YTSEJAM Digest 4166
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Skipping tracks
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
2) Re: KevMo vs. DerShe
by "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org>
3) Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
4) Voivod accident
by "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org>
5) staying (or not) for ELP; yo, Damon; La Confidential; NM
by Devs0432@aol.com
6) Harvey's Lake tomorrow night / Out of "lurk" mode
by Brian Larkin <ambicwts@postoffice.ptd.net>
7) Re: 6:00 intro on guitar
by Calvin6S@aol.com
8) getting dates with music
by "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org>
9) Why have I been so philosophical lately? This sucks.
by "KorgX3" <korgx3@safelink.net>
10) DT in Brazil CONFIRMED!!!!
by "Daniel Alexandre Bonatti" <dbonatti@sti.com.br>
11) Bye, everybody
by "Paul Gregory Humm" <humm@levy.com>
12) email down
by Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com>
13) San Diego Jammers
by Bruce Duesterhoeft <bduesterhoeft@enter.net>
14) Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@linux.ime.usp.br>
15) Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS
by "Daniel Alexandre Bonatti" <dbonatti@sti.com.br>
16) Bad songs on FII? Give 'em a chance!
by Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@home.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:37:21 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Skipping tracks
Message-ID: <35cf84304709008@mhub3.tc.umn.edu>
Responding to the message of <v01510102b1f52db54b55@[194.7.231.125]>
from ytsejam@ax.com:
>
>
> On last night's Ytsejam,
> Vince French, while holding down the FFWD button, wrote:
>
> >On another note, FII is the first DT album on which there is a song (two
> >as a matter of fact) that I feel compelled to skip all the time. TAMP
> >and AL are the two songs that I usually always skip. Just don't really
> >enjoy them I guess. AL kinda sounds like a George Michael special. And
>
> How can you learn to enjoy them if you skip them? Just a thought.
Why should someone "learn" to enjoy something? If you don't like it, you don't
like it. Why brainwash yourself? That's just stupid.
-Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:43:50 -0400
From: "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: KevMo vs. DerShe
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980810194350.007abe60@pop3.afn.org>
>I liked Kevin's playing with DT.
>I like Derek's playing with DT.
>I think Kevin is a very good keyboardist and writer.
>I think Derek is a very good keyboardist and writer.
>
>What more need be said?
That Derek needs to get out there and kick more heinie. We all know
he can do it, we've heard him. But in the studio, well, you know how
Awake was as far as Kevin's involvement? That's FII.
>This KM vs. DS talk as been going on for months now. Hasn't everything been
>said? Can't we move on to something else? Maybe a more possitive topic.
What we need--what we NEED--is a new album. Wait for the live album,
that'll help, but we really need a new studio album.
Until then, the biggest thing we have to talk about is FII, and so you'll
naturally hear from the people who found it terribly disappointing. Wait
for the new album, and hope.
- Against a Sickness: To the Female Double Principle God
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4664
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:00:07 -0700
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS
Message-ID: <199808110000.RAA14455@gms.gmsnet.com>
Before being sacrificed upon the altar..., Matt Johnston thus begged:
>
>On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Dr. Mosh wrote:
>
>>Turn off your goddamn MIME and HTML.
>
>hrm. So you think that, by cussing at the problem, it will magically go
>away? Like, maybe the people who don't know they're in MIME or HTML
>because their readers can read it, or the ones who do know, but don't know
>how to chage it, will magically know they're annoying the PINE users and
>then miraculously figger out how to change it. trust me, yelling at a
>problem doesn't make it go away.
>
>For example, I still haven't gotten rid of my little sister. ^_^
>
>
>
>--Matt
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok then smartass... you have 24 hours to post a descriptive, IN DEPTH
documentation on how to do this in Netscape Mail, Eudora, and Outlook, if
I don't see a post by you in 24 hours on how to do this, I will ban you
from ytsejam... sound fair? get to it :)
-The Doc
p.s. I'm not kidding
-- L I S T E N - http://progmetal.gmsnet.com <> drkhoe@gmsnet.com <> "The music's dying, but its epitaph will say... it's not over yet." - Explorer's Club, AGE OF IMPACT, IMPACT 2 - FADING FAST------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:19:17 -0400 From: "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Voivod accident Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980810201917.007964c0@pop3.afn.org>
Pardon me for a moment, but *FUCK!!* Shit, does anything good ever fucking happen in this world? It's all awful.
