YTSEJAM Digest 3020
Today's Topics:
1) Oh, forgive me...
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
2) KevMo and stuff
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
3) Falling Into Infinity PtIII
by GnRBrks@aol.com
4) Re: Pretty low
by Eckie <eckie@asu.edu>
5) 80's
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
6) Guitarists and Doug Pinnick
by David Di Tivoli <dream@pronet.it>
7) Some more thoughts
by CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
8) Modern Drummer & FW, DT
by "J. Cohen" <cohenj@execpc.com>
9) The blind guys speaks about FII
by Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
10) Japanese Fii
by "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
11) Re: Review of FII
by Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
12) Re: Oh, forgive me...
by Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
13) Peruvian Skies
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
14) Oh Lord, forgive me, for I know not of what do....
by Jon Parmet <jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:26:32 -0500
From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Oh, forgive me...
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970925202632.00cd18a0@pop.enteract.com>
>From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
>Subject: Wankiness, odd time sigs, technicality, etc....
>stupid argument anymore. Everyone thinks they're being so clever when they say:
>"Well they're a PROGRESSIVE band, so of course this album is going to be
>different." This is so STUPID. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you
>cannot define a musical genre by the fact that it never sounds the same.
Who's defining a whole genre? Take this to the level of basic
English... what does "Progress" mean? Then what would you infer that
"Progressive" means? Why you have to be so damn acidic, just because you
disagree with what others are saying, is beyond me, but surely it reflects
your lack of maturity.
>try explaining to those of us with minds HOW this album is a PROGRESSION
>from Awake.CHANGE is not the same thing as PROGRESS. I'm sorry to use
>all the capitals, but a lot of people just don't get this very simple concept.
Sure. This album is a progression from Awake, in my opinion,
because the songs are a lot more focused, the musicianship is tighter, the
moods are more dramatic, and they're not dragging out the same music/style
over and over again (i.e. they're not writing songs that aim to sound like
Pull Me Under, or Lie). This is the problem that bands like Yngwie's suffer
from... they keep pumping out the same album, over and over and over...
That shows no (Dare I say it?) progress... not even regression, which would
be cool for a band like theirs. But I seriously doubt that a person with a
"mind" like yours could comprehend or accept what I have to say about this
matter, because you're so belligerent and intent on letting us know that
we're all inferior.
>Now everybody listen up, because I'm only going to say this once: IT JUST
>MEANS THAT I LIKE THE STYLE AND THE SONGWRITING ON IMAGES
>AND WORDS BETTER. This is possible. It's not the result of a closed mind.
This post is the result of an insecure individual. No one is
telling you what you can or can not do. I like APSoG more than Falling Into
Infinity. I happen to like FII as much as either of the other two DT albums
already, and expect that soon it'll be my favorite. That's not better or
worse than your own opinions, but you need to realize that just because we
may disagree with what you say, doesn't mean that everyone thinks you're
wrong for having your own opinions. I don't owe you any of this shiny,
happy bullshit either. It's posts like yours that really make me wonder if
the Ytsejam is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm pretty convinced that it's
overwhelmingly bad, but it IS a lot of fun.
>Fuck all of you mindless idiots who can't understand that because you're
too busy
>worshipping a band that, guess what? is just five guys. <SNIP>
>And if admitting that this album is not on par with their other albums is
actually
>going to destroy your world, then I truly pity you.
Wow... listen to you. I hope everyone can take the time out of
their busy schedules to read this and realize how intelligent that post was.
Clark, when you're done accusing us of idolatry and sycophancy, maybe you'd
like to sign some autographs?
Here... let me use your own argument against you:
Is it wrong for those of use who like the album to do so? Does that
make us ass kissers? Just because we happen to like this material, and
think it's the logical progression (no pun intended) from Awake and ACoS,
doesn't mean we're followers. This music is exactly the kind of music I've
been wanting to make (With the exception of Anna Lee and Burn My Soul, which
I still have a few qualms about), so naturally, it's going to be exactly the
kind of music I want to hear.
You can't get your panties in a bunch and tell us that we don't have
the right to infringe upon your opinions, only to turn around and blow ours
away. No one is telling you you're wrong for your opinions. I am, however
letting you know that you're a real dick.
