YTSEJAM Digest 3041
Today's Topics:
1) Desrtoy the grammar nazi
by Matt Robbins-McDaniel <cfi@disknet.com>
2) Re: Some thoughts...
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
3) Grammatical message...
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
4) Re: Desrtoy the grammar nazi
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
5) New FAQ update!
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
6) Dream Theater sold out ...
by Ravens <jarle@oslo.mail.telia.com>
7) Re: Koba's bit on YNM
by Sean T Gill <stg@csd.uwm.edu>
8) Understanding of complex music
by Dave Silva <silva@physci.psu.edu>
9) Re: APSoG: One song or more?
by MrQ <mrq@mail.utexas.edu>
10) NDTC hanson
by Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com>
11) YtseCon in CA...Finally!
by Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>
12) FII quotes
by Steve Zebrowski <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
13) Re: Quick Questions
by Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il>
14) Well, NDTC big times
by Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il>
15) Your Response, Sir
by Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com>
16) Re: Understanding of complex music
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0500
From: Matt Robbins-McDaniel <cfi@disknet.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Desrtoy the grammar nazi
Message-ID: <342FCB94.2DEF@disknet.com>
> Um, to be totally accurate, "hair's" is also a contraction of the > words "hair is." So, actually, "hair's" would be more correct here > than "hairs," since in the sentence "you ask me why my hairs gray," > gray would be the verb. It's obvious, though, that the intended verb > is "is," because that other form is aqkward as hell - gramatically > correct, yes, but no one talks like that. Hence "why my hair's gray."
>
> (I'm taking a course this semester on natural language parsing. Don't > fuck with me about grammar. :)
Well, okay, I won't fuck with your grammar. How about your spelling
though? Check out your spelling of the work "awkward" above. Just a
typo? Maybe, but those who live in glass houses..... ;^)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:45:41 -0400
From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Some thoughts...
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970929104541.0103ce10@sol.eng.fore.com>
>And James LaBrie... IS THE FUCKING MAN!!! This album is the best he's ever
>been, by far! On I&W, I don't think he wrote all the melodies, and was
>kind of trying to replicate Chuckie D's style a little. Awake was a bit of
>a bad experiment in places, but on FII, he's developed his own style, and
>the vocal melodies are incredible.
Gotta disagree with this. Awake was hardly a 'bad experiment'. As far as
I'm concerened, Awake was the album to set all standards by, as far as
vocal lines go. You just can't argue with such masterpieces such as Voices
and Scarred. Some of the songs might not contain the talent of these two,
but none of the melody lines are inappropriate or boring. Whereas, on FII,
I seriously have to question some of the lines in NM and YNM. I hate the
verses. Considering these are the first 2 songs, it almost completely
turned me off from the album. Luckily, PS is third, and it saved the album.
KAI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:53:14 -0300 (EST)
From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Grammatical message...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970929114620.677B-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Brian Reeves wrote:
> > BURNING MY SOUL
> > - "and you ask me why my HAIRS (should be HAIR'S) gray."
> >
> Absolutely unforgivable if you ask me.
> One correction though - HAIRS nor HAIR'S is correct in this
> sentence." Hair Is" would be right. HAIR'S is a posessive as in
Well, I'm not a natural English speaker, but I feel that "hair's"
can be both genitive and a contraction of "hair is", isn't it?? Please,
correct me if I'm wrong... You know, this list is also cultural. :-)
> "My HAIR's oder is quite fragrant"
^^^^
Wouldn't it be odor? :-)
[]s taking a bath in 5 minutes from now, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:04:41 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Desrtoy the grammar nazi Message-ID: <199709291504.LAA21561@me.cs.wm.edu>
> Well, okay, I won't fuck with your grammar. How about your spelling > though? Check out your spelling of the work "awkward" above. Just a > typo? Maybe, but those who live in glass houses..... ;^)
Yeah, ya got me, but check the spelling of your subject. Two can play at *that* game.
Wow, I'm bored. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:47:39 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com, voices@arastar.com Subject: New FAQ update! Message-ID: <199709291447.KAA21454@me.cs.wm.edu>
Hi again folks. I decided to do a little work to the FAQ this morning, after all the recent discussion. :) Other than an e-mail correction and the new URL for the French mirror site, the major changes are Question 6.31 about the Chapman Stick (because I knew the answer already :) and two additional Misheard Lyrics.
Let me know if you have any additions, corrections, or suggestions! And by all means, let me know if you are mirroring the FAQ and you're not listed in the mirror sites.
-Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:01:12 +0100 From: Ravens <jarle@oslo.mail.telia.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Dream Theater sold out ... Message-ID: <34312248.A70C4510@oslo.mail.telia.com>
To all you wonderful ppl out there ... I convinced my friend here in norway to buy this new wonderful cd ... guess which one ? Of course, FII ;) But when we came to the store, they had no more copies left, and told us that the record company was sold out too ... also, they said that Dream Theater was the heavy rock band they sold the most copies of, except of course; Metallica :)
I guess I am not the only one who love their music ... 3 days ago they had 10 copies left in the store that I saw ;))
Ravens
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:16:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Sean T Gill <stg@csd.uwm.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Koba's bit on YNM Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970929100320.26671A-100000@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>
> ynm- ok, i imagine someone here will disagree, which will be nice. this song > really disappoints me. it starts off soooooooo good. we got a will calhoun > drum lick in the beginning, and and very slick and evil verse. the > "pre-chorus" may be one of the better-written parts of dt music ever......all > this, to lead into the most pointless chorus EVER. the chorus itself is > well-written, but itDOESN'T FIT what came before it. a theory rule i learned > is that you don't leave something unresolved and go into something different, > much like in this song. it's for this that i love and hate this song.
Do you mean that the chorus doesn't fit in a theoretical sense or an aesthetic sense? It shure fits as far as the chords and notes go, but maybe you were expecting an evil slinky chorus to follow the evil slinky verse. Instead we get kind of a power ballad chorus. Besides, rules were made to be broken (just ask Beethoven, Ives, Parker, Monk etc...). Life would be dull if we always colored inside the lines. I kinda get the impression though that DT wrote the verses and Desmond Child wrote the chorus.
I just noticed that James goes "uh!" at the beginning of the solo section. I don't know 'bout that...
TTFN- Sean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:51:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Silva <silva@physci.psu.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Understanding of complex music Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970929113913.1269D-100000@marge.physci.psu.edu>
Alright, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing something like.... "I've been a guitarist for 15 years and I therefore have some deeper understanding of music than non-musicians"
Guess what. Playing an instrument very well in no way gives a deeper understanding of music. I don't know how many glam bands had very good guitarists, but their ability at writing music was obviously quite sub-par.
Some of the greatest composers of all time probably only played one instrument, piano. This in no way inhibited them from writing amazing music for other instruments.
The ONLY thing that a long-time playing guitarist can tell me is the difficulty of a certain passage. The actual notes he plays I can understand quite well and can relate to the entire song. I can therefore make a judgement about how I feel the guitarist did at writing that particular passage. I don't need another guitarist to explain the MUSIC to me.
Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood and feel like bitching.
And non-musicians. Don't let a musician tell you that your opinion is less important than theirs.
And for all you musicians, I played piano for 11 years and guitar for 3.
Regards,
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:19:59 -0500 From: MrQ <mrq@mail.utexas.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: APSoG: One song or more? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970929111957.0068b200@mail.utexas.edu>
> Noticing this discussion about Fates Warning's "A Pleasant Shade > of Gray" (aka APSoG) I thought I'd let my *ears* decide how many > songs there might be on this item. Yeah sure, it's an album made > up of twelve unnamed parts, but does APSoG really sound like one > long song? Here's what my ears came up with: > > Song #1: Parts 1 & 2 > Song #2: Part 3 > Song #3: Parts 4 & 5 > Song #4: Part 6 > Song #5: Parts 7 & 8 > Song #6: Part 9 > Song #7: Parts 10 & 11 > Song #8: Part 12 > > Gee, there's almost a pattern in there. 2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1. Anyway, > does this make any sense or am I completely out of line again ?
Well, why don't you think of this. Does ACOS sound like ONE song? No, it sounds like 7 small songs. Does "Supper's Ready" sound like ONE song? Does "2112" sound like ONE song? Come on People this is progressive music and songs going through many changes is nothing new. What is amazing about APSOG is the feeling that runs through the whole thing. The song changes drastically throughout but the overall feeling remains constant. Understand now?
-"Q"
THE VOID - http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/club/4605
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Daugherty <pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com> To: Dream Theater Mailing List <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: NDTC hanson Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970929133051.13275A-100000@bdmserver>
I was reading the gossip part of the Parade magazine that comes in the Sunday newspaper nad it stated that the group Hanson is made up of all boys. I was blown away as I had thought the two short ones were girls. What's the deal with society when2 young boys want to wear makeup and look like girls. ASnd the thing is young girls apparently love them.
