YTSEJAM Digest 3292
Today's Topics:
1) Re: More of my thoughts *
by someone@prognosis.com
2) ****Triumph****
by Eric S P Barker <EBarker@NBCI.Net>
3) Speed thrills
by "Mr. Matt" <MattG@apqc.org>
4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3290
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
5) About DT in Atlanta...
by "Vaughn, Brandon" <VAUGHNB@CHIPOLA.CC.FL.US>
6) Re: Drummers that rule
by "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
7) RE The Real Story behind Peruvian Skies
by "Brian J. Ketelsen" <bketelsen@earthlink.net>
8) SLC FW show
by "woot" <woot@crypted.com>
9) ballroom show
by Len Berkoski <lberkoski@mail.hst.nasa.gov>
10) Topic Guide: * (this means skip it if this bores you!)
by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
11) My last public word on overplaying *
by "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
12) re: reLOAD (NDTC)
by Lauzon.Gary@ic.gc.ca (Lauzon, Gary: IHAB)
13) RE to someone
by SchnepfB@aol.com
14) Powermad 1997
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:40:31 +0000
From: someone@prognosis.com
To: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
Subject: Re: More of my thoughts *
Message-ID: <199711251736.JAA25348@odin.ax.com>
> No, no, no. Yes, I dislike Nirvana primarily because it's too simple,
> but that's not related to overplaying or (heh, heh,) "underplaying". A
> piece of musice could be extremely complex without having a single beat of
> "shredding", or playing fast, or whatever you want to call it, and no one, not
> even that dumbass reviewer, would say that the musicians were overplaying.
Then we've reached an incommensurability with respect to the term
"overplaying," because no one has limitted the term to fast playing
or shredding. It's "excess." Too much shred is excess, and thus,
overplaying. Too many overdubs, too many harmonies, too many cymbals
hit at a time, too much double bass... these are overplaying, and
they're hardly objective.
As I see it, Nirvana is not playing complex enough music for you, so
musically, they're underplaying. A complex song has an upper bound
as well, where, beyond that point, some will consider the piece to be
overplayed. The more silly the song gets, the more people agree that
it's excessive.
> is LTL. Ok, granted, Nirvana still probably couldn't pull this song off, but
> compared to the rest of IaW, there is very little fast playing in this piece.
> Even someone who hated DT for their overplaying would be hard pressed to find
> where they overplayed in this one.
Anyone who hates DT "for their overplaying" is not being objective
in listening to the piece. It's not a matter of condemning each
individual song.... it's about calling it as you see it. There's no
consuming desire to label a song... I find it better to just listen,
and describe what you listen to.
> This isn't the best example, but my point is that the term "overplaying" as it
> was used by that reviewer,
But the reviewer was talking about FII, not I & W. Further, I
disagreed with his diagnosis, further demonstrating the subjectivity
in the matter.
> So it is perfectly valid for me to say that *I* personally dont' like
> Nirvana music because it's too simple, but not because they "underplay".
> Musical complexity and chops are theoretically unrelated, though in
> practice they seem to occur together quite a bit.
Overplaying, itself encompasses more than just shred... it extends
to "overdoing" parts of a song. And I find that in a well rounded
player, complexity and chops go hand in hand.
> hesitant to say that, though, and here's why. There is validity to what
> Chris said, that some guys do play fast just to show off. And perhaps this is
> the logical cutoff point at which we could say that they were overplaying.
This is the main point I was trying to make: That for several
reasons, it is valid at times to judge for yourself that a piece is
in excess. It's a personal decision, though, because some people
like to hear 90 notes per second, and some people like a song in 7/8
with 6 chord changes per measure. Be it that the composer is showing
off, or just has bad taste (in your opinion) I think it's valid for
you to use the term overplaying.
I'm hoping that is agreeable to everyone, and this thread can die
(And Metallica can live on! I'm getting goosebumps just THINKING
about it!)
