YTSEJAM Digest 3754
Today's Topics:
1) Re: The way it used to be
by Mauricio Martinez Villarreal <al769526@mail.mty.itesm.mx>
2) Re: The way it used to be
by Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
3) DT at Irving Plaza (NYC)
by "Pasqual Zottola" <pasqualz@hotmail.com>
4) Re: SONY SUCKS!
by Haje Jan Kamps <hajejan@mail.geocities.com>
5) Re: The way it used to be
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
6) Re: The way it used to be
by "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
7) Re: Radiohead
by eckie@asu.edu
8) Re: Bahr Wars Epilog - if I may ?
by eckie@asu.edu
9) Sony stuff...
by Deedlit <ebonomi@scott.skidmore.edu>
10) Tour thru Texas
by "James C. Shields" <jimbob213@mail.utexas.edu>
11) Savatage's "Japan Live '94"
by Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
12) Re: Savatage's "Japan Live '94"
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
13) Mumblings and Jumblings.
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
14) Re: Sony Sucks!!!! (NDTC)
by Martinez Francois Juan Ramon-IND <jramon@servidor.unam.mx>
15) Sony and Bootlegs
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
16) Sony crap
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
17) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3753
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:41:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mauricio Martinez Villarreal <al769526@mail.mty.itesm.mx>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: The way it used to be
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.980416123708.36914D-100000@afs07.mty.itesm.mx>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Christopher R. Merlo wrote:
>
> Mauricio observed:
>
> > Hey, it s just an observation, i m not saying that DT were doing U2 in
> > that song, but maybe that song could pass as a U2 song IMO.
Well, without the solos, i get MUCH colser! :)
>
> It's close, but it ain't *that* close! :) I look at FII (and the songs that
> didn't make it) as the period in DT's songwriting life where they really,
> really wore their influences on their sleeves, so to speak. You can hear the
> M-word and Floyd in "Peruvian Skies," the Sting in "Hollow Years," the U2 in
> "TWIUTB," etc...
Yup, HW suggests Sting. Even on the begginning of James s singing. Dont
be afraid, say that M-word! :_)
> > Now, that song it s supposed to be a DEMO, is there a definitive version,
> > or that version was meant to be on FII, but had to be cut from it?
>
> Every song (including the ones on the album) was demoed. That's just how the
> system works. Then they picked 11 of them to record somewhere nicer than JP's
> basement (or wherever they did the demos), and that became the album. The
> songs that weren't selected were never (at least, as far as I know, and maybe
> MP could clarify if I'm wrong) re-recorded after they were demoed.
>
Well, even if it s a demo, it sound s GREAT to me! (Are DT demos made in
8 tracks or DAT S or what?
Mauricio
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:47:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: The way it used to be
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980416134649.21289A-100000@shell.monmouth.com>
Well, then, if the demos sound so professional, and they do, why bother to
rerecord them inthe studio. I think DT should just produce themselves. I
mean, it would be nice to have a producer to do what Rush's producers do,
but me thinks they are more than capable of producing themselves, and this
would destroy any rumors of producers mucking with DT's songs.
-- Damon Fibraio, damon@monmouth.com Keyboardist, Vocalist, musical slut "One likes to believe in the freedom of music But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity."--Rush, 1980------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:09:48 PDT From: "Pasqual Zottola" <pasqualz@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: DT at Irving Plaza (NYC) Message-ID: <19980416180949.27312.qmail@hotmail.com>
I've ordered my tickets to the show! Can't wait, I work in midtown Manhattan, so it should be a short subway ride to the show. Has anyone been to Irving Plaza before? I know that it's general admission, but are there better and worse areas to stand? At the 10/25/97 Toad's show in CT., I was two rows deep right in front of Petrucci, this time I'd like to be on the stage, and a little more towards Labrie. Oh well, enough of the bullshit, I'll see all you tri-state (and beyond?) DT fans there!!
Pasqual
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:15:49 -0400 From: Haje Jan Kamps <hajejan@mail.geocities.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: SONY SUCKS! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980416141541.006bca44@mail.geocities.com>
>Allow me to jump on this thread. I also have a Walkman sitting in a dresser >drawer. In addition, I have a boom-box-thingie (from a number of years ago) >that simply stopped working after about a year and a half. And finally, my >cordless phone. Ask anyone that's had a phone conversation with me for more >than an hour and a half what a pain it is to hang up and wait for my phone to >re-charge.
I once had a discman. I once had a walkman. I once had a computer monitor.
When will SONY start to supply sledgehammers with their products?
