YTSEJAM Digest 3289
Today's Topics:
1) Big Wreck
by michael.bradley@mail.cc.trincoll.edu (Michael Bradley)
2) BP does BS
by Eminense Grise <caber1@concentric.net>
3) Re: "The Song"
by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
4) more goosebumps
by Cassiano <geoimage@opus.com.br>
5) Re: DT in DC Review: Part 1 (no spoilers)
by "Brian J. Ketelsen" <bketelsen@earthlink.net>
6) music...
by "Emerson, Michael J." <memerson@mail.PWCG.com>
7) Re: DT in Philly!
by Syrinx <syrinx@astro.ocis.temple.edu>
8) FL shows
by Bobby Tufino <slime64@ibm.net>
9) More of my thoughts *
by someone@prognosis.com
10) New SE dates; Atlanta Ytse-gathering
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
11) Shred-Fast-Guitar * (Muahahaha)
by someone@prognosis.com
12) Christmas CD and Other Stories
by someone@prognosis.com
13) FW show Atl. Dec. 14th
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
14) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3283
by KyleTaraG@aol.com
15) Atlanta Gathering!
by Charlie Korch <korch@bellsouth.net>
16) Guitar tabs
by Leandro Beling <beling@amcham.com.br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:45:02 -0400
From: michael.bradley@mail.cc.trincoll.edu (Michael Bradley)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Big Wreck
Message-ID: <199711250042.TAA13321@mail.trincoll.edu>
Hey guys!
Despite the fact that I too found Big Wreck a little unoriginal (I saw then
at Toad's), I thought the lead singer/guitarist handled the somewhat
unfriendly crowd REALLY well. Instead of being insulted he just laughed it
off and kept going. Very professional.
ALSO, I have to give that guy credit for some really impressive
slide chops. I don't think I've ever seen slidey tapping licks like that
before. Very cool.
Let's all try to be cool to these guys when we see DT on tour. Those of us
who are in bands can appreciate how scary it would be to open for DT,
ESPECIALLY if we played in a band of a different style, like Big Wreck.
Just be thankful it's not PLEASURE CRUSH opening. That really was the
Darkest of Winters:)
Later all!
-Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:17:24 -0800
From: Eminense Grise <caber1@concentric.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: BP does BS
Message-ID: <347A5154.A1D@concentric.net>
Hi everyone,
> From: someone@prognosis.com
> Subject: Re: Stick on ToT??
> Sounds to me like whoever reviewed the album didn't listen to it.
What!?! Are you saying Karl Coryat didn't listen to FII? Haha, foolish
non Bass Player reader. Karl Coryat only reviews jazz records. Anything
less he just gives to the "other" reviewers. Except the spotlight
section(which FII appeared in) which he usually makes things up to talk
about how this album/bass player is the best thing to happen to the bass
world since ears.
John McCabe
------------------------------
Date: 24 Nov 97 17:29:18 -0800
From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: "The Song"
Message-ID: <199711250129.RAA05646@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>
MATt writes:
>to me, this is almost like the "nature/nurture" issue in psychology. do
we expect a song to be a "song" simply because it's what we're used to,
or did the notion of "song" arise and persist because it is what
naturally appeals to us?
Very interesting indeed. That's an excellent analogy. I would bet that
there's a little of both going on. [Opinion mode on] Sure, there is probably
some innate aspect of our appreciation for music that makes the formulaic
"song" concept appealing. It is easily graspable, it is familiar, we have
many examples to compare it with, we "understand" it upon first listen, etc.
It would be interesting, however, if we were constantly bombarded since birth
with "songs" that totally broke the mold (the "nurture" side of the debate).
I would guess that our concept of "song" would be radically different. If
every song had an ABCDE structure, with B and D being double-time restatements
of A and C with inverted melodies on different instruments (and TLF harmonies
:), then we'd have a new default concept of "song" but it would be a totally
different concept.
Another good point:
>consider
how kevin james feels about take away my pain--they had a reason for him
to sing it emotionally detached, but in retrospect, he now realizes that
he shouldn't have followed that reason.
