YTSEJAM digest 3279

From: ytsejam@ax.com
Date: Sun Nov 23 1997 - 11:28:02 EST

  • Next message: ytsejam@ax.com: "YTSEJAM digest 3278"

                                YTSEJAM Digest 3279

    Today's Topics:

      1) loud hour
     by RASI2290@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
      2) Chaos Theory and goosebumps
     by Luke <slslb@winshop.com.au>
      3) irving plaza- my brain still hurts from the anus-tearing
     by Thrak75@aol.com
      4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3278
     by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
      5) Re: a goosebump moment
     by Madsag@aol.com
      6) re: goosebump moments
     by Matthew Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
      7) Cool DT Moments
     by Nigel Bridgeman <nigelb@powerup.com.au>
      8) Re: a goosebump moment
     by Derfelt@aol.com
      9) Re: Megadeth "Disintegrators" / Testament "Demonic"
     by dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
     10) Dutch Progressive Rock Page
     by Ed Sander <lush.attic@consunet.nl>
     11) DTIFC ???
     by Robert Rivers <gehrig4@seacoast.com>
     12) A Mature Cart Gets Creative
     by Eminense Grise <caber1@concentric.net>
     13) BMS in Tucson...
     by Michael_R_Kizer@csc.com
     14) Goosebump Moments
     by "James Thorpe" <thirdhvn@community.net>

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:05:23 -0500 (EST)
    From: RASI2290@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: loud hour
    Message-ID: <01IQC12XHETE0002YI@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU>

    Hey! At least you guys get an *hour* to blast the tension off. When I was
    on campus, the rule was, if the RA can hear it from *right outside your
    closed door*, you're in trouble. And man, I would have liked to blast off
    some tension after some of those art "critiques".

    Move off campus.

    btw, I'm sure we discussed this before, but how long have you been playing
    oboe? I played the clarinet for...um, many years. It molded many parts of
    mylife until I went to college, and then I just pretty much dropped it. I
    have always liked other wind instruments, especially oboes(obi?).

    sssssssssssssssseeya
    josh
    rasi2290@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:10:15 +1000
    From: Luke <slslb@winshop.com.au>
    To: ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Chaos Theory and goosebumps
    Message-ID: <3477E4E7.1AE7@winshop.com.au>

    >I love that line in Peruvian Skies.

    >However, absolutely the most goose-bumpiest (if we are going to use the
    >goose-bump factor) section in all of Dream Theater is the "Whoah oh oh,
    >Whoah oh oh, WHOAH OH OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" part of Learning to
    >Live.

    >I shiver every time I listen to that song.

    I'll make another reference to Chaos Theory here. If you don't already
    have the mp3 of the demo from Dr.Mosh, then GET IT and listen to at
    about 00:36 - the bit with the real short, stabbing powerchords and
    there's this really sort of high-pitched, keyboard effect that sounds
    like a big bunch of psychotic cicadas just going f**ken crazy.

    Truly goosebumpish in a macabre kind of way.

    Another one that comes to mind once again is Celestial Haze by Lemur
    Voice. When the (to quote you), "OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" vocals also
    come in.....geez, goosebumps the size of basketballs.

    There's just so many 'goosebumpy' moments in this style of music.

    Until the eleventh hour calls....

    Luke.

    PS. Opeth - Under The Weeping Moon, when the NON DEATH VOCALS come in
    with at about 7:45 [bbrrrrrghhhh - who turned the f**ken airconditioning
    on ?]. Not to mention the accoustic guitar section 3:15 with the swirls
    over the top [bbrrrrrghhhh X 2].

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:50:37 -0500 (EST)
    From: Thrak75@aol.com
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: irving plaza- my brain still hurts from the anus-tearing
    Message-ID: <971123035037_-154717909@mrin58.mail.aol.com>

    so umm.....i went to see this band tonight. people kept yelling "dt". i think
    they were called "delirium tremens." i came yay close to trembling
    deliriously after the show (but maybe from the cold).

    irving plaza tonight had the most frightening band i've ever seen. i'm not
    going to bother with setlists and whatnot because someone else will probably
    beat me to it.

    but- they were incredible. all i can say is......make ANY effort to go see
    this band. GIVE HEAD if you have to (guys included).

    now the fun part- i had a very interesting experience at the irving plaza
    show, and i'd like to share it with you all....

    so there we were, listening and banging heads away to "pmu". yeah, it was
    great and all, and i kept waving my hands and "it" over my head to cheer.

    ....and then james took it.