BTW has Phobos been released in the US yet? Haven't seen it in any of the stores close enough for me to walk to.
- Against a Sickness: To the Female Double Principle God http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4664
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:19:26 EDT From: Devs0432@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: staying (or not) for ELP; yo, Damon; La Confidential; NM Message-ID: <3ad68d15.35cf7fff@aol.com>
>Personally I'd like to see Myung freak and beat the piss out of one of the security >gestapos.. Not only would it make standing at the show easier, but if timed >correctly, would have made me stay for ELP and DP =) I have to second that big-time. Not only would it be mind-boggling to witness such an event, but it might've covered up some of that keyboard...noise (for lack of a better word). Sorry for anyone who loves ELP (weird as that seems to me) but that shit was WAY too out there for me. It totally bugged me that they kept on showing Emerson on the screens as well, even when Palmer was beating some crazy good stuff away on his set. Ugh. Emerson was just mashing away at anything with keys..there were momentary lapses of melody, but that was about it. I had to flee the site, and missed DP, dammit.
>Btw,,, >for a 45 minute set, it was one hell of a show....
It most definitely was. Jones Beach just rocked my world last night. It only whetted my appetite, too...45 was just not enough..they flew by... At least we weren't the only ones grooving in our section, the couple in front of us had Awake and a Test for Echo shirts between them, I thought it was pretty cool.
-----------
]From: Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: condensation
>How many times do I have to explain this shit to you people? I am in bounce >mode. Just because the messages from me may appear in a row, doesn't mean >that the posts are in a row. ...<snip> Now, get off my dick
Hey bro, take a chill pill. If I was in a pissy mood (which I almost am) and if I was male (something I never shall be), then I might tell you to get off MINE. But seriously, man. I wasn't talking about your posts at all (although I do admit my generalization didn't help any in making that clear). I don't mind your posts, in fact I love reading them, and I also understand why it is that you DON'T do "condensing" of any kind. It wasn't you I was after. I was thinking of a more notable and recent case...no, I won't go there. I bet you're all breathing a collective sigh of relief (or whatever). SIGHTED people, even in ack mode, should be dumped unceremoniously on Route 4 (local highway) during rush hour. Get your hackles down, Damon, I wasn't aiming anything at you.
--------- >Rent "L.A. Confidential!" I just rented it, and what a great fucking movie! Um, I dunno but I can't agree to that. Maybe part of it comes from watching it with some of my good friends who just have no respect for the integrity of a movie while watching and totally tear it apart during viewing (this applies to rented movies, not the theater). However, other than the last quarter of so of it, and some few details sprinkled throughout the first bit, it wasn't all that great. It moved incredibly slowly in the beginning. DAMN though, that shoot-em-all-to-hell scene near the end was great ...
----------- >NM: Am I the only person who actually loves this song?
HELL no. I absolutely adore this piece, what a great kicker for the album. What a great kicker for a concert too, as I found out last night. Whew! *wipes sweat from brow* It was certainly very appropriate. I just wish the theater hadn't been so empty early in the show..
that's all for now, Alex
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:23:38 -0400 From: Brian Larkin <ambicwts@postoffice.ptd.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Harvey's Lake tomorrow night / Out of "lurk" mode Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980810202338.00772630@postoffice.ptd.net>
Hey,
If anyone's going to the DT/DP/ELP show tomorrow night at the Bud Light Amphitheater in Harvey's Lake, PA . . . let me know ASAP, and maybe we can arrange to meet somewhere before/after the show. I'll be in the front row wearing my TII shirt and a grey Quicksilver cap. :)
On a few side notes: Just recently got Sym X's _Twilight_in_Olympus_, and= =20 I must say this is some of the best stuff I've heard in a while. It's got= =20 that neoclassical Yngwie-ish sound I kinda like, but it's also nice and=20 heavy. :) My favorite track at the moment is "The Lion's Den"; I really=20 dig the opening riff and the Meshuggah-ish thing that's going on during=20 the verses. "Church of the Machine" is also a good one, if not for the=20 cheez-infested chorus.