Haje Jan +----------------+ \ Haje Jan Kamps \ +-----------------+----------------+ \ http:home.sol.no/~lrovers/haje/ \ +----------------------------------+
Carry me to the shoreline bury me in the sand walk me across the water and maybe you'll understand -Dream Theater : Hollow Years
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:45:28 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: The way it used to be Message-ID: <199804161845.OAA19560@daffy.cs.wm.edu>
Mauricio asked:
> Well, even if it s a demo, it sound s GREAT to me! (Are DT demos made in > 8 tracks or DAT S or what?
It depends on what you want to use. I've done 4-track analog demos and 24-track digital demos. It's all a matter of what you have available. (BTW, there are things about the 4-track analog demo I made a year ago that I like a whole lot better than the 24-track digital one I made three years ago. As Eric Clapton would say, "it's in the way that you use it.")
I would assume (again, if anyone *coughmikecough* can correct me, please do) that DT has at their disposal some high-tech recording stuff.
The short answer, of course, is "I don't know." :) -d
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:49:10 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: The way it used to be Message-ID: <199804161849.OAA19575@daffy.cs.wm.edu>
> > Well, then, if the demos sound so professional, and they do, why bother to > rerecord them inthe studio. I think DT should just produce themselves.
I can't think of a whole lot of bands that sound really really good self-produced. Spock's Beard and Led Zeppelin come immediately to mind (and many may disagree). But, by and large, the reason a band gets a producer is to give objective opinions on your work. It's often difficult, if not impossible, to critique your own work to the point that you're willing to make the kind of changes DT did to their material. It's usually equally difficult to tell yourself that you sound bad, and something's worth doing over. That's what the job of the producer is.
"You can play that more cleanly." "Nah, man, that's my best." "Try it again." .. "Wow, you were right! That *is* better!"
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:54:42 -0700 (MST) From: eckie@asu.edu To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Radiohead Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980416114547.22934A-100000@general5.asu.edu>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Chris Bowsman lathered, rinsed, and washed:
> I really don't think Radiohead is the least bit mainstream rock.
Nah, Radiohead? Pshaw....MTV airplay? Radio airplay? Nahhh. Not Radiohead....
> Ever > listen to any songs besides "Creep" of "Karma Police"? OK Computer is > not at all mainstream, and even the first single off of it, "Paranoid > Android" is not really radio-friendly at all.
Yeah, that's what Serena Altshul said right after MTV finished playing the Paranoid Android video AGAIN, precluding the MTV news interview with the band. If MTV says it's not mainstream, then it isn't, dammit! I don't care if Paranoid Android WAS in regular rotation on MTV and the local trendy radio stations, MTV's right! They tell it like it is in the REAL world!
>;P
> The Bends and Pablo Honey > are not mainstream albums, either, by any means.
I don't mean to knock the band or Chris, but this whole point of view is just, well, stupid :). It's like saying Metallica isn't a mainstream band. Whoops...did I just use the "M" word? Tar and feather me now and get it over with....
Or maybe the entire post was in sarcastic jest and I'm lookin' like a bafoon right now....
~Eckie eats another banana and poops on the carpet
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:57:55 -0700 (MST) From: eckie@asu.edu To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Bahr Wars Epilog - if I may ? Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980416115639.22934B-100000@general5.asu.edu>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, J?rgen C. Bakken spelled his name with a silent question mark:
> It's the fragging Internet for Pete's sake, you never gonna get up close > and personal with him. > Roll end credits.
But wait...who the hell is Pete?
~Eckie wasted bandwidth...oopsy :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:13:54 -0400 From: Deedlit <ebonomi@scott.skidmore.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Sony stuff... Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980416151354.006a3b60@scott.skidmore.edu>
Okay, well, I have dropped my discman about 2-3 feet several times, and it still works...worked. It suddenly decided to go A-wall on Tuesday. Then I hit it, and it worked again. <g> Needless to say, it's a decent product, but, with abuse, it ain't gunna last long.
As far as OTHER Sony components (I discussed this with some stereophiles), the 80's CD players and stereo components were quite good, but as CD's became the industry standard, demand for home CD players went up, so did production, and you all know what happens from there. The best home equipment is the bizarre stuff you find in AUDIO or STEREOPHILE magazines hehe (yay Pioneer Elite! ;).
Discmans, boomboxes, and walkmans are made in such bulk and sold at prices which result in low quality, nowadays. Don't expect anything more than ephemeral precision from these items! :}
Pessimism and Capitalism work hand in hand.
