YTSEJAM digest 3287

From: ytsejam@ax.com
Date: Mon Nov 24 1997 - 18:06:44 EST

  • Next message: ytsejam@ax.com: "YTSEJAM digest 3289"

                                YTSEJAM Digest 3287

    Today's Topics:

      1) Re: More on overplaying..
     by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
      2) DC Show Tech Errors
     by Andrew Rittner <ADR93001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
      3) simple? / goosebumps
     by "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
      4) DT Chills
     by Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
      5) subtle complexity
     by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
      6) allow me to jump in...
     by "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
      7) UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Reviews
     by Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
      8) Atlanta shows
     by Eric Desobe <edesobe@emory.edu>
      9) DC show at the Bawlroom
     by Kevin Madden <kwmadden@pipeline.com>
     10) Overplaying - DT = Nirvana?
     by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
     11) Fates Tour Date.
     by Eric S P Barker <EBarker@NBCI.Net>
     12) Message *bounced*
     by "O/T-Track+ 2.66b" <"O/T-Track+=202.66b"@f854.n292.z2.fidonet.org>
     13) Re: Maturity...
     by Brian Hansen <bhansen1@leland.Stanford.EDU>

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Date: 24 Nov 97 12:31:48 -0800
    From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: More on overplaying..
    Message-ID: <199711242033.MAA26027@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>

    Pat writes:
    >If you have the ability to play a
    more complex part and that is what you think should go there, why simplify it?
     
    I agree completely.
     
    >I think "overplaying", particularly as it was used in the article, means
    more "difficult to listen to".
     
    Yes, but in addition people who judge music as "overplaying" often are
    including the negative connotation of "showing off." In my experience, that
    is how it has happened. See my previous post for my opinions on "overplaying"
    and whether it is truly possible. :)
     
    cheers,
    -Neil.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 15:20:58 EST
    From: Andrew Rittner <ADR93001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: DC Show Tech Errors
    Message-ID: <971124.153350.EST.ADR93001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

    ***
    The bad stuff:

    The sound. The Cap Ballroom pretty much sounds like crap anyway, but I
    think the soundman was asleep for most of the set - the mix was beyond
    awful for most of LiTS, and went screwy again at several spots during
    the set. Somehow, I don't think the band was too pleased either - they
    seemed to be having problems with the monitor mix. They came out kinda
    flat - the set didn't really get going until about "Scarred". JP's tech
    was nowhere to be seen when he broke a string during a solo - I'm
    zeroing on which song that was - and he had to go back behind the amps
    to get another guitar. Derek's keys were absent from the mix at times,
    and he lost power to his side of the stage for about a minute - during
    "Scarred", if I remember correctly - and could do nothing but sit there
    looking pissed. I think it may be time for the band to review the roadie
    situation - they don't seem to be doing to good of job. The band

    ***

    I can't vouch for the roadies personally, since I wasn't there. They might
    have had an off night I suppose. However, one of the tough things about
    touring small clubs like DT is doing is that they have a different set-up
    in each place they go to. I saw them twice on this tour, and in each
    place, they had a different sound board. Some of the stuff is the same,
    mostly the rack equiptment (meaning the sound guy's rack, not the
    musicians' racks. That stays the same, of course), but the lights, and
    often the sound equiptment, speakers, etc, is whatever the house has
    available. And if the house equiptment sucks, then the sound, of course,
    sucks. The sound tech was grumbling the entire time in Providence about
    the board (and the drunks putting their drinks on said board). It had
    buttons missing, and looked kind of messy. I asked him if it was DT's or
    not, and he mumbled that it was a house board.