On Derek's post: I guess it's cool that he just came out and told us how=20 it was straight-up, but I was *slightly* irked by the line about "playing=20 a lot of notes". I just like to think it's more than that. I think this=20 just reinforces the reasons I prefer KM's style over DS's -- Derek seems to= =20 be almost strictly technical, almost to the point where his playing lacks=20 the emotion I always love to hear in DT's music. Chops are great, and=20 Derek impresses the fuck out of me with his, but I can't help but wonder=20 when I see him play whether he's up there simply to impress chicks with his dazzling technique or because he loves the music. And if it's the former,= =20 I still don't think anyone really needs to know how many girls he bangs a week, etc. His personal life is NONE of our business whatsoever. All I can say is, I've met the guy, and I've exchanged emails with him once or twice,=20 and he rules. Let him be.
Lastly: Armanarasholes. You both annoy the shit out of me. Unsubscribe, please. Not that I read most of your posts anyway, I just don't like your attitudes. How old are you both? You sound like a pair of 14 year old=20 retards who just discovered progressive music and refuse to listen to=20 anything else because it is "inferior". This is a Dream Theater list. Not everyone here is a "die-hard" prog fan. Not everyone wants to hear about=20 how great "the Hanson of prog" is in every third digest. When you have some interesting opinions and ideas to contribute to this list, come back, and=20 maybe we'll forget how annoying you were. Until then, either unsub, or don't post.
This is all IMHO, of course. Flame away. :)
Out of "lurk", if only for a while, Brian
+=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D= -=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D+ | =DFrian Larkin --- E-mail: ambicwts@ptd.net | | Homepage in the works at Geocities . . . URL soon | +=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D= -=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D~=3D-=3D+
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:41:17 EDT From: Calvin6S@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: 6:00 intro on guitar Message-ID: <963a9529.35cf932f@aol.com>
In a message dated 8/10/98 2:41:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ytsejam@ax.com writes:
> > With a short look I noticed that my last post was a little fucked in > > the > > end. I eating my brains it seems. > > I meant the intro of 6:00 on guitar. > > Schnipp
Yes, I played this part on guitar because it is SOOOOOOOOO COOL. Hopefully it comes out readable. I was going to show where are the PICK HAND taps occur - but it should be pretty obvious. I modified it from the original line (slightly) to accomodate the guitar. I also think that when you tap out the diads on guitar it can get a little messy.
----------------------------------------------- -------------------15------15------------------ --------16---------14----7----12------17------- -----9-----14----7----5-----------10----15-20- --7-----------5------------------8------------- -----------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------ -----------------------6------------------------ --------16---------------17----8--15----6------- -----9-----14----7----------15-------13---18---- --7-----------5----17------------------------16- -------------------17---------------------------
------------------------------------------------ -------------------15------15---------9--16-14-- --------16---------14----7----12---8------------ -----9-----14----7----5----------6-------------- --7-----------5--------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------ --------------------13-13----13-13----13-13----- --------16----------12-12-7--12-12----12-12-7--- -----9-----14------7---------------7------------ --7-----------5-12------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:03:14 -0400 From: "earthblind, starbound" <afn39111@afn.org> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: getting dates with music Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980810210314.007b0dd0@pop3.afn.org>
You know, if I ever become a famous for singing in a prog band (hehehehe) and someone interviews me, I intend to say the only reason I'm doing it is to get dates. Well, a date.
Sort of better, I'd think, considering dream theater fans. I mean, you've already weeded out a lot of the idiots. Who wants to date someone you can't talk to?
Can't really blame Derek, I suppose.
- Against a Sickness: To the Female Double Principle God http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4664
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:03:00 -0600 From: "KorgX3" <korgx3@safelink.net> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Why have I been so philosophical lately? This sucks. Message-ID: <002401bdc4c3$d0ee8000$220d84d0@korgx3>
>Why should someone "learn" to enjoy something? If you don't like it, you >don't like it. Why brainwash yourself? That's just stupid.
How can you like something if you don't try it? Eh? Duh? :P Really, there's alot of stuff that I force myself to enjoy. And why? Here's something for you to ponder:
It's symbolic of an open-minded individual.
