YTSEJAM Digest 2982
Today's Topics:
1) Talking to the guys backstage
by "Cassiano P. Barbosa" <geoimage@opus.com.br>
2) Re: Rudis/Morganstein CD review
by Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com>
3) DT turned down Rudess?
by George Bast <Gbast@Brickhouse.com>
4) woohooo!!!
by yzzy <yzzy@theonramp.net>
5) Where are you now/Anna lee
by JB <beamup@vt.edu>
6) lyrics
by JB <beamup@vt.edu>
7) The Gathering, etc.
by Jason Nixon <dumont@net-link.net>
8) TLF
by JB <beamup@vt.edu>
9) Re: CD burner question
by Geoff Stephens <bhawk@ibm.net>
10) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2980
by Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
11) Re: The Gathering, etc.
by Mike Jones <mgjones@mcs.net>
12) * Empty Tremor
by Didier Goidin <goidin@broca.inserm.fr>
13) Re: ENCHANT + JlB + SEVEN WONDERS + ???
by Jan Ziese <jzi@star-ag.ch>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:43:59 -0300
From: "Cassiano P. Barbosa" <geoimage@opus.com.br>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Talking to the guys backstage
Message-ID: <34204F1F.33FE@opus.com.br>
Hi, all!
Well, as Rogerio told you, we had the pleasure to meet some guys in DT,
after the ground-breaking , Friday night show. Our intent was (aside
from meeting, chatting and taking pictures with them ;)) to pass some
information and messages to you people on the list that are waiting for
the new album. Of course, we were a little bit disappointed with JLB,
but, anyway, it was just a moment. Here is my experience that I want to
share with you:
The first person we met was Derek. He was really cool, taking pictures
and showing his shoes to everyone. :) He told us his favorite new song
is "Lines In The Sand". "-Because I wrote the intro!" (laughs)
The next person that showed up was John Myung. He was also really nice
to all. It was amazing to meet one of my bass idols...
I remember one jammer saying that gave him a hug when meeting him, so I
finally got to do the same.:))
I asked JM could please give a message to everyone that signed the
petition and were helping DT to get more radio airplay. He said:
"-I'd like to thank them all for their patience and support... We've
really touched upon something special here with this record and it's
gonna be out real soon. Thanks for hanging in there with us."
Favorite JM new songs: "New Millenium" and "Trial of Tears". He didn't
had to think too much to answer this one. It's not that hard to guess
why, isn't it? (chapman stick, his lyrics, maybe?)
JP also was really nice.
About their visit in Brazil, he said: "-We had a great time in Brazil.
Awesome."
I asked him if he expected so much attention from so many people and he
said:
"-No... I think this is one of the best places we've ever played. We
never knew this was even a market for us, so now we'll come back here
all the time."
02Great!!
John P. doesn't have a favorite FII song. He said that each one touches
him in a different way, so he preferred not to choose a single one.
Well, the only time I got to speak to MP was in the autograph session,
and as I already said, he told me to say "hello" to all of you. :)
Richie wrote:
>P.S. To DT: please Take Away My Pain and release this as a b-side!!! Don't
>make me come after you :)
So I say: go after them! :)
Look what happened when I asked John Petrucci if they were going to
release WAYN as a b-side:
He said: - No...
Me: - Oh, c'mon John, it's one of my favorite new songs!
But then:
- No, no, sorry...
- I love that guitar solo!! (I start singing it)
- (laughs) Well, maybe in the future...
So, how 'bout a petition?? :)
Later!
Cassiano
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:09:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jay Omega <jw@winternet.com>
To: Just Words <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Rudis/Morganstein CD review
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970917225209.13430B-100000@tundra.winternet.com>
Damon didst say unto the masses:
> I just have to
> wonder though: are there any other keyboard-based prog rock bands besides
> Rudis/Morganstein, ELP, and Magellan? I am completely hooked on keyboard
> oriented music that is progressive. Somebody point me to more of this stuff.