OK, I'll expand my example a little. A guitarist records a blazingly fast
passage in the middle of a ballad as a result of some feeling or emotion. He
then listens to the recorded composition several times (either immediately or
later), and decides that he likes what he hears. Assuming the artist has a
decent amount of control over his work, then he has deemed everything on the
album to be "appropriate" in the context of the music. You can subjectively
label the solo as an example of "overplaying", but there are people out there
who may think, when the solo stops, "why did it stop when it had just started
picking up speed?" :). They might call it underplaying.
My point here is that calling a part "overplayed" is just a way of saying "I
think he should have played this part slower." It's a subjective opinion
about someone else's music, just like saying "I think he should have used a
12-string guitar tuned in open tuning and strummed one chord over and over
instead of playing the Metropolis middle section." It's a valid opinion, but
it's just another example of a subjective interpretation of someone else's
work. There's no "objective" way to say anything is "overplayed" (right,
Kuba?).
Ah well, here's what happens when you tread the grounds of irreconcilable
subjectivity :)..
cheers,
-Neil.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:27:25 -0200
From: Cassiano <geoimage@opus.com.br>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: more goosebumps
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971124212644.007b9b20@pop3.uol.com.br>
Goosebumps? Cool thread, I love it! Well, I'm only gonna mention my
favorite ones or it's gonna waste too much bandwith :). Here they are:
1. Only A Matter of Time: Ending of the song, after that line "...if
spirit's a sign, then it's only a matter of time." Gee, I have goose bumps
after that part until the end of that song :) ! I think I get that because
they join such a cool statement with a incredible melody...
2. Hollow Years: the chorus. Incredible, simple(?) melody.
Oh, and now my favorite ever: in the Fix for '96 shows, when the band ends
LTL and begin TDOW. Brrr!! :)
But then there's the last chorus in LSOAD (part after the line
"openlyyyyy!"), the cool, melodic solo in Erotomania, the outro of Scarred,
but I guess someone else already mentioned these, right?
Cheers,
Cassiano
geoimage@opus.com.br
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:24:39 -0700
From: "Brian J. Ketelsen" <bketelsen@earthlink.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: DT in DC Review: Part 1 (no spoilers)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971124182439.00910140@mail.earthlink.net>
>Derek lost power during Scarred, and wasn't happy about it, but it came back
>on in time for him to play what he had to play.
In the Colorado Springs show, JP lost power twice and James lost sound a
time or two. He gave the sound guy alot of crap... I wonder why the
frequent problems with sound/power. I've been to quite a few concerts and
never seen so many outages.
Brian K.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:25:56 -0500
From: "Emerson, Michael J." <memerson@mail.PWCG.com>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: music...
Message-ID: <71384B73B76AD0119FE900A024C9E09E2AE677@MAIL>
greetings, fellow jammers...
i'm kinda short on time now, but when i get back to work i promise to
report on my 'Dream' Theater weekend (for those of you who don't know, i
saw OFB on 11/21 at Tradewinds, 11/22 at Irving Plaza, and 11/23 at
Capitol Ballroom in DC (and i actually gave serious thought to trying to
get tickets to Jaxx in Springfield, VA tonight!)), but i digress...
does anybody know of any places in the DC / Northern VA area where i
could look for rarities / bootlegs / imports / hard-to-find stuff?
please respond to the 'jam ASAP, or E-mail me privately (i'm only in the
DC area until Wed. (11/26))!
thanx!
m.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:54:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Syrinx <syrinx@astro.ocis.temple.edu>
To: "Bruce D. Duesterhoeft" <bduesterhoeft@enter.net>
Subject: Re: DT in Philly!
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971124215333.30101A-100000@astro.ocis.temple.edu>
> Anybody out there (Syrinx?) going to conduct a preshow gathering?
If people are interested, i'll put one together, sure.