    As a audio engineer type person (I'm actually about to graduate with a
    degree in it) I can say that DT's sound guy (the big guy with the long
    grey hair) REALLY knows what he's doing. He has kind of a surly attitude
    if you talk to him, but he's actually really cool. And being as far into
    the tour as they were, I doubt he'd start screwing up now. It's entirely
    possible that most or all of the problems described were caused by
    the crew's unfamiliarity with the house they were playing in. For example,
    the Providence show was nearly flawless, but the show at Toad's the next
    weekend was beseiged by tech errors. Like fires and stuff. It seems
    unlikely that the crew would actually get stupider as they went into the
    tour, unless DT is using regional crews, or worse, house crews (ewww...)

    Anyway, this isn't any sort of backlash, I just thought I'd speak up for
    my bros in backstage-land. It's a really rough job, especially when things
    start to get crazy. But that's also why it's so much fun!

    Thanks for listening, again.

    Andy Rittner
    adr93001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu
    http://www.connix.com/~rittner

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:43:00 -0500
    From: "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: simple? / goosebumps
    Message-ID: <199711242038.PAA01254@bertelsmanncis.com>

    hello all,

    from luke:
    >However it took one of DT?s simplest pieces of music from one of their
    >simplest songs - CIAW, right at 3:46 when that heavy, eerie, synth lead
    >instrumental section kicks in - to get me hooked. That small, dynamic

    simplest songs? i don't know about that... it just doesn't seem right,
    using the term "simple" to describe dt. 'course, i'm sure you were
    using it relatively, but still...

    ok, these dt goosebump moments. from falling into infinity, one has to
    be in hell's kitchen, at the beginning, when petrucci comes in with that
    wah-ish "bwaaah" before the drums kick in. very nice. and when the
    vocals first come in in new millennium, i'd say that counts too. take
    away my pain gets me, particularly with the context, even though kevin
    james isn't happy with it.

    from awake, the first chorus in lifting shadows come to mind, as does
    the sample something like "this is his toughest challenge yet, he's
    going to have to face it" in space dye vest--given the context, and what
    it meant in kevin's life. and in voices, the climactic "maybe i'm just
    cassandra..." section always does it.

    from images and words, when the band first kicks in altogether in
    surrounded. the whole "dust fills my eyes" verse of pull me under.
    intro to glass moon.

    from dream and day, whenever charlie stops singing. =) no actually, i
    really think his voice is adequate, and at times works well. seriously,
    only chills i get are at the beginning of ytsejam, just before the main
    riff begins. such a feeling of anticipation.

    thinking about it, actually, dream and day really is the only album
    without goosebump moments. maybe it's the production, maybe it's just
    that the music is... i dunno... immature? =) oof! actually, i'm only
    partly kidding. i mean, as over the top as that album is with
    instrumental virtuosity, maybe it's too over-the-top... not sure.

     --MATt

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:47:00 -0500
    From: Jeremy Kube <jkube@cyberportal.net>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: DT Chills
    Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971124154700.007c3b50@cyberport.cyberportal.net>

    My chills are:

    Hearing Surrounded.
    Hearing Eve
    Hearing Scarred...Live for the first time
    Hearing KJ hit those incredibly high notes in Lie.
    All of Learning to Live

    ------------------------------

    Date: 24 Nov 97 12:51:57 -0800
    From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: subtle complexity
    Message-ID: <199711242053.MAA29644@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>

    Isaac made an interesting comment:
    >As a guitarist I have always found JP's
    rhytm guitar parts as difficult as his solos. And FII is loaded with
    strong rhythm playing.
     
    This makes me think of something I noticed about FII. There is a lot of
    subtle, "hidden" complexity in the album. The first thing that springs to
    mind is "New Millenium." At first, the song doesn't kick your ass the way
    Metropolis would, but if you listen carefully there is A LOT of cool stuff
    going on "underneath."
     