A person who make not like something firsthand may only have a simple stigma to overcome in order to enjoy it. There are times when there are flat out things that I can't force or teach myself to enjoy, i.e. certain smells, foods, sights (like rediculously overweight women in two piece bathing suits). But there are alot of things, especially musically that I've "learned" to enjoy. For example: Peruvian Skies and Lines in the Sand (gasp!). You know, I thought those were DT's lamest fucking songs for some reason. I can't really say why now. (shrug) I hated Doug Pinnick on LitS for a few months, then one day it just clicked and it was the coolest part of the album. I never would have thought so had I kept skipping the songs. I just made myself listen to them, and... there ya go. I guess it makes me a poser then or whatever. (shrug) Wanting to like something is far better than not giving it a chance, imo. Hell, I wouldn't have even liked Dream Theater PERIOD had I not forced myself to ingest it, since my friend liked 'em so much.
So, keep an open mind and keep your hands and feet in the cart at all times. And if you do stand up at the top and fly out, please try to enjoy the trip down while you can. Thank you for riding... --the Roller Korgster
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:00:58 -0300 From: "Daniel Alexandre Bonatti" <dbonatti@sti.com.br> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: DT in Brazil CONFIRMED!!!! Message-ID: <199808110204.XAA25356@patachou.sti.com.br>
Since it's confirmed - DT on Monsters of Rock on Sept 12th - ( correct me if I'm wrong Portnoy ) - maybe we could set the date and time. What do you say, Roger, Adriana, Gilberto, and other Ytsejammers that havent said anything about the subject yet? I myself have already been recruiting some DT fans that can become Ytsejammers in the future! And, ok, ok, you win. Let's go to some place to eat, but somebody please bring a stereo, I'd like to listen to some DT.:)
Take care Jammanoids
Daniel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:11:16 -0800 From: "Paul Gregory Humm" <humm@levy.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Bye, everybody Message-ID: <199808110212.TAA21838@baygate.bayarea.net>
In case anyone cares, I'm leaving the ytsejam. It's been fun, and I'll probably be back sometime.
I leave you with some words of wisdom for all of the bass players out there (see my rather long sig).
Paul
********************************************************************* "It is my opinion that there aren't enough THINKING bassists. . . . My concept is that we as bassists should be able to play completely alone and relay the essence of a song by the construction of our bass line alone. We don't need the keyboard to clarify the kind of chord. We don't need the drummer to clarify the rhythm. You should be able to swing and radiate energy all alone. Obviously, when we add a good piano player and drummer, it should be an added pleasure, but not a crutch. Don't lean on anyone. It is your responsibility to play harmonically and rhythmically simultaneously." -- Rufus Reid, "The Evolving Bassist" *********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:20:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Damon Fibraio <damon@shell.monmouth.com> To: Dream Theater Mailing list <ytsejam@ax.com>, Subject: email down Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980810221908.28050C-100000@shell.monmouth.com>
If anybody sent me personal mail, or mail directed to me on the list, my email account was down all day, thanks to incompetence at the billing and tech support departments of my ISP. Lots of messages probably bounced as a result. If you needed my input, please resend the message. Sorry.
-- Damon Fibraio, email damon@monmouth.com Keyboardist, vocalist, and looking for work "I can see much clearer, now I'm blind."--Dream Theater, Take The Time, Images and Words
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:29:54 -0400 From: Bruce Duesterhoeft <bduesterhoeft@enter.net> To: YtseGods <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: San Diego Jammers Message-ID: <35CFACA2.5FC7A5BB@enter.net>
Hey guys/gals.
I'm going to be out Labor Day weekend to sunny San Diego and was wondering if any of you knew of anything cool happening. I'll be out from Thursday til Monday.
Please let me know of anything - or of any cool places to chill (besides the Pacific Ocean!).
Email me privately.
Thanks,
Bruce Duesterhoeft
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:26:21 -0300 (EST) From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@linux.ime.usp.br> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980811001331.21178A-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Dr. Mosh wrote:
[Matt's post regarding users with MIME posts deleted] > Ok then smartass... you have 24 hours to post a descriptive, IN DEPTH > documentation on how to do this in Netscape Mail, Eudora, and Outlook, if > I don't see a post by you in 24 hours on how to do this, I will ban you > from ytsejam... sound fair? get to it :) > > -The Doc > > p.s. I'm not kidding
Let's not be that extreme, right Mosh?