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:38:07 -0700
From: Eric S P Barker <EBarker@NBCI.Net>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: ****Triumph****
Message-ID: <01BCF98E.387B2CC0@Production1.NBCI.Net>
---------
>>Could someone give me some opinions about the band called "Triumph"? Is
>>their music progressive?; what kind of music do they play?
>>Thank you very much!!
WOW I love Triumph. This is the other Three man band. I would call them Progressive. Unfortunately they called it quits in the late 80's.
I would suggest:
Thunder Seven
Allied Forces
Surveillance(spelled correctly ?) (I believe this is their last studio project)
Progression of Power
Sport of Kings (This one is main stream and did receive alot of radio play)
I have a couple others but can't remember the titles off hand.
Definitely check them out.
Eric from Denver
--------
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end
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:58:12 -0600
From: "Mr. Matt" <MattG@apqc.org>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Speed thrills
Message-ID: <01BCF999.6858E4E0.MattG@apqc.org>
Hi, all. This is my first post to the list, so please bear with me. :)
On the subject of speed-playing, a classic topic in groups of this nature
(i.e. bands/artists of exceptional musicianship):
It's always been my belief, for what it's worth, that speed is of great
importance in playing guitar. Why? Because if you think about it, I could
probably play anything that, say, Impellitteri could, just not at the same
tempo, right? :) But, obviously it goes beyond that. Being fast in and
of itself isn't what makes a musician a great musician. It's the ability
to play (or even not play) the "right" note at the "right" time. I say
"right" because, as always, "right" is a subjective term at best.
For guitarists, it's generally about phrasing (i.e. what you play and when
you play it). My all time favorite guitarist is Greg Howe. Now Greg can
play as fast as anybody I know of, but he is an incredible fusion guitarist
with a flawless technique. Close examination of his playing (or any good
guitarist) will surely show a wide variety of skills at work in any given
solo only one of which is usually pretty fast playing.
It's another skill, another tool used to get your musical point across,
which ultimately says something about you. Just like no two people talk
exactly the same way, everyone speaks with a different inflection, a
different accent, at a different pitch, etc. etc. It's usually easy to
tell which people are trying to say something to you that touches you as
opposed to someone who's obviously trying to whack in your face just
because he can - that reminds me, is Vinnie Vincent still around? :)
In other words, give your money to the people who touch you. ;)
That's what I think. Now let's get back to jamming.
----------------------------------------
Matt Gonzales
AKA "Mr. Matt"
AKA "Genghis"
MattG@apqc.org
Any philosophical differences can be settled in a Deathmatch at your
convenience.
----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:58:55 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3290
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971125123521.87288A-100000@elk.uvm.edu>
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 ytsejam@ax.com wrote:
> I have a problem. Does anyone know if the hard rock (?) band Danger
> Danger still exists?
Danger Danger is very much alive and well. Here's their history is a
nutshell: after putting out two albums w/ singer Ted Poley (self-titled
and "Screw It" respectively) the band went into the studio to record
"Cockroach." But soon Ted Poley then left the band to
form Bone Machine (who rock, btw). The band recruited Paul Laine into the
fold and he ended up resinging the tunes on Cockroach, but the album was
shelved and the band ended up being dropped/left by Epic. Guitarist Andy
Timmons then decided to pursue solo and session work and keyboardist Kasey
Smith left as well (not sure if he played on "Cockroach" or not) In any
case, drummer Steve West, bassist Bruno Ravel and Paul Laine continued
on using the Danger Danger name as a trio and independently released
"Dawn," on which Ravel played both the bass and guitar tracks. That album,
IMHO, blows big tim except for two or three songs. It was a definite
departure from the pop-metal sound D2 usually put out. Very 90s and
very grunge. The band has now put out "Four The Hard Way" which boasts a
return to pop-metal, as well as four tracks from Cockroach. Keyboadist
Kasey Smith is back and I'm not sure if Timmons will return in a touring
capacity, but I hope so. So the album is almost like a reunion of the
original members except for the vocals. I've only heard one song so far
("Captain") and it easily blows away anything on "Dawn." As far as I know,
it is only available through Perris Records. Once I get some $$$ it will
be the first thing I buy.
