YTSEJAM Digest 3101
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Hmmmmmm
by The Phoenix <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
2) ACoS
by "Pedro Ordonez" <pedrord@quik.guate.com>
3) LA show on 12th or 11th
by Conrad Chi <uchic00@mcl.ucsb.edu>
4) DT here DT there..and other stuff
by Satu Reunanen <satu.reunanen@sci.fi>
5) Re: LA show on 12th or 11th
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3098
by Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com>
7) Re: ACoS
by ocean@caribe.net
8) unreleased songs
by Edward Polzin <polzin@uiuc.edu>
9) Majesty demos and other boots
by "Razvan Tudose" <rtudose@terminus.dnttm.ro>
10) re: music appreciation
by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
11) christian vander
by Chip Alexander <chips@eden.com>
12) that pantera intro
by Visker <jlvskr@dordt.edu>
13) TOUR DATES
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
14) Re: music appreciation
by CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:28:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: The Phoenix <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Hmmmmmm
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971012132036.9678B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Christopher Ptacek wrote:
> It's just a matter of how you were brought up, and what you find
> desirable in music.
EXACTLY! I started listening to music at a fairly young age because my
older siblings would watch MTV (back in the day where all they played was
videos). In second grade, all I did was watch MTV and write down stuff,
like the songs that made it to Dial-MTV or the top 100 of the year.
Anyway, all of this exposure eventually lead me to form my own opinion of
what a song should be and what I want to get out of music (which is
different for everybody). Then I started listening to DT which alterred
my definition of a song considerably at about the same time that my
tastes were changing from that of the mainstream. So there is really no
clear cut way to say why you like what you do (IMHO). You may be able to
list some reasons, but they are usually subjective. The reason I like
some songs are the very reasons others hate them. And when you come to
think about it, do we really want everyone to listen to the same music,
even if it is DT?
-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-
| Robert Taylor The world may seem flown away |
| rctaylor@uiuc.edu Almost as if it cannot be saved |
| The Phoenix Will we be able to rise |
| From these ashes we've sown |
-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-~-_-
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:23:26 +0000
From: "Pedro Ordonez" <pedrord@quik.guate.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: ACoS
Message-ID: <199710121924.NAA07945@mails.quik.guate.com>
Just a question:
How come Kevin did not play in ACoS??
***************************************************
* Pedro Ordonez *
* Guatemala *
* email: pedrord@quik.guate.com *
***************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Conrad Chi <uchic00@mcl.ucsb.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: LA show on 12th or 11th
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.971012121753.2617A-100000@mcl.ucsb.edu>
Today's la times lists the DT show on the 11th.
Last week's edition lists the show for the 12th.
You might want to call the House of Blues to make sure.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:30:43 +0200
From: Satu Reunanen <satu.reunanen@sci.fi>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: DT here DT there..and other stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971012203043.0068db00@mbox.sci.fi>
This world is spinning around me...man is my head spinning !
Just read 50 jams in a row..you guys are just too much !!
Anyway, where are all the finnish jammers ?? You are so quiet
and yet I know we had a REALLY great time last Friday when
we met Derek and Mike. I couldn't believe that I had a chance
to meet them again (I've met Mike twice and Derek three times,
back when he still was in Alice Cooper, he sure keeps changing
a lot every year !) and I was WAYYYYY happy for many hours after
the meeting with them. The only bad thing about it was that of
course I didn't remember half the stuff I was supposed to ask
from them..and I ended talking with Derek way too long and
didn't get a chance to talk with Mike but just a few words.
Oh well, I'm hoping to see DT in concert again next February
if I'm not in Morocco then..I'd kill myself if they came
here when I was abroad !! I still haven't developed my pix,
but I would like to know if anyone here would like to trade
pix ? I'd like to get more pix of the guys.
By the way, Derek and Mike were really nice and had the time
to talk to everyone and take pix with everyone there. It's
always great to notice that some bands still do this when
others just spit on their fans faces !
The last week was special otherwise too. I saw Fish live and
the show was really good. Fish would make a great stand-up
comedian ! Too bad I didn't get too meet him. This guy sure
has charisma ! And his lyrics are so great.
Other treats for us finnish jammers coming up: Stratovarius
and ELEGY (WHOAAA!!) together in Tavastia club..I have to get tix
tomorrow !I sure hope they (Elegy) won't cancel right before the show !