Here we go...
One word: "Mastermind". The only band I think of as 'keyboard metal.'
"Cairo" on Magna Carta is sort of a heavy ELP. Lots of longish songs;
most of which could be shorter, however.
If you can find it, the British band "Shadowland" is awesome; it has Clive
Nolan on keys. Be careful; there's an American Gin-Blossoms-wannabe named
Shadowland, too. Get the album 'Ring of Roses.' Clive is also keys for
"IQ", "Pendragon", and "Arena", but they aren't keyboard-driven the way
Shadowland is. However, they're at least as key-ish as Magellan, so you
might like 'em all anyway.
Since you seem to be more for 'progressive' than 'metal', I'll recommend
National Health; they're a Canterbury-style group from the 70's. Again,
only keyboard-based, not all-keys like ELP. Don't start with 'Missing
Pieces' though; that's an album of out-takes and strange unreleased stuff.
The two disc 'Complete' is all three of their studio albums together.
If you like soft, minimalist stuff, try "Porcupine Tree".
If NH isn't trippy enough for you, try the "Ozric Tentacles". If it's
still to weak, go all out and try "Birdsongs of the Mesozoic".
If you know of the Progressive Megastore, and could get any one of these
bands, I'd say get "Shadowland". Not the progressive-est of the bunch,
but my personal fave.
--Jay "is now in the mood for lots of keys, too" Omega
--NP: Birdsongs of the Mesozoic - Pyroclastics
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:18:35 -0400
From: George Bast <Gbast@Brickhouse.com>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: DT turned down Rudess?
Message-ID: <20E3326156F6D011B44100A0240012E8047EDD@EXBERT.brickhouse.com>
>unbelieveable. I was listening to the CD and wonder why DT passed on
>Jordan as keyboardist, he can play faster than any musician I ever
heard.
>I would say he's the Steve Vai of the keyboard. I would love to see
Hey, I always thought that Rudess turned down DT in order to tour with
the Dixie Dregs. Not that it has any real importance right now. :)
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, I will agree that Rudess-Morgenstein are very talented, but
after seeing them live as opening acts on 3 separate occasions (twice
for DT, once last week for Marillion), I can say that they definitely
don't thrill me enough in their songwriting to buy their album. I guess
my prog has to have SOME vocals.
BTW, if you have the chance to see ELP in concert, go just to be blown
away by the wizardry of Keith Emerson. Wow!!
-george
gbast@brickhouse.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:42:33 -0500
From: yzzy <yzzy@theonramp.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: woohooo!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970917234233.007cc210@mail.theonramp.net>
i picked up my ordered copy of Shadow Gallery's "Carved In Stone" during my
lunch break today. i told the guys in Music Warehouse to go ahead and play
a few tracks while i shopped since they hadn't heard of Shadow Gallery
before. we were all impressed (to say the least ;-) SG rocks! thanx to
you jammers for posting the reviews for this cd. what a turn on!
while i was shopping, they called me over and handed me a cd in
appreciation of my business. they_gave_me the demo for "Falling Into
Infinity" *faint* i wud have taken it to local radio station, but,
they've already been playing it. *grin* so i've been playing it in the
store where i work so that people will stop and ask, "Who is that?" kewl!
then i get home late from work and WOW! the "Seven Wonders" cd arrived in
the mail today. my hat's off to ya, Ryan. you're the man! your cd
project has definately exceeded all expectations. if'n ya'll haven't
gotten a copy yet, do.
yzzy //Iz*zee//E*zee//E*ziz*ee//Y*z*z*y//Izzzzz
heh... i'm sure that Mike wud agree. *chuckle* cos i'll havta order some
of his cd's now.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:13:22 -0400
From: JB <beamup@vt.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Where are you now/Anna lee
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970918011322.007b6d90@mail.vt.edu>
>For those that have heard both songs, which would have rather seen on
>album? Personally, Where Are You Now fits better than Anna Lee, although
>both are catchy. AL sounds too much like the beatles and James voice is
>worth having Where Are You Know on the album. Take the time.