> The lyrics on this album SUCK compared to I&W. Yes, that is an opinion,
>not a fact. But it is a very valid opinion, and one which I can back up.
You can't back up an opinion like that. If, hypothetically, I liked
some lyrics on this album more than I like those on I&W, no evidence you can
show me can tell me that I'm wrong. Stop worrying about what everyone else
thinks, and stop being so damned defensive.
>to the instrumental section of Metropolis. So don't assume that you know why
>someone else listens to and likes the music that they do, because you have no
>idea.
You say that, and then you go on:
> If you think that these are good lyrics or that this is real emotion
>on FII, then maybe you really just don't get they're older albums anyways.
Here... let me help you: "You have no idea." How can you call all
these other arguments mindless, and then spew something this paradoxical?
Maybe I'm missing something... will one of you "with minds" step in and help
me out?
The rest of your post hinges on arguments that you can't back up if
you stand by what you said above. If we can't know why you like something,
and on what level you like it, or what the experience is for you, then you
can NOT draw any conclusions of the sort for us.
> I can tell. I joined this list so I could have some intelligent
>discussions about good music, and what good music is.
You get what you give. Your post was drivel, at best.
- CWP
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:30:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: KevMo and stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970925161547.4841A-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Greg R. Lee wrote:
> It sure beats doing some keys for Fates so you can eat! Hey, I admire
I dunno, if *I* had the choice to play on either APSoG or FII, I'd take
APSoG, a much more moving and cohesive work of art...especially if Mark
Zonder would play drums on my album in turn.
> Kevin for the balls it took to leave DT to persue his own interests, I
> really do...I really like his work with DT, but I could care less for
> Chromakey...the demos do nothing for me.
>
Music Meant to be Heard + the Chroma Key demos are awesome. Not everyone's
cup of tea, sure, but excellent songwriting and lyrics that blow away
anything on FII. Of course, DT has actually released two albums since
Kevin's departure, whereas his official output has been 3 songs. I hope he
hasn't lost interest in Chromakey, too. Anyone know anything about what's
going on with him?
And btw, anyone who attributes "Glam tendencies" and "showing off" to
Kevin's influence obviously hasn't heard any of his post-DT stuff.
> I am still listening to FII every chance I get, and I still like it, but
> you know...there is nothing on the CD that gets me quite as arroused as
> say the "Scarred" solo...
I've had the same feeling a lot, except the Scarred solo doesn't get me
very aroused. Replace that with the transition between the Mirror and
Lie, or the beginning of Voices, and I could type the same sentence. But
the more I listen to FII, the better it sounds. Still a notch below the
others, though.
-maximilian
Anton Max
MadMax+@cmu.edu
http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:36:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: GnRBrks@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Falling Into Infinity PtIII
Message-ID: <970925163532_2020463371@emout12.mail.aol.com>
"Hell's Kitchen"
1st listen and I was taken back to the Live in Tokyo video to JP's solo.I got
so wrapped up in it and then it was over so sooooooon.They could have made
the whole album like this and I wouldn't have complained.I know this used to
be the instumental to BMS but I think it fits very nice as a GROOVING reprise
to it.Talk about a lot of stuff happening aat the same time. WHOOOOAAAHH!!!!
Lots of notes.I love it. Put this one on repeat and make love along with it.
"Lines in the Sand"
One thing that really makes this song.............the spacey intro with the
drum fills by Mr. Portnoy!!!! Very anthematic as is the rest of the song.This
sets up the rest of it.This is by far my favorite on the ablum. This is the
GROOVINGEST song on the whole album,IMHO.All around the keys,bass,guitar and
drum parts are incredibly tight.And oh........the vocals are EXTREME. JLB and
Doug Pinnick really sound good together,IMHO. Did I mention that this song
really GROOVES!!!! All twelve minutes and five seconds of this song ROCK!!!!
Glen <GnRBrks@aol.com>
" Be back in two and two." Chuck Woolery,Love Connection
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:41:51 -0700
From: Eckie <eckie@asu.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Pretty low
Message-ID: <342A15BF.ED90E862@asu.edu>
Neil Gallop wrote:
> Hi all
Hi Neil!
> Am I the only one around here who thinks it's pretty low of Mr.
