YTSEJAM Digest 3021
Today's Topics:
1) Anna Lee
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
2) My obligatory Comments on Fii
by "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
3) OOPS Correcting myself
by "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
4) Re: Some more thoughts
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
5) UNCLASSIFIED:-A Class Of Their Own ?
by Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
6) I'm BACKKKKKKKK!!!!!!
by dtfreak@imap4.asu.edu
7) Theme ?
by Karri K Kiviluoma <kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi>
8) Chris Ptacek
by Brandon Elhai <belhai@drew.edu>
9) Take 2 (A long and rambling account on.. uhh..)
by Karri K Kiviluoma <kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi>
10) UNCLASSIFIED:-FII Influences
by Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
11) Re: Jees....settle down!
by Jon Parmet <jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
12) Re: Oh, forgive me...
by CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
13) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3020
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:31:27 -0400
From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Anna Lee
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970925173127.009b5790@sol.eng.fore.com>
Anna Lee sounds like it's right off III Sides to Every Story. The chord
progression, the Hammond sound in the second verse, the bridge, and
especially the last 2 lines of each chorus. This isn't a bad thing, as I'm
kind of liking hearing a bunch of different bands throughout the album. I
think we should compile a list of bands that we hear, and in what songs.
Oh yeah, the beginning and ending sound like the Elton John song that goes
"Oh Jeanie", though I'm unsure of the title.
Anyway, here's what I hear so far. To add to this list, cut and paste the
copy you are adding to.
New Millenium - Rush
You Not Me - the fuckin' intro sounds like STP
Peruvian Skies - Pink Floyd, Metallica
Hollow Years - Charo (the flamenco intro solo)
Lines in the Sand - the intro is right off a Floyd disc
Anna Lee - Elton John, Extreme
Trial of Tears - Rush (Xanadu)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:56:30 -0400
From: "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: My obligatory Comments on Fii
Message-ID: <342ADE0E.D68E8EA8@caribe.net>
Ok..ill start saying this is easily my favorite DT album *gasp* (did I
actually say that? /me goes look for his anti flame clothes) I wont go
into the songs themselves..because lots of people have done it
already..I just want to say that i love every song on the album..except
for you Not Me..which i only *really like*!
Granted.. yes..they have changed..but at least in my opinion..this is an
extremely well written and emotional album. Yes, they are less
technical, but at the same time, they didnt go "commercial" or "grunge"
they are just discovered the groove..as someone eloquently put it a
while ago... They have also discovered how to exude more emotion on
their songs..making them sound more together....
About the production, i love it.. the only gripe i have with it is
that they couldve used like 1/2 a notch of low end, and like 1 notch of
treble (this is on very lay man terms because i dont know anytying about
producion) Also being a guitarrist i find JP's new distortion sound to
have like..to much "midrange" but thats just my way of liking it.. I
always have my amp set to bass: 8 , mid: 1or 2 and high 7... kinda like
James Hetfield once had taped the midrange eq down to 0... So thats a
matter of personal opinion..
This also is an album which *MUST* be listened to with
headphones..there are so many cool things going on on the
background...that with even a big/expensive system you cant perceive..(I
dont wanna brag but my HT is almost new and its a very high end
system,my dad being an audiophile) Still headphones are the best bet
with this album..and lots of concentrating on the music...(f.e.: go to
your room , turn off the lights and put your headphones on...lay down
and take FII for a ride)
Well enough of my rambling.. take care you people
In the stream of consciousness
There is a river crying
Living comes much easier
Once we admit , We're dying.
Dream Theater: Lines in the Sand
http://premium.caribe.net/~calfaro
mailto:calfaro@caribe.net mailto:progboy@mindless.com
Universal Internet Number (ICQ) 1254229
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:59:59 -0400
From: "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: OOPS Correcting myself
Message-ID: <342ADEDF.9E47A10D@caribe.net>
When i said:
the only gripe i have with it is
that they couldve used like 1/2 a notch of low end, and like 1 notch of
treble
I meant they couldve used 1/2 a notch less... and 1 extra notch..