Erica
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Erica Bonomi, ebonomi@skidmore.edu Deedlit or Deedo on irc.dreamt.org 2112 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.skidmore.edu/~ebonomi/ Check here for the mp3 of the week! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:22:31 -0500 From: "James C. Shields" <jimbob213@mail.utexas.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Tour thru Texas Message-ID: <l03102800b15c05002628@[128.83.112.153]>
I just signed on to the list, and I'm reading stuff about people buying tix= for DT shows in CA and New England. Where can I find a full tour update? I= tried dreamt.org Wed nite, but there was only stuff about Europe on the= tour listing. Are there Texas dates planned?
James C. Shields Undergraduate University of Texas at Austin
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D- Spread before you is your soul So forever hold the dreams within our hearts Through Nature's inflexible grace I'm Learning to Live "Learning to Live" Dream Theater =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:26:55 +1000 From: Chris Groves <cdgroves@postoffice.utas.edu.au> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Savatage's "Japan Live '94" Message-ID: <l03020902b15c0b7212c4@[131.217.133.78]>
Alex Skolnick was indeed the guitarist on the Japan Live 94 CD, and what's this about a couple of people saying they have no liner notes??? My Japan Live 94 CD booklet has a band list, including Alex, as well as a bunch of pictures clearly showing it's him, if you know what he looks like. :) And then there's the white booklet with the lyrics and the Japanese writing (presumably a Japanese translation of the lyrics), and all that...... No booklets? Hmm......
e trade =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00&K;=D6= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=E3F=00=00=08=DD=00=00=04 =02=0005/02/1998100037:18 1998=00=00=00=00=00=00
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:20:53 -0600 From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Savatage's "Japan Live '94" Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980416132051.006d00b8@postoffice.syspac.com>
At 12:38 PM 4/16/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Alex Skolnick was indeed the guitarist on the Japan Live 94 CD, and what's >this about a couple of people saying they have no liner notes??? >My Japan Live 94 CD booklet has a band list, including Alex, as well as a >bunch of pictures clearly showing it's him, if you know what he looks like. >:)
I've got the video. It's Alex. No doubt about it. Only thing is, I've heard that he biffed a few solos so badly, that Chris Caffrey (Alex's replacement, and also on Gutter Ballet) actually overdubbed solos for the CD and video of this performance. Just a rumour, though.
I'm off to play a heated game of Excitebike, laterz,
Peace and love, and good happiness stuff, ~Vince
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/6933 | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:52:01 -0600 From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Mumblings and Jumblings. Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980416135200.006eeee0@postoffice.syspac.com>
Steve Zebrowski wrote: >I was just watching a Saturday night Live rerun on Comedy Central and the >musical guest was Bon Jovi. It was from the Keep the Faith era, and they >played Bed of Roses and Wanted: Dead or Alive. Bed or Roses was >good--it's a very well-written song--but not a classic or anything.
/me shivers.
>I am continually amazed by >the blend of Jon's and Richie's voices. Richie is the perfect foil for >Jon. The guitar sound was big and ballsy.
HAHAHA!!!! Oh my, that's a good one :) Thanks for the laugh Steve :) Big and ballsy...hahaha. As compared to what? Hanson?
>but this was SNL--a stage where even Metallica had to >scale down to club-size proportions. And IMO, Metallica didn't pull it >off.
Yeah man, ever BON JOVI isn't as bad as the horrid Metallica, right?
>Plus, you can say what you want about their music, but I think it would be >impossible for Bon Jovi to sound like crap.
/me shivers again. I think Steve just wants Portnoy to lay him down in a bed of roses.
Moving on...
Mark Philpot wrote: >OH MY GOD! I nearly had an orgasm!
So what! You're a man, it's not much of an accomplishment. Shit man, I have orgasms every time I sneeze. I'm just happy I have Sinusitis :)
Markus Stahl wrote about Divine Regale: >I have their CD "OceanMind" and it kicks serious ass. >My local Tower Records actually has a copy(in the Death Metal section for >some reason). If you can't find it let me know if you would like me to pick >it up for you.
Or if anyone wants my copy, $8 will cover everything. I wasn't impressed with them, but they're a good band IMO. E-mail me if interested. VGL@syspac.COM
Jani Liimatainen wrote: >I received my "Savatage Japan live '94" yesterday, and I was just >wondering if someone could tell me who is(/are) the guitarist(s) on the >album.It's the Handful of Rain-Tour,so could it be Skolnick?
Hmm...maybe it meant something when Zak said "And our good friend ALEX SKOLNICK on guitar" at the show. I dunno, but that may be a hint :)
J?rgen C. Bakken wrote about the Merlo/Bahr saga: >Chrisopher, Michael you are both wrong and right.
