YTSEJAM Digest 3023
Today's Topics:
1) FII... no, not really...
by Marcelo Vanzin <vanzin@geocities.com>
2) the return . . .
by jefffalk@bu.edu (Jeffrey Falk)
3) Good Point Bennett
by DaveH <buster@ee.net>
4) quick clarification
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
5) Reference points....
by "Paul Matthews" <J6865644@emu.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au>
6) JLMB/WFS connection?
by Brandon Elhai <belhai@drew.edu>
7) maturity
by ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack)
8) To whomever posted about "National Health"...
by "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3020
by Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
10) Met2
by ~ME~ <breuric@acenet.com.au>
11) SFASU Jammers? Hello?
by cmustard@netdot.com (Mark Lampert)
12) Re: Good Point
by "James Bennett" <rycher@thegrid.net>
13) maturing
by Jim Beavens <jbeavens@ichips.intel.com>
14) Re: FII and other things
by "Dale R. Newberry" <Dale.R.Newberry@MO.NET>
15) THANK YOU DREAM THEATER
by Christopher Bellardine <chris154@clam.rutgers.edu>
16) Re: Regarding Bonus tracks of Japanese edition FII CD
by s963713@ipe.tsukuba.ac.jp (SUZUKI Jun'ya)
17) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3017
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:39:53 -0300
From: Marcelo Vanzin <vanzin@geocities.com>
To: Freaks R Us <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: FII... no, not really...
Message-ID: <33F9B039.4C1E0121@geocities.com>
Hey there jammanoids!
I promise I'll give FII its deserved chance, as soon as I feel able to
take Angra's Holy Land out of the player... =)
This album kicks so much ass... I almost haven't heard FII yet because
of it... how could I dislike it the first time I heard??? I really was a
sucker that time... =)
Hehehe... enough waste of jamwidth, no? =)
No, I really did not have anything else to do when decided to write
these lines...
No, I'm not really in one of my (few) sane moments... =)
Seriously, I (I know you'll flame my ass off when reading this), I'm
seeing again the Metallica's "Load" release, but in a smaller
proportion... lots of people saying, "it's a good album, but a bad DT
album...", and all that kind of shit. But, the difference is that I
really like FII (and I don't like "Load")! It's a pretty cool album.
-- []'s /**********************************************\ |* Marcelo Vanzin *| |* vanzin@geocities.com *| |* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/6308/ *| \**********************************************/------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:27:11 -0400 From: jefffalk@bu.edu (Jeffrey Falk) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: the return . . . Message-ID: <v01540b00b050c568746b@[128.197.9.247]>
. . . of the most despised list member from isolation and lurking.
All of this discussion has inspired me to post. (That'll show you all to discuss the new release at such length.) First of all, if there is anybody on this list who would not like this disc for some of its alleged faults. I was one of those who hated the "mercyfuck" line in "A Change of Seasons." (It was unnecesarily vulgar; the "Burning My Soul" expletive, while not the best way to express that kind of idea, is hardly in the same league.) The idea of Dream Theater having anything to do with an "industrial" sound would normally disappoint me. And, most significantly, being a follower of Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, I'm most attracted to the optimistic, positive, romantic aspect of Dream Theater. Considering that _Falling Into Infinfity_ is, at first glance, perhaps even darker and more somber than _Awake_, and because of some of the rawer elements mentioned above, I might think that I'd be disappointed with this album. Guess what: I'm not. I'm not sure where I rate this up against the other albums. I do know that is growing on my faster than any of their other albums. (And I think _Images and Words_, with the possible exception of _Operation: Mindcrime_ is the best album since _Permanent Waves_, my favorite album on Earth.) While it is dark, it has the uncompromising honesty I've come to expect from Dream Theater. And it does have touches of optimism ("New Millenium," "Anna Lee"?). Also, I think I've come to accept that there is a place for a certain amount of resentment and hostility (I'd call it moral indignation, i.e. "Just Let Me Breathe") in art, as well as sadness ("Take Away My Pain"), as long as it's not completely dwelled upon and there is a hopefulness and awareness of what's possible (which I think is considerably present throughout the album). I do hope the next album has more of the forward-looking, positive vibes of _Images and Words_, "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" and "To Live Forever," but I'm not going to let their somewhat low abundance on the current disc disappoint me. I compare _Falling Into Infinity_ with _Test for Echo_ in the sense that _Test for Echo_ is considerably more bitter (maybe even a bit cynical) than _Counterparts_ and _Roll the Bones_. At first, I wasn't sure if I liked _Test for Echo_ much, but I came to like it a lot. I prefer _Counterparts_, but I would rank it higher than _Roll the Bones_. Right now, I like _Falling Into Infinity_ better than I liked _Test for Echo_ at first (which doesn't necessarily mean I'll eventually like it better than _Test for Echo_). One more intersting thing about _Falling Into Infinity_ (which at least one person has mentioned) is how quickly it flows; for seventy-eight minutes, it sure goes by fast. (It did when I played it in its entirety on the radio this morning, even though I had to pause for commercials and to identify the station and give the song titles.) Maybe it has something to do with the excitement that a new Dream Theater album (and a good one at that) is out, but this one flows much faster than _Awake_ for me. The reason I posted such a long, self-indulgent message that probably makes little sense to many of you (who have skipped on to the next post), besides the fact that even I need some attention once in awhile, is that it should be clear to everybody that no one should be dissatisfied with any essential aspect of the new album. The album has more than satisfied _me_, of all people, the same person who can't stand the James Joyce samples (except for "6:00"), the one who doesn't (always) agree with "balls and chunk is where it's at", the one who likes "Innocence Faded" better than "Scarred" and the original intro to "Status Seeker" better than the "Puppies On Acid" section of "The Mirror." The album's unlikeliest supporter is ecstatic over it. I wish I was around and paying attention when Rush was releasing masterpieces like this. My opinions above may change, but I don't think they will significantly. Be careful in responses to this, because I might come out of hiding again.
Jeff Falk jefffalk@bu.edu now playing on Jeff's stereo: I don't need to tell any of you
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:06:42 -0400 From: DaveH <buster@ee.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: rycher@thegrid.net Subject: Good Point Bennett Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970925230642.0068fd6c@ee.net>
"James Bennett" <rycher@thegrid.net> wrote: >Why is this such a problem? People are expressing their opinions. It doesnt >make them wrong or you right. Attacking someones honest opinion is >pointless. The best thing to do is offer your reasons for holding your >personal opinions. > > I can look back at a lot of my favorite bands and say for example: "I >think Rush was at one of their peaks when (insert album here) was released, >and in comparision- I don't like (insert album here) as much" ......
You have a good solid point here James. However, I think part of the "issue" is that quite a few of the negative reviews are childish and offensive to some of us die hard fans. That is exactly the reason for my own childish post a few days ago, where I just ranted about how great FII is and I used the word 'fuck' a lot when it came to the folks who didn't like it. The posts containing criticims in the early stages were not constructive, and many were obviously based on a quickie listen to one or two songs. That can start to get on the nerves of those of us who actually appreciate the music on this CD.
I think what you see here is not a case of people being told they can't have an opion, I think it's a clear case of people fighting fire with fire. Those of us who were ready to give the CD a chance and found that we were happy with it have had to sit here and listen to weeks of negative comments and speculations. Well, the CD is out, many of us dig it, and some folks are making up for 3 weeks worth of fending off negative crap so that our own opinions didn't become polluted before we had the chance to fully absorb what the artists have done with this recording.
I guess what I'm trying to say bottom line is that I totally agree with what you said in your post, but in the incredibly mixed environment of this mailing list sometimes the ignorant posts breed ignorant replies. All we can do is shout what we think out loud in here (as I did so dis-tastefully on September 23rd) and try to feel better about it. ;)
In a much lighter-hearted version of my first review: I like FII for what it is, not for what everyone expected it should be. I'm finding a lot of cool new grooves in it that I would much rather hear than anything else
buster http://users1.ee.net/buster - Dream Theater http://www.dhpc.com/ryche/ - Queensryche
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:16:20 -0500 From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: quick clarification Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970926031620.00c9780c@pop.enteract.com>
>From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
>> Why is >this good? >> Because it makes the music stronger... it sticks with you more >>readily. This is imperative if they have any plans for significant airplay. > > AArrrrrrr.... Chris, earlier today you posted about how no fan's >opinion should ever interfere with what an artist writes! > I don't have the actual post, but you probably do. Jeez, your as bad >as me.