And next Saturday Amorphis. I can't even count how many times
I've seen them live, but I'll never get tired of their music !
I have yet to say my opinion about FII, but you've already said
most the stuff about it, so I'm just going to say that the songs
that first got my attention were AL and YNM..I think it's 'cos
they're the easiest songs on the cd. Now that I've listened to
the cd like 8 times I know I love each song from it ! But it
still ain't I&W..this cd is a real treasure.
And this reminds me from a conversation I had with my boyfriend:
it seems like people treasure the albums they first heard from
a band and the rest aren't that good anymore. I don't know your
opinion about this (I want to know what you think about this ok !)
but I think it's pretty much true. I mean, I first heard I&W
from DT and I think it's their greatest album. And the people
I know who heard Awake first, they think it's DT's best album.
And so on. I know lots of examples about this subject, but I won't
go on about it any longer. Have you noticed anything like this ?
It's pretty interesting to notice that DT has a song called
The wasteland (TOT). I wrote a poem with this title back in the
early '80's. Cool, hehe..
As for clubs, the age thing is a big problem. Here in Finland
they sometimes do this: seperate the youngsters from the people
who can buy alcohol. The older people can walk everywhere in the
club, but the younger ones can't go to the area where they sell
alcohol. They check out your ID's there. But this usually happens
when a show is changed into another club. I don't know what it is
with that, but I still think it just sucks that younger fans aren't
able to see the bands they love 'cos there's an age limit..
I remember when I was about 16 (9 years ago) and Phantom Blue
was coming to town..and I couldn't go 'cos you had to be 18 to
get in..I was so down about it, I wanted to see them so bad 'cos
I had heard so much about their guitarist and all. And me beeing
a female and the band beeing all female band was another thing
too.
And another thing that comes to mind about the age thing is, that
for the last few years we haven't had many big shows here. Most
of the shows have been in clubs where you have to be 18 to get in.
So I think the younger fans have missed so much here for the last
years. I sure am glad I'm 25 ! It was a real pain to be 17..
But someone should do something about this age problem. Younger
fans should have the possibility to see bands too !
And who said that doesn't understand what's good in small clubs ?
Personally I love small clubs. The reasons beeing:
-The bands sound better than in big arenas
-You have a more intimate feeling there beeing so close to the band
-You are able to take pix
-You have a good chance to meet the band before or after the show
-You're able to see the band better
Etc..
What got me into DT, it was Metropolis..I was so happy to hear
something different back then that had a lot of great ideas in it.
It just blew me away. That's how I got into progmetal.
Can't wait to hear Met.part II, when DT is actually able to record
it. Can't see when they have time for it though. And since they've
only played it once through..but I'm sure they'll have a surprise
for us hidden somewhere !
I've been too busy lately. This Friday I went to see No Doubt
(they sucked, sounds and the singing and all) and after that I had
to rush to another show..Paradise Lost/Sundown and a third band
I didn't see. PL was good as always, Sundown didn't do much for
me. Man I've never done anything like this before and I thought
I'd miss PL, but thank god (says an atheist..)they started really late !
Anyone else here running at two shows a night ?? Geesh...=)
I gotta end this novel here. I've been away from the jam too
long 'cos I'm writing this much..
Take care ya all !!
Satu
We are metalheads
We have class
Mess with us
We'll kick your ass !
(Wonder where I saw this one..)
PS: Was great to meet all those finnish jammers last Friday !
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:39:30 -0700
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: LA show on 12th or 11th
Message-ID: <199710121939.MAA05282@gms.gmsnet.com>
On the Eve of Destruction, Conrad Chi said:
>
>
> Today's la times lists the DT show on the 11th.
> Last week's edition lists the show for the 12th.
> You might want to call the House of Blues to make sure.
It's been moved to the 11th...
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:01:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3098 Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971012143506.21586B-100000@tundra.winternet.com>
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Matt Robbins-McDaniel wrote: > someone else wrote: > > This is a very interesting point. It seems that most people have a > > passion in their life. Something that they love to do and wouldn't give > > up for just about anything. It also seems that music is the passion of > > a large percentage of DT listeners [...] > > Comments regarding this post are welcome. > > These are all good points and they got me thinking, what are the life's > passions of jammers aside from music. Obviously, we're not all > musicians. [... I] listen to it with more interest than I do most > things, but I'm not a musician.