    I'm not even going to touch the topic of maturity, but I'll go on record as
    saying the I&W is my favorite album ever and FII is a fantastic album which
    time will place in its spot in my DT "pecking order."
     
    cheers,
    -Neil.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:17:00 -0500
    From: "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: allow me to jump in...
    Message-ID: <199711242114.QAA06980@bertelsmanncis.com>

    hello all,

    from neil:
    >My point is this - If a person
    >records a song - let's say it's an instrumental shrapnel disc filled
    with
    >crazy soloing - then there is a reason that person played the way they
    did on
    >record.

    the point of this eludes me. i don't believe the question is
    rationality--the question isn't whether a person writes a song with a
    reason or not, the issue seems to be whether that reason was a good one.
    lots of bad songs can come together because the reasoning behind writing
    it or its parts are bad, i would think.

    >I think it is rare that someone thinks "I'm going to
    >play really fast on this record to try to impress people with my
    playing".

    i am really not too sure about this. there's no way to prove this
    either way, of course, but i would be willing to say that there are
    probably quite a few musicans who do get so caught up in the technical
    aspects of their work, the "impressive" parts, that they do lose touch
    with the emotional impact of the song. while they may not have to
    consciously think, "boy will this impress them!," they would be equally
    guilty of losing touch with the song merely by losing the emotional
    impact in technical prowess.

    >You'll notice,
    >however, that no guitarist is ever accused of overusing one aspect of
    their
    >ability: the ability to play slowly. I could argue (with the same
    dubious
    >effectiveness) that most musicians out there are constantly
    "Underplaying", be
    >it the result of a lack of talent or of a conscious desire.

    although the phrasing rarely matches what you describe, i do think that
    often, when we hear bands like bush and oasis and are repulsed, this is
    the thought in mind. that is, what i am listening too is severly
    limited, and i do not like it because the musicians either cannot move
    beyond underplaying, or choose not too.

    >If we think of a song as a fast moving, exciting, non-repeating piece
    of music
    >that constantly tugs at the ear, with disparate parts vying for your
    >attention, then this fast playing would perfectly serve "the song" and
    slow
    >playing would detract from it (hence "underplaying"). It is merely the
    notion
    >of what a "song" should be that elicits the charge of "overplaying."
    It is my
    >point that we should think about expanding on what we believe to be a
    "song".

    to me, this is almost like the "nature/nurture" issue in psychology. do
    we expect a song to be a "song" simply because it's what we're used to,
    or did the notion of "song" arise and persist because it is what
    naturally appeals to us? this is another point that can't be proven
    decisively, but if it is the former, then we are right to push the
    boundaries of "song," while if it is the latter, then our efforts are
    unnatural and in vain.

    >I would say no. There is a reason somebody played that blazing riff in
    the
    >first place - caught up in the music, an intense feeling or sensation
    came
    >over this person, whatever. The same reason is why it is appropriate
    in the
    >song.

    again, though, simply because there is a reason does not make that
    reason good. i may be struck for many different reasons to write a
    certain part of a song, only to have it realized afterwards that the
    part is horrible. that is the songwriting process, after all. consider
    how kevin james feels about take away my pain--they had a reason for him
    to sing it emotionally detached, but in retrospect, he now realizes that
    he shouldn't have followed that reason. it was bad reasoning. that
    "blazing riff" you speak of could be bad reasoning as well.

    this is turning into a very interesting discussion...

     --MATt

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:32:24 +1000
    From: Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Reviews
    Message-ID: <4A256559.007AA34A.00@nschq-e-navy.navy.gov.au>

    >Rhapsody - Legendary Tales

    > Imagine mixing Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Symphony X
    >and Stratovarius - and then throwing away all the good bits: that's
    >Rhapsody.

    Add a bit of Manowar and Angra too, you get the BEST bits of all these
    bands and you
    have Rhapsody.

    >Everything is very predictable - time for a solo, yes,
    >here it comes, wank, wank, wank, now a bit of thrash/power stuff,
    >castrato wailing, add the Vivaldi bits lads, nearly forgot the
    >obligatory keyboard/guitar duelling (wank, wank, wank), bring on
    >the vocal harmonies, catch your breath while the orchestral keys
    >are playing before building up to the biggest wankfest since
    >Pamela Anderson got her jugs out in Baywatch.