..this is what i get for asking Mike to play philly... :)
* * * * * * * *
e-mail: syrinx@dreamt.org / syrinx@mindspring.com
erotomania!: http://www.mindspring.com/~syrinx/
offical lemur voice homepage:
http://www.mindspring.com/~syrinx/lemur.htm
maintainer of the genesis frequently asked questions list:
http://www.mindspring.com/~syrinx/genesis/genesis-faq.htm
(c) 1997 Erotomania, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:28:50 -0500
From: Bobby Tufino <slime64@ibm.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: FL shows
Message-ID: <347A45F2.C5A0FD63@ibm.net>
Does anyone know ANYTHING about the FL shows? Ticketmaster doesn't know
jack shit, and the at least one of the clubs can't be contacted (they
have no listing for a Ritz in Tampa, FL). We called the record company,
and were told that the tour ends tomorrow...so either they're behind on
their info (which is pretty sad) or we southeastern USA fans are gonna
be REAL fucking disappointed. Any info would be appreciated, and it'd
be cool to post it, cause I know of a few FL fans that are also trying
to figure out what is going on. And about goosebumps...hmm...Met. I:
"Just keep my heart in your eyes and we'll stay aliiiiive..." and
definitely the keyboard, and then guitar, solos on Scarred...also the
line "My soul exposed, it calms me to know that I won't..." gets me
every fucking time. As well as the outro to the same tune (great
fucking song). And, of course, ACOS: "Innocence caressing me..." all
the way to "all my life's been drained of MEEEEE..."...actually fuck it,
the whole song. Here's to DT making it down here...and to Metropolis
pt. II coming out REAL fuckin soon!
Bobby (dripping with slime and ooze)
NP: Meshuggah - "None"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:17:11 +0000
From: someone@prognosis.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: More of my thoughts *
Message-ID: <199711250412.UAA16409@odin.ax.com>
I haven't gotten any negative commentsabout this thread, but if it's
annoying anyone (it's starting to stray from it's origins) I'm all
ears. I'm putting an * in the subject of any posts that are on this
topic, so you can avoid them if I annoy you. :)
> >like the new DT album. What, then makes one like the older
> >music and not the newer?
>
> UNDERplaying!
Argh! I do see the smiley, but tell me that's just a joke!
Neil:
> Not at all. You would have to be willing to say that neither the DT
> piece nor the Nirvana piece contains any "overplaying" or
> "underplaying." They simply contain "playing." You can still
> exercise a judgement concerning how much you enjoy the "playing",
> and in the Nirvana case I'd say "Not at all." :)
But what aspects are we talking about? The complexity of the music?
If you dislike Nirvana because it's too simple, then to you, they are
"UNDERplaying"... I don't see how to justify the existence of one
without the other.
> My point here is that calling a part "overplayed" is just a way of
> saying "I think he should have played this part slower." It's a
> subjective opinion
No, that's not it at all. I'm only about 8 BPM slower than
Petrucci in overall speed (I can clock 16ths at 200 BPM... I do not
have his aresenal though) so it's not about fast or slow. It's about
when a part starts to have a negative impact on a song. Of course
that's subjective.
But it's a valid discussion point, because just as people use the
term "Heavy," often they use "overplaying." A lot of people tend to
agree on the meanings of these songs. Obviously though, it's not
universal... otherwise I'd agree with the dude who said that FII has
too much guitar and drum overplaying.
> Pat writes:
> > If you have the ability to play a more complex part and that is
> > what you think should go there, why simplify it?
If you think it should go there, you should put it there. If the
listener thinks it sounds ridiculously out of place, I think it's his
right to judge for himself.
There are lots of (NON SELL OUT) reasons to simplify some parts. I
had a song that went: 7/8 4/4 9/8 4/4 17/8 4/4 (Repeat)... it sounded
cool to me, but I knew that the 17/8 measure was there just to sound
insane, and the song "flowed" better without it. Thus I removed it.
It's up to the musician to try to get the music to flow right
(whether that means smooth, or purposely choppy... or choppily
smooth, like T-Ride) and it's the listener's job to decide if he or
she did a good jub of it. In my opinion, anyways.
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:16:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: New SE dates; Atlanta Ytse-gathering
Message-ID: <199711250416.AA14090@crl3.crl.com>
ohboyohboyohboy..... I get to see DT in my own home town for the
first time ever. :) No more of this "what's a thousand miles,
lets hit the road" stuff, or let's-fly-when-we-can't-afford-it bit.
:)
Fate's Warning on the 14th, DT on the 16th. All that's lacking is
Ozric Tentacles, Superior and Angra. :)
Would everyone who wants to gather before and after the show here in
Atlanta please email me so I have some idea of the crowd to expect.
Also please email if you'd like crash space -- I'll have some
available -- and also if you'll need transportation.