PRog..
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:02:13 -0400
From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Some more thoughts
Message-ID: <19970925120326.AAA3457@sni.pananet.com>
> Nobody ever reads a piece of great literature and says: "well, this
> is ok, but it would better if it were more CONCISE.
Actually I've done that a couple of times. Of course details can make art
a incredibly great thing, but other times they just take up space...of
course it depends on a person's nippl, er..opinions. Besides that, the
argument is not that the music in FII is more concise, but that it's more
FOCUSED. Everything is there for a reaon. Now my personal view of he whole
deal, is that this CD has more emotion than any of their previos albums.
Not that there previous CD's didn't have any, otherwise I wiould've never
gotten into DT. But TAMP is the first DT song that has made me cry
(akthough AD came close back in the day), and the solos for PS and HK give
me tingles like no other JP solo (it's tingles, not creeps, Shai :) .
Back to the concise thing. Something adding unnecesary details to a piece
of music can make it meander and that way it becomes boring. Other times it
is absolutely necessary. Aside from the super piced unison scale at the
beginning of the Met. middle section, i find every other part necessary to
make the song what it is. It all, as usual, depends on the song.
BTW, I'm proud of the fact that my 'opinions are nipples' idea has spread
out on the jam :)
Ernesto
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:12:29 +1000
From: Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-A Class Of Their Own ?
Message-ID: <4A25651D.00797DD4.00@nschq-e-navy.navy.gov.au>
Hi All,
Yes I do really like FII, with every listen it gets better for
me.
For me it proves to me yet again that Dream Theater are in a class of their
own when it comes to progressive rock/metal.
Is 'Where Are You Now' going to appear of any of the FII singles ?
gRaham_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:43:58 -0700 (MST)
From: dtfreak@imap4.asu.edu
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: I'm BACKKKKKKKK!!!!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970925123233.17778A-100000@email2.asu.edu>
HELLO TO ALL!!!!
Wow! I'm back... It took me a while to get enrolled here at ASU so I
couldn't write to the jam at all. I now have my own e-mail account here
at ASU, so I'll be posting as frequently as possible. For those of you
who don't remember me, which might be most, I'm Hector the DTFreak...:)
I hope to hear from all of the Jammers that are here at ASU, I know there
are several (VINCE, ECKIE, etc...) so please drop me a line. I haven't
been able to read the jam much because I receive it in my home in Nogales
and my computer broke, so I haven't been able to download the jam in
Three long ass weeks. Anyway... Some DT content... I love the new
album, I think it's great. The sound just blows me away, the music just
kicks total ass, and best of all it's DT... They out-did themselves
again. I'm pretty sure you guys are probably ripping the album to
pieces, but I think it's great. I can't wait to hear them live. I sure
hope they come to Arizona. On one of the local radio stations BMS was
the # 2 MOST REQUESTED SONG... Isn't that amazing... Well anyway, I hope
they sell millions of copies because the album has beautiful ballads and
killer prog. I hope I havn't pissed too many people off with my long ass
post. I hope all is well.
Sincerely,
Hector Crisantes
AKA: DTFreak
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 01:18:25 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Karri K Kiviluoma <kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Theme ?
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970926005752.29025B-100000@gamma.hut.fi>
Madsman wrote:
> Overall, the album has a darker feel, sure. However, if you read
> the lyrics to A New Millennium, Lines in the Sand, and Trial of Tears
> though, they reflect a sense of perseverance; they're more about overcoming
> than succumbing to the pressures and forces of life.
Methinks you're right on the money on this one. I'd like to add to this
list though (these are of course my personal takes and thus should be
regarded as opinions (well, duh! =)):
- Hollow Years -Maybe about a person clinging to a relationship
and finally getting her life together and thus crashing
her hollow years behind her... discussed a little earlier.
- Burning My Soul -A person living in a relationship that's opp-
ressive and generally not working well and finally breaks
out and says 'But I don't give a shit'
Yes! Shit... the pinnacle of this whole song lyrically
is on that word and I think should be there.