    Wankfest ? You've surely got to be joking ?
    It is the exact opposite for me, one of the things I like about Rahpasody
    is
    that you don't know what will come next.

    >I even forced
    >myself to listen to the whole balls-aching procedure a second time
    >just to see if it was really as bad as I thought - it was. For quite
    >some time I've been looking for something to stand my coffee cup
    >on at work, and this CD will make an excellent saucer. There are
    >obviously some people with technical ability on this album, but the
    >music is about as warm as a witch's tit in winter. I even prefer
    >Charlie Dominici to this singer, and that's saying a lot. 2/10.

    In my book the allbum is as close to perfection as were gonna get.
    9.5/10 in my book, there is room for improvement, the next album will be
    a killer.
    It's seems that the review was based almost entirely on just one listen,
    how many
    times has your opinion changed after repeated hearing of an album ?
    Anyway IMNSFHO the album is brilliant, Neil your taste is in your ass mate
    :)
    Happy listening :)

    graham

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:30:17 -0500 (EST)
    From: Eric Desobe <edesobe@emory.edu>
    To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Atlanta shows
    Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.95.971124162951.-390857A-100000@edesobe.resnet.emory.edu>

    Anyone want to meet before or after the Atlanta show? Let me know.

    -Eric

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:41:27 -0500
    From: Kevin Madden <kwmadden@pipeline.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: DC show at the Bawlroom
    Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971124204127.006a6df4@pop.pipeline.com>

    And you thought I wasn't going to add in my few coins? Ha.

    The trip starts at about 6:30pm when Pat Daugherty, his wife,
    and his boozehound..er, I mean, driver pick up me up at a
    safe parking lot where I can leave my car for the night.
    Then it's onto 295 and DC, ho! We have no problem finding
    the "club" at all. Homes I offers to serve as our personal
    valet. Eh, no. Loooong line out front. I am thanking all
    ye gods that it isn't too cold. We wait. Out of the cold
    comes a scream, "Red Wings suck." Who could be such a moron
    as to yell that? Syrinx, I believe ;-) Still sore about the
    Flyers, I guess. I was thinking, "hey, someone is talking to
    ME!" We wait. A few cops drive by to give the illusion of
    safety in Crack-ville. Homes II staggers up, muttering to
    himself. The line goes. The guy at the door asks if "we plan
    on drinking." I guess so...if you insist. We go in.
    DT swag looks pretty low budget. My cash remains in my pocket.
    Faith No More blasts from the speakers. We walk by the bar, Merlo
    yells something, I wave, and keep going so I don't get lost.
    We station ourselves to the left of the soundboard. Drinks are
    consumed in large quantities by our driver. Great. We run
    into the dude running Power Mad. He admits he was stupid naming
    the festival that. He "forgot" about the band by the same name.
    *shrug* Some jammer who claims to be a lurker says something
    to Pat. "Who the fuck are you?" - the question unspoken ;-)
    Big Wreck comes on. Merlo and Sryinx are no where to be
    found (I see why if he was up front). Boy are BW derivitive.
    They had a bad attitude, too. As per normal, trees begin to
    sprout up in front of my sight lines. Tall pregnant chick,
    believe it or not. Stylish, happening dudes. Damnit, I left my
    cowboys boots and vest at home. It's Howard Stern! Gene Simmons,
    short and fat, crowds in behind. Oh, look, it's Mike from
    Division, with new bassist in tow. Our driver continues to pound.
    DT comes on. Sounds like crap. Not their fault. Jam sections rule.
    Labrie's shirt makes me laugh. Show over. Lounge version comes on.
    Ha ha. We leave. Homes III asks for an offering to the gods of
    unburglarized cars. Fuck him. He pile into the car. "I can drive,"
    says Mr. Driver. Uh-huh. We tempt fate and make it home. I turn on
    Sportscenter to see that Gus Frerotte is a bigger idiot than I
    ever dreamed.

    End of story.