I'll set up a quick page attached to mine below as soon as I have some
names confirmed. BigSwifty, can you make it from Ala.? Skadz, you
gonna fly down like you've been threatening to do? :)
I doubt the Masquerade will sell out, and doubt it will be all that
crowded. It is an all-ages show, so you can probably expect some
moshing and crowd-surfing (damnit). --Maybe. I'd like to arrange a
gathering by the venue at around soundcheck time, then maybe a break
for dinner in the area, then back to the venue. After the show (and
before) it probably won't be too hard to find the band by their bus as
well. (I have a Superior promo that's STILL calling Mike Portnoy's
name. :))
E-mail me, you Southern folks!
Quick entry in the "goosebumps" thread: the end of "Surrounded" on
LatM, which is soooo much better than the studio ending, with Kevin's
light embellishments on the keys.... Also the bootlg version (forget
which boot) where James has the audience sing the last part of
"Surrounded"....
-- +-- ...once the cloud that's raining ---+- Paul W. Cashman ---+ | over your head / disappears | vanyel@crl.com | | the noise that you hear | www.crl.com/~vanyel | +--is the crashing down of Hollow Years.... --+---- ICQ #4151223 -----+------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:17 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Shred-Fast-Guitar * (Muahahaha) Message-ID: <199711250438.UAA16627@odin.ax.com>
> The emotional thrill of a fast flurry of notes is just as valid as the > emotional thrill of the "perfect" held note (with a beautiful, barely > noticeable vibrato).
Hey, if I didn't believe in the virtue of shred, I wouldn't have bought all those Shrapnel discs in the first place, and I wouldn't practice at high speeds. Speed is best used, IMO, to add drama to phrases... if it's overused, or used wrong, it can have the opposite effect. Take Vai for example: He's not really that fast (picking... he's scary tapping!) but that speed lick in For the Love Of God sounds untouchable. It's because it was used in a particular context. George Bellas plays constant 16th and 32nd notes on his new Shrapnel album... it's a lot of fun to hear if you want to scare yourself, but as far as musical value? Hmmm.... I dunno.
> contemplative ballad. I think it is rare that someone thinks "I'm going to > play really fast on this record to try to impress people with my playing".
You MUST have missed out on the 80's! Were you in some temple in Tibet, seeking enlightenment? :) There are LOTS and LOTS of players who played fast for ONLY this reason! There are still guys doing it... I do it at times (i don't think I'd record any of it, but it's great for practice), Joe Stump does it... the problem is that the playing begins to sound like a technical exercise, and not like music. As my friend was recounting from his Berklee days, when he and a classmate were sitting in a dorm room, watching a Racer X video... his classmate stopped the video and said "I feel sorry for all the people in the crowd... they have to sit there and watch someone play scales all night." > People who frequently play fast are often accused of "showing off" or, more > politely, overusing one aspect of their ability: speed. You'll notice, > however, that no guitarist is ever accused of overusing one aspect of their > ability: the ability to play slowly.
"Nobody who CAN play fast ever said 'DUDE! SPEED SUCKS!'" - MICHAEL.ANGELO.
> of good guitarists who write great music who can't play fast - they play > slowly all the time and are not usually accused of playing "inappropriate" > parts. What is the difference between this person and a person who plays fast > all the time?
I don't agree... I know there are times when I have decided not to buy an album, because the player couldn't hold my attention when they got to the solo. There is nothing worse than a big build up that leads to a "nothing" solo. I have to believe, whether you admit it or not, that you've skipped albums for this same reason. It's why I dislike Drain STH... they rock, until they try to solo... if they left the solos out, I'd enjoy the music much more.
> >but were trying to fit the mood of the song, then might we be > >justified in saying it's overplaying? > > I would say no. There is a reason somebody played that blazing riff in the > first place - caught up in the music, an intense feeling or sensation came > over this person, whatever.
Or just trying to top everyone else. Come on, clearly this is a motive for some people's solos. Joe Stump was quoted by a friend as saying "My new album will make Cacophony look like Kindergarten."
> song. I'm making a circular argument here -
Circular arguments are rarely logically sound. Hume proved this with regards to logical empiricism. (Though I don't know if the term was coined yet by that point, or not).
> Now it is possible to say that the final mood of the song (which is a > subjective thing anyway) does not exactly match the band's intent, but > I believe this takes nothing away from the song or its effectiveness. I > would guess that many a great song was written this way, with a band > achieving something different than what they set out to achieve.