>
>-Eric
definitely "Where are you now"... would they have been able to fit it though?
"Anna Lee" is about 5:40 whereas "Where are you Now" is almost 9 minutes
when you throw in the intro (not heard on that .ra file unfortunately)...
what's the new time limit on cd's nowadays?..... Anyway, "Where are you Now"
*IS* one of the better unheard (or heard) DT songs IMO....
------
>> From: Brandon Vaughn <vaughn_b@chipola.cc.fl.us>
>> Subject: Fave new bands / four letter words (little DTC)
>>
>> Our own favorite band DT introduces their first on the new album,
>> using the word "shit." Please understand me. . . I'm not on some religious
>> or moral crusade, but I just hate for them to do this. [...]
>> I just think they could have come up with more interesting lyrics.
>
>so lyrics become boring and not interesting if a word that you
>categorize as "bad" or "vulgar" is used? no matter what context it used
>in? and is it also bad to use words that are used in daily conversation?
>I bet they use the words "the" and "and" in daily conversation too...it
>is so boring that they put them into the poetry, just to attract your
>attention...you should go listen to obituary or something if you've a
>problem with lyrics...
I must agree with brandon here... when a band uses vulgarities.. it comes
off more as 'street talk' and you don't focus too much on lyrics anymore...
you just nod your head and say "fuck yeah"... whereas when they have
interesting things to say, it focuses you more on the lyrics, and trying to
find what they mean to you...
"Find all you fucking need in your fucking mind, when you take the fucking
time"
really doesn't sound as eloquent, intuitive, and interesting as "find all
you need
in your mind, when you take the time"... Occasionally there's a good
usage, but
rarely (I can think of 2 or 3). Dream Theater is *not* rage music (one such
appropriate usage context)... Overall though, It usually makes one tune out
rather
than in... (rap being the exception)... I'm talking about *good* *music*
here... (uh-oh...
send in the flames) :)
Jason
---------------------------+++---------------------------------
notes from the desk of Virginia Tech
Jason Brindel Computer EngIneering
(540) 961-7262 & VT a cappella
beamup@vt.edu (JUXTAPOSITION)
www.vt.edu:10021/B/beamup www.vt.edu:10021/org/juxtap
FM 90.7 WUVT DJ (Tuesday mornings : 2-4am -- "The Dream Vault")
---------------------------+++----------------------------------
New Dream Theater CD, "Falling Into Infinity" releases Sept. 23!!!!!
---------------------------+++----------------------------------
"You took away my hero, will you take away my pain?
Take away my pain, let the cold inside,
it's time to let it rain .... .... I'm learning to survive,
without you in my life, till you come knocking at my door."
-Take away my Pain (Dream Theater)
---------------------------+++----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:17:58 -0400
From: JB <beamup@vt.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: lyrics
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970918011758.007c07d0@mail.vt.edu>
>Or the best yet, have them make a 50 minute song about social chaos with
>nothing but "vulgar" words. I can see it now. Dream Theater's new album:
>Social Chaos -- I. Fuck II. Shit III. Asshole IV. Damn (this is the
>ballad) V. Hell (this is the uptempo number) VI. Potpourri (all the other
>"good" words thrown into a 10-minute slam-your-face-to-the-ground grove
>with James' first rap).
*laughing*... and of course the bonus track... James LaBrie doing the
George Carlin
act on the "Seven words you can't say on".... a dream theater album... :)
Jason
---------------------------+++---------------------------------
notes from the desk of Virginia Tech
Jason Brindel Computer EngIneering
(540) 961-7262 & VT a cappella
beamup@vt.edu (JUXTAPOSITION)
www.vt.edu:10021/B/beamup www.vt.edu:10021/org/juxtap
---------------------------+++----------------------------------
*CD currently playing - "JUXTAPOSITION - Assume the Position"*
-=plug-=plug=- email me if you want one!! -=plug-=plug=-
ALBUM #2 Is currently In production!