> Portnoy et. al. to poke fun at Shannon Hoon and Kurt Cobain in
> 'Just Let Me Breath'? I can just imagine the outcry from enraged
> metal/hard rock fans if somebody did the same to Keith Moon and
> John Bonham, for example. If they had chosen two people who are
> still alive, Billy Corgan perhaps, at least they would be able to shoot
> back if they wanted to.
Sorry I had to repost the entire original post...but I rilly couldn't cut
anything out.....
What could Billy Corgan POSSIBLY say about Dream Theater?
"Um. Isn't that a porno magazine?"
I'm not quite sure if they're poking fun at the actual people than they are
of criticizing how the Industry is raping these "fake artists" of thier
minds, putting them on stage in a monkey outfit, allowing them to fall into
drug addiction (allowing being the key word here) to the point of suicide,
and once they, the "posuers" have killed themselves, the record company
profits even more...
..because, low 'n behold, they're the ones who hold the copyrights for the
material.
~Eckie's third nipple
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:03:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: 80's
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970925170143.7598A-100000@bdmserver>
Mike "Ultraviolent with a soft touch" Blevins wrote:
>If that's the case, then give me back the eighties, please. At least
>women wore short skirts to clubs then... :)
Ah yes... The days of "Lipstick and Leather"... Great song by the way...
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com |
|===================================================================|
| New Dream Theater-September 23, 1997 *** Washington Redskins 2-1 |
| Congrats to the American League East Champion Baltimore Orioles!! |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:58:32 +0200
From: David Di Tivoli <dream@pronet.it>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Guitarists and Doug Pinnick
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970925225832.008e6100@pronet.it>
I have found a Japanese cd that contains giutalist performance(Ted
Nugent,Ty Tabor,Slash,Brian May,Paul Gilbert.....and others that I don't
remember......)with in all Doug Pinnick's voice.That's a good thing for
King's X fans.......does anyone know that cd yet?
+--------------------------------------------------+
| David Di Tivoli |
| "DREAM" Undernet:#italia |
| E-mail:dream@pronet.it |
| UIN #2549487 |
|www.pegacity.it/abita/374/index.htm |
|-----------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:06:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
To: YTSEJAM@ax.com
Subject: Some more thoughts
Message-ID: <01IO2ELJTNPU9ODMSZ@alma.edu>
I have a couple things to add to my earlier rant.
First of all, in response to Pat Sullivan, if I made it sound like I
think that everyone who says that FII is DT's best album is an idiot, I
apologize, because I don't think that and that's not what I was trying to say.
My criticisms were directed at the individuals who get their panties in a
bunch every time someone says that it's not their best album, even when they
offer a good reason, and feel the need to insult anyone who shares this opinion
with this mindless and ridiculous argument about "progressing". I won't try
to tell you or anyone that you are lying when you say what you like. I do,
however, believe that there are SOME people around here who couldn't admit that
this is album is subpar, even if they knew deep down inside that it was true.
By no means do I think that this applies to everyone who says that this is DT's
best work. By the way, just for the record, I LIKE FII.
Another comment I keep seeing lately is that the songwriting on FII has
become "more mature", which is subjective, and which I'd like to see a little
more explanation for. Then there's the one that really gets me, where people
say that the songs are "more concise". Not that I disagree with the evaluation,
the songs are definitely more concise. What escapes me is how anyone who likes
DT's old work can see this as a good thing. I know that this will ultimately
just come down to a difference of opinion, but I want to try to explain why
for some people, all the "wanking" on I&W is not just a bunch of showing off.
Nobody ever reads a piece of great literature and says: "well, this
is ok, but it would better if it were more CONCISE. Just take out all the
details, all of the imagery, and all of the foreshadowing, and just give me
a five-page outline of the plot." Details are what make art so beautiful, and
what gives an artist a unique voice. Do you look at the Mona Lisa and say:
"He could have gotten the point across with just a stick figure."? Only in
pop music would someone suggest that concise art is good. A great piece of
music is as much a journey as a great piece of literature. There's a big picture, to be sure, but how the musician gets from one idea to another is as importantas the idea itself. I seriously wonder if people who think that I&W has a
bunch of "wanking" are really even hearing those complex sections the way I am.
There IS substance there, if you're willing to listen for it.