Just Let Me Breathe...
|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Pat Daugherty pdaugher@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com | |===================================================================| | New Dream Theater-September 23, 1997 *** Washington Redskins 3-1 | | Congrats to the American League East Champion Baltimore Orioles!! | |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:47:07 -0700 From: Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: YtseCon in CA...Finally! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970929094707.007c9430@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>
I would be in favor of that...Any hope of DT being there? Didnt think so : )
Jon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:46:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Zebrowski <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: FII quotes Message-ID: <199709291646.MAA27091@umbc8.umbc.edu>
> In the stream of consciousness > There is a river crying > Living comes much easier > Once we admit , We're dying. > Dream Theater: Lines in the Sand > http://premium.caribe.net/~calfaro > mailto:calfaro@caribe.net mailto:progboy@mindless.com > Universal Internet Number (ICQ) 1254229
This quote almost inspired me to create a new .sig file for myself, but I see someone has already beat me to it. This is the best part of the album, IMO.
Steve Z
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:29:35 +0200 From: Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Quick Questions Message-ID: <342FD76F.76B4@Netvision.net.il>
Christopher R. Merlo wrote: > And if I see one more stupid-ass question, or one more "unsubscribe me" > message, I'm going postal. *Everyone* that does stupid shit gets a copy of > the FAQ. >
Well, I don't know about that.
D-Man, you have to think one step forward. The FAQ is about 100K and it's text. Which means it can compress easily. Why don't you send the DT Doom level which is a 600K zip file? has a much wider effect. Also, if we ever wanna mailbomb anyone, this is the file to send.....
Or, if you can program a bit, create a program that makes a file full of random ascii shit... like a 2 meg file of ascii... cannot be compressed even a bit and has the advantage of not knowing what hit them.... (I guess you know who to blame when you get 1200 DT FAQS....)
Just thinking one step ahead,
-- Shai Yallin - Kurush on #YTSEJAM
"I'm American, honey. Our names don't mean shit." - Bruce Willis on Pulp Fiction
"How can you keep your head and not go insane when the only light at the end of the tunnel is another train" - Mike Portnoy
Visit my home page at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/3247
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:06:05 +0200 From: Shai Yallin <Yallin@Netvision.net.il> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Well, NDTC big times Message-ID: <342FDFFD.378A@Netvision.net.il>
Hi all!
This is absolutly NDTC but after I read Neil Gallop's post about the 'N' word, I thought you guys might like it.
This is a poster found in a pub in Australia, and my History teacher gave it to our class today:
Socialism: You have two cows and you give one to your neighbor.
Communism: You have two cows. The government takes them and gives you the milk.
Fascism: You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk.
Natzism: You have two cows. The government takes them and shoots you.
Birocratism: You have two cows. The government takes them; shoots one; milks the other one and throws the milk away.
Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy an ox.
Hope I translated all of the big words right.... I have a feeling I spelled Birocratism wrong... If so, i'm sure the grammer n&^% will correct my mistakes....
By the way: a grammer n%#$ is like the soup n%$# ?
That would be all....
-- Shai Yallin - Kurush on #YTSEJAM
"I'm American, honey. Our names don't mean shit." - Bruce Willis on Pulp Fiction
"How can you keep your head and not go insane when the only light at the end of the tunnel is another train" - Mike Portnoy
Visit my home page at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/3247
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:53:00 -0500 From: Chris Ptacek <someone@prognosis.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: "S.D.D." <103430.227@compuserve.com> Subject: Your Response, Sir Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970929165300.00e5e23c@pop.enteract.com>
>From: "S.D.D." <103430.227@compuserve.com> >Subject: Falling back into the jam? > >Chris (& YTSEJAM), > >I must point out a glaring double standard that any sober reading of your >correspondence would reveal. You seem to indicate that DT, or any other >artist(s), can express anything they desire for the sake of >"limitation-less" art and should not be questioned or given honest >feedback/advice;
Wrong. I never said that. I said that no one has the right to tell Dream Theater what changes they should make. No one has the right to tell them they should add another instrumentalist, etc. Give your feedback, etc, but know that you just aren't qualified to give them advice on what would make them a better band. You don't know what would make them a better band, or your own musical works would provide evidence of this. I say that they, as the creators of their art, should be the only ones involved in the art's creation. (You don't see me connecting the brush strokes on a Picasso) This is the only reason why I don't argue that YNM is just as great as everything else on the album... I like it, but it is, in a way, tainted by the fact that it's not coming straight from the band. It'd be no better if they took your advice.
>however, I, on the other hand, should not express MY >thoughts and feelings (in the form of a balanced album review in this >particular case) without being thoroughly criticized.