Well, I played tympani in high school & college band (or other percussion when someone else thought they needed a turn behind the kettles). So I've got some clue about music, but I don't know the theory (modes and such), and I couldn't tell someone's guitar tab from their bar tab. :) And, I haven't picked up the mallets in over three years... Still, I'm almost always either listening to music, or listening while doing something else.
> My other life's passion is aviation. [...] > I'm just curious, what are our life passions beyond DT and music?? Does > this interest anyone else??
Sure... as you say, it beats flame wars. Along with the obligatory music and computer/Internet fetish that we all share, I'm something of a medievalist, and a big role-playing freak. (Speaking of which, any groups in the Twin Cities need another D&D player?) Work-wise (since I know Matt is a pilot), I'm an EE doing logic design/simulation for Unisys.
--Jay "just wasting space, since the Vikes game is blacked out..." Omega --NP: Caravan - Canterbury Tales (The Best of Caravan) Disc 2
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:15:32 -0300 From: ocean@caribe.net To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: ACoS Message-ID: <344121D4.1003@caribe.net>
Pedro Ordonez wrote: > > Just a question: > > How come Kevin did not play in ACoS?? > > *************************************************** > * Pedro Ordonez * > * Guatemala * > * email: pedrord@quik.guate.com * > ***************************************************
im gonna answer this..even thou it must be in the faq
Kevin left after the completion of Awake, even before releasing it..i think.. so derek played the tour, then acos...IMO theres Derek in some of ACOS's parts..(keys)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1986 15:24:49 -0500 From: Edward Polzin <polzin@uiuc.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: unreleased songs Message-ID: <1F900711.E1C58178@uiuc.edu>
Can anybody point me in a direction where i can find the singles from FII that have non-album tracks? thanks.
Ed
bootlegs: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~polzin/boots/larr.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:44:00 +0300 From: "Razvan Tudose" <rtudose@terminus.dnttm.ro> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Majesty demos and other boots Message-ID: <199710122031.XAA13757@terminus.dnttm.ro>
This is for the italian jammer who wanted the Majesty demos : I've been trying to email you, but my mails keep bouncing back ! Mail me if ya want (rtudose@mail.dnttm.ro) and we'll arrange a trade ! ;)
Should I apologize now for the waste of bandwidth ? Naaaah :P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:52:32 -0400 From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: re: music appreciation Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971012165230.0068d378@mail.ici.net>
>But I really >believe that music becomes much more powerful when you understand it better. >Again, I am not talking about theory. I'm just talking about listening to >the music much more carefully than most people do.
I know it's not intentional, but you're still coming off as an elitist here. You're saying that fans of other music couldn't possibly be as "into" it because you listen to it better?
> Well, you can't really say that with certainty, the same way I can't >say that it's absolutely not true.
Well, *I* can. :)
To an extent, I find some of the note-by-note level analysis of DT's work that goes on in here almost amusingly ridiculous. A story to illustrate: As I've stated before, I didn't like I&W at first. Part of the reason was that I was expecting something heavier. The other part was that it reminded me of Perfect Symmetry by Fates Warning. I didn't like PS because I generally listened to simple stuff, and it threw odd time sigs and stuff like that at me that I didn't want to deal with (I'm a reformed musician: I *could* follow the complexities, I just didn't *want* to :)). I&W caused the same reaction, until I actually sat down and listened.
I still don't follow it as deeply as most. I know the time sig changes and polyrythyms and all that are there, I just don't bother analysing it. By your definition, does that mean I can't appreciate the music as much as you? (That's kind of a rhetorical question, I know).
>As far as CP's examples of people getting >really, really into rap, or women crying at Garth Brooks concerts, I have seen >that and I'm still not convinced.
Why not? What makes you question the motives and emotions of people you don't even know?
>As far as rap goes, I agree that >people can get very into it, but I think that's more of an aggression thing, >like metal, and that's just not what I'm talking about.
Aggression is just as much the manifestation of emotion as anything else. The fact that the emotion is negative means nothing.
Another flame-bait revelation: I like Kenny G. Granted, the music he creates is fairly simple (I've heard all the knocks, many of them on this list), but the man takes a semi-unorthodox playing style and uses it to create an immediately-identifiable sound. And when I get together with my SO with the lights dimmed and put in one of his CD's, there is a definite emotional response. :)
> Ok, I'm just pulling this all way out of my ass, and it's starting >to show. I don't want to argue this too much because I'm not really sure I'm >right... anyways I think this discussion has gotten to the point where we all >just have to admit that none of us can really know.
"I've had enough, and I WANT OUT!!!!"
"You can't walk away now....."
Seriously, don't drop out now. This is the most interesting discussion I've had in a long time. :)
_____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________ E-Mail: psull@ici.net WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html IRC: DDictator ICQ: 2049374 ______________________________________________________ There cannot be a crisis today; my schedule is already full.
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:51:11 -0500 From: Chip Alexander <chips@eden.com> To: ytseham <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: christian vander Message-ID: <3441383F.425D@eden.com>
I heard somewhere that this dude has a swimming pool with a drumset submerged in it that he practices on while wearing scuba gear. I'd almost be inclined to believe it from some of the shit he pulls off on that Magma Live album. -- Chip Alexander
http://www.eden.com/~chips chips@eden.com StckArnd@usa.net Kuhal on irc.dreamt.org
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:10:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Visker <jlvskr@dordt.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: that pantera intro Message-ID: <9710121610.aa07460@cc.dordt.edu>
I'm not sure if it has been posted yet, but that pantera intro that so many people seem to be interested in is called: "By Demons be Driven" and it's off their "Vulgar Display" album. I personally love that part of the drum solo...it shocked the piss out of me the first time I heard it, I'm like "no way...Pantera?" Hope that answers your question, Roger.
-Visker
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:27:57 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: TOUR DATES Message-ID: <199710122227.SAA26227@daffy.cs.wm.edu>
OK, as noted, this is *ALL* that is official. Don't e-mail me saying "But what about my town?" cause I don't know. All I know is what Mike told me. -d
------- Forwarded Message
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:56:50 -0400 (EDT) To: cmerlo@cs.wm.edu Subject: Re: Tour Dates
Chris, I know lots of dates are already flying around on the internet, but here is what has been CONFIRMED so far....There will obviously be more coming later in the week.
Friday Oct.17th - one-off WHJY gig (only 1 Hr. set) - Providence, R.I. Sat. Oct. 25th - Toad's Place - New Haven, Ct. Mon. Oct. 27th - Odeon - Cleveland, Oh. Tues. Oct. 28th - Al Rosa - Columbus, Oh. Wed. Oct. 29th - The Warehouse - Toronto, Ontario, Canada Thurs. Oct. 30th - St. Andrews Hall - Detroit, Mi. Sat. Nov. 1st - House of Blues - Chicago, Il. Sun. Nov. 2nd - First Avenue - Minneapolis, Mn. Mon. Nov. 3rd - The Rave - Milwaukee, Wi. Wed. Nov. 5th - Colorado Music Hall - Colorado Springs, Co. Thurs. Nov. 6th - Ogden Theater - Denver, Co. - --------TBA-------- Tues. Nov. 11th - House of Blues - Los Angeles, Ca.
Once again, these are all the CONFIRMED dates. There are many penciled in dates that should be confirmed this week. As soon as I have them, I'll send them out.
Support band on all US dates is "Big Wreck". Not Fates Warning or Spock's Beard as I was trying to arrange. (Political bullshit/favors between management and label........)
It looks like we will be squeezing in some unexpected select European dates at the beginning of December due to the great success the record is having over there. They will only be major cities, until we return in March or so for the Full European tour.
That's all for now....... Carpe Diem,
Mike Portnoy
------- End of Forwarded Message
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:46:38 -0400 (EDT) From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: music appreciation Message-ID: <01IOQ8ELB9MQ9OENVN@alma.edu>
>"I've had enough, and I WANT OUT!!!!" > >"You can't walk away now....." > >Seriously, don't drop out now. This is the most interesting discussion I've >had in a long time. :)
Well, if I must....
>I know it's not intentional, but you're still coming off as an elitist >here. You're saying that fans of other music couldn't possibly be as "into" >it because you listen to it better? Well, yeah, that is basically what I'm saying. When I speak of complexity in DT's music, I am not talking about key changes, time sigs, fast playing, or anything of the sort. I'm talking about compositional and thematic complexity, and that's the part of DT that really "gets me". It's no one moment in a song, it's how that moment fits in with the rest of the song. It's the revelation of discovering how something within the song makes sense in a way that I had never noticed before. This element just flat-out does not exist in most pop music, because it's the same 3-5 parts just repeated a few times.
>> Well, you can't really say that with certainty, the same way I can't >>say that it's absolutely not true. > > >Well, *I* can. :) > >To an extent, I find some of the note-by-note level analysis of DT's work >that goes on in here almost amusingly ridiculous.
And sometimes it is... but oftentimes it really helps to shed a new light on how the composition fits together. If you can't understand that, then maybe you're not getting all you could be out of DT either. I know how acidic that looks in print, like I'm saying I'm a better fan than you or something. I wish I could say it to your face so that I could make you understand that I don't mean it in a mean way at all... and I will say for like the 2000th time that of course, I can't possibly know. But it's the feeling that you're really understanding something that the composer was trying to say, not "say" in words or a spoken idea, but just in this abstract musical language, that I'm trying to get at. It's something that goes beyong an "emotional" musical experience. There really are no words for it because it's all musical; emotion is just the closest word I have for it. That's why I say Hollow Years is a disappointing song for me, because no matter how beautiful it is, it doesn't "say" anything to me, because it never goes anywhere. It's just a song; it's not a musical story. And most pop music is the same way.
>I still don't follow it as deeply as most. I know the time sig changes and >polyrythyms and all that are there, I just don't bother analysing it. By >your definition, does that mean I can't appreciate the music as much as >you? (That's kind of a rhetorical question, I know).
This is what makes me think that you're still missing my point. Time sigs and polyrythms are irrelevant to this discussion, at least as far as I'm concerned. Never would I suggest that a time sig change makes one piece of music "superior" to another. If you don't analyze the music to the point I do, then doesn't that mean that you don't appreciate it as much as I do? At least from a certain point of view? It depends on how you interpret the word "appreciate". That's one of the limitations of this discussion: we're using words to try to describe things that there really are no words for. There's really no more argument here to make... You say "just because I don't analyze the music, can I not appreciate it just as much?" Well, from my personal experience, I have to answer "no, you can't". Again, it depends on what type of analysis you're talking about. I'm not talking about a theory perspective. A person doesn't need to know the name of a single note, or know the first thing about anything even remotely theory related to "get" music the way I'm talking about. It's just a matter of thinking about it more.
>Why not? What makes you question the motives and emotions of people you >don't even know?
Well, this is where I do agree with you, Pat, and it's why I'm kind of afraid to have this discussion. Ultimately, everything I say basically amounts to a guess, but I feel that I have thought about it enough that I can be fairly objective. But I have to be careful not to come across sounding like a music Nazi who's own musical tastes are better than everyone elses. I truly do not think that way, and I realize that nothing I say can be taken as fact, as far as this particular discussion goes. (That's generally a good rule to go by whenever you're talking to me, though)
>Aggression is just as much the manifestation of emotion as anything else. >The fact that the emotion is negative means nothing.
This kind of brings me back to the point where we're using words that only apply in a limited way. "Emotion" is the best word I can come up with to describe what I'm talking about, but it's not entirely accurate. My point was that I get that kind of response out of certain types of music too. I occasionally still listen to Cowboys from Hell, even though I don't think it has a whole lot of artistic merit. It can definitely get the adrenaline flowing, and create alot of aggression in me. So in that sense, it is "emotional". But I would never put that album on the same level as I&W. And that's why I feel somewhat qualified to say all of these things: I believe (but of course I can't be certain) that I DO understand exactly what people get out of these other kinds of music. If I couldn't understand at all why anyone listens to rap, then I would have no place criticizing it, or even suggesting that I get more out of DT than someone gets out of rap. But it's because I do think that I "understand" that music that I feel qualified (that'snot really the right word, but...) to criticize it. I'm sounding like a music Nazi again, but I can't explain it any better.
> I should point out again that I would never say any of this, but for the fact that I've talked to alot of fans of this type of music, and I see no real passion for it. I'm not looking for a rap fan who can talk about what scale Dr. Dre bases a song on, I'm just looking for a rap fan who can really articulate that he's thought about the music at all... that he really gets anything out of it beyond a "beat" and the subject of the lyrics. And I haven'tfound one yet. I think that people who listen to rap listen to it for an entirely different reason than I listen to music... It's like the term "music" doesn't even apply the same way. That's not even a knock on rap, I'm just trying to say that the intitial purpose of the music is so vastly different to begin with that it almost seems silly to use the same term to apply to both. The difference is not merely stylistic, there is a fundamental difference in what the music sets out to accomplish and how it is percieved by the listener. I think. Holy shit this is long. -Clark
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3101 **************************
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