    "it" is a large, black hell's angel's helmet which i've acquired along my
    journey. it's a fun fashion statement, and it protects me from injuries which
    i usually get from people moshing and kicking me in the head with docs. for a
    couple of minutes in "pmu", james labrie was running around with "it" nice
    and snug on his head (i really hope someone took a picture than can go up on
    a webpage). even nicer is that he gave it back to me- it made me a happy boy.
    he said something after the song, but my earplugs didn't let me hear what he
    said. nonetheless, it (and "it") made my night.

    after the show, i naturally hung out and met the boys (and those in the crew-
    a lovely bunch, especially the one who gave my girlfriend a paper towel so
    she could blow her nose). but the guys were so kind and willing to sign my
    contracts textbook after i begged them to "help me pass my 1st semester of
    law school." portnoy did a beautiful signature on page 420 (his birthdate),
    right over the decision in "bailey v. west". derek left a curious one on "his
    favorite number", 111. james signed over the section titled "alternatives to
    litigation", and petrucci (i think) signed the case i have to read for next
    week. that means i have to find myung's, the head roadie's, and the bouncer's
    signatures still.

    portnoy's baby is a cutie. myung gave me a weird look when i suggested he
    shave his head and grow a mustache a la tony levin (he also said that they'll
    probably get to "trial of tears' the second time they come around- sometime
    in '98). petrucci gave me also looked at me funny when i asked him to sign my
    book, but he graciously did, anyhows. derek might need a lawyer (*smirk*- if
    he remembers; you had to be there), and james was getting accosted by the
    "girls from sherbrooke who drove 3574385 miles and blew 400 hundred bucks
    just to get his autograph."

    some guy kept asking the band to sign his buttcheeks. i wonder if anyone got
    to it.

    all in all, it was an amazing night. glad i got to meet "mr. adam", and "ms.
    rachel" and "mr. ytsejim and friend whose name i forgot".

    so um, yeah, go see them. now. you will love it.

    "put your hands where my eyes can see!" -busta rhymes.
    ytsegoon (he with the now-legendary hat)

    ************************************************************************
    david y. kobayashi
    the new york law school
    thrak75@aol.com
    dkobayashi@nyls.edu

    "you have to learn how to change your instincts....or at least ignore them."
    -waiting for guffman
    ************************************************************************

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:35:04 -0500 (EST)
    From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
    To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3278
    Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.971123042826.47774B-100000@elk.uvm.edu>

    On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 ytsejam@ax.com wrote:

    > >Question: If You Had To Pick that One Part Of That One DT Song That Always
    > >Makes You Cream, What Would You Pick?
    > >
    Too many choices....but I would have to say:

      In LSOAD, coming out of the instrumental section, right after Labrie
    hits that high note with "And she listens OOOOPPPEEENNNLLLLYYY" and the
    layered guitars kick in for the chorus. That's does for me everytime.

                                            Richie

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:55:25 -0500 (EST)
    From: Madsag@aol.com
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: a goosebump moment
    Message-ID: <971123045524_-1667341882@mrin44.mail.aol.com>

    >>Question: If You Had To Pick that One Part Of That One DT Song That Always
    Makes You Cream, What Would You Pick?<<

    excellent thread.

    ive been sitting here dwelling on that one for awhile, and the thing that
    keeps replaying in my mind over and over is from Another Day. the very first
    note petrucci plays in his solo. that makes me want to die. that made me
    say, oh yeah, skill AND musicality.

    the funk part at about 4:50 in UAGM. thats just tasty.

    vocal stuff i like best is usually in the backups. like in Metropolis
    "thousand wooooords" and all the layered stuff in HY is awesome, (i love that
    repeating guitar lick in the bridge a lot too.) also in TOT "its raining,
    raining" thats so cool. james im just totally happy with the way he sounds on
    the new album overall.

    basswise i just love the tapping part in the midst of the instrumental
    section of metropolis. also the beginning of LSOAD is just evil sounding.

    keys and kevin i love in WFS the chords he plays right at the end of the
    vocal line before it goes back into the intro part, and the way he ends that
    piece is gorgeous. and the way that comes back in during LTL. also with
    kevin, i just love his piano sound.

    keys and derek - in LITS all those jazzy little flourishes, and that
    gershwin-y sounding thing at 10:10. actually everything up to that point is
    cool as shit. he makes that whole song for me.

    mike - the beginning of 6:00, anything he does with that splash, and during
    TOT when james sings "nothing but ashes" the way mike goes into the next part
    is just SO cool.

    ok i have to stop now.