Sure songs have been written this way. And while the song may be great, you can stillsay the songwriter failed, in a way (though I wouldn't care, especially if I liked the song). But that doesn't address the point that overplaying brings up. The concern is that if you make a part of a song complex, just for the sake of being complex, you can damage the quality of your performance. If a songwriter has something great going on, and then adds something that you perceive as ridiculously out of place, I think it's valid for you to say he overplayed. Doesn't mean I'd agree with you or whatever.
> Knowing your musical tastes, I'm surprised you're taking the other side of > this discussion :). Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate. Looking forward to your > comments.
If you want to join me on Iparty, I'll be happy to show you some overplaying that I completely enjoy listening to. As for this discussion, though, I think that if we're the only two really debating in it, we should take it private. :) If anyone jumps in, we'll keep it here.
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:50:37 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Christmas CD and Other Stories Message-ID: <199711250446.UAA16757@odin.ax.com>
> If none of you remember, when Scott talked to Mike about the Christmas CD it > was made fairly sure that the unreleased FII tracks (raise the knife, WAYN, > etc...) will NOT be on the cd. Mike mentioned that he had been going > through over 30 hours of live DAT material. So, it kind of sounds like > we'll be getting 74 minutes of new live DT. But who knows. That's just > what we heard from the man himself.
Was it made clear that Mike was going through LIVE DAT material? I thought I heard that he was going through ADAT material (possibly someone miss-used the terminology). I sincerely doubt they'll put the FII songs on the cd, but perhaps demos of the tunes.. and remember, MP may just be fucking with us. I wouldn't put it past him. :)
> I happened to have the trusty old Jackson soloist out over in my > girlfriend's dorm room last night, when her roomate walked in. > Remembering that I play guitar, the roomate asked me how long I had > been playing. Then she asked me if it was easy to learn, and "how > long did it take you to learn to play?" > Am I the only one who thinks that's a really stupid question?
I bet it was just someone trying to make conversation. In her mind it may have been "What can I ask him... he's into music, and guitar... I'll bring up guitar playing!" I get that type of question all the time. I usually answer "That depends on you." If you love music, and love playing, you will succeed at it (perhaps not commercially...) If you practice the right things, you can be shredding in a year or so. If you don't, you won't. It's that simple. If people realized this, there would be fewer people quiting playing (and many not starting to play!)
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:49:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: FW show Atl. Dec. 14th Message-ID: <199711250449.AA14483@crl3.crl.com>
Forgot to mention that we're gathering a group of DT fans and assorted prog-heads for the Fates show here at the Outer Edge (it's a dive, folks) on the 14th. Once again, e-mail me if you'd like to join us for what promises to be an intimate evening with OOFB(fs). No other kind of evening is possible; the Outer Edge is....a petite club. Not value-added. Capacity-challenged. :)
OOFB(fs) = Our Other Favorite Band (for some) :)
-- +-- ...once the cloud that's raining ---+- Paul W. Cashman ---+ | over your head / disappears | vanyel@crl.com | | the noise that you hear | www.crl.com/~vanyel | +--is the crashing down of Hollow Years.... --+---- ICQ #4151223 -----+
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: KyleTaraG@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3283 Message-ID: <971125001124_1437006278@mrin39>
<< PS. Any word on Powermad in Baltimore. Such as when everyone is playing and where the hell Tall Cedars Hall is? Has anyone tried calling Global Connections? >>
Try calling : 410-426-7528 for more info. I personally can't wait for Powermad---Hope to see lots of Jammers there! This weekend-Nov. 28, 29, 30....3 days of Power/Progressive Metal bands!! -Kyle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:20:53 -0500 From: Charlie Korch <korch@bellsouth.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Atlanta Gathering! Message-ID: <347A6035.7FC0@bellsouth.net>
>>Anyone want to meet before or after the Atlanta show? Let me know.>>
I and about 5 to 10 others will be going to this show. Where is everyone meeting?
Charlie
PS Have tickets gone on sale yet?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:18:17 -0800 From: Leandro Beling <beling@amcham.com.br> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Guitar tabs Message-ID: <347AB3F9.1041@amcham.com.br>
Does anyone knows where I can get DT's tabs, besides the ones on the official web site. Mainly the FII tabs. Any information please let me know.
Thanks,
Leo BR Jammer (beling@amcham.com.br)
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3289 **************************
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