Richie
P.S. I would have sent this privately, but I had to break up all the
Reload talk.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:59:39 -0600
From: "Vaughn, Brandon" <VAUGHNB@CHIPOLA.CC.FL.US>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: About DT in Atlanta...
Message-ID: <41303F74D60DD111B56500609778A79C076655@chipola.cc.fl.us>
I called up the Masquerade in Atlanta, and they told me the tickets for
DT will go on sale Saturday. Not sure what time. And she didn't know
how much they would be.
Now, just have to see if I'll be able to go or not.
Brandon Vaughn
vaughnb@chipola.cc.fl.us
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:03:54 -0400
From: "Charlie Korch"<ckorch@raleigh.ibm.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Drummers that rule
Message-ID: <8525655A.0062EB65.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM>
>>When did Roy Haynes play with Chick Corea, I know Gary Novak took over
from Dave Weckl, but I've not heard of this other guy.<<
Roy Haynes is one of the greatest old school drummers around. He has been
playing for a lot longer than most of us have been around. He is in the
same league as Elvin Jones, Art Blakey, etc. If you haven't heard him yet,
please do so, you shouldn't regret it.
Also, I believe that you are refering to Chick's Electrik Band. I don't
think that the Electrik Band is around anymore. The project that Roy is
now playing in, is with Chick, and possibly Dave Holland on Bass. I could
be mistaken.
Happy Drumming,
Charlie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:43:59 -0700
From: "Brian J. Ketelsen" <bketelsen@earthlink.net>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: RE The Real Story behind Peruvian Skies
Message-ID: <001201bcf9d2$180f3730$070325a6@csp03996.cs.mci.com>
OK, not everybody knew that, but thanks, we do now :-) I don't know how
many times I've searched the FAQ's, done full text searches of all the Jams
trying to find any reference to the story. HUMPH. FWIW PS is my fav song
on FII.
Brian K.
>>> Everybody knows the story behind Peruvian Skies about a girl who
is
abused by her father.
>> Big SNIP<<
How's that for Poor Vanessa !
Marcelo Martinelli
Monterrey , Mexico
<<<
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:22 -0700
From: "woot" <woot@crypted.com>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: SLC FW show
Message-ID: <01bcf9d2$fbdacc40$552746cf@sir>
well the fates show in Utah that i've been so stoked about going to for t=
he
last month is 21+ so it looks like I'm too immature to go. It's at the
Ichabob. anyone know how strict they are about carding people? I look wel=
l
over 21 (if i do say so myself) so i figure i might have a chance, but i
don't want to drive 8 hours in one night for a small shot at getting in.
private email please.
It rolls down stairs
It comes not in pairs
Runs over your neighbor's foot.
It's great for a snack
And fits on your back
It's woot! woot! woot!
woot=99 from Blammo!=AE
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:15:10 -0500
From: Len Berkoski <lberkoski@mail.hst.nasa.gov>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: ballroom show
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971125141510.009244e0@mail.hst.nasa.gov>
Does anybody have a song list of the unreleased tracks that were being
played before the DC show? They sounded awesome, and I'm still questioning
why some of those tracks were cut before several on the new album.
Thanks,
Len B
****************************************************************************
Leonard Berkoski III
Allied Signal, Scientific Instruments System Engineer
Hubble Space Telescope Project
Work Number: (301) 286-6949
Fax Number: (301) 286-1726
****************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: 25 Nov 97 10:04:33 -0800
From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Topic Guide: * (this means skip it if this bores you!)
Message-ID: <199711251918.LAA24334@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>
Chris P:
>But what aspects are we talking about? The complexity of the music?