    CD of the Day - Kamelot - Eternity

    Green Bay Packers - The Quest to Repeat - Detroit Red Wings
    9-3 15-6-4
    at Vikings vs Ottawa

    Kevin

    ------------------------------

    Date: 24 Nov 97 13:48:53 -0800
    From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Overplaying - DT = Nirvana?
    Message-ID: <199711242149.NAA06164@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>

    Chris P:
    >To say that you don't believe in
    overplaying or musical maturity, you'd have to be willing to say that
    every DT piece is equal, and that every Nirvana piece is equal
    to any DT piece.
     
    Not at all. You would have to be willing to say that neither the DT piece nor
    the Nirvana piece contains any "overplaying" or "underplaying." They simply
    contain "playing." You can still exercise a judgement concerning how much you
    enjoy the "playing", and in the Nirvana case I'd say "Not at all." :)
     
    cheers,
    -Neil.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:20:43 -0700
    From: Eric S P Barker <EBarker@NBCI.Net>
    To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Fates Tour Date.
    Message-ID: <01BCF8EC.88C1BDE0@Production1.NBCI.Net>

    ----------------------------

    All hello,

    Yes it looks like Fates Warning will be in Colorado Springs on Dec. 3, at
    Pure Energy.

    Later,
    Eric from Denver

    ----------------------

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 22:18:34 +0100
    From: "O/T-Track+ 2.66b" <"O/T-Track+=202.66b"@f854.n292.z2.fidonet.org>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Message *bounced*
    Message-ID: <2397842644@f854.n292.z2.ftn>

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        To: danajlovski peco @2:383/100
        Subj.: [part 3] YTSEJAM digest 3272
        Dated: 22 Nov 97 00:46:59
        [processed here: 22 Nov 97 22:18:34]

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    To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
    ]From: ytsejam@ax.com

     * Continuation 2 of a split message *

    Hanson, I'm sure that Hanson fans would feel that this would represent a
    "progression" from what they play now.

    2) As was pointed out at great length a couple of posts ago, "progressive"
    music does not at all imply change; rather it is a genre of music with a
    specific set of characteristics. Therefore, even if we could objectively
    define a "progression", the question of whether a given band is
    "progressive" would still be unanswered.

    I do think you have a point, as each of us has his own subjective
    definition of what a "progression" represents and therefore prefers bands
    that evolve in a certain direction. This is much too subjective to hang a
    definition of "progressive" music on, however.

    Mark McEuen
    mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu

    ------------------------------

    End of YTSEJAM Digest 3272
    **************************
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    @Via D'Bridge 1.58 2:292/854 11/22 22:03

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:48:38 -0800
    From: Brian Hansen <bhansen1@leland.Stanford.EDU>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: Maturity...
    Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971124144838.006ba148@bhansen1.pobox.stanford.edu>

    >Just like to once again throw my 2=A2 worth in. This time on the topic of
    >DT's maturity and all the talk of 'wank-fests' etc..

    >on I&W and AWAKE, it=92s the moods created by the music as a complete
    >product. Right now, APSOG is getting more time in my CD player than FII,
    >mostly because APSOG (yes, yes, IMHO of course) comes closer to
    >capturing the feelings and emotions similar to those evoked by AWAKE.

    >Luke.

    Luke, I tend to agree.

    I have been listening to FII since the day it came out, it's good, but it
    still hasn't "clicked" for me. On Awake and I&W, the keys add a mood, and
    often an additional theme to the songs. On FII, more often it seems the
    keys are just another instrument playing along with the song. Kind of like
    a second guitar player trading leads with JP. There's a dimension of the
    music that is missing. It's like the maximum number of concurrent themes
    has dropped from four to three.

    On APSOG, the keys have added a sweeping, majestic sound that Fates didn't
    have before. ;-) I have been into Fates since No Exit was released, but I
    think that APSOG is now my favorite Fates disc.=20

    IMHO, BH

    ------------------------------

    End of YTSEJAM Digest 3287
    **************************



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