A greater philosopher has never graced the ytsejam before.
Speaking of the Almighty D-Man... >I've bought my last Sony product.
I dunno, my computer monitor was bought in 1990, it's 1280 x 1024 resolution, SVGA, and it still kicks mucho ass, even for a meager 13" screen.
Mauricio wrote about "The Way U2 Used to Be" >I dont you about you guys, but upon hearing less than a minute of that >song for the first time, the first thought that came to mind was: U2!
Nah, I was thinking Morbid Angel. Total Morbid Angel :) Nah, I'm wrong, more like Slayer or K R E A T O R!!!!! Anyone ever heard Kreator? All I know about them is that a TON of indians wear kreator hats and shirts at every metal show I go to.
>From: eckie@asu.edu >Subject: Re: Radiohead
READ THIS POST AGAIN.
enough mindless blabber, I'm off!
Peace and love, and good happiness stuff, ~Vince
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/6933 | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:22:17 -0600 (CST) From: Martinez Francois Juan Ramon-IND <jramon@servidor.unam.mx> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Sony Sucks!!!! (NDTC) Message-ID: <199804162222.QAA19928@servidor.unam.mx>
Well, I also have a walkman in a drawer... But I've been kind of lucky, I've had a CD player for about 8 years now without a problem! and I once had a full working Sony car stereo for 5 years until my car was stolen. Still I think Kenwood is a much better brand.
Juan Ramon.
:0 :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:38:43 -0700 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Sony and Bootlegs Message-ID: <199804162138.OAA10679@gms.gmsnet.com>
I hereby declare that bootlegs are WRONG!!!
/me goes to look for his Sony DAT to dub summore bootlegs...
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:54:40 -0700 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Sony crap Message-ID: <199804162154.OAA10864@gms.gmsnet.com>
Here's a little more about Sony.
The fact is, Sony consumer stuff is pretty average. I dislike the Sony DSP in their consumer line of receivers as they sound dull. Where Sony shines is in the pro arena. Everyone uses their ProBeta cams for broadcasts, and a ton of mastering houses use the Sony Oxford Digital mixing/mastering system (24bit with 48bit internal paths) which includes 2 1/2" digital 24 track and external disc. I own two Sony DAT machines, which have served me without problems, I've had one other porta-DAT which was just old, and finally traded it in for a TCD-D100 which is just an amazing portable DAT for "capturing" your favorite live band. I also own a disc changer, an ES unit with SPDIF digital out and 45-bit filters which has served me well except for not wanting to leave the tray open sometimes when I eject the tray... :)
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:26:50 -0700 From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3753 Message-ID: <353685AA.321D@goodnet.com>
ytsejam@ax.com wrote:
Chris Merlo writes...
> > It's the fragging Internet for Pete's sake, you never gonna get up close > > and personal with him. > > Hey, Mike, remember the great time we had at the Birch Hill show *together*? > Or how about after YtseCon III playing laser tag *together*? Boy, that was a> hoot, huh?
Yeah, that was pretty cool. Or getting rowdy at the Fantazia diner and getting kicked out en masse... and before that, everyone freezing their asses off outside the Malibu, but then we all seemed to manage to get backstage... yep, that's the isolation of the net for ya. :)
Others write:
> God, I've had two Sony products: first, a Walkman which broke during the > warranty and they gave me a new one. Once the warranty was gone it broke > again. Now I have a Panasonic which never gavem me any problem.
Hands down the epitome of the Sony product is their Playstation. I've dealt with PSXes a lot because of mod-chipping them so that people can play CDRs on them. They are built with a weak carraige assembly on the pickup module, and as time goes by the assembly wears down and "leans" off center causing the discs to skip, then skip more, and finally fail to track at all, unless someone turns their PSX UPSIDE DOWN while they play. Simply unacceptable for a gaming system. Everyone's saying how the PSX is the shit right now, but we never had problems like that during the CARTRIDGE games era, and maybe that's why I know my SNES and N64 will be working fine in 2017 while I doubt my PSX or Saturn (which is only slightly better made) will be. If your PSX isn't skipping yet, don't worry, just give it time. Mine is a SCPH-1000, the very first ones released in 1995, and it took two years for it to wear down. Two years seems like a long time of good operation... until you consider that my SNES has worked fine for three times as long and there are no future problems in sight.
-- - Mike Bahr - Prism Records - d u r n i k @ g o o d n e t . c o m - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3754 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 18:08:53 EST