(What else could it be? 'I don't give a damn' sounds
pretty lame and well... basically I can't see 'tootle'
working either =)
- Take Away My Pain -The final verse: 'It's time to let the it
rain' etc... Is the person finally coping with all the
sorrow and pain. (Gives me chills every time I hear it=)
The rest of the songs (YNM,PS,JLMB,AL and ToT) are basically just
describing situations where there is some pressure and people are
trying to live on through them...
Dat's it folks...
Karri
kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi
P.S. I could be wrong ;)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:50:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brandon Elhai <belhai@drew.edu>
To: Dream Theater <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Chris Ptacek
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970925184959.606200522A-100000@drew.edu>
I have one question for you Chris--
How do find all this time to write such long posts to the ytsejam?
Brandon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 01:58:20 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Karri K Kiviluoma <kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Take 2 (A long and rambling account on.. uhh..)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970926012247.29025C-100000@gamma.hut.fi>
Urks, another message in a row...
Well, I tried to keep my spoon off this whole review and impres-
sions business, but finally needed (needed? Try wanted, would you?)
to say something:
Wading through all the reviews I feel that the boys hit another
big one. Every other reviewer likes the same stuff as I do best, and
right on the next post I get to read my favourite moments dissed merci-
lessly. And frankly, my dear, I LOVE it! This mailing-list is so
versatile in it's musical tastes, it's scary. To me it best symbolises
the band itself: catering awesome music to as many people as possible.
And I realized it would be impossible to create a musical work that
would wholly satisfy everyone here. But DT sure makes the best try
around the musical business that I've heard, with never compromising
their musical content.
But still... I can very well understand, that if this record
wasn't what you hoped for, you are hurt and saddened. But it's not the
end of the world, that you can't find in it what you wanted. There's
lotsa music still out there in the world, and maybe the next DT was all
that you dream of, just don't post embittered flame-baits on the 'jam.
Try keeping your objections rational and .. well ... as opinions.
Lotsa times someone hasn't liked the cd, he feels betrayed and let down
and posts something here, that's very likely to hurt the feelings of
those people liking the record. This is a DT fan-list after all. But
of course rational and well based objections are always cool ...
And pro-FIIers (err... you know what I mean). If someone doesn't
like the cd, don't always jump on his case so bad. The guy/ga...
person prolly feels at least a little like described above. Some under-
standing to the poor bloke... (crying already ? =)
And what about the 'THIS CD ROCKS!' posts? This is a DT list,
right? =)
Uhh... getting kinda long here, but what the hell. Prolly won't
post again for another year =)
Somebody commented that this kind of reaction is almost the
same as when Awake came out... Well, guess what? Same with I&W. Dunno
if this list was up already then, but check out Gibraltar's Prog Some-
thing for a reviews of I&W (If it's/they are still up). This one guy
totally destroys I&W as poppy, commercial, whatever record, with very
few saving 'progressive' moments. Yes, we truly have a new DT record at
hand here ;)
'Sometimes, for a moment of bliss
And the passion, we're craving
There's a message we miss.'
-You know who, you know where =)
Karri
kkiviluo@cc.hut.fi
P.S. I'm certainly not trying say what you can/can't send here.
Just some thoughts I wanted to bring out.
P.S.S. Oh, Jason Breitweg, could you email me your addy? I have
some questions on the Bling Guardian fan club and you
seem to be in the know =)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:11:34 +1000
From: Graham.Boyle.149036@navy.gov.au
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-FII Influences
Message-ID: <4A25651D.007EC437.00@nschq-e-navy.navy.gov.au>
Hi All,
With all the comments coming about the 'FII" influences, is
anyone really that surprised ?
Remember the 'Uncovered' show ?
DT played homage to all they bands that had an influence on them.
And what did they play that night ?
Elton John, Rush, Beatles, Metallica covers amongst many.