---------------------------+++----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:20:05 -0400
From: Jason Nixon <dumont@net-link.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: The Gathering, etc.
Message-ID: <3420BA05.6DFE@net-link.net>
> Could someone describe me (personally if you think it is
> necessary, but maybe other 'jammers would also like to know) how does "The
> Gathering" sound?? I got interested since I've heard some comments such as
> "revolutionary, astounding etc".
Roger, The Gathering is just amazing man. They are from Holland and
they play some of the most beautiful music there is. They have a female
vocalist named Annekke Von Geirsbergen and she has THE best female voice
I have ever heard, just outdoing Sarah McLachlan and Tori Amos... It is
totally sung in the style of Sarah McLachlan though. The music is heavy
at times, but not death heavy, jsut distorted chords and awesome
keyboards, real progressive feeling... but not real technical at all...
just real majestic and totally emotional. The music is also light and
airy, real atmospheric and mood setting. The best word to describe
really would be "beautiful". The band consists of the aforementioned
vocalist, two great guitarists, an ever present keyboardist that jsut
accents the music perfectly and his solos are so cool, but again not
very technical just so well written and so "perfect", a bass player that
writes some very cool fills and extremely original bass parts... he is
very present too!, and a great drummer... again I will emphasize that
nothing they do is real TECHNICAL like DT, ANgra,or a lot of otther
bands mentioned on this list, but extremely creative and ingenious...
amazing songwriters... you never get sick of it!
Of course all this I am mentioning is since their "Mandylion"(1995)
album when they got the new female vocalist. Before then they had two
albums called "Always"(1991) and "Almost a Dance"(1993). On "ALways"
the vocals were kinda cookie monster and the music was VERY cool. That
album puts you like in a very folk-loreish mood... you can really tell
these guys are into Dungeons and Dragons and Magic:The Gathering and
stuff... although they got their name from the movie "Highlander". One
of the guitarists plays a flute on a few of the songs and some on a very
cool song, "Always..." (the song off the album). It is only a 2 and a
half minute piece but man is it emotional. All keyboards and just
phenomenal. This album is also more technical, a lot more, and
heavier. more and different keyboard sounds too. Not a good one to
start out with though. "Mandylion" is by far the first and best to
get. It is the band at their peak IMO. One of my favorite albums of
all time by any band. Every jammer should at least sample this or get a
recording of this album to hear it if they don't want to buy it.
"Almost a Dance" no one really likes too much, but it has its moments.
It is real guitar oriented but the song structure isn't all that great
and the singer is real bad (they got a new singer after "Always"). He
sounds like Mike Patton of FNM, but real whiny, like "The Real THing"
era Patton, but worse (not dissing Patton, he is amazing).
Recently, The Gathering released a new album (August 12) called
"Nighttime Birds", and it seriously competes with FII to be my fave of
the year. And if you don't believe me then jsut go and listen to the
full album for yourself. It is so good, every damn song... they have
not sold out ONE bit. THey have changed a little, but not even in a
commercial way. THat is what is so cool about bands like them, they are
on smaller labels and don't get too much pressure. Others, like Opeth,
Iced Earth, Strapping YL, Moonspell, etc. continue to make shit they
love and their fans love. well, whatever I won't even get into a stupid
label argument of "selling out" and shit so jsut disregard what I
said...
ANyhoo, that is basically everything you should know about "the
gathering". If you want to know more you can go to
http://huizen.dds.nl/~gatherin. That is the homepage.
Oh, and BTW, The drummer of THe gathering, Hans Rutten, actually stops
in the chat room frequently on the web page. It is java applet chat.
He is a current student and computer science major and is really cool.