Actually, what I was referring to is radio hit formula. Songs have to stand out in a certain way to make it on the radio. I'm not, and I want this to be crystal clear, saying that I want Dream Theater to write this way or not. I am saying that I like this music a lot, and that based on my experience, if you want a song to do well on the radio/MTV, it has to stand out in one way or another. That can be done with an outrageous message, or a strange sound, or it can be done with really strong, focused songwriting. If you want a new copy of either of those messages, so you can see that I'm telling Dream Theater what to do (Not recently.. once Bafu and I had Portnoy gagged and tied up in my trunk... I stabbed him with a butcher knife a few times and Robert DeNiro shot him in the head, thus explaining the goofy grin that's perpetually on his face... his muscles are atrophied like that...) I'll be happy to plead innocent of these charges.
Christopher W. Ptacek IRC: Madsman Tech Support EnterAct, L.L.C. http://www.enteract.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
"You can be a dreamer You can be your dream come true Let imagination lead Reality will follow through" - Michael Hedges
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:31:14 +1000 From: "Paul Matthews" <J6865644@emu.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Reference points.... Message-ID: <2BE84142243@emu.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au>
> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:37:57 -0700 (PDT) > From: ytsejam@ax.com > Reply-to: ytsejam@ax.com > To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> > Subject: YTSEJAM digest 3022
> I just have to say that in my previous post I seem to have misjudged some of the > fans on this list. I'm surprised how many subscribers to this list have posted > honest criticism, although there are still those who like the album simply > because it's Dream Theater and they're supposed to. I've been listening to the > details of what people like about the album, but I'm afraid I haven't heard much > that I can agree with. The merits mentioned in these posts seem to me an > exageration of just how good each song is, like it's being compared to no other > reference point other than itself. I don't know, music operates in cycles, > ranging from years when there's shitloads of good material coming out of the > woodworks, to years when everything coming out of the woodworks is a Load of > shit. Guess which way we're headed now... > >
Why must us westerners put a measure on everything??? How can you create a reference point for a piece of music?? What should we do, give each song a numerical rating based on set criteria?? (Joking) Everybodies criteria would be wildly different anyway. All we can say about a piece of music is what we like about it and what we don't like about it. Analysing every single detail seems to take the fun out of listening to the music for me anyway. Oh well. What, may I ask, was your point above anyway? Are you saying that everyone should be analysing the new music from a completely unbiased perspective? I'd doubt very much whether anybody would anyway.
Paul
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:23:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Brandon Elhai <belhai@drew.edu> To: Dream Theater <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: JLMB/WFS connection? Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970926002022.606181744B-100000@drew.edu>
Jammers--
Has anyone else noticed that the lick from "just let me breathe" (3:39-3:41) is a sped up version of the riff from "wait for sleep" (the example being 0:00-0:02)? Pretty interesting.
Brandon
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:25:17 -0400 From: ernie@pananet.com (Ernesto Schnack) To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: maturity Message-ID: <19970925182316.AAA12558@sni.pananet.com>
> I agree. I for one, love I&W. I don't think it sounds "Mature", > but in this case, I can't find the words to describe it. It's as though you > can hear potential they haven't unlocked yet. You get (make that "I get") > the same feeling off Shadow Gallery's _Carved in Stone_. Both albums are > great. Neither sounds fully mature to me. My music is WAY LESS mature > even, for my lack of experience songwriting. >
I see I&W sounding young and hopeful..and even naive at times (in a positive way). In other words, what they were like back then. They were (relatively) kids back when they wrote that, not having experienced any true success, and having no singer, etc...i.e. They were having problems, but they still had hope...something that is usually lost with age. I think that mood comes through on the album, and that gives it an underlying energy.