As I said, it's ultimately a matter of opinion. I guess some people
go into the music listening for completely different things, but I like to be
challenged by the music. It keeps my mind involved in the music, while repition
(oops) repitition just kind of makes me block the music out.
-Clark
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:27:41 -0700
From: "J. Cohen" <cohenj@execpc.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Modern Drummer & FW, DT
Message-ID: <342AF36D.6117@execpc.com>
In case anybody didn't know there's a cool article in MD magazine on
Mark Zonder in the studio for APSoG. There's some good stuff, like how
when Mark had spent five hours programming beats into his sequencer in
preparation for the live tour and Matheos came in and flipped a light
switch, which also controlled the power, and erased everything. :)
Also, MP is on the cover next month...
Jordan (Cohen, not the asshole Jordan signing guestbooks!)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: The blind guys speaks about FII
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970925171440.6472L-100000@shell.monmouth.com>
OK. Firstly, production. And you should take my opinion because I hear
better than all of you. I have a theory. Everybody who hates the
production hates it because Kevin made DT sound less like a metal band
and more like rush in their last two attempts. Is this bad? Not really,
unless you were expecting the past to repeat itself. If you really hate
FII that much, maybe you are basing your opinion on the album linearily,
instead of thinking of the album as one work. Don't look at all of DT's
albums like a continuing saga or a television series. Look at each album
on its own, like a TV movie. I think the album's production is quite
good, the drums sound great, maybe the keyboards are a little low at
times, and maybe James is hard to understand at times, but that's that
way on all albums for me. I was not expecting IW or awake again, I wanted
something different. I miss that style somewhat, but I want DT to advance
to progress and not to do awake part deux. Why is it that every list I am
on, whether it be Rush's, genesis's, and especially Yes's are like this.
This album sucks. It isn't like album X in their hayday. Screw off. Fuck
the band, they sold out. I am tired of it. The only list I don't hear
this shit on is th eELP loist and that's because ELP hasn't put out an
album in a while, and I don't get 300 ELP digest messages in my mail
everyday. Come on guys. If you want DT to do awake that badly every
album, form your own band and write your own shit. Take my opinion for
what it's worth, but rest assured, if you even remotely try to flame me,
I will fuck you up. Ask D-man about f sharp. He'll tell you about the
poor sap who got burned at the hands of the blind man's flame shooter.
Reach Damon Fibraio at damon@shell.monmouth.com
keyboardist, vocalist, radio personality
Deviant of Reality
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars.
Neil Peart of Rush
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:22:06 -0400
From: "ÞrØgßø¥" <calfaro@caribe.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Japanese Fii
Message-ID: <342AD5FD.B663E0A7@caribe.net>
Does anyone know an online order place where you can order the Japanese
FII with the bonus trax?? Please email me
--In the stream of consciousness There is a river crying Living comes much easier Once we admit , We're dying. Dream Theater: Lines in the Sand http://premium.caribe.net/~calfaro mailto:calfaro@caribe.net mailto:progboy@mindless.com Universal Internet Number (ICQ) 1254229
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:26:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Anton Max <madmax@andrew.cmu.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Review of FII Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95L.970925172218.4841B-100000@unix18.andrew.cmu.edu>
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Len Berkoski wrote: > The whole album: > I was really disappointed by this album in general. Even though there were > promising parts > here and there, it seemed that the album was lacking the overall synergy > that was present > on earlier albums. On IAW and Awake I felt there were recurring themes, > and each song was > part of a greater whole (I know people will jimmy one together in response > to this). This album
There are recurring themes in FII. I haven't placed them all yet, but I'm pretty sure that there are parts of lots of stuff in Hell's Kitchen, and some of the themes from NM and YNM occur in other places. They're not as memorable as the wait for sleep riff or SDV melody, so they're harder to pick up on, but I think they're there.
In general, I think your criticisms are valid though. Oh well. Every album can't be the messiah. It's still a good CD.
-maximilian
Anton Max MadMax+@cmu.edu http://thunderdome.pc.cs.cmu.edu/aepithex.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:27:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Oh, forgive me... Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970925161305.10353A-100000@short-eared.owlnet.rice.edu>
> >stupid argument anymore. Everyone thinks they're being so clever when they say: > >"Well they're a PROGRESSIVE band, so of course this album is going to be > >different." This is so STUPID. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you > >cannot define a musical genre by the fact that it never sounds the same. > > Who's defining a whole genre? Take this to the level of basic > English... what does "Progress" mean? Then what would you infer that > "Progressive" means?
