to get if you like DT.
Good luck!
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 16:55:21 -0500
From: Drummnstan@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Response to a suicide note.
Message-ID: <970101165520_1223434011@emout04.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 1/1/97 7:32:32 PM, you wrote:
<<o you know what it's like to sit at a wake of a 16-yr old friend who shot
himself in the head and watch the hundreds of people mill about, asking each
other, "WHY?" Or to pace around in a dorm hall while you wait for news that
another friend is alive or dead after an OD on pills? I do. Believe me, I
do.>>
yes, i had a friend slam his car into a tree at 55 mph, left a suicide note
on the fridge at home, yes, i had a cousin(close to jim at that) try to OD on
alot of pillstrust me i know the feelin, ive also been there myself
you also said:
Don't get me
wrong; I'm completely sympathetic to the situations that *produce* suicidal
feelings, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a cop-out and a burden on
everyone you leave behind: family, friends, etc.
have you ever been down that road of wanting the end?
And:
Death is PERMANENT. Life can be pretty miserable,
but it's the only one I've got, so I think I'll stick with it for as long as
possible.
yes and to some people that permanant feeling of death is better than that
temporary hell that they cant see an end to.
and theres more:
He *will* be a failure if he kills himself, because it means he didn't have
the balls to TRY to get back on his feet again, and I *will* think the less
of him for that.
who the hell made you the judge of wether or not someon is or isnt a failure
in life??? HUH?
and finally:
"Christ what have you done?!" Rush - "The Pass"
"Christ why did you write this?!" Drummnstan
laterz people,
stan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 16:55:17 EST
From: edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Eve & To Live Forever
Message-ID: <19970101.165439.3190.3.EdWilk@juno.com>
Hey,
I know this isn't on the FAQ, so I'm gonna ask . :) On what CDs
are Eve and To Live Forever on? I have TLF on the LiT video, but I only
have a small clip (.WAV) of Eve (which is my Windows startup. Hehe.), and
it sounds like a GREAT song. I would love to have both of these without
having to fastforward for 10 minutes or replay 30 seconds of Eve in
Windows 300 times. Thanks in advance...
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 16:55:17 EST
From: edwilk@juno.com (Edward J Wilk)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: 'Tage
Message-ID: <19970101.165439.3190.2.EdWilk@juno.com>
>Got Dead Winter Dead by Savatage. I must say that is one of the best
CD's
I've gotten in a long time...and I buy CD's ALL the time. I also have
Hall
of the Mountain King and TSO's Christmas Eve and Other Stories. Looks
like I
need to buy more Savatage albums...DWD is great!
It really is an awesome album. I bought it the other day. I
listened to it the first time, and was like, "Blah..". I'm listening to
it now. I can't stop listening to it. Someone, help me! :) Seriously,
though, I've become a big 'Tage fan. I just bought Handful of Rain about
a month ago, and that is also an AWSOME album. Where did you get TSO? I
can't find it anywhere. Obviously no one in the mall has it, and Newbury
Comics doesn't. :P Later,
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:08:33 -0500
From: Drummnstan@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Response to a suicide note. and someones cold heart
Message-ID: <970101170832_1256990404@emout01.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 1/1/97 9:58:32 PM, you wrote:
<<Don't get me
wrong; I'm completely sympathetic to the situations that *produce* suicidal
feelings, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a cop-out and a burden on
everyone you leave behind: family, friends, etc. >>
and OHHH yeah, ive been bed side of someone on suicide watch before they were
mentally ill or maybe somone of such a lofty stature as yours puts the
blinders on when it comes to that subject, IT DOES EXIST, and its due to
people like you that drive some mentally ill people toward the end, believe
me i have first hand experiance of what ignorance does to the mentally ill,
disturbed , and disabled. maybe next time you should think a little bit more
about the real life situations of others. and to the rest of the jam that
has shown support for this gentleman you are caring people. so as not to
ramble on, ill stop now hey RIPzero, at least he didn't go thru with it.
laterz,
stan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:12:50 -0500
From: Drummnstan@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Eve & To Live Forever
Message-ID: <970101171250_1411725159@emout13.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 1/1/97 10:08:59 PM, you wrote:
<<Hey,
I know this isn't on the FAQ, so I'm gonna ask . :) On what CDs
are Eve and To Live Forever on? I have TLF on the LiT video, but I only
have a small clip (.WAV) of Eve (which is my Windows startup. Hehe.), and
it sounds like a GREAT song. I would love to have both of these without
having to fastforward for 10 minutes or replay 30 seconds of Eve in
Windows 300 times. Thanks in advance...
>>
the singles you are looking for is LIE for To Live Forever(Which by the way
we finally concluded that to intro to TLF is not Another Hand/The Killing
Hand HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and The Silent Man for Eve..
i hope this helps you out , these songs are also available on bootlegs,
(Email me privatly to set up a trade) Good luck finding the singles
laterz,
stan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:04:22
From: BlackSax@gnn.com (Richard D. Slaughter)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2148
Message-ID: <199701012301.SAA05391@mail-e2b.gnn.com>
> Most importantly, Jesus loves you man!! He wouldn't want to see
> you
>go out like this. He still has plans for you and you need to know that
> what
Be careful with that. PLEASE, don't take offense at this reply, but I myself
have been in Mr. Stearns' position. At this time, I will not question the
right or wrong of God, but at that time, I did. I believed that God, if he
existed, had forsaken me. This does NOT reflect my opinion now, don't try to
talk me into believing. But someone made the mistake of trying to convince
me to go on with talk of Jesus' pure love, and God's plans for my future...
It almost pushed me over the edge I was standing too close to. Please
believe me when I say that (maybe not in this case, but definitely in mine)
for some, "The blood of Christ can't heal my wounds..." At least not the
immediate wounds. In other words, believing in God won't save them from
their tormnet. They have to believe in themselves. Once they are alive, I
have no problems with the spreading of any religion... I just don't feel
that when a man promises suicide, talk of God's love will help.
In any case, This is all IMO, and if you have a problem with it, I do
sincerely apologize. Thank you...
And Mr. Stearns, I feel that whatever disagreements, arguments, etc. the
Ytsejam faces, we are still somewhat of a family (of diverse backgrounds, of
course...) and I doubt there are any true jammers that wouldn't be willing
to help you... I know I would. Ask...
"I have given everything I could
And I don't think it really even matters
Maybe nothing does.
See how it keeps returning to remind me
That I want to remain
A child with you forever."
"If shame on such a scale is "truth," then I will gladly spend my days
in the universe of mere fact..." -Hashi Lebwohl
But not I...
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 2149
**************************
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