I don't hear much of these 'influences' on FII, except on 'Trial Of Tears'
which IMO is pure 'Permanent waves' era Rush.
Anyone who wants to sell their 'Uncovered' CD boot or know where I can get
a new one please email me.
gRaham_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:11:36 +0000
From: Jon Parmet <jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Jees....settle down!
Message-ID: <342AEFA8.ABD@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
Brandon Vaughn wrote:
> I think the CD is one of their greatest efforts too.
I agree :)
> But a lot of people
> are feeling disappointed in the fact that this is their least progressive
> album to date. Not that this is bad...it will just take time for some to
> get used to it.
And for the most part I don't have too much of a problem with other's
opinions, until they get rammed down my throat. Then I get a little
defensive :). Especially after, what, a whole 3 or 4 days since it's
been out.
Don't you think it's a little pig-headed for someone to judge something
that quickly and then INFLICT it here on the jam? I didn't start it, but
I'll be damned if I'll let it go by uncontested! I was born at night,
but not last night :)
For example, heheheheh, I thought this was a DT mailing list, not a
PROGRESSIVE PINHEADS ONLY list. If it takes time for THEM to get used
it, then that's THEIR problem, not mine! I'm used to it NOW! I love it
NOW! I hear people I hang with loving it NOW! RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE!
Whadya know? I'm old, but not all that slow....unless she asks me to :)
I was listening to Progressive music in the early 70's, not to sound
pompous or anything, but the same old arguments come up again and again
and again. It's getting real old, man!
This is all toungue in cheek, by the way :) I know, it's hard to tell
sometimes!
Life is short... don't blink, you may miss it! I've learned to stop
blinking and I'm gonna have one fucking awesome time on this tour. And
you know what, I don't give a fuck if I'm the only one dancing...
Somethings tell me though, I won't be!
Clark UNabel wrote:
>Now everybody listen up, because I'm only going to say this once: IT JUST
I'm sorry, did someone say something?
Chris:
> You get what you give. Your post was drivel, at best.
Closer to swill :)
*------------*----------------------------*--------------*
| Jon Parmet | jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov | 617-494-2851 |
*------------*----------------------------*--------------*
"Drifting with the current
This stream of life flows on" -- John Myung
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:21:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Oh, forgive me...
Message-ID: <01IO2JA8TEYA9ODPCP@alma.edu>
I KNEW I'd get a response from Chris Ptacek!
> Who's defining a whole genre? Take this to the level of basic
>English... what does "Progress" mean? Then what would you infer that
Your as guilty as anyone when it comes to this, Ptacek. Can you honestlysay that you've never described a band's sound as progressive? Because by
your definition, you can't. So a progressive rock band progresses from one
album to the next, huh? And how, exactly, does that sound? No one can answer
this one for me. You talk about progressive as a style, but you don't define
it as one. I would have no problem with this definition, if people actually
stuck by it, but the only time anyone actually applies the "progress" definitionis when they're making this argument about why the album sounds different.
Ninety-five percent of the time they're talking about a STYLE, odd time sigs,
technical playing, whatever. But the two don't work together.
>Why you have to be so damn acidic, just because you
>disagree with what others are saying, is beyond me, but surely it reflects
>your lack of maturity.
I don't usually post stuff like that, but at least it got a response.
I tried to post some intelligent comments a few weeks ago, but no one cared.
Throw a few "you fucking idiots" into a post, and people read it. Am I proud
of that? No. Does that really justify writing what I did? Maybe, maybe not.
>>try explaining to those of us with minds HOW this album is a PROGRESSION
>>from Awake.CHANGE is not the same thing as PROGRESS. I'm sorry to use
>>all the capitals, but a lot of people just don't get this very simple concept.>
> Sure. This album is a progression from Awake, in my opinion,
>because the songs are a lot more focused, the musicianship is tighter, the
Again, focused is as subjective as anything, and I would argue that
"focused" as it is in FII is a bad thing. Of course, focus sounds like it
couldn't possibly be a bad thing, but it depends on how loosely you apply th
word. As for the musicianship being tighter, I strongly disagree, as I believe
would alot of others.