Actually, the way "Progressive" is usually used on this list isn't strictly correct.A lot of people use the term loosely to refer to a band that changes (or "progresses") from album to album, but that's not what the term originally meant. "Progressive Rock" is a fairly well recognized genre of music, which had its heydey in the 70's and was, at the time, definitely a progression from the other music of the day. "Progressive" bands like DT trace their heritage back to this genre. Therefore, even if DT put out ten albums exactly like I&W in a row, we would still be justified in calling them "Progressive".
As an analogy, consider "Alternative" music. When it first appeared, it _was_ an alternative to the mainstream, and therefore was labeled "Alternative". Once it became the mainstream, however, they didn't change the name to "Mainstream". So the name of the genre doesn't really correspond to the dictionary definition of the word "alternative" any more. "Progressive" music is the same way. The English language is evolving right before our eyes :).
Mark McEuen mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:29:07 -0400 From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Peruvian Skies Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970925172907.010a8100@sol.eng.fore.com>
I can't believe people are knocking Peruvian Skies. This was the first song that actually grabbed my attention, upon first listen, and still is probably my favorite song on the disk. On the other hand, I just can't seem to get into NM and ToT the way some people are. The problem with NM is the vocal line, but I'm not sure why I haven't gotten into ToT. Possibly because of its late arrival on the disc. I had the same problem with Scarred. I loved Voices way before getting into Scarred, probably due to its placement.
KAI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:30:21 +0000 From: Jon Parmet <jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Oh Lord, forgive me, for I know not of what do.... Message-ID: <342AD7ED.FF6@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
Something wrote:
> The bass and drums are great on the whole album, and the guitar is > there, too, but it cannot do much alone. (meaning the lack of keyboard > work) Yes, I miss KM's key work a lot.
You missed a lot more than that. Stop insulting the jam, and go back and LISTEN TO THE FUCKING DISC! Derek is ALL over this album!
> it DOES NOT BRING ANYTHING NEW, in spite of the new sound.
No, YOU'RE the one that brings nothing NEW. And the sounds you produce are old...
I'm not going to even respond to the rest of the excrement in that post. You truly have no clue! Hollow Years? Sting? why, because MP hits a rimshot or 3? Clear roots?
No offense, though....bwahahahahah
Go away! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And now, another chromosonally deficient being attempts greatness in the role of stand up comedian, someone pretending to impersonate L. Jason Hartman spewed:
> Feel free to add to the list as you see fit.
No, but just as a matter of culling the herd by removing the injured, I imagine Skadz removing from the list. Now if only news:dt.whatever was moderated by the Skadal Unit :)
[remaining spewage sent to the defective human reclamation center]
Here's a song he could cover without a problem:
TAKE AWAY MY BRAIN!
bwahahaha
>Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 20:21:16 -0400 ^^^^^^ >From: Lars Hellsten <lars@shaw.wave.ca> >To: Christian Albert Schulze <schulze2@mindspring.com>, ytsejam@ax.com
I see Skadz has added the AI module to the server so it properly assigns the correct priority for when the post is processed... :)
> No, what I want to do is express my opinion.
On a more basic level, you're just expressing the fact that the song simply isn't what YOU want it to be. It so obviously disturbs you enough that you must use the word 'suck.' Irrespective of the fact that other may actually like, this matters not to you when you choose your delivery options.
You claim that others aren't engaging in intelligent discourse, yet you hyporcritically use the same garbage bullshit attempts at logic and debate in a vein attempt to paint people into a corner. You wonder why
Take a look at yourself Not at anyone else And tell me what you see
Damn, these lyrics rule :)
> But in YNM, JP plays that damn riff with the wah pedal for nearly the > whole damn song. That kind of ruins it for me.
Cool! I'm glad JP ruined it for you!!! Mission FUCKING accomplished! hehehehe
Maybe someone can tie you down and play it over and over again till your head splits open :)
*------------*----------------------------*--------------* | Jon Parmet | jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov | 617-494-2851 | *------------*----------------------------*--------------*
"Drifting with the current This stream of life flows on" -- John Myung
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3020 **************************
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