    ~melissa~
    madsag@aol.com

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:50:52 -0800 (PST)
    From: Matthew Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
    To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: re: goosebump moments
    Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971123023227.13708A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>

    Cool idea for a thread, btw... (just reiterating what everybody else
    has said! ^_^)

    Hrm... how about 3:05 into Met ("swimming in a lake of FIRE!") that shriek
    from the guitar hits me hard. ^_^

    I have a special connection to TTT (I read all of the Belgariad by David
    Eddings with this song on infinite repeat -- works well, and really adds
    to the story, especially around the fourth book! ^_^), but the
    bridge and the second chorus is the big point for me, because of the
    lyrics ("Life is no more assuring than love") Cool stuff, esp. the
    transition between the two parts (bridge to chorus), but I'm a sucker for
    epic!

    All of Prix-mo's speech in Vocices frys my goosebumps -- awesome part
    there.

    The last 1/4 of Hell's Kitchen (where it builds into the Faith no Moreish
    bassline) kicks my ass...

    On a more obscure note, John Arch's demo for Killing Hand, where Charlie
    used to mess it up ("I am the killing HAAAAAAND!"), Arch pulls of
    beautifully, *and* with an addition "power chord" harmony above it!
    Whoa... and I thought 1986 saw the best of his vocal range ^_^

    Fav DT moment -- on Antiquities, the live version of TTT -- since JLB
    doesn't have backing vocals, he asks the crowd to sing along on the
    chorus, by saying, "come on" after his main part. The "on" sounds so dang
    Canadian for some reason (^_-) Also, when JLB cracks up while singing --
    shows me how much fun he's having... I can just imagine JP or MP making
    some wisecrack face, or JLB looking at DS bellbottoms or something (I
    dunno if DS wore bellbottoms, I'm just using my imagination) fun stuff...

    There's more shiver material out there from DT, I just can't remember it
    all... ^_^ Ah well...

    I'll be back,
    As your guardian.

    --Matt

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    "..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:15:40 +1000
    From: Nigel Bridgeman <nigelb@powerup.com.au>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Cool DT Moments
    Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971123211540.006d45e8@powerup.com.au>

    Hi

    I'd like to say 'Goosebump-inducing DT moments' instead of 'cool DT
    moments' but I don't get goosebumps when listening to DT so it'd be pretty
    stoopid to say that I did. Yeah?

    Anyways...

    * The keys/guitar duet, then the keys solo, in "Take the Time".
    * The "Xanadu"-esque guitar bit near the end of "Learning to Live" (reminds
    me of "Xanadu", anyway).
    * "It's a shame no one is praying, cause these voices in my head keep
    saying 'love, just don't stare'..." - Voices
    * JP's solo in "Scarred".
    * The verses in the middle of "Lines in the Sand".
    * The extended ending of "Take the Time" on the Mind Control boot (and
    others, I assume).
    * Sam Neill speaking at the beginning of the Mind Control boot (and others,
    I assume) from "The Piano" (brilliant movie, btw - see it!).
    * "Eve"

    That's all I can think of at the moment. More than I thought there were...

    See yis

    Love, Spiff

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:14:50 -0500 (EST)
    From: Derfelt@aol.com
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: a goosebump moment
    Message-ID: <971123091449_-971732621@mrin41.mail.aol.com>

    A very definite goosebump moment for me is at the end of "Pull Me Under" when
    the synthesized strings and everything are going and James LaBrie's singing
    (very slowly, I might add) "Oh, this too, that solid flesh would melt" and
    then (at least on my CD) the song just cuts off and goes to "Another Day".
     Also on Images and Words, the very end of "Learning To Live" always hits me
    hard, with John Myung's bass still there right after everything else drops
    off, then the band goes along with him, and John Petrucci does some great
    harmony leads.

    As for Awake, it too is full of goosebump moments. The first, in my opinion,
    is on "Erotomania" when they do the theme to "The Silent Man", first by lead
    guitar, then the coda done by the whole band, then what seems to be the
    chorus theme to "Caught In A Web". That gets me every time. "Voices" is
    full of them, but my favorite is when, after being really quiet for a while,
    they rip into "Like a scream, but sort of silent, living out my
    nightmares...Voices repeating me." (I'm not exactly sure of the lyric the
    first time...it might be repeating, discussing, protecting, I'm not sure)
     The "Blood, heal me" part of "Scarred" always sends shivers down my spine.
     The part of "Space-Dye Vest" right before the vocals and guitar come back in
    never fails to move me.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:22:49 -0500 (EST)
    From: dantemm@erinet.com (Dan Temmesfeld)
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: Re: Megadeth "Disintegrators" / Testament "Demonic"
    Message-ID: <v01520d00b09da591b08c@[207.90.119.44]>