A whole lot of subjective aspects. Even complexity is somewhat subjective -
it depends on your frame of reference. Someone who practices harmony and
voice leading exercises everday would probably not find the chord changes to
Erotomania very complex (but might be perplexed by a simple jazz progression).
Someone who plays strictly 12-bar blues probably would.
>it's not about fast or slow. It's about
when a part starts to have a negative impact on a song. Of course
that's subjective.
Then we agree :). My original point was that, first and foremost, the concept
of "song" should not be written in stone. Given that, which aspects of a song
are positive and which negative are too subjective for people to agree on, and
this includes whether a part is "overplayed." There will probably be parts
which MORE people think are "overplayed" than not, and this may be the type of
scenario you are referring to (like AnnaMania). But I feel that this does not
necessarily mean it IS overplayed, and that in this subjective realm the
concept of "overplayed" becomes nearly meaningless.
>But it's a valid discussion point
Hmm, yes I guess it is. We have proven that. Maybe my gripe is that it is
such a subjective discussion point that it doesn't belong in a magazine
review. In Kuba's objective robot-world, it would be different. :)
>I can clock 16ths at 200 BPM
I assume you mean in a straight alternate-picked exercise. Out of curosity,
are you playing 3 notes per string or 4? Scalar (diatonic) or strictly
pattern-based? Technique is such a varied, elusive thing. :)
>It's up to the musician to try to get the music to flow right
(whether that means smooth, or purposely choppy... or choppily
smooth, like T-Ride) and it's the listener's job to decide if he or
she did a good jub of it
Yes. Well said. That, of course, is part of the beauty of DT. Most people
don't know the "Surrounded" verses are in odd meter, because they just sound
so "right". I love that.
cheers,
-Neil.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Nov 97 10:39:03 -0800
From: "Neil Evans" <NEVANS@us.oracle.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: My last public word on overplaying *
Message-ID: <199711251925.LAA25308@mailseq4.us.oracle.com>
>>I think it is rare that someone thinks "I'm going to
>> play really fast on this record to try to impress people with my playing".
> You MUST have missed out on the 80's!
Well, let's look at it another way. Everyone who has put in the time and
sweat to be a fast player did so for a reason. They LIKE to play fast. They
like the way it sounds, the rush, the way it feels, etc. While I admit there
was a very "competitive" atmosphere to guitar playing in the 80s, I doubt
these guitarists recorded their fast parts, decided they HATED the way it
sounded, then made a conscious decision to leave it on the record anyway only
to try to impress people. More likely they liked the way it sounded and maybe
said "hey, all those practicing guitarists out there will like it too because
it's difficult to play." It's not so much a huge compromise as it is a
tendency to put more difficult passages on record for those who like to hear
it. My bottom line is that if the person who wrote and recorded the part
likes the way it sounds, leave it on there!
>the problem is that the
playing begins to sound like a technical exercise, and not like
music.
Hence, the challenge of the well-versed musician is to write interesting music
utilizing his/her technique. Have you heard the Spastic Ink disc? Jarzombek
wrote a song uzing just two notes - C and C#. I view the result of this work
as both a technical exercise in composition and a piece of music (being so
harmonically limited, you can imagine it is rhythmically intense). I can
appreciate it as both. Anyway, almost every fast lick is the result of a
technical exercise - you've practiced something repeatedly enough to be able
to play it that fast. I don't think you could visualize a complex guitar
pattern in your head and play it in 16ths at 200 BPM unless you had practiced
it a lot first!
>"Nobody who CAN play fast ever said 'DUDE! SPEED SUCKS!'"
Amen.
>There is nothing worse than a big build up that
leads to a "nothing" solo.
Well, it all depends what I'm listening for. I think Spock's Beard is one of
the best bands I've heard in a while, but the guitarist is not a very good
soloist. The music holds my attention - it's fantastic. When I want chops
I'll put the new Kotzen/Howe disc in :).