In fact the whole band is going to school right now majoring in all the
smart things, cant think now...
oh well, sorry for all the NDTC... couldnt help it... I love The
Gathering too! :)
Jason (aka nixonburg)
PS... are there any chicago area jammers that listen to REBEL RADIO??
cuz if there are I am the NIXONBURG person that used to get mentioned
every once in while... If fact, JOEY DeMAIO of MANOWAR dissed me on the
air and said that he and the DJ(Scott Davidson) should tie me to a chair
and fuck my girlfriend in front of me... hehe, Manowar is such a joke...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:30:53 -0400
From: JB <beamup@vt.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: TLF
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970918013053.007bf6d0@mail.vt.edu>
>> A question I have that I have been meaning to ask for a while
>> now, I don't know if it has been asnswered before, so here goes. Am I
>> right in saying that TLF was recorded during the I & W album sessions ?
>> Since I got the 'Lie' CD single it has bugged my why the song wasn't
>> included on I & W, I think it would fit perfectly in between 'Metropolis'
>> and 'Under A Glass Moon', wadda you guys think ?
>
> Well, since I have James LaBrie audition Demo singing this song
>along with "Take the Time" and "Learning to Live", I think that it was
.written before the "Images and Words" sessions, but only recorded on
."Awake" sessions.
For some reason, in the back of my mind... I seem to remember Dominici
doing TLF at a concert once.... am I out of my mind or does someone else
out there remember a time when Charley did it? (Actually as I remember
I was most impressed with his version of it)... didn't care too much for
most charley things, but there were a few, and if TLF was done a few times
with him at the helm (as I seem to recall) that was one of 'em...
Charley would have still been better than Chris Crinton, John Achambault,
Steve Stone, or any of the numerous other fill-ins between Dominici and
LaBrie.... Charley I can tolerate (James I love), but when you listen to any
of the others, you just cringe, and think.... whaaa??? Why did DT give these
guys a shot with them on stage?.... Just my opinion... but as I said before,
sometimes it's scary what the "Second Best" is....
Jason
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:07:52 -0500
From: Geoff Stephens <bhawk@ibm.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: CD burner question
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970918000752.006bbcb8@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net>
I thought this might be of interest...
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CD-ROM drives please visit our web site at
http://www.idt-microsynergy.com/
At 07:06 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> A Jammer asked about CD burners. The best deals right now are the
>Yamaha and Teac 4x writers, both of which can be had for $600-700.
>
>- Mike Bahr - durnik@goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:36:51 +1000
From: Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2980
Message-ID: <l03020904b0466dba9072@[131.217.133.77]>
>I doubt very much if Sep 27th is the date for an aussie release of FII, why
>?
>It's a Saturday, how many new albums get released on that day ?
>Answer ? None
>Brash's are one of those chain stores that I despise greatly and they
>wouldn't know if their ass's were on fire, they don't know shit about any
>music cept top forty crap, take it with a grain of salt, anything that you
>heard from them mate !
>Utopia Records in Sydney have told me that they will have the US import on
>sale on the 23rd, with all things being well and good.
Well, I've since received two more dates from them: the 22nd, and the 28th!
(A sunday). They insist it will be a local release, which I have heard no
mention of anywhere else, although the release sheets fro the week of the
22nd won't come out until about next Wednesday.
My best bet is Brashs are indeed full of shit, but hey, maybe for once
they're right? I doubt it.
I've got a copy waiting for me at a local store who is simply doing an
express import from the USA. :-)
Seeya!
Chris Groves.
cdgroves@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:23:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike Jones <mgjones@mcs.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: The Gathering, etc.
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970918011208.28144A-100000@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>
Aye. I listen to Rebel every so often. I'm kinda guilty of not really
paying attention to the DJ's all the time, though, and their
advertisements are too damn long...hence quite often causing me to flip
in a tape or something. How often do you like cruising around the city in
your car with advertisements blaring out your window ;).