    >Hey all, I found something...kinda interesting on the thrash song "The
    >Disintegrators" off of Cryptic Writings. I didn't pick it up until I put
    >the headphones on last night and went to sleep to the CD. At 0:29 into the
    >song, you can clearly hear a voice saying "6-6-6" in the right speaker.
    >Anyone else hear this? I thought it was kinda interesting considering the
    >religious beliefs some of the members of MD have.

    hmmm... interesting.

    i understand what you're saying, but honestly, i bet they're just doing it
    as a joke. if you think about it "666" is made out far worse than people
    should make it out to be. some people don't even want that in their address,
    telephone number, license plate, etc... it's just a number.

    did anybody else think that the beginning of Testaments "Demonic" album was
    *really* cheesy? "10-9-8-7-6-6-6-..." i laughed the first time i heard it.
    "cheesy pseudo satanism" the name of the album is "demonic" but the song is
    "demonic refusal"... plus almost all of their lyrics are quite clean and
    non-evil... i think it's just window dressing to get the certain buyer
    interested... go figure.

    Dan

    ---+ +---
       Dan Temmesfeld - dantemm (at) erinet (dot) com
             Galactic Cowboys on the Web...muh!?
    http://www.cedarville.edu/student/s1133627/gcowboys.htm
    ---+ +---

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:20:06 -0800
    From: Ed Sander <lush.attic@consunet.nl>
    To: Freaks <freaks@ax.com>,
    Subject: Dutch Progressive Rock Page
    Message-ID: <3478AC16.254D@consunet.nl>

    Dear Progressive Rock fans !!

    After a period of a couple of months in which we could not guarantee
    being available on the Net the Dutch Progressive Rock Page has found a new
    home with it's own domain !

    It took some weeks to set-up the new site and re-design the main pages
    but most of it - at least the pages which are visited most regular - is
    ready to be viewed now.

    So, please be welcome at our new site:

    http://www.dprp.vuurwerk.nl/

    . and don't forget to bookmark it and throw away the old address.

    We would appreciate it if you could let us know what you think of the
    new site.

    We hope you like the new site as much as we do and hope your amazing
    previous support will not be damaged to much by the unreliability of the
    pages in last months.

    Finally, we would like to thank the people who made all of this possible;
    the folks at Internet Services Provider Vuurwerk (www.vuurwerk.nl).

    Best regards and hoping to hear from you soon,
    The DPRP Team

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:54:58 -0500
    From: Robert Rivers <gehrig4@seacoast.com>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: DTIFC ???
    Message-ID: <347843C2.2325@seacoast.com>

    Does anyone know if the latest edition of the fanzine [ Fall 97] has
    been sent yet?? because this would be my 4th issue and time to
    re-subscribe. Thanks
                                                             Rob

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:43:49 -0800
    From: Eminense Grise <caber1@concentric.net>
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: A Mature Cart Gets Creative
    Message-ID: <34787964.6168@concentric.net>

    Hi everyone,

    To be honest with you I haven't read the past 100 or so jams(well, a
    couple of them I did read). But this jam just blew my mind. Good job
    everyone. [applause] Now get back to work! ;)

    > From: The Phoenix <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
    > Subject: Revolution
    > This always bugs me for some reason. I just don't see why a song has to
    > be completely revolutionary to be good. I can see where they are coming
    > from to some extent, but I rather listen to a song that sounds cool to me
    > rather than something just because it's different than anything else.
    > Maybe I am just weird...

    Not to start a huge thread or anything... :)

    I usually condemn music I hear on the radio as boringly clone-ish. I
    prefer music that has some creative things going on in it(or new to me
    at least). I don't even mind if a song is an out-and-out copy of another
    band. If it's done well I'll probably like it. But when something does
    nothing creative or doesn't even sound good, I'll usually go pick up
    something like say WDADU and play it until my ears go numb! :)

    > From: "Scott/Curt Hansen" <curth@execpc.com>
    > Subject: more stuff that I found out Tuesday

    Okay, Hansons are a crappy band but the Hansen's posts are the best-est
    posts! :) Whoever you are keep posting. This was great.

    While reading about MP situation with Magna Carta I started to think.
    Does anyone know what other side bands Magna Carta has setup? Something
    like MP with Dimebag Darrell, would be really wacky. It seems the prog
    world is coming together to support itself. [side note: Interesting
    line-ups are abound in my head]

    > From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
    > Subject: Re: Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0)

    > Think about it, how many time have you kept on tinkering on a song, just
    > because it's too simple? It happens to me all the time...why not just let
    > inspiration guide you?

    But would you say that this works in reverse, too? Let's say I made
    something like Met Part 2 (yeah right :) and I broke it up into several
    songs. And all the songs had no relation to the other. Wouldn't I be
    immature?