>Joe Stump was quoted by a friend as
saying "My new album will make Cacophony look like Kindergarten."
Yeah, but if the guy's got a shred of integrity he'll be trying to write
interesting music. And if it's interesting, I'll dig it. :) The DT guys have
said MetII will be "insane", "sick", etc. I won't accuse them of just doing
it to show off. It's a judgement of the music after it's written.
>Circular arguments are rarely logically sound.
Of course. My point was that we need to separate "mood of a song" from
"composer's intended mood". "Mood of a song" derives directly from the song
itself, which means all parts of it fit the mood by definition.
>If a songwriter has something great going on, and then
adds something that you perceive as ridiculously out of place, I
think it's valid for you to say he overplayed.
Here's the crux of the debate. I would just say he played something that
didn't appeal to me. "Over"playing to me implies that there is too much of
something - but too much of what? Too many notes per second? Too much
vibrato? Too many distorted pick slides down the neck :)? I prefer to just
say "that part does not appeal to me" instead of saying there is too much of
something.
This has been a great discussion, and I will now move further responses into
private email for the benefit of the Ytse and the Jam.
cheers,
-Neil.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:48:39 -0500
From: Lauzon.Gary@ic.gc.ca (Lauzon, Gary: IHAB)
To: ytsejam@ax.com ('DT')
Subject: re: reLOAD (NDTC)
Message-ID: <1997Nov25.140547.1255.1398994@msmail.ic.gc.ca>
>Well, I bought reLOAD last night and I have to say YES! this album ROCKS! I
>absolutely hated everything about LOAD, but reLOAD rocks. This album is a
>return to the feel of The Black Album. I really like almost every track
>off of this album..for once since The Black Album, I will recommend this to
>someone to purchase. This isn't a disappoint, though less heavy, it is
>more talented than most of Metallica's releases.
Thank you.. and I thought I was the only one with this opinion! To all of
you out there who don't like load.. but dig the black album.. buy this
album.. you shouldn't be dissapointed but like it says above... less heavy!
XaNaDu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:41:44 -0500 (EST)
From: SchnepfB@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: RE to someone
Message-ID: <971125144143_1880570231@mrin83.mail.aol.com>
Chris wrote:
<<<As for this discussion, though, I think that if we're the only two really
debating in it, we should take it private. :) If anyone jumps in, we'll
keep it here.<<<
Heh heh... why don't you continue your debate on the Parallels list..? There
haven't been any of those famous long Ptacek posts on it so far, and having
posted your entrance-menace you just went back to lurker mode... ;-D
Barbara
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:03:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Powermad 1997
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971125145434.1839F-100000@bdmserver>
This show is happening this upcoming weekend.
Hit the Powermad link at:
http://websnet.com/global/
for directions/location/band list.
I got a call from the guy running it and he comfirmed that they got my
check and are leaving a pass for me at the door. He gave me a
confirmation number. So if you sent in a check, call them and make sure
you get confirmation number.
Some other details.
It runs noon until 2am all 3 days (Fri, Sat, Sun-Nov 28-30).
On Friday though, some local _HEAVY_ bands will start at noon or so but
the real show starts sometime from 4-6 pm on Friday. It is an all ages
show. There will be a bar and catered food. And you get a free 2cd set
with songs from a bunch of the bands.
So what other jammers beside Madden and the guys in Division (who are
playing Friday) and myself are going to this? I'll be there all 3 days
although not the whole time afterall it is a holiday weekend and when you
are married you are forced to spend time with both families... I'll
probably wear a DT shirt every day (different ones though).
The cost of this event is $30 for all 3 days or $15 a day.
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com |
|===================================================================|
| Washington Redskins 6-5-1 |
| Upon the murder scene of a NY Yankee fan at Camden Yards: |
| "I didn't know that was illegal in Baltimore"-Munch on Homicide |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3292
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