>moods are more dramatic,
Again, very subjective, and many would disagree.
>and they're not dragging out the same music/style
>over and over again (i.e. they're not writing songs that aim to sound like
>Pull Me Under, or Lie).
Once again, this is a CHANGE, but not necessarily a PROGRESSION.
I've responded to these examples because I personally think that you
make a weak argument, but I will admit that your opinion IS as valid as mine.
And I mean that. The point is this: What you just wrote, in response to my
rather harsh and acidic post, is the first thing like it that I have read.
THAT was my point; I've seen probably fifty people say "well of course it
sounds different, they're progressive", but not one person ever said a thing
to back it up, until you just did.
> because you're so belligerent and intent on letting us know that
>we're all inferior.
No doubt that I was unnecessarily harsh in my post. As I said a
couple of posts ago, I probably made it sound like I was talking about everyone
who likes the new album, which I wasn't. But like I said, at least I finally
got a response.
> No one is
>telling you what you can or can not do.
But people have been. Not me specifically, but every time someone
posts something thoughtful, but a little negative about DT, there are people
who rip them apart without even reading what they wrote. Not you, but there
are people here like that.
>the Ytsejam is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm pretty convinced that it's
>overwhelmingly bad, but it IS a lot of fun.
We agree on one thing. I just can't get enough of 1200 people's
identical reviews of the new album.
More fun with Chris and Clark later. Gotta go.
-Clark
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:49 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3020
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970925234549.00c56228@pop.enteract.com>
>From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
>Subject: Some more thoughts
>
>Then there's the one that really gets me, where people
>say that the songs are "more concise". Not that I disagree with the evaluation,
>the songs are definitely more concise. What escapes me is how anyone who likes
>DT's old work can see this as a good thing.
Concise = free of superfluous (exceedingly wasteful, or overly
extravagant... WANKY) detail.
This is something that is important in music. If music is not
concise, it meanders and goes nowhere, or takes too long in getting it's
point across (Not at all unlike the majority of my posts hehehe). Why is
this good? Because it makes the music stronger... it sticks with you more
readily. This is imperative if they have any plans for significant airplay.
I know, WE wouldn't care too much if they spent five minutes soloing before
each song began, but knowing how to make a song more concise, more to the
point, is a sign of maturity in music. It takes a certain level of
experience to know when "enough is enough" in a tune.
> Nobody ever reads a piece of great literature and says: "well, this
>is ok, but it would better if it were more CONCISE.
But MANY, MANY first drafts of future great pieces of literature are
read for the very purpose of making them more concise. The final product
shouldn't need this critique if it was edited correctly (by the author, or
these days, by an editor)
> Only in pop music would someone suggest that concise art is good.
And in movies, and plays, and poetry, and literature. In some
cases, even in visual art (for instance, you almost never want the
background to distract from the foreground). I think you're looking at it
as "Gimme the Cliff's Notes version of that new album".
>I seriously wonder if people who think that I&W has a bunch of "wanking"
>are really even hearing those complex sections the way I am. There IS
substance
>there, if you're willing to listen for it.
I agree. I for one, love I&W. I don't think it sounds "Mature",
but in this case, I can't find the words to describe it. It's as though you
can hear potential they haven't unlocked yet. You get (make that "I get")
the same feeling off Shadow Gallery's _Carved in Stone_. Both albums are
great. Neither sounds fully mature to me. My music is WAY LESS mature
even, for my lack of experience songwriting.
>From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
>bands like DT trace their heritage back to this genre. Therefore, even if
>DT put out ten albums exactly like I&W in a row, we would still be
>justified in calling them "Progressive".
So in light of their previous work, if the band kept playing the
same songs, but kept renaming them, you'd still call it progressive? I know
the Prog stigma would always be attached to the music sound, but would you
really call it progressive? I know I couldn't.
Take Care, Ytses!
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3021
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