    Of course, your last line leaves a pretty big door open, too. If you
    have a thought about making a song more complex couldn't it be
    considered inspiration? And if you didn't let inspiration guide you, you
    would be immature. Therefore for the sake of my maturity I had to write
    Met part 2!;-)

    John McCabe caber1@concentric.net

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:30:50 -0700
    From: Michael_R_Kizer@csc.com
    To: ytsejam@ax.com
    Subject: BMS in Tucson...
    Message-ID: <07256556.0080A19D.00@csc.com>

    Here's an interesting little snippet from our one and only "rock" station
    in tucson... This is from their official play list, it's interesting to see
    where DT falls in with the pack:

    96.1 KLPX Tucson Current Playlist
    Program Director - Larry Miles - lars@klpx.com
    Week Of: 11/17/97

    ARTIST TITLE PPW LABEL
    Sammy Hagar Both Sides Now (25) Track Factory/MCA
    Led Zeppelin The Girl I Love (25) Atlantic
    Kenny W Shepherd Slow Ride (24) Revolution
    Days Of The New Touch, Peel..Stand (24) Outpost/Geffen
    Kiss Jungle (18) Mercury
    John Mellencamp Without Expression (18) Mercury
    Metallica The Memory Remains (18) Elektra
    Mighty Joe Plum Live Through This (17) Atlantic
    Kula Shaker Hush (16) Columbia
    Corey Stevens Take It Back (16) Discovery
    The Wallflowers Three Marlenas (15) Interscope
    Rolling Stones Flip The Switch (14) Virgin
    AC/DC Dirty Eyes (13) Atlantic
    Rolling Stones Anybody Seen My... (13) Virgin
    Megadeth Almost Honest (13) Capitol
    Yes Open Your Eyes (12) Beyond
    Ozzy Back On Earth (10) Epic
    Matchbox 20 3am (10) Atlantic
    Dream Theater Burning My Soul ( 9) EastWest
    Matthew Ryan Guilty ( 8) A & M
    Live Rattlesnake ( 8) MCA

    I am assuming that PPW means plays per week, so sitting at 9, BMS is not
    doing too bad... This is also The majority of the songs that get played
    during the day and prime time... If you get an extra minute, email the
    program director and tell him that you really dig "That new Dream Theater
    song" they are playing, maybe they'll bump it up in the rotation.... :-)

    ~Mike

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:10:58 -0800
    From: "James Thorpe" <thirdhvn@community.net>
    To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
    Subject: Goosebump Moments
    Message-ID: <01bcf82a$6250ab20$fab15ecc@mpeywdzn>

    >
    >>However, absolutely the most goose-bumpiest (if we are going to use the
    >>goose-bump factor) section in all of Dream Theater is the "Whoah oh oh,
    >>Whoah oh oh, WHOAH OH OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" part of Learning to
    >>Live.
    >
    >>I shiver every time I listen to that song.

        hehe. Me too. The lyrics of 'Learning to Live' makes me shake
    my head everytime. It captures the essence of things I wish I could convey
    in lyric-writing.

        I remember when I first heard ACOS with Kevin I couldn't
    get enough of the tune. Also when I first bought Images and Words
    in late '92, I listened to it EVERYDAY for a year and a half. No joke!!
    I don't think any CD has matched that. Maybe 'Perpetual Burn' by
    Jason Becker.

        There's a ton of stuff on WDADU that's awesome. It's such a great
    CD. The ambience, chord progressions, keyboards patches, etc.
    Too many great moments.

        Its amazing how well written progressive music has so much staying power
    than your one hit wonder type bands. Its been 5 years and I still enjoy
    listening to the old stuff.

    >
    >I'll make another reference to Chaos Theory here. If you don't already
    >have the mp3 of the demo from Dr.Mosh, then GET IT and listen to at
    >about 00:36 - the bit with the real short, stabbing powerchords and
    >there's this really sort of high-pitched, keyboard effect that sounds
    >like a big bunch of psychotic cicadas just going f**ken crazy.
    >
    >Truly goosebumpish in a macabre kind of way.

        Yup. Its the songwriting of the band thats gonna make everyone
    go bonkers. Some people mentioned earlier about
    doing alot of technical things to "sort of" imply immaturity. Well, these
    guys do it in a way that comes off as good songwriting to me.
    It's the note choice and melodic content that makes it that way.
    You guys are gonna go nuts when you hear all the new stuff. :)

    peace,
    --james--
    thirdheaven studio

    ------------------------------

    End of YTSEJAM Digest 3279
    **************************



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