All posts are thoroghly criticized. Have no illusions. It's just not all posts that are responded to. You have the right to your opinions, but not the right to force them upon anyone (which includes the band). Your opinions are not art, but rather, the criticism of art. Such work is in no way immune to discussion. In theory, you have no business posting here at all, but that's Skadz's to decide. There's no double standard here (for those sober people, or as Clark would say, those of you with "MINDS"). I'm not supressing your opinion, just voicing my opinion that I think you're nuts to make suggestions of a professional musician's music. It limits the band's right to express themselves. Ever notice how (Unless you're really good friends with the musicians) most bands get very irritated if you tell them how to play or what to play.
>Many people are so blinded by their non-objective love for DT (and >stubbornly non-cognizant of that fact) that they read far too much into >everything (such as some supposedly redeeming value) and see only what they >want to see, but are unable to step back and discern the big picture.
There is nothing objective about music. Further, I do take some measure of insult at your implications of sycophancy. I like the music. That doesn't mean I'd buy Petrucci's used underwear. If they start making music I dislike, I may not sit about listening to it all day (but I probably wouldn't put so much effort into expressing my dislike of the band... I've learned that this is seen as pretty rude).
>wish people would stop being so emotional and defensive, and taking so >personally things that do not even pertain to them. The members of DT are >big boys, can accept genuine criticism, and they don't need anyone's "help" >to "defend" them.
And I'd say they don't need anyone's "help" in choosing who to have play what instrument, and what kind of music to play, wouldn't you agree? Maybe some people get a bit defensive... I guess it just balances out those of you who are offensive because you dislike the music (not really you in this case, but several, several posts have been rude and offensive with regard to this album.)
>philosophy of art. The music industry is overflowing with such subjective, >no-rules, "let's express ourselves" music - music that basically >self-edifies the artist(s) (i.e. skill, fun, catharsis, ego, attention, >money, sex, power, etc.). Whereas music should really lean more toward the >edification of the LISTENER more often than not.
Bullshit. How do you justify your claims on what music should or shouldn't be? Isn't that perhaps the most subjective of all music related arguments? There's no way you can back up such an opinion based statement. The way music is, is a fact. The way music should be, is an opinion.
>And here's a surprise sidenote for you Chris - I am myself technically >within the "Generation X" age group of which I referred to before, and if >you had done any serious sociological research in this area, you too would >easily draw the same conclusions (which are, of course, only >generalizations, as I clearly stated previously).
This has little relevance to the discussion, but I _have_ done research on this topic. That I wouldn't know you were a part of Generation X only means I have no idea how old you are. But thanks...
> I appreciate your comments Chris, but this needs to be our last >correspondence. I just don't have the time right now for maintaining >an on-going correspondence of this sort.
If you don't have time to discuss something, then don't respond. It's that simple. If you leave a trail or what I consider faulty logic, I'm going to follow it, generally. If you want no further discussion, delete this post. Don't provide a partial counter-argument and expect me not to follow up.
>etc.), and, thus, there's syncretism, doubt, confusion, bitterness, >discontentment and searching, but no strong Christian faith (which is >indeed sad).
Thus the darker theme of the album. Not sad as in "a pitiful conception"
I do apologize if you feel badly for my having responded, but this is a forum for discussion. If you don't have time to discuss the topics, then you might consider not posting. Communication is not one-way, and this is a list devoted to its subscribers, not to those poeple who just want to say something now and then. You might also consider, should you post in the future, not just eloquently saying "you're wrong", but also refuting those points in an opposing argument that would strike down your initial statements. It's a popular Ytse-Rebuttal to say "You make a weak argument" and then move on, without addressing the "weak" points in the "weak" argument. If the argument is weak, it should be easier to defeat. When someone ignores that, they merely provide evidence that they are unable to refute the issues. (You are not nearly as bad as most... I'm just making a statement for everyone who I've seen do this).
Take care
- CWP
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:04:13 -0400 From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Understanding of complex music Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970929120413.01051e90@sol.eng.fore.com>
Dave Silva wrote:
>Guess what. Playing an instrument very well in no way gives a deeper >understanding of music. I don't know how many glam bands had very good >guitarists, but their ability at writing music was obviously quite >sub-par.
>And non-musicians. Don't let a musician tell you that your opinion is >less important than theirs.
Sounds like a bit of hypocrisy here. You say that no one's opinion is less important than anyone else's, yet you state that a glam band's ability to write music is OBVIOUSLY sub-par. Considering that I think glam is super-par writing, and that my opinion isn't any less important than yours, you sub-par statement has been refuted. Think before you write.
KAI
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3041 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 17:59:55 EST