I know of a very good description to this situation in Portuguese, but I don't know it's equivalent (it's an idiom and I don't even know if it has an equivalent). It's "sindrome do dono da bola", which basically means abuse of power. BTW, it's never excessive to remind you that if the list has only the administrators as users, it automatically looses its very purpose.
Perhaps MIME posts really annoy you. They do annoy me, but in a different level, from what I can see. I can, at least, tolerate them.
Patience is a virtue. And I'm not politically correct. I just feel that your wording was a bit excessive and that you perhaps were influenced by external problems.
Oh, just a reminder: unsubscribing a person from the list (or even banning him/her from the list) isn't a solution, that is, it's not a safe way to prevent a person from posting. It's very easy to talk SMTP and even easier to get a free e-mail on Geocities, Hotmail, USANet or other such places.
[]s, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:24:05 -0300 From: "Daniel Alexandre Bonatti" <dbonatti@sti.com.br> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, READ THIS Message-ID: <199808110327.AAA30630@patachou.sti.com.br>
On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Dr. Mosh wrote:
>Turn off your goddamn MIME and HTML.
Then Matt says : hrm. So you think that, by cussing at the problem, it will magically go away? Like, maybe the people who don't know they're in MIME or HTML because their readers can read it, or the ones who do know, but don't know how to chage it, will magically know they're annoying the PINE users and then miraculously figger out how to change it. trust me, yelling at a problem doesn't make it go away.
And I say: I agree with Matt here. I had MIME on until two of my messages behind, so ARE YOU CALLING ME A FUCKING IDIOT?????????????? FUCK YOU, STUPID MOSH!! This is the second time I recall you get mad at people for this SERIOUS subject. Wasnt that you who said to SKIP the messages that annoy you??
See you at IRC, and hope you're in a better mood, and think before you speak...
Daniel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:54:27 -0400 From: Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@home.com> To: YTSEJAM <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Bad songs on FII? Give 'em a chance! Message-ID: <35CFC073.83ECA35E@home.com>
> Vince French, while holding down the FFWD button, wrote: > >On another note, FII is the first DT album on which there is a song (two > >as a matter of fact) that I feel compelled to skip all the time. TAMP > >and AL are the two songs that I usually always skip. Just don't really > >enjoy them I guess. AL kinda sounds like a George Michael special. And
Then, good ol' FiveNgroK replied: > How can you learn to enjoy them if you skip them? Just a thought. > I wondered what the hell TAMP and AL were doing on a DT album when FII came > out, but I've come to like both songs after listening to them lots of times. > Repetition seems to work for me, but hey, this is all just my opinion on the > matter, and music is and always will be a very subjective one. > If you don't like the songs, no-one has the right to hold it against you.
Well, I pretty much agree with FiveNgroK on this one. I dig both TAMP and AL..... but I didn't care for them at first (I still don't really get into YNM - although I DON'T skip it). Hell, I didn't care for NM either at first...... but then it hit me. Also, LitS was probably my 5th favorite song off the album at first - now it's easily first. Let the stuff grow on you. *LOL* I'm just remembering that PMU was my favorite I&W song for probably 2 years! How things change!
For me, (at least on CD's by my upper echelon of bands like DT, Savatage, SX,) a song has to REALLY BLOW HARD for me to skip it. I kinda think of CD's like movies: The weaker songs may be like a slightly boring scene in the movie, but it's STILL PART OF THE STORY (of course, this is 10 times more true with concept CD's). Not every song is going to be the ass-kickin', wam-bam, head-splittin', eye-poppin' big orgasmic explosion of a climax (a la "Met. pt.1")
My favorite example of this is two Savatage CD's: Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan. When I first got them, I HATED two songs on each disc (the ones that are sung by Jon Oliva). But I stuck with it, and now I like them (and I also like Jon's voice now that I'm used to it {although Zak still rules more!}).
But ultimately, if you want to skip them that's your choice, and we won't interfere! :-)
- Joe D.
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 4166 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 18:09:13 EST