On FII on the other hand, the guys are much older and more experienced. Most of them have families now. They've tasted some success, but then experienced the hard reality of the music industry itself. They've also gone through personal tragedies (JP losing his Dad). And once again this shows through the music. I think one of the best aspects of DT's music is that their way of looking at like comes through the music, and their way of looking at life has changed (like everybody else's usually does)
Ernesto
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:31:41 -0500 From: "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: To whomever posted about "National Health"... Message-ID: <342B3AAD.6490@auburn.net>
..Thank you!!!!!!!! I just got the double CD "National Health Complete" from CDNow for $17.99, and it is the kind of music that I like but rarely find. To me it sounds like Yes performing music written by Frank Zappa when he was in a weird mood. Very good stuff. I like it so much I haven't even played the Mastermind "Volume One" disc that came in the same package yet.
Why am I not listening to FII right now? I feel so guilty...
Mark Peters swifty@auburn.net
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:32:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3020 Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970925232256.790A-100000@short-eared.owlnet.rice.edu>
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Chris Ptacek wrote:
> >bands like DT trace their heritage back to this genre. Therefore, even if > >DT put out ten albums exactly like I&W in a row, we would still be > >justified in calling them "Progressive". > > So in light of their previous work, if the band kept playing the > same songs, but kept renaming them, you'd still call it progressive? I know > the Prog stigma would always be attached to the music sound, but would you > really call it progressive? I know I couldn't.
Maybe that was a poor choice of wording on my part. I didn't mean to imply "put out the same album ten times in a row"; rather, I meant ten albums in a row without changing their style. The point I was trying to make was that "progressive" refers to a specific genre of music and that calling a band "prog" implies nothing about how much their sound changes from album to album.
Mark McEuen mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:58:43 +1000 From: ~ME~ <breuric@acenet.com.au> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Met2 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970926145843.007136d8@acenet.com.au>
Sorry if youve heard this before - I'm having trouble keeping up with jams.
This was posted recently on the Perpetual Motion board.
>Posted by Patrick Fillion on September 25, 1997 at 14:56:18: > >I have read 2 articles this week, one with James Labrie and the other with John Petrucci. The first was in BWBK, in this one >James said that METROPOLIS 2 is a pretty intense song and that the true are gonna FREAK when they will hear this song. > >The second article was in GUITAR WORLD, the guy said to John :"do you think your fan are gonna be disapointed because >the new album is a litle bit less progressive", John said "for those people we have a song called METROPOLIS PART 2 and >this is the most INSANE song we have ever writen, this is a 25 min song and we will record this one as soon as we can". > >Wow, i can't wait!!!
Later -zajk
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:57:28 -0500 From: cmustard@netdot.com (Mark Lampert) To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: SFASU Jammers? Hello? Message-ID: <19970926045225718.AAA184@cmustard.vonl.com>
Ahoy,
Is ANYONE on the jam at (or going to) SFASU? I'm going out of my mind having to listen to the bastard next door to my room blast Weezer and not having anyone to talk music with. Save a life... email me. · • Colonel Mustard • ·
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:02:48 -0700 From: "James Bennett" <rycher@thegrid.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Good Point Message-ID: <01bcca39$6f00c7c0$e9663cd1@i574747.thegrid.net>
>I guess what I'm trying to say bottom line is that I totally agree with what >you said in your post, but in the incredibly mixed environment of this >mailing list sometimes the ignorant posts breed ignorant replies. All >we can do is shout what we think out loud in here
Couldn't have said it better myself Dave. Emotions are running high- thats one thing easy to see from the posts we are seeing from both sides of the argument... This reminds me so much of when "Hear in the Now Frontier" came out for all of the Ryche fans out there (like me) Or "Signals" come to think of it (to a lesser degree) for Rush fans....... or the Black album......etc...etc... :-)
James
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:19:37 -0700 From: Jim Beavens <jbeavens@ichips.intel.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: maturing Message-ID: <199709260519.WAA29922@ichips.intel.com>
Ya know, I hear this alot, about how a band matures from their earlier works...Rush, Queensryche, even Metallica. Now I'm hearing it about Dream Theater. People always look back on their old albums and say things like they were derivative, unfocused, and how they're latest releases are more mature.
All I have to say to that is, give me immaturity any day!!!
That's one of the reasons this list is so great, because I can keep an eye out for that next great band, and catch them while they're still immature! 8^)
Jim
-- Jim Beavens <jbeavens@ichips.intel.com> | If I had a witty remark that MD6 Design Engineer, Intel Corp, Hillsboro OR | would better the lives of my -=(UDIC)=- Subconscious Dragon -=(UDIC)=- | fellow mankind, do you really ** I don't speak for Intel ** | think I would put it HERE?
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:24:50 +0000 From: "Dale R. Newberry" <Dale.R.Newberry@MO.NET> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: FII and other things Message-ID: <199709260523.AAA13914@Walden.MO.NET>
I've been a little silent lately from the jam, but I wanted to say that FII is a totally kick ass album. Lines in the Sand kills me with Doug Pinnick's vocals and everything. I really dig on the songs. I am very pleased to finally hear Myung's bass and such up front in the mix. No comments on the lyrics yet since I haven't gone through them in depth yet. I also picked up a few used CDs at the same time I got FII. One CD was by a band called Mason Lane. I got a sample tape from someone with some songs by them on it a while back. I can't remember who, but if it was a jammer, thanks. Very cool proggish rock stuff. Cheers.
Dale R. Newberry "People will watch anything, as long as it's dumb." -Beavis "There's a fine line between stupid and clever." -David St. Hubbins
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 1:25:26 EDT From: Christopher Bellardine <chris154@clam.rutgers.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: THANK YOU DREAM THEATER Message-ID: <CMM-RU.1.5.875251526.chris154@clam.rutgers.edu>
I would like to personally thank Dream Theater for this tremendous album. I know that members of DT read the posts, and I am feel pretty lucky to Dream Theater in this world. Hell, I'm still absorbing certain awake songs, and now I have the pleasure of growing with this one. I really hope Dream Theater makes the mainstream market big. I did not want I&W, Awake, ACOS, or WDADU for that matter. I got what I wanted: A new "Progressive" sound from my favorite band. To quote MP from Live in Tokyo after crossing Abbey Road: "I fucking love it." This was the most anticipated CD of my life, and my mind and body feel relieved right now. It's amazing how a $17 CD can lift a persons "mind-frame." Maybe I'm weird or something, but I get Body-Chills when I hear really good music. On my 4th or 5th listen my body started going into a "groovin chill fest", and I am currently in heaven. Right now it's better than sex, and my new girlfriend and I got some chemistry going on. I wonder if she would get jealous if I told her that I was "Falling In Love with Infinity." Or maybe I'll just have to play Anna Lee her when she's ready ya know "fore-play music" Sorry so long, but I was getting a little tired of everyone comparing this to I&W and bitching about production. But I will faithfully continue to read on even if I do hardly post. Thanks for letting me Take the Time to let out the Voices Inside My Head, now I'm Deep in Heaven.
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:33:02 +0900 From: s963713@ipe.tsukuba.ac.jp (SUZUKI Jun'ya) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Regarding Bonus tracks of Japanese edition FII CD Message-ID: <199709260533.OAA23726@icho.ipe.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Hi Again,
>Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:45:31 -0400 >From: <calfaro@caribe.net> > >could yo utell us?? its in japanese... and really small Jpg too.. >thanx .. take care
Actual jpg is not small. you have to download it and view in original size...
It's very easy to tell the details but it's not pleasant :^)
Hope you can get the info... ---------------------------------------- SUZUKI Jun'ya http://www.ipe.tsukuba.ac.jp/~s963713/
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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:02:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3017 Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.970926015532.43212A-100000@elk.uvm.edu>
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 ytsejam@ax.com wrote: > > ]From Richard A Rivera: > > (Concerning Peruvian Skies): > > "Bottom line: it might grow on me but for now Ill be hitting SKIP." > > OK, so I'm thinking... huh? If you're going to give the song a chance, > let it grow on you or whatever, I'd say that skipping it is probably not > the most effective way to do so...
Good point. The key phrase in my original point is "for now." Right now it's not one of my favorites, so I'll skip it when I can. I'm sure I'll come back to it eventually (sortta like I did with "Voices," "The Mirror," SDV, and LTL). But for now there are other songs on the disc that I would MUCH rather listen to. In truth however, my stereo doesn't take kindly to skipping songs (D-Man can attest to that) so I've actually had to listen to PS a lot more than I intended to. And you know what? It's starting to grow on me...a little. Time will tell.
Richie
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3023 **************************
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