I haven't listened in the last week or so. Are they playing any DT yet?
(Do they even have any new DT yet?). I've called them and emailed them
asking for it.
On the same token as a few others: Current tape in car deck (that gets
thrown in during those rebel commercials) - Crimson Glory, Transcendence.
(one kick-ass album, IMHO)
-- Mike Jones, mgjones@mcs.net Web Design: mike@biggorilla.com _______________________________________________________________________ Progressive Genius The Progressive Metal Web Ring http://www.progmetal.org/ring Progressive Metal At Its Best!On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Jason Nixon wrote:
> PS... are there any chicago area jammers that listen to REBEL RADIO?? > cuz if there are I am the NIXONBURG person that used to get mentioned > every once in while... If fact, JOEY DeMAIO of MANOWAR dissed me on the > air and said that he and the DJ(Scott Davidson) should tie me to a chair > and fuck my girlfriend in front of me... hehe, Manowar is such a joke... > >
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:04:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Didier Goidin <goidin@broca.inserm.fr> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: * Empty Tremor Message-ID: <l03020900b0469ca2dc35@[193.49.126.157]>
As David, I've also listen to EMPTY TREMOR, I don't know if Apocolokyntosys is their first album but it's really good. If US (and others !) Ystejammers want discover some good european bands just listen to EMPTY TREMOR. Of course, the new VANDEN PLAS album is ...... *WOUAOUAHH*. But for this one, it seems that for the moment there is only a french release of this album ... "The God Thing" is out in france for now nearly 15 days, and what we can say is that is a real good success !
About others europeans bands, there are many in ITALY, David just a while about Rhapsody, Time Machine, Last Warning and so on ...
See You
didier
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 11:21:18 +0200 From: Jan Ziese <jzi@star-ag.ch> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: ENCHANT + JlB + SEVEN WONDERS + ??? Message-ID: <9709180921.AA22330@star2.star-ag.ch>
At 14:28 17.09.97 -0700, Eric Herrmann wrote: >Another thing, I was the first who talked to JlB attitude. I don't >want to start a fight between the Jammers but I just want to say that >Jlb said cleary that he wants DT to become the new Pink Floyd. >So look at the cover, listen to some music in FII, he is right. But I >like Pink floyd, and I LOVE DT because it 's not Pink Floyd, It's >completely different of all bands in the world. >If I want to listen to something close to PF (pink floyd), I just >listen PF!
Couldn't agree more. I don't like Pink Floyd too much, but I love Rush which was also discussed in that context. I love Dream Theater. But I definitely don't like the thought of DT trying to sound like PF or Rush. If they undergo a steady evolution which leads to the point that they sound a little bit like another band, that's OK. But I think it's a big mistake to say "We'd like to access the Pink Floyd/Rush market in the future, so let's try to sound more like these bands.". I don't know if JKLB or any other member of the band really wants to do so. So maybe this is just obsolete talk. Though, if it's true, there's a very dangerous tendency going on. They might not only fail to have success in getting their music through to the PF/Rush-fans, they also might lose their original fans, too.
I don't want DT to keep on doing the same things. I want them to change and to develop. But the change should come from within. They shouldn't try to change their style for the sole reason of selling more CDs. They should follow their own path. It worked great so far, didn't it?
Disclaimer: I haven't heared any songs from FII so far (Trying to be patient for *the* day). So I cannot tell if DT really tries to sound like Pink Floyd or if it's just (Images &) words. :-)
>I love DT and it's my favorite band forever as much as JlB is the best >singer. Maybe I don't understand his words.
The same goes for me, too.
Jan ================================================================== = Jan Ziese = Tel.: +49 (0) 7738 / 99 858 = jzi@star-ag.ch = ================================================================== = It was long ago = = and it was far away = = and it was so much better than it is today = = ('Paradise by the dashboard light' / Meat Loaf) = ==================================================================
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 2